(MOD needed) Jinwoo major ability additions

[PHANtomFELdway]

INTRODUCTION


Hello good morning/evening everyone, hope ya'll are doing good.Time for ability additions.thread is going to be pretty interesting,and probably have like 1000 pages,I had to have the layout and my wording redone to make it better ,so please inform me if some scans are missing or in the wrong places. This thread will require ALOT of explanation i believe. Because ALOT of the scans are context based and will need them.(please don’t crowd the thread. I would like to keep this to supporters if possible and not a bunch of random comments.(also mb phoenks, you read too slow,i couldn’t wait


TABLE OF CONTENT

So, here are the proposals:

PHANtomFELdway/abilities

vsbattles.fandom.com

Added changes

1.) added more context to death manip
2.)replaced immortality type 8 with type 9
3.)added abstract existence
4.)reworded resurrection to include AE reasoning
VOTES


Agree :
actuallyspaceman:
Agrees with everything except:
•Death Manipulation & The wording of the NEP section (The layers are fine)

• issue with NEP:
  • The current wording reads more like Void Manipulation rather than NEP

Finepoint: agrees with phoenks on all points.

vietthai96

• Agrees with everything except:
  • NEP Type 2
  • Transmutation
  • Madness Manipulation

Random-helper323: agrees on death manipulation and Nep (for jinwoo)

Disagree :

Neutral : Random-helper323: on everything else

 

[Phoenks]

Oh boy, time to go through all of this...

---

• Death Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation and Soul Manipulation (Magic Energy can cause those without it to experience a sleep disorder for eternity, a disease in which the target slowly falls deeper and deeper into sleep, until they cannot ever wake up as their body slowly deteriorates and dies out while their Soul is taken out of their body and drifts in the Sea of Afterlife)

I guess death manipulation + soul manipulation probably fine for Eternal Sleep Disorder. Ragnarok gives more context to it sending the soul straight into the afterlife, which is just death inducement + soul hax.

• Madness Manipulation (Type 3), Soul Destruction, Existence Erasure and Greater Death Manipulation (A <Monarch>'s power alone can drive one insane, induce death upon being sensed, or even outright erase them from existence entirely, including their very Souls)
  • Death Manipulation here is Layered because it can also affect those with Magic Energy, beings that should be able to resist Magic Energy's passive Death Inducement.

Iffy on this because the context is that the OG Shadow Monarch bestowed his power into people. They probably could not handle it due to the sheer amount of power rather than its properties having madness inducement and stuff. Death Manipulation prolly doesn't work there as a result.

• Corruption (Type 2) and Transmutation (Mana can corrupt one's Soul and turn their physical bodies into monsters, such as <Mist Burns>)

Disagree since only certain characters ever display this ability. Jinwoo never does this.

• Necromancy (A Monarch or a Sovereign cannot be revived as a shadow soldier as they don't simply die physically, their Spiritual body is erased from existence itself upon death)

That is fine.

• Time Stop (Can stop Time itself)

Yeah this is one of the abilities I forgot to add to him lol.

• Causality Manipulation, Subjective Reality, and Power Nullification (Can turn anything that happened to him, that is, actions themselves, into nothing, as if turning whatever happened into a dream that never happened in reality, and realizing nightmares into Reality)

This is probably fine. Damn that is some crazy stuff actually lol...

• Regeneration (High Godly (Nonexistence) - Ashborn came back from "Death" as a Ruler, where death for Monarchs and Rulers refers to the destruction of their nonexistent self, their <True Soul> that's left after their existing Soul gets reduced to nothingness, with said Soul representing your existence itself)
  • Explanation: The Shadow Monarch can bring back one's Nonexistent Soul from the Sea of Afterlife, essentially resurrecting their existent Soul too. However, if said Nonexistent Soul is destroyed, like what happens upon the death of Monarchs and Rulers, they cannot be resurrected.

This is so strange!

The scans are true though. Jinwoo can resurrect people who are reduced to nonexistent souls/nothingness in the Sea of the Afterlife, which is nonexistent.

I am not sure if it qualifies for High-Godly regeneration but it is definitely something for sure. I think it should be "Resurrection," rather than regeneration, though.

• Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2 [Aspect Type 2 {Concept Type 2}] - The Shadow Monarch is one with the Darkness of the Abyss, the <World of Nothingness> where even one's <True Soul>, their Nonexistent Self is reduced to <Nothingness>, lacking and transcending the concept of Death, which in turns dwarfs the World Tree, the Omnipresent Principle sustaining all existence across all dimensions)

Is fine but should be Aspects 1, 2, and 3 btw. His Soul/Mind (Spiritual Body) is nonexistent as well.

• Absorption, BFR and Nonexistent Erasure (Nonexistent Type 1; Can absorb things into himself, into the World of Nothingness and Eternal Rest that swallows everything, even one's <True Soul>, their Nonexistent Self)
  • The World of Eternal Rest is quite literally inside Jinwoo's body, or to be precise, he is Eternal Rest itself, and as such, anything or anyone absorbed into him is trapped there.

It is fine tbh.

