Jiren and Toppo CRT

[XXKINGXX69]

Toppo should probably have invulnerability because the aura around him erasing incoming attacks is something like a form of invulnerability. Or maybe power nullification, since it erases energy and acts as a type of attack negation ability.

Jiren should have resistance to time manipulation. Currently, he only has resistance to time stop, but I'm pretty sure he resisted the time manipulation in general, and his powers transcended time, allowing him to resist time manipulation. The "power transcending time" part might sound like flowery language to you, but I think that it has some meaning to it, and is basically a way of saying he resists time manipiulation. Hit also has time manipulation listed on his profile, and Jiren resisted that same ability so he should have it.

I also fail to see why he has "likely non physical interaction". He just straight up blocks Hits attacks which phase through things, that's all there is, so the "likely" part should be removed. Edit: Saman has brought up that Hit's phasing attack is meant to actually hit (pun intended) the enemy, so an enemy touching the non physical ki wave isn't NPI. He can interact with energy, is that enough for NPI?

Cosmic awareness and Spatial Manipulation: His profile also states he can sense ki in another pocket dimension. Should this not be cosmic awareness since its like interdimensional range of extrasensory perception? He can attack Hit while he's in another space and shattered Hit's parallel world.

Vibration Manipulation: Creates vibrations to one shot Maji Kayo

Forcefield Creation and Attack Reflection: This should be added as a scan to forcefield creation and attack reflection. It also launches attacks back, and it should be noted that its passive if he's meditating

Resistances for Jiren:

Heat and Explosion: Took no damage from ki landmines which made big explosions. Took a full power Final Flash without any damage

 

[Confluctor]

around him erasing incoming attacks is something like a form of invulnerability. Or maybe power nullification, since it erases energy and acts as a type of attack negation ability

That's just attack negation. So, yea, power null but worded as attack negation;

[[Power Null|Attack Negation]]

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Ok

 

[Vizer04]

I agree with Invulnerability for Toppo

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't think it should be listed neither as attack negation nor invulnerability, that's an EE aura that erases everything, from energy to physical matter, adding other definitions is redundant and even slightly wrong.

Jiren should have resistance to time manipulation. Currently, he only has resistance to time stop, but I'm pretty sure he resisted the time manipulation in general, and his powers transcended time, allowing him to resist time manipulation. The "power transcending time" part might sound like flowery language to you, but I think that it has some meaning to it, and is basically a way of saying he resists time manipiulation. Hit also has time manipulation listed on his profile, and Jiren resisted that same ability so he should have it.

We've only seen Jiren moving when Hit tried to stop him in time, which is why they said he "transcends time" , and we're not giving him resistance to time manip as a whole without seeing him doing such.
And Hit manipulates time in a number of ways, from stopping, to skipping and storing it, and Jiren has only resisted the former.

I also fail to see why he has "likely non physical interaction". He just straight up blocks Hits attacks which phase through things, that's all there is, so the "likely" part should be removed.

I think he shouldn't have it at all, Hit's attacks pass through things, but their ultimate purpose is to strike the opponent, for which they have to be somewhat physical. Them phasing through matter is to enhance their mobility, but it's not like Hit wanted to send that intangible projectile god knows where but Jiren used his NPI to prevent it.

Cosmic awareness and Spatial Manipulation: His profile also states he can sense ki in another pocket dimension. Should this not be cosmic awareness since its like interdimensional range of extrasensory perception? He can attack Hit while he's in another space and shattered Hit's parallel world.

Cosmic Awareness requires feeling many more things than just ki, Jiren's ESP only has Interdimensional range.
Spatial Manip is good.

Vibration Manipulation: Creates vibrations to one shot Maji Kayo

The scene is really quick, so I can't really tell if Jiren's punching the air to create a shockwave or he's actually hitting Maji Kayo.
Vibration Manip can be given only if the former case is the real one, as the rules state you don't get VM for just punching matter really hard.

Forcefield Creation and Attack Reflection: This should be added as a scan to forcefield creation and attack reflection. It also launches attacks back, and it should be noted that its passive if he's meditating

I don't think it should be attack reflection, because Jiren just used his barrier to push Sentaiman away.

Resistances for Jiren:

Heat and Explosion: Took no damage from ki landmines which made big explosions. Took a full power Final Flash without any damage

This is just durability, he resists those attacks because he's tough, not because of some special property.
This always happens in DB, even if ki attacks can vaporize the opponent, you just need to have higher dura to not get any damage.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Toppo should probably have invulnerability because the aura around him erasing incoming attacks is something like a form of invulnerability. Or maybe power nullification, since it erases energy and acts as a type of attack negation ability.

