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Jin Mori vs Ryomen Sukuna (7-3-0)

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Also Maki manages to hear Sukuna chant for the WCS slash and dodge it, would she have Reli reaction speeds or?
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(Ignore the stupid red arrows and circles lmao)
 
Also Maki manages to hear Sukuna chant for the WCS slash and dodge it, would she have Reli reaction speeds or?

(Ignore the stupid red arrows and circles lmao)
She heard it right before it was fired. The rest of the chant was covered up by the noise Sukuna made with debris. That said, she unironically could. We already treat her analytical prediction/precog as scaling far above her own speed IIRC. Kashimo heard the entire chant and barely dodged it (and has relativistic reactions for it)
 
All he does is point his hand and chant. He's not throwing up a bunch of hand signs
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You are right that his reaction speed justification is wonky. But this is just reaction speed. He points and speaks.
Yeah honestly I hate to say it but that really isn't reaction speed.
Chanting multiple words, turning around, and shooting out an attack is far more than what classifies as "reaction speed".

And honestly the profiles seem aware of this. Not only does Sukunas profile mention him fighting Gojo in a completely normal h2h interaction as reaction speed but it's not even on accident as Gojo also scales to the relativistic value based on fighting Sukuna h2h. So the profiles acknowledge this is their combat speed and just index it as reaction speed, probably because the profile maker didn't actually understand the difference between the combat and reaction speed.
 
Yeah honestly I hate to say it but that really isn't reaction speed.
Chanting multiple words, turning around, and shooting out an attack is far more than what classifies as "reaction speed".
He doesn't turn around tho. He was already facing the attack. He just pointed at it and chanted.

And vs wiki doesn't consider talking as combat speed. Especially when in JJK it's stated the characters can talk at compressed timeframes faster than they can fight.
 
I know, I'm not saying they don't.

And Mori has accepted layered fear manipulation.

The only one whining about either of them was you.
and that shit aint gonna do nothing serious
The moment Sukuna tries waving the hand sign and reciting the chant Mori is throwing his ass to space too lmao
Oh yeah right, how about you prove that lmao
Sukuna just gonna stand there ig? Not to mention good luck bfring ALL of 10S, who are invisible and will not stand still either
Maho just slices Mori in 2 frame 1 too btw
Yeah he just does it 99% of the time.
He either throws a slash which Mori nearly no-sells because of his 10x higher durability or dodges because of aimdodging, and Sukuna is never hitting another slash again.
"Never hitting another slash" Sukuna just goes for WCS if his slash gets no selled, or Maho one shots
Ignoring the obvious problem with eyes of truth helping a lot, Mori is ridiculously intelligent. He could decipher and counter abilities like sound based ignition point manipulation after seeing them used once even without his special eyes.

I think seeing an evil wizard chant a spell and point towards him would be more than enough to think "hmm maybe I should dodge".
Okay. so Sukuna just makes a BV to do the same thing he did to Gojo

Cant aim dodge something that has no indication of it coming, which is also much faster than Mori

Im voting Sukuna
 
He doesn't turn around tho. He was already facing the attack. He just pointed at it and chanted.
Same thing.
That's just blatantly not reaction speed and the profile acknowledges it.
And vs wiki doesn't consider talking as combat speed. Especially when in JJK it's stated the characters can talk at compressed timeframes faster than they can fight.
I'm sorry but if taking a quick rap break mid attack, then extending your attack and launching your own attack isn't considered combat speed than what feat would be?

Again the profile further proves my point. In the very same feat Sukuna lands a hit on Kashimo who supposedly has relativistic reactions. How if Sukuna's combat speed isn't that high? It should be statued by Kashimos reactions.
He can also land kicks and punches as well as block kicks and punches from Gojo who can do the same. That's literally impossible if either or both of them has/have thousands of times higher reaction speed than combat speed.
 