• Conceptual Destruction (Type 1/2 - The World of Nothingness and Eternal Rest lacks the concept of Pain and Death, whereas Death (Sea of Death) dwarfs the World Tree, the fundamental principle sustaining all existence, all dimensions)
• Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1/2 - Rules over the Sea of Afterlife, governing death itself)

Type 1 is fine because of the World Tree stuff but I am iffy on him being able to use the abilities outside of the World of Eternal Rest.

• Type 4 (If the shadow monarch dies, their concept, such as Primordial Darkness, is inherited by someone else, in which they fuse with each one and become one)

Ashborn was only able to do this after many, many attempts but okay I guess.

• Type 5 (The Shadow Monarch and his army are the only beings that are truly immortal as the Shadow Monarch rules over and transcends Death, making it impossible for him and his army to die as he (their Monarch) embodies Eternal Rest, the World beyond Death)

I don't think it qualifies as Type 5. They are just immortal via endless resurrections and being able to come back from a nonexistent state.

• Type 6 (Monarchs and Rulers can possess another body upon physical death)

Sure ig but also limited because it will often just kill the person lol.

• Type 8 (Monarchs are born from God's Will, embodying some sort of Law, such as Antares embodying the Law of Destruction, and as long as God exists, his Laws will remain existing)

Disagree because God is already dead.

• Void Manipulation (The Shadow Monarch rules over Absolute Nothingness, the power to destroy anything and everything, and return it to its original state of nothingness)

This is true but the description is so lacking...


Type 2 (Baseline): The Shadow of the World Tree, a realm of "White Darkness", the opposite of the World Tree in its entirety, a state at the boundary of Nothingness where even the already 'Dead' Monarchs whose (True) Souls have been thoroughly reduced to 'Nothingness' can briefly exist/open their eyes. It is where one's <True Soul>, their Nonexistent Self, remains. It is also classified as a "Dream" that is also <Nothingness>.

Type 2 (1 Layer): The Sea of Afterlife/Death is a state of "Terrible Emptiness" that swallows up everything else within itself, where even the True Soul is reduced to 'emptiness', where even "Dreams" cannot exist. Even Antares, whose power can destroy all concepts, is stuck there without any escape,needing jinwoo to finally be set free.

Type 2 (2 Layers): Absolute Nothingness is the source of all other forms of "Nothingness" (Darkness) and to which they all return too, where anything and everything is destroyed and returned to their original, true state of nothingness; True Death.


Somehow this part is probably fine... though I wish to see what staff have to say about it.

 

[karo_senpaii]

The ressurection is mid godly unless you find a way to explain what you mean by true soul and what fundamental building block does it fall under i.e conceptual or information type 1

 

[Vietthai96]

do not have much time, since i need to sleep soon but i already saw some problems

• Death Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation and Soul Manipulation (Magic Energy can cause those without it to experience a sleep disorder for eternity, a disease in which the target slowly falls deeper and deeper into sleep, until they cannot ever wake up as their body slowly deteriorates and dies out while their Soul is taken out of their body and drifts in the Sea of Afterlife)

Alright, sleep manip seem fine, but why death manipulation???, like the victim just start getting dizzy, and fall into a sleep that could sleep for eternity and well, then slowly die out, then when they die, their soul is out and go to sea of afterlife, nothing here is death hax, the victim just sleep until they die, hell their life you be preserve if you are connected with a life support device. If they die, their soul if left and out of the body, that is pretty much a very common thing among fiction verse with soul element in it. character A died > his soul is out > to some special place that have soul. By this logic, i have soul hax and death hax for killing a guy, his soul go to afterlife, etc....

Madness Manipulation (Type 3), Soul Destruction, Existence Erasure and Greater Death Manipulation (A <Monarch>'s power alone can drive one insane, induce death upon being sensed, or even outright erase them from existence entirely, including their very Souls)

EE seem fine but
Madness hax: Why? nothing in the scan actually say it is madness, the fact that everyone just scare at this power being high, either their scare out of their shit or just died because his power was too high

No boby has been able to withstand the power of death

Yet non of them couldn't handlt my power and were either driven insane or just died

human bodies were incapable of withstanding god's power

immersive pressure crushed Behemoth

the presence Suho currently exuded overwhelmed the entire Primordial Forest

etc..

like, all important statements from scans just talking about someone power is too high, at best i could see overwhelming aura here

• Causality Manipulation (A Monarch's existence can twist even Causality itself)

Uhh, oh.......what is the context behind this??, one scan talking about twisted destiny, the second one is a screenshot of @MrTayman616 translated a random word and it is causality???