This is just EE in Aura form. His Aura is literally made up of Hakai energy, which erases things on contact.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I agree with the additional Forcefield Creation evidence. Everything else I disagree with FRA and for my own reasons.

In regards to the Maji Kayo case, right before Jiren actually strikes, we see a red steak slash across the screen and in the frames following that, we can see what appears to be a streak of energy for a split second. By now, we already know that Jiren can unleash energy fists, so this punch being one of those is not unlikely. It is also more likely to be just generic Air Manipulation, a Kiai, than Vibration Manipulation.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I don't think it should be listed neither as attack negation nor invulnerability, that's an EE aura that erases everything, from energy to physical matter, adding other definitions is redundant and even slightly wrong.



We've only seen Jiren moving when Hit tried to stop him in time, which is why they said he "transcends time" , and we're not giving him resistance to time manip as a whole without seeing him doing such.
And Hit manipulates time in a number of ways, from stopping, to skipping and storing it, and Jiren has only resisted the former.


I think he shouldn't have it at all, Hit's attacks pass through things, but their ultimate purpose is to strike the opponent, for which they have to be somewhat physical. Them phasing through matter is to enhance their mobility, but it's not like Hit wanted to send that intangible projectile god knows where but Jiren used his NPI to prevent it.


Cosmic Awareness requires feeling many more things than just ki, Jiren's ESP only has Interdimensional range.
Spatial Manip is good.


The scene is really quick, so I can't really tell if Jiren's punching the air to create a shockwave or he's actually hitting Maji Kayo.
Vibration Manip can be given only if the former case is the real one, as the rules state you don't get VM for just punching matter really hard.


I don't think it should be attack reflection, because Jiren just used his barrier to push Sentaiman away.


This is just durability, he resists those attacks because he's tough, not because of some special property.
This always happens in DB, even if ki attacks can vaporize the opponent, you just need to have higher dura to not get any damage.

Can you prove that having higher durability in DB means you can resist heat? And even if that was true, doesn't change the fact that he has enough durability to tank the heat of explosions

And I agree with the NPI removal, I'll edit the OP

 

[SamanPatou]

Can you prove that having higher durability in DB means you can resist heat? And even if that was true, doesn't change the fact that he has enough durability to tank the heat of explosions

No, I mean that having high dura allows you to resist ki attacks which constantly vaporize weaker opponents, and yet through all the DB canon you have characters dying or being threatened by high temperatures.
Even in Super itself, we have ssj blue Goku needing a a suit to not die at the center of the earth.

Ki attacks destroying the enemy to molecular level or beyond is just a property of ki itself and how stronger than its target it is, not the levels of heat it reaches.
For this reason ki explosions and beams are their own thing, not heat-based attacks.

And I agree with the NPI removal, I'll edit the OP

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No, I mean that having high dura allows you to resist ki attacks which constantly vaporize weaker opponents, and yet through all the DB canon you have characters dying or being threatened by high temperatures.
Even in Super itself, we have ssj blue Goku needing a a suit to not die at the center of the earth.

Ki attacks destroying the enemy to molecular level or beyond is just a property of ki itself and how stronger than its target it is, not the levels of heat it reaches.
For this reason ki explosions and beams are their own thing, not heat-based attacks.

The center of the Earth has a lot of heat, thats not a valid anti feat

Ki attacks destroying the enemy to molecular level or beyond is just a property of ki itself and how stronger than its target it is, not the levels of heat it reaches

Send scans of this

 

[SamanPatou]

The center of the Earth has a lot of heat, thats not a valid anti feat
Send scans of this

I have to give you the first thing, but we've always considered Ki as something separate from heat, and changing it requires a verse-wide revision, since all Ki users would get Temperature Manip and Resistance by default.

I think there are instances of characters being threatened by common or unspecified fire and hot things while still be able to withstand ki blasts that would normally vaporize weaker opponents, but as of now, we can't just let such change go through for Jiren without making a wider CRT for the entirety of Dragon Ball and how Ki works.

 

[Vietthai96]

guys, i'm going to revise Jiren profile after i done with DBH revision.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No, I mean that having high dura allows you to resist ki attacks which constantly vaporize weaker opponents, and yet through all the DB canon you have characters dying or being threatened by high temperatures.
Even in Super itself, we have ssj blue Goku needing a a suit to not die at the center of the earth.