Same thing.
That's just blatantly not reaction speed and the profile acknowledges it.
It's one quick movement. It'd be less movement than bending backwards to narrowly avoid an attack.
Again the profile further proves my point. In the very same feat Sukuna lands a hit on Kashimo who supposedly has relativistic reactions. How if Sukuna's combat speed isn't that high? It should be statued by Kashimos reactions.
He can also land kicks and punches as well as block kicks and punches from Gojo who can do the same. That's literally impossible if either or both of them has/have thousands of times higher reaction speed than combat speed.
Yeah, because the profile has some things that are wrong. I already agreed combating Gojo shouldn't be under there. That doesn't mean EVERYTHING there was a mistake. The person who made the crt to add it even stated it should only be reaction speed due to it being one quick movement.

I guess we can get a mod or open a qna, but I'm very certain talking has never been considered combat speed (Especially since again, in JJK, characters can chant in a compressed timeframe that's faster than they can fight. So we know chants > their combat speed already). Because talking in fiction is a free action 99% of the time.
 
and that shit aint gonna do nothing serious
Never said it would. Well it probably disables any shadow not named Mahoraga and slows Raga down until it adapts but yeah, nothing significant.
Oh yeah right, how about you prove that lmao
Sukuna just gonna stand there ig?
What do you want me to prove? That Mori isn't just going to watch Sukuna constantly resummon Mahoraga like a moron?
Not to mention good luck bfring ALL of 10S, who are invisible and will not stand still either
Maho just slices Mori in 2 frame 1 too btw
Mori can see invisible shenanigans like spirits and whatnot and 10S are getting KOed by Mori's fear hax so those are useless.
And Mahoraga isn't landing a hit on Mori with that ginormous skill gap.
"Never hitting another slash" Sukuna just goes for WCS if his slash gets no selled, or Maho one shots
Just for it to get dodged.
And that's assuming Mori doesn't just rip Sukunas hands off before he could pull it off since we're talking about a one shot AP gap with class Z LS behind it.
Okay. so Sukuna just makes a BV to do the same thing, he did to Gojo

Cant aim dodge something that has no indication of it coming, which is also much faster than Mori
You very much can. Fodders like mid-series Mira could predict where and when her enemy is going to teleport just off of smell alone.
And Moris clone with the fiery red eyes could read the exact location where his opponent is going to teleport in a giant open field with absolutely no indicators.

You very much can predict an attack with no visual indicators by judging the opponents intentions, physical state, actions, etc, and GoH characters do it relatively often.

Tho it wouldn't be necessary anyway because Sukuna isn't lasting long enough for it. He actively starts with h2h combat where he'd get skill-checked and one tapped.
 
It's one quick movement. It'd be less movement than bending backwards to narrowly avoid an attack.
Except for the whole talking part and releasing an attack part.
Yeah, because the profile has some things that are wrong. I already agreed combating Gojo shouldn't be under there. That doesn't mean EVERYTHING there was a mistake. The person who made the crt to add it even stated it should only be reaction speed due to it being one quick movement.

I guess we can get a mod or open a qna, but I'm very certain talking has never been considered combat speed (Especially since again, in JJK, characters can chant in a compressed timeframe that's faster than they can fight. So we know chants > their combat speed already). Because talking in fiction is a free action 99% of the time.
Okay just a quick question then.
If Sukuna has 15000x faster reaction speed not only in the "can narrowly duck an attack" style but a "can talk, move, and shoot attacks" style, how did Gojo hit him? How did Gojo react to him? Only logical explanation seems to be that he scales to his supposed reaction speed.

Then how did Sukuna react to and hit Gojo? Only logical explanation is again that he scales to him.

In other words how is Sukuna at the same time relative to people who are relative to his reaction speed but 15000x slower than his reaction speed?
 
If Sukuna has 15000x faster reaction speed not only in the "can narrowly duck an attack" style but a "can talk, move, and shoot attacks" style, how did Gojo hit him? How did Gojo react to him? Only logical explanation seems to be that he scales to his supposed reaction speed.
Because all the reaction does is allow Sukuna to do one quick reaction. He could dodge one attack from Gojo, but would not be able to keep this up
 