• Corruption (Type 2) and Transmutation (Mana can corrupt one's Soul and turn their physical bodies into monsters, such as <Mist Burns>)

I can see corruption but why transmutation?, corrupt someone into monster is just...corruption, also the manga pannel show the victim still retain their humanoid body doesn't really support your point

Unconventional Resistance to

• Necromancy (A Monarch or a Sovereign cannot be revived as a shadow soldier as they don't simply die physically, their Spiritual body is erased from existence itself upon death)

No, not, this isn't unconventional resistance, it is Necromancy weakness, like, Necromancy is just, control and revive dead bodies, and likely even soul, so if the body and soul is no more, you can't even use Necromancy, not a resistance, it is like saying a Robot have unconventional resistance to life hax since robot isn't living being

There for now

 

[Phoenks]

Alright, sleep manip seem fine, but why death manipulation???, like the victim just start getting dizzy, and fall into a sleep that could sleep for eternity and well, then slowly die out, then when they die, their soul is out and go to sea of afterlife, nothing here is death hax, the victim just sleep until they die, hell their life you be preserve if you are connected with a life support device. If they die, their soul if left and out of the body, that is pretty much a very common thing among fiction verse with soul element in it. character A died > his soul is out > to some special place that have soul. By this logic, i have soul hax and death hax for killing a guy, his soul go to afterlife, etc....

They are dead because it sends the soul to the afterlife.

They are just "asleep" because the machine keeps their physical body alive with magic.

No, not, this isn't unconventional resistance, it is Necromancy weakness, like, Necromancy is just, control and revive dead bodies, and likely even soul, so if the body and soul is no more, you can't even use Necromancy, not a resistance, it is like saying a Robot have unconventional resistance to life hax since robot isn't living being

Resistance because their souls can't be accessed by Jinwoo's necromancy, since their souls are reduced to a state that is more nonexistent than nothingness. Jinwoo is capable of bringing back people from nothingness, but not the Monarchs

 

[Phoenks]

The ressurection is mid godly unless you find a way to explain what you mean by true soul and what fundamental building block does it fall under i.e conceptual or information type 1

Argument is that "nonexistent soul/spiritual body" is a more fundamental/deeper "aspect" than the "existent soul/spiritual body"

I am uncertain it works though.

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

do not have much time, since i need to sleep soon but i already saw some problems

Alright, sleep manip seem fine, but why death manipulation???, like the victim just start getting dizzy, and fall into a sleep that could sleep for eternity and well, then slowly die out, then when they die, their soul is out and go to sea of afterlife, nothing here is death hax, the victim just sleep until they die, hell their life you be preserve if you are connected with a life support device. If they die, their soul if left and out of the body, that is pretty much a very common thing among fiction verse with soul element in it. character A died > his soul is out > to some special place that have soul. By this logic, i have soul hax and death hax for killing a guy, his soul go to afterlife, etc....


EE seem fine but
Madness hax: Why? nothing in the scan actually say it is madness, the fact that everyone just scare at this power being high, either their scare out of their shit or just died because his power was too high






like, all important statements from scans just talking about someone power is too high, at best i could see overwhelming aura here



Uhh, oh.......what is the context behind this??, one scan talking about twisted destiny, the second one is a screenshot of @MrTayman616 translated a random word and it is causality???


I can see corruption but why transmutation?, corrupt someone into monster is just...corruption, also the manga pannel show the victim still retain their humanoid body doesn't really support your point


No, not, this isn't unconventional resistance, it is Necromancy weakness, like, Necromancy is just, control and revive dead bodies, and likely even soul, so if the body and soul is no more, you can't even use Necromancy, not a resistance, it is like saying a Robot have unconventional resistance to life hax since robot isn't living being

There for now

So og series it did say destiny but with grabbing the raws and mrtay translating them it actually translated to causality and not destiny
Anyways I feel some of the scans could have added quite a bit more but i do agree with this for the most part

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Oh boy, time to go through all of this...

---

• Death Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation and Soul Manipulation (Magic Energy can cause those without it to experience a sleep disorder for eternity, a disease in which the target slowly falls deeper and deeper into sleep, until they cannot ever wake up as their body slowly deteriorates and dies out while their Soul is taken out of their body and drifts in the Sea of Afterlife)

I guess death manipulation + soul manipulation probably fine for Eternal Sleep Disorder. Ragnarok gives more context to it sending the soul straight into the afterlife, which is just death inducement + soul hax.

• Madness Manipulation (Type 3), Soul Destruction, Existence Erasure and Greater Death Manipulation (A <Monarch>'s power alone can drive one insane, induce death upon being sensed, or even outright erase them from existence entirely, including their very Souls)
  • Death Manipulation here is Layered because it can also affect those with Magic Energy, beings that should be able to resist Magic Energy's passive Death Inducement.

Iffy on this because the context is that the OG Shadow Monarch bestowed his power into people. They probably could not handle it due to the sheer amount of power rather than its properties having madness inducement and stuff. Death Manipulation prolly doesn't work there as a result.

This would still be death manipulation,also other scans show it is a general thing, they can’t contain their powers so they just die.

• Corruption (Type 2) and Transmutation (Mana can corrupt one's Soul and turn their physical bodies into monsters, such as <Mist Burns>)

Disagree since only certain characters ever display this ability. Jinwoo never does this.

Jinwoo upscales from the people who can do this. And there is literally no reason for him to do it since he can just turn them into shadows instead

• Necromancy (A Monarch or a Sovereign cannot be revived as a shadow soldier as they don't simply die physically, their Spiritual body is erased from existence itself upon death)

That is fine.