Wasn't Goku thrown into lava in DBS Broly? Both he and Broly tanked it just fine

 

[Vizer04]

The Center of the Earth is much hotter than lava

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The Center of the Earth is much hotter than lava

That is true. But didn't Frieza tanked the core of Namek exploding on him?

 

[Vizer04]

Frieza's body is different than Saiyans, he can even survive in space. That should not scale to other characters besides Frieza.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Toppo

That's just Attack Negation via EE.

Jiren

The "power transcending time" stuff is just flowery language, but I think his resistance to Time Stop already covers what Hit does to him offensively.

NPI

No comment on this tbh

Cosmic awareness and Spatial Manipulation

Seems like it's just Interdimensional Range, but Spatial Manip for destroying the parallel world works.

Vibration Manipulation

I think it was the force of his fist flying through the air so this could work.

Forcefield Creation and Attack Reflection

Forcefield Creation is fine, Attack Reflection
no since like Saman mentioned, it was just his barrier pushing back against an attack.

Heat and Explosion

Just durability stuff.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

most of this crt is unneeded, toppo already has passive existence erasure for this exact same reasoning, for having an aura that erases things. just leave it.

jiren can have resistance to time manip, thats fine.
jiren resistance to explosion and heat mabip should not be granted off of the reasoning you presented, all the reason none of those affected him was because of high durability.
he does not need "vibration manip" either, he just punched him so powerfully that it created a gust of wind that knocked him out. if anything that would be limited air manip, but thats it. its just because of his sheer ap.
forcefield creation is fine, but not attack reflection, his forcefield was so powerful they couldn't reach him, thats it.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

So everyone so far agrees with attack negation and spatial manipulation

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I have to give you the first thing, but we've always considered Ki as something separate from heat, and changing it requires a verse-wide revision, since all Ki users would get Temperature Manip and Resistance by default.

I think there are instances of characters being threatened by common or unspecified fire and hot things while still be able to withstand ki blasts that would normally vaporize weaker opponents, but as of now, we can't just let such change go through for Jiren without making a wider CRT for the entirety of Dragon Ball and how Ki works.

I'll ignore it since you don't have scans yet

 

[SamanPatou]

You can't just ignore it, it would be a verse-wide revision that can't just go through via only one CRT.

I suggest you to make a separate CRT to discuss whether or no DB Ki reaches high temperatures by default.

 

[Vietthai96]

Stop stop, i'm revising Jiren profile with proper care. He is the part 3 in my DBS profile overhaul project

And no, i disagree with all except forcefield creation and possible resistance toward time manip

 

[Rez]

Disagree with everything expect for forcefield creation and a bit on the maybe side of the spectrum for space manip. And I think limited space manip would be better.

 

[Golden_Void]

Agree with the admin(s).

 

[God900]

Hard disagree with Time manip resistance. Only Time stop, as of now.

That's the only power he was shown to resist...

 

[StekFence]

That is true. But didn't Frieza tanked the core of Namek exploding on him?

Wasn’t he like, even more almost dead after that?

 

[StekFence]

Resistances for Jiren:

Heat and Explosion: Took no damage from ki landmines which made big explosions. Took a full power Final Flash without any damage

They don’t create heat to vaporize to my knowledge. It’s just they hit reallly hard. And as Jiren is leagues stronger than everyone else in the top, then of course he tanks the explosion.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wasn’t he like, even more almost dead after that?

Yes, but he did survived it without being killed by either his own attack or the heat from the core exploding on him. Besides, Frieza can surivive in extremely harsh conditions such as being cut in pieces (as seen in RoF when Sorbet just revived him after he was cut by Trunks), and being in the vaccum of space

 

[Golden_Void]

They don’t create heat to vaporize to my knowledge. It’s just they hit reallly hard. And as Jiren is leagues stronger than everyone else in the top, then of course he tanks the explosion.

Gohan and Piccolo specifically heated rocks with their key to mask their thermal signature if we're on the same page

 

[StekFence]

Interesting

 

[Vietthai96]

Actually i don't remember about manga, but in anime Gohan use ki blast to grill the chicken ribs. Mean Ki blast did produce heat. There is also some part where ki blast scorching the surface

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You can't just ignore it, it would be a verse-wide revision that can't just go through via only one CRT.

I suggest you to make a separate CRT to discuss whether or no DB Ki reaches high temperatures by default.

You make the CRT