Because all the reaction does is allow Sukuna to do one quick reaction. He could dodge one attack from Gojo, but would not be able to keep this up
If that's how we treat it then it doesn't really help him here.
Sukuna tries going for h2h combat, dodges once, and the second punch goes straight through his skull
 
disables any shadow not named Mahoraga and slows Raga down until it adapts but yeah
assuming shadows can feel fear
What do you want me to prove? That Mori isn't just going to watch Sukuna constantly resummon Mahoraga like a moron?
that he can stop Sukuna from summoning Maho back
sukuna just needs a simple handsign
Mori can see invisible shenanigans like spirits and whatnot and 10S are getting KOed by Mori's fear hax so those are useless.
Okay he can see shadows, good
why would 10S get fear haxxed lol? they're all just summons who act on what Sukuna commands them to
They arent shown to feel fear, they're like weapons
And Mahoraga isn't landing a hit on Mori with that ginormous skill gap.
Maho's slash is layered the same as Sukuna's, as not even Gojo could react to it/see it, so skill doesnt matter
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People fr just be saying "skill bro" like it justifies anything
Just for it to get dodged.
And that's assuming Mori doesn't just rip Sukunas hands off before he could pull it off since we're talking about a one shot AP gap with class Z LS behind it.
Sukuna has Mid regen with inferior but comparable speed of regen to Gojo, he can regen such injuries in a flash
You very much can. Fodders like mid-series Mira could predict where and when her enemy is going to teleport just off of smell alone.
And Moris clone with the fiery red eyes could read the exact location where his opponent is going to teleport in a giant open field with absolutely no indicators.
Scans?
And Gojo, who knew Sukuna's kit prior to that, who also has six eyes, couldnt see it coming
Predicting where someone tps isnt the same as dodging a no indication invisible slash
Tho it wouldn't be necessary anyway because Sukuna isn't lasting long enough for it. He actively starts with h2h combat where he'd get skill-checked and one tapped.
Sukuna does not actively start with h2h
and does Mori insta go for the kill? ripping limbs or something will just make Sukuna gain distance summon 10S and do wcs
 
assuming shadows can feel fear
We don't assume characters have immunity to abilities they weren't affected by them.

But that aside their invulnerability comes directly from their similarities with cursed spirits and we see curses like Mahiti and Jogo very much do feel emotions and Mahito was very visibly afraid of Yuji. So by the same logic why they have invulnerability they also feel fear.
that he can stop Sukuna from summoning Maho back
sukuna just needs a simple handsign
Given Sukuna starts off with cqc and Mori is primarily a cqc he's going to be constantly in-range.
And the second Sukuna isn't focusing entirely on avoiding his attacks Mori one-taps him. Trying to perform "a simple handsign" is a suicide move.
Okay he can see shadows, good
why would 10S get fear haxxed lol? they're all just summons who act on what Sukuna commands them to
They arent shown to feel fear, they're like weapons
They're sentient beings "similar to curses" which do feel fear.
Maho's slash is layered the same as Sukuna's, as not even Gojo could react to it/see it, so skill doesnt matter
"Not even Gojo" as if Gojos prediction skills were anywhere near your average GOH fodder
People fr just be saying "skill bro" like it justifies anything
People fr be lying because I didn't "just say skill bro" I gave you an explanation and mentioned multiple feats for why he'd just predict it.
Sukuna has Mid regen with inferior but comparable speed of regen to Gojo, he can regen such injuries in a flash
Yeah and in the same flash Sukuna gets punched/kicked through the face
Here for the Mira thing and here the clone thing. It's mentioned in his Jin profile
And Gojo, who knew Sukuna's kit prior to that, who also has six eyes, couldnt see it coming
Predicting where someone tps isnt the same as dodging a no indication invisible slash
What's the difference?
Both teleportation predictions and invisible slashes have no visual indicator and can only be predicted by the users intentions.
Sukuna does not actively start with h2h
Pretty sure Sukuna started most of his fights with h2h combat.
and does Mori insta go for the kill?
Depends on the opponent and situation. If he's fighting an innocent civilian forced to fight him he wouldn't.
But if he's fighting his actual ops then their head won't be in one piece for much longer
ripping limbs or something will just make Sukuna gain distance summon 10S and do wcs
Yeah but Mori isn't just going watch Sukuna run away. I mean why would he, Mori's entire kit here is martial art based except for Yeoui and even that he prefers to use at close ranges if possible.
also bro where are you taking this 10x gap from
isnt this first key Mori?
Yeah who's 6.37 megatons while Sukuna is 0.55 megatons or about 11.6x weaker. Martial arts are a 3x boost which makes it around 35x. And his transformation is another >48x amp which makes it around 550x difference directly and with martial arts about a 1667x difference if Sukuna takes a direct blow.