• Time Stop (Can stop Time itself)

Yeah this is one of the abilities I forgot to add to him lol.

• Causality Manipulation, Subjective Reality, and Power Nullification (Can turn anything that happened to him, that is, actions themselves, into nothing, as if turning whatever happened into a dream that never happened in reality, and realizing nightmares into Reality)

This is probably fine. Damn that is some crazy stuff actually lol...

• Regeneration (High Godly (Nonexistence) - Ashborn came back from "Death" as a Ruler, where death for Monarchs and Rulers refers to the destruction of their nonexistent self, their <True Soul> that's left after their existing Soul gets reduced to nothingness, with said Soul representing your existence itself)
  • Explanation: The Shadow Monarch can bring back one's Nonexistent Soul from the Sea of Afterlife, essentially resurrecting their existent Soul too. However, if said Nonexistent Soul is destroyed, like what happens upon the death of Monarchs and Rulers, they cannot be resurrected.

This is so strange!

The scans are true though. Jinwoo can resurrect people who are reduced to nonexistent souls/nothingness in the Sea of the Afterlife, which is nonexistent.

I am not sure if it qualifies for High-Godly regeneration but it is definitely something for sure. I think it should be "Resurrection," rather than regeneration, though.

• Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2 [Aspect Type 2 {Concept Type 2}] - The Shadow Monarch is one with the Darkness of the Abyss, the <World of Nothingness> where even one's <True Soul>, their Nonexistent Self is reduced to <Nothingness>, lacking and transcending the concept of Death, which in turns dwarfs the World Tree, the Omnipresent Principle sustaining all existence across all dimensions)

Is fine but should be Aspects 1, 2, and 3 btw. His Soul/Mind (Spiritual Body) is nonexistent as well.

• Absorption, BFR and Nonexistent Erasure (Nonexistent Type 1; Can absorb things into himself, into the World of Nothingness and Eternal Rest that swallows everything, even one's <True Soul>, their Nonexistent Self)
  • The World of Eternal Rest is quite literally inside Jinwoo's body, or to be precise, he is Eternal Rest itself, and as such, anything or anyone absorbed into him is trapped there.

It is fine tbh.

• Conceptual Destruction (Type 1/2 - The World of Nothingness and Eternal Rest lacks the concept of Pain and Death, whereas Death (Sea of Death) dwarfs the World Tree, the fundamental principle sustaining all existence, all dimensions)
• Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1/2 - Rules over the Sea of Afterlife, governing death itself)

Type 1 is fine because of the World Tree stuff but I am iffy on him being able to use the abilities outside of the World of Eternal Rest.

Would probably have it due to being able to resist itarim passively (CM) outside of eternal rest

• Type 4 (If the shadow monarch dies, their concept, such as Primordial Darkness, is inherited by someone else, in which they fuse with each one and become one)

Ashborn was only able to do this after many, many attempts but okay I guess.

Ashborn is just different,and he wasn’t dead,entirely different circumstances

• Type 5 (The Shadow Monarch and his army are the only beings that are truly immortal as the Shadow Monarch rules over and transcends Death, making it impossible for him and his army to die as he (their Monarch) embodies Eternal Rest, the World beyond Death)

I don't think it qualifies as Type 5. They are just immortal via endless resurrections and being able to come back from a nonexistent state.

Idk how you agreed with him being eternal rest . The literal world that lacks the concept of death,and the many scans that say he is free,beyond,transcends,controls death and it isn’t type 5 somehow. Also would get type 5 due to nonexistent nature regardless due to it being compared to never being born. : Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed.with it being impossible to be killed besides like EE and monarchs regen neg

• Type 6 (Monarchs and Rulers can possess another body upon physical death)

Sure ig but also limited because it will often just kill the person lol.

Yeah I put that in my first wording but lokey forgot to re-add it

• Type 8 (Monarchs are born from God's Will, embodying some sort of Law, such as Antares embodying the Law of Destruction, and as long as God exists, his Laws will remain existing)

Disagree because God is already dead.

I don’t know if that really matters in a vs match or not. Plenty of dead characters have profiles.

• Void Manipulation (The Shadow Monarch rules over Absolute Nothingness, the power to destroy anything and everything, and return it to its original state of nothingness)

This is true but the description is so lacking...

Yeah need to add passive part and stuff due to reducing attacks to nothing

Type 2 (Baseline): The Shadow of the World Tree, a realm of "White Darkness", the opposite of the World Tree in its entirety, a state at the boundary of Nothingness where even the already 'Dead' Monarchs whose (True) Souls have been thoroughly reduced to 'Nothingness' can briefly exist/open their eyes. It is where one's <True Soul>, their Nonexistent Self, remains. It is also classified as a "Dream" that is also <Nothingness>.

Type 2 (1 Layer): The Sea of Afterlife/Death is a state of "Terrible Emptiness" that swallows up everything else within itself, where even the True Soul is reduced to 'emptiness', where even "Dreams" cannot exist. Even Antares, whose power can destroy all concepts, is stuck there without any escape,needing jinwoo to finally be set free.

Type 2 (2 Layers): Absolute Nothingness is the source of all other forms of "Nothingness" (Darkness) and to which they all return too, where anything and everything is destroyed and returned to their original, true state of nothingness; True Death.


Somehow this part is probably fine... though I wish to see what staff have to say about it.

 

[Vietthai96]

They are dead because it sends the soul to the afterlife.

that still isn't death hax either, cause the soul is out of the body, make them "dead"

So og series it did say destiny but with grabbing the raws and mrtay translating them it actually translated to causality and not destiny

so mistranslated localization???

 

[Phoenks]

This would still be death manipulation,also other scans show it is a general thing, they can’t contain their powers so they just die.

That's not death manipulation though; it is just them dying from inability to house his power. Not a direct inducement of death.

Jinwoo upscales from the people who can do this. And there is literally no reason for him to do it since he can just turn them into shadows instead

He never showcases the ability and this isn't a universal ability either... there is no reason for him to get this.

Ashborn is just different,and he wasn’t dead,entirely different circumstances

Jinwoo has never actually done it. Only ashborn has. He is all we have to go off of.

Idk how you agreed with him being eternal rest . The literal world that lacks the concept of death,and the many scans that say he is free,beyond,transcends,controls death and it isn’t type 5 somehow. Also would get type 5 due to nonexistent nature regardless due to it being compared to never being born. : Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed.with it being impossible to be killed besides like EE and monarchs regen neg

I mean ok ig if Type 5 can be achieved with just NEP / Incorporeality stuff.

I don’t know if that really matters in a vs match or not. Plenty of dead characters have profiles.

Point is that God is dead so he doesn't have the ability in the first place.

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

that still isn't death hax either, cause the soul is out of the body, make them "dead"


so mistranslated localization???

Ya i would know their where multiple in og series I think i personally have grabbed every raw scan that felt bad on kakou and sent it to fledway or just asked to get it translated on here

 

[Phoenks]

that still isn't death hax either, cause the soul is out of the body, make them "dead"

I mean if killing someone via "sending their souls straight to the afterlife" isn't death hax then... it is just soul hax or what lol?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I mean if killing someone via "sending their souls straight to the afterlife" isn't death hax then... it is just soul hax or what lol?

Soul BFR.

 

[Phoenks]

Soul BFR.

"The afterlife" is quite literally just... you being dead

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

that still isn't death hax either, cause the soul is out of the body, make them "dead"

No. Eternal sleep literally causes them to die outright if there is no life machine that keeps them alive. Eternal sleep isn’t meant to be sleep. It is death of the body and soul as long as there is no life machine

That's not death manipulation though; it is just them dying from inability to house his power. Not a direct inducement of death.

I was thinkin it is the same thing as eternal sleep just to a more extreme degree.since they just die the moment their magic touches them instead of it happening overtime like other people with weaker magic

He never showcases the ability and this isn't a universal ability either... there is no reason for him to get this.

It doesn’t need to be a universal ability since it is a property gods can do,with jinwoo outscaling. It is purely based on their nature which Jinwoo also has ,but sure I can just change the reasoning to knowing magic that corrupts the soul (demonic specters)

Jinwoo has never actually done it. Only ashborn has. He is all we have to go off of.

Jinwoo was able to start the process with Suho inheriting the dragon monarchs position,and other monarchs have done it so we have them.

Point is that God is dead so he doesn't have the ability in the first place.

Will have to see what mods think. I am sure a character being dead isn’t relevant to a vs battle since it would take peak versions.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

do not have much time, since i need to sleep soon but i already saw some problems

Alright, sleep manip seem fine, but why death manipulation???, like the victim just start getting dizzy, and fall into a sleep that could sleep for eternity and well, then slowly die out, then when they die, their soul is out and go to sea of afterlife, nothing here is death hax, the victim just sleep until they die, hell their life you be preserve if you are connected with a life support device. If they die, their soul if left and out of the body, that is pretty much a very common thing among fiction verse with soul element in it. character A died > his soul is out > to some special place that have soul. By this logic, i have soul hax and death hax for killing a guy, his soul go to afterlife, etc....


EE seem fine but
Madness hax: Why? nothing in the scan actually say it is madness, the fact that everyone just scare at this power being high, either their scare out of their shit or just died because his power was too high

They literally go insane and can’t think of anything,mind is wiped clean, maybe argue it is just fear manip but doubtful

like, all important statements from scans just talking about someone power is too high, at best i could see overwhelming aura here



Uhh, oh.......what is the context behind this??, one scan talking about twisted destiny, the second one is a screenshot of @MrTayman616 translated a random word and it is causality???