So while Sukuna can OH with WCS, Mori can OH Sukuna too just slightly more conveniently
 
We don't assume characters have immunity to abilities they weren't affected by them.
They dont have to be immune
they will just be the same as Sukuna
But that aside their invulnerability comes directly from their similarities with cursed spirits and we see curses like Mahiti and Jogo very much do feel emotions and Mahito was very visibly afraid of Yuji. So by the same logic why they have invulnerability they also feel fear.
Why didnt they feel fear from Gojo, and no they dont, they will jump in to die instantly no hesitation if Sukuna commands them to
They cant get fear haxxed if Sukuna isnt
Given Sukuna starts off with cqc
He doesnt
He starts with dismantle against Ryu
He starts with dismantles against Yuji and Higuruma
He starts with dismantles against Kusakabe
He starts with dismantles against Mahoraga
He starts with 10S against Yorozu
He technically started with dismantles against Jogo
He disposed of Mahito with dismantle
Sukuna doesnt always start with cqc
Mori is primarily a cqc he's going to be constantly in-range.
Even if he started with it, does not mean he will continue to engage in it as he would be getting skill stomped
Sukuna can air jump away to gain distance
And the second Sukuna isn't focusing entirely on avoiding his attacks Mori one-taps him. Trying to perform "a simple handsign" is a suicide move.
in advance respond to this and the below
Yeah who's 6.37 megatons while Sukuna is 0.55 megatons or about 11.6x weaker
he is literally barely stronger than Sukuna pre AD
796kt vs 550+kt
the difference is pretty small
like what are you talking about
They're sentient beings "similar to curses" which do feel fear.
They're not truly sentient, they obey what Sukuna orders them to do
Why would suddenly only Maho and Sukuna be able to fight but not the rest. They're a technique.
"Not even Gojo" as if Gojos prediction skills were anywhere near your average GOH fodder
Its about's Gojo's perception, he can see and sense cursed energy on atomic lvl, can perceive stuff kms away, can understand people's techniques instantly, can see ce sparks, can perceive a year in a second and all that stuff and still didnt manage to dodge WCS or sense it
and again WCS is also much faster than Mori here
People fr be lying because I didn't "just say skill bro" I gave you an explanation and mentioned multiple feats for why he'd just predict it.
In that section you didnt explain tho
Yeah and in the same flash Sukuna gets punched/kicked through the face
dodges with superior reactions
Here for the Mira thing
Bro that's not predicting TPs, that's smelling the guy once he tps and then reacting to him lmaooo
and here the clone thing.
that's more impressive, but still predicting where someone will appear isnt exactly the same as dodging an invisible slash with no indication of it being cast
What's the difference?
Both teleportation predictions and invisible slashes have no visual indicator and can only be predicted by the users intentions.
You can assume where the person wants to tp and you know when they do it since they visually disappear
However knowing when Sukuna decides to do the BV is harder to read
and that's all while Mori could be fighting 10S
or even be inside of the domain
Pretty sure Sukuna started most of his fights with h2h combat.
already addressed that but i also wanna say Sukuna touching mori means he can cleave him into pieces, cleave adjusts to dura + slicing attacks massively upscale from Sukuna's physicals to begin with
Mori would only be like 1.4 times stronger at the beginning
Yeah but Mori isn't just going watch Sukuna run away. I mean why would he, Mori's entire kit here is martial art based except for Yeoui and even that he prefers to use at close ranges if possible.
He wouldnt ofc, but Sukuna can start spamming walls of dismantles to prevent that from happening
Martial arts are a 3x boost which makes it around 35x. And his transformation is another >48x amp which makes it around 550x difference directly and with martial arts about a 1667x difference if Sukuna takes a direct blow.
are any of those multipliers accepted? im not seeing shi on his profile
 
They dont have to be immune
they will just be the same as Sukuna
Why would they be? Last time I checked they don't share his abilities nor are they just flesh puppets that Sukuna transfers his mind to.
Why didnt they feel fear from Gojo,
Because Gojos presence doesn't break your mind and knock you unconscious, Mori's does.