I got him to translate raws. I don’t think you fully read that scan

I can see corruption but why transmutation?, corrupt someone into monster is just...corruption, also the manga pannel show the victim still retain their humanoid body doesn't really support your point

The surroundings where changed.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

regarding the eternal sleep.
How would you argue against the fact that the people who studied it saw how the Life machines are there to keep pumping them life energy because their life energy is being sucked out?
The Life Machine keeps them alive by making sure it does not completely deplete. meaning they aren't dead. simply slowly dying.
We have cases where there are people who slowly succumb into it rather that outright die as you claimed

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

regarding the eternal sleep.
How would you argue against the fact that the people who studied it saw how the Life machines are there to keep pumping them life energy because their life energy is being sucked out?
The Life Machine keeps them alive by making sure it does not completely deplete. meaning they aren't dead. simply slowly dying.
We have cases where there are people who slowly succumb into it rather that outright die as you claimed

This isn’t hard to understand, once they reach the final sleep stage,they die unless put on life support, just like if you pulled the plug irl that is what would happen

 

[Vietthai96]

No. Eternal sleep literally causes them to die outright if there is no life machine that keeps them alive. Eternal sleep isn’t meant to be sleep. It is death of the body and soul as long as there is no life machine

1. Dude, if they are dead, how can they still be keeping alive with life support, also the scan said that the same magic energy that can causs Eternal Sleep can be used for life support to keep the sleep victim alive

2. Eternal sleel isn't meant to be sleep, dude, the scan directly said the victim will experience illness with dizzy and slowly falling into sleep. Also if you claimed it isn't meant to be sleep, why put sleep hax to the ability?

They literally go insane and can’t think of anything,mind is wiped clean, maybe argue it is just fear manip but doubtful

Scan only said they goes insane, from sensing strong power, what?, i already posted many of the important statements within the scan you used, literally they scare of high power?, did you just focus on the word "insane" and ignore the rest of the texts?

I got him to translate raws. I don’t think you fully read that scan

dude, i read the scan, and one scan show an entire paragraph in English, the next "scan" is a screenshot of @MrTayman616 translated a korean text that is very out of nowhere, like, you expect people will understand something when there are two disconnected scans that are completely different, heck one of the scan is a screenshot of someone translated a word

I mean if killing someone via "sending their souls straight to the afterlife" isn't death hax then... it is just soul hax or what lol?

Bro, killing peolle via indirect way do not get you death hax, send soul to the afterlife isn't death hax, that just soul hax, you "punch" the soul out of the body, the character died

"The afterlife" is quite literally just... you being dead

Dude what?, no one denied they are dead, problem is the method of achieving such a thing

The surroundings where changed.

That isn't transmutation either, it could be well within the effect of the corruption, changing the enviroment is very broad thing that could be put in many different abilities

 

[Phoenks]

1. Dude, if they are dead, how can they still be keeping alive with life support, also the scan said that the same magic energy that can causs Eternal Sleep can be used for life support to keep the sleep victim alive

2. Eternal sleel isn't meant to be sleep, dude, the scan directly said the victim will experience illness with dizzy and slowly falling into sleep. Also if you claimed it isn't meant to be sleep, why put sleep hax to the ability?



Scan only said they goes insane, from sensing strong power, what?, i already posted many of the important statements within the scan you used, literally they scare of high power?, did you just focus on the word "insane" and ignore the rest of the texts?



dude, i read the scan, and one scan show an entire paragraph in English, the next "scan" is a screenshot of @MrTayman616 translated a korean text that is very out of nowhere, like, you expect people will understand something when there are two disconnected scans that are completely different, heck one of the scan is a screenshot of someone translated a word


Bro, killing peolle via indirect way do not get you death hax, send soul to the afterlife isn't death hax, that just soul hax, you "punch" the soul out of the body, the character died


Dude what?, no one denied they are dead, problem is the method of achieving such a thing


That isn't transmutation either, it could be well within the effect of the corruption, changing the enviroment is very broad thing that could be put in many different abilities

If you want it to be soul hax I don't really care, but the effect of magic is just that people die, and thus their soul ends up in the afterlife, while their physical body is maintained by magical machines.

The only reason they are physically alive is because of magic. Without the presence of said machines, their physical body wouldn't be "alive" in any capacity either.

Regardless I don't really feel strongly about it anyway.

I'm mostly more curious on the other abilities.

 

[Vietthai96]

If you want it to be soul hax I don't really care, but the effect of magic is just that people die, and thus their soul ends up in the afterlife, while their physical body is maintained by magical machines.

Wait what?, bro?, i remember you said magic send people soul to the sea of afterlife, now you said magic cause people to die and their soul end up in Sea of Afterlife. Scan said victim fell ill, get dizzy and then go to sleep, the the victim slowly die out, when they die their soul drifting in the sea of afterlife

I mean, what is the correct version?

Also it is not like i want soul hax, but that how thing is

 

[Phoenks]

Correct version:

Sleep disease causes victims to fall into a slumber because their soul drifts away into the Afterlife.

This "slumber" would usually just result in death, because the soul is gone from the body, but the body is maintained by magic thus the person is "asleep."

1. Soul is removed from body. What is crucial to note is that this is just the process of "death" in solo leveling. That the soul ends up in the afterlife (the soul is killed). This is why it is comparable to Misburns, which "kill the soul."
2. Body is rendered in a paralyzed-state resembling brain-death because they no longer have a soul in their body.
3. Without life support (magical machines), it is impossible to survive this. The "disease" only resembles sleeping because of said machines.

 

[AsterReal]

After reading everything, I agree with Phoenks' reasoning regarding the OP.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Correct version:

Sleep disease causes victims to fall into a slumber because their soul drifts away into the Afterlife.

This "slumber" would usually just result in death, because the soul is gone from the body, but the body is maintained by magic thus the person is "asleep."

1. Soul is removed from body. What is crucial to note is that this is just the process of "death" in solo leveling. That the soul ends up in the afterlife (the soul is killed). This is why it is comparable to Misburns, which "kill the soul."
2. Body is rendered in a paralyzed-state resembling brain-death because they no longer have a soul in their body.
3. Without life support (magical machines), it is impossible to survive this. The "disease" only resembles sleeping because of said machines.

That's literally how soul hax works in most fiction. You rip someone's soul and they ******* die lol

The machine is just there maintaining bodily functions to preserve the body for as long as possible

 

[Phoenks]

That's literally how soul hax works in most fiction. You rip someone's soul and they ******* die lol

The machine is just there maintaining bodily functions to preserve the body for as long as possible

The soul only goes to the afterlife when the soul itself is killed, hence the comparison to mistburns (similarity is that the soul is killed). In the afterlife, the soul is reduced to a nonexistent state (this is the death of a soul in Solo Leveling. it is how death works as a mechanic in the verse, basically)

So to me it is basically soul-based death hax. But I am open to other interpretations.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, that just soul destruction then, since the soul is reduced to nothing

 

[Phoenks]

Well, that just soul destruction then, since the soul is reduced to nothing

If you want to treat it that way then sure ig. Though for me I thought it was more that magic kills the soul, and then the mechanics of the solo leveling universe reduce that dead soul to nothingness.

But I mean, attributing the entire process to the ability is fine I guess. It would be Soul Destruction for all magic in Solo Leveling lol.

 

[Phoenks]

General question for the High-Godly, though.

Assuming that the Soul = Mind (Phantom should have the scans to prove this, cause it is pretty obvious I think), does being able to resurrect yourself from a the destruction of an already nonexistent form of your soul qualify?

Like, it is pretty obvious that the "nonexistent soul" is a deeper aspect than the existent soul.

 

[OMsHanT69]

Damn.
Also Regarding the conceptual Destruction stuff, it's been a long time since i read sl but didn't the absolute being make the world of eternal rest.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

General question for the High-Godly, though.

Assuming that the Soul = Mind (Phantom should have the scans to prove this, cause it is pretty obvious I think), does being able to resurrect yourself from a the destruction of an already nonexistent form of your soul qualify?

Like, it is pretty obvious that the "nonexistent soul" is a deeper aspect than the existent soul.

tag this guy @Theglassman12

pretty sure that still counts for Mid-Godly?

 

[Vietthai96]

General question for the High-Godly, though.

Assuming that the Soul = Mind (Phantom should have the scans to prove this, cause it is pretty obvious I think), does being able to resurrect yourself from a the destruction of an already nonexistent form of your soul qualify?

Like, it is pretty obvious that the "nonexistent soul" is a deeper aspect than the existent soul.

No, it is still Mid-Godly, since High-Godly require either you history get erased too, or anything belong to info 2, Concept type 1 and 2, Plot stuff. Literally, Mid Godly require your body and soul get reduced to Nonexistent and then regen in order to have Mid-Godly, regen from your soul still existing is just Low-Godly, the soul can exist in a nonexistent state is just a feat for soul, that soul can exist in such a state

If you want to treat it that way then sure ig. Though for me I thought it was more that magic kills the soul, and then the mechanics of the solo leveling universe reduce that dead soul to nothingness.

But I mean, attributing the entire process to the ability is fine I guess. It would be Soul Destruction for all magic in Solo Leveling lol.

I mean yeah, kill soul, destroy soul, erase soul all belong to application of soul hax. Like if you kill a concept, you get concept hax instead of death hax

Well, i will evaluate other abilities when i go back home, using phone is not the best thing lol

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

General question for the High-Godly, though.

Assuming that the Soul = Mind (Phantom should have the scans to prove this, cause it is pretty obvious I think), does being able to resurrect yourself from a the destruction of an already nonexistent form of your soul qualify?

Like, it is pretty obvious that the "nonexistent soul" is a deeper aspect than the existent soul.

Pretty much what the 2 above me have said, NEP is not a valid metaphysical aspect, so it does not qualify for High--godly.

 

[Phoenks]

Why is an NEP aspect which exists when the soul is destroyed not a valid metaphysical aspect? What?

 

[AsterReal]

Why is an NEP aspect which exists when the soul is destroyed not a valid metaphysical aspect? What?

No idea. I also don't understand where they get the idea that to qualify as High-Godly, it has to regenerate from a type 2 plot/concept/information deletion. The regeneration page says that any fundamental aspect counts as long as it can be shown that the deleted character cannot live without it.

 

[Phoenks]

I'll just break this down further I guess.

The soul is used synonymously with the mind and these spiritual planes they go to is the realm of souls/minds. Using this just to get the basic premise that the soul in Solo Leveling counts for both soul and mind aspects. If it helps, we also know that these souls contain memories and people can think/speak to each other while operating as souls and whatnot. I think this is pretty obvious. Should also be noted that Monarchs are usually "spiritual bodies" which is just a non-physical soul form. (Stated to be the "essence of your being")

So, from that alone, we can conclude from this scan that when the soul is destroyed, it counts as the soul/mind being destroyed.

This much by itself already grants Jinwoo Mid-Godly Resurrection capabilities. It is stated in that same scan that he can pull souls back from nothingness. This also applies to himself.

Now let's go further. That "nonexistent soul" that exists in the Sea of the Afterlife counts for NEP Type 1 (Aspects 1 and 3), since it is a state where the soul is nothingness (non-existent).

This is the "true soul" that Jinwoo mentions, which is explicitly separate from the other soul mentioned in the same sentence. It is very clearly a deeper aspect than the soul.

It is explained that everything about a Monarch vanishes when they die. Alluding to the fact that even the "true soul" is destroyed (When a spiritual body dies it is destroyed. "dying" already means becoming nonexistent, as we established. it is then destroyed in that nonexistent state as well). This is why Jinwoo is unable to resurrect them despite him possessing Mid-Godly resurrection capabilities.

Monarchs exist in a further state of nonexistence when they die. They are in these realms that are described as nonexistence itself (Beyond the dead means it would be more nonexistent than the already nonexistent souls).

Despite this, the Original Shadow Monarch, "Ashborn," was able to ARISE himself and come back from that level of destruction. And Sung Jinwoo possesses all the abilities of Ashborn. They are even considered the same person.


My Conclusion: the "True Soul" should be considered a deeper aspect than the normal body/soul/mind, and thus resurrecting from its destruction should count for High-Godly.

Furthermore, there is also this interesting bit: You can presume that Jinwoo can resurrect people who are killed by the World Devourer, which erases you from memory. That would count for a history aspect.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I don't see why this is NEP 2 instead of NEP 1

 

[Vietthai96]

Why is an NEP aspect which exists when the soul is destroyed not a valid metaphysical aspect? What?

Do you know that metaphysical aspect also include law, causality, fate?, not jusy info 2, concept and plot, yet only when you get erased at info 2, concept, plot level then regen back considered to be High-Godly, and history isn't metaphysical either

What you just described is just soul can "exist" in a nonexistent state, being "deeper" or somesort doesn't make it metaphysical, and even if it was metaphysical, then it still need to be one of the three info 2, concept or plot at least to qualify

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I agree sleep disorder probably shouldn't have Death Manipulation, since it's a result of the soul leaving the body.

Not sure about the Death Manipulation for monarchs since it seems like a side-effect of their power destroying them, not directly inducing death.

As for the Regen, it would be Mid-Godly. From what I'm understanding, you have the Mind, Body, and Soul. The soul, when it goes to the Sea of the Afterlife, is reduced to nothing. It seems like the True Soul is separate from this, but at the same time, the True Soul is stated to be in the Sea of the Afterlife as well, making me think they're the same, just one referring to the existent version, and the other to the non-existent.

Either way, you would need the True Soul to be erased, which I'm not really seeing based on the scans.

Not seeing NEP Type 2, since this is talking about layered Void Manipulation, not the state of nonexistence of the realm itself. A NEP Realm being able to reduce something that's already nothing, to further nothingness, is a property of the realm, but not its existence.

Disagree with the Type 8 since God is dead.

 

[Phoenks]

I agree sleep disorder probably shouldn't have Death Manipulation, since it's a result of the soul leaving the body.

Not sure about the Death Manipulation for monarchs since it seems like a side-effect of their power destroying them, not directly inducing death.

As for the Regen, it would be Mid-Godly. From what I'm understanding, you have the Mind, Body, and Soul. The soul, when it goes to the Sea of the Afterlife, is reduced to nothing. It seems like the True Soul is separate from this, but at the same time, the True Soul is stated to be in the Sea of the Afterlife as well, making me think they're the same, just one referring to the existent version, and the other to the non-existent.

Either way, you would need the True Soul to be erased, which I'm not really seeing based on the scans.

Not seeing NEP Type 2, since this is talking about layered Void Manipulation, not the state of nonexistence of the realm itself. A NEP Realm being able to reduce something that's already nothing, to further nothingness, is a property of the realm, but not its existence.

Disagree with the Type 8 since God is dead.

A minor misunderstanding on your part.

The "true soul" is the soul in the sea of the afterlife, which is nonexistent (left after the normal soul is destroyed). The "soul" is the existent one.

So yeah, they are separate. "True Soul" is the after life soul, "soul" is the existent soul. Jinwoo establishes this.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

So essentially, normal Existence Erasure of Mind, Body, and Soul, and even layered erasure, erasing their non-existence, wouldn't be able to kill them, but it would still be Mid-Godly.