Ngl I don't understand why would them not bring scared of Gojo mean anything here.
He doesnt
He starts with dismantle against Ryu
He starts with dismantles against Yuji and Higuruma
He starts with dismantles against Kusakabe
He starts with dismantles against Mahoraga
He starts with 10S against Yorozu
He technically started with dismantles against Jogo
He disposed of Mahito with dismantle
Sukuna doesnt always start with cqc
Yeah he disposes of fodders with dismantles but that's not really the case against actually strong opponents unless he's dick measuring with them (like throwing fireballs at Jogo). But most importantly, even if he doesn't go directly into h2h he doesn't just lurk away from the opponent spamming long range attacks. He likes to actually engage with them, especially when they're strong (hence why he disposed of fodder by just using dismantle but he actually engaged people like Mahoraga and Gojo h2h) and primarily use cqc themselves.

And reading previous threads even spamming shadows doesn't seem to be entirely in character (I'm admittedly not super knowledgeable on jjk past like halfway through so I had to go read the other threads)
Even if he started with it, does not mean he will continue to engage in it as he would be getting skill stomped
Problem is the h2h combat ends as soon as it starts because of the stat gap.
Plus Mori targets weak points to further increase the effectiveness of his attacks.
Sukuna can air jump away to gain distance
And Mori can jump towards him or just grab and hold him to stop that since he has a massive LS advantage.
in advance respond to this and the below

he is literally barely stronger than Sukuna pre AD
796kt vs 550+kt
the difference is pretty small
like what are you talking about
SBA assumes the strongest version of a character. Mori here is only restricted to his first key not his first value so he's at his post-AD value.

Also just logically thinking about it, this key covers around 40 chapters. The first value covers like the first 3 and the post-AD covers the entire rest of the pre-training key.
They're not truly sentient, they obey what Sukuna orders them to do
Doesn't make them not sentient.
Isn't the whole process of getting a Shikigami under your control first beating them which is why Sukuna fought Maho without any master? Meaning they clearly have some level of independence.
Its about's Gojo's perception, he can see and sense cursed energy on atomic lvl, can perceive stuff kms away, can understand people's techniques instantly, can see ce sparks, can perceive a year in a second and all that stuff and still didnt manage to dodge WCS or sense it
Yeah but none of that has anything to do with his ability to predict it. If his senses can't detect it, it doesn't matter how good or bad they are, it won't help predicting them.
and again WCS is also much faster than Mori here
Yeah he'd have to aim dodge it.
In that section you didnt explain tho
Maybe not in that specific comment (ngl I'm too lazy to go check) but I explained it in this thread already.
dodges with superior reactions
Just to get hit with another kick, a giant shockwave, or just Yeoui expanding dozens of kilometers.
Hell Mori can just pull off one of these if Sukuna dodging becomes a problem he can just trap him inside of a vortex, blast him with a large scale air burst that's strong enough to take down people capable of tanking Mori's 3x multipliers, or just create a huge air vortex around himself which he's even capable of shooting forward and using to absorb attacks.
Bro that's not predicting TPs, that's smelling the guy once he tps and then reacting to him lmaooo
No? Myoong (the teleporter) didn't just teleport to a spot and stand still lol. After Mira hit him the first time we see he spammed teleportation all around her and Mira just predicted when he teleported in front of hr and timed her punch accordingly.

Also besides Myoong being one of the most 4 best soldiers in the entire army, we even see at the start that he purposely uses teleportation to hide in her blind spot, hitting Mira in one place and when she turns hitting her in her new blind spot.
So to say he teleported in front of her, stood still without attacking, and then acted surprised that she saw him, is just a very weird and obviously wrong way to interpret the scene.
that's more impressive, but still predicting where someone will appear isnt exactly the same as dodging an invisible slash with no indication of it being cast
I'd say it's actually way more impressive. Not identical ofc but similar enough and more impressive.

Mori was fighting Manjin (the teleportation guy) on a huge destroyed island and Manjin teleported to a random location mid-air. There was literally no indication where he's going to teleport with pretty much countless different options across a massive area.

Meanwhile the slashes have a very limited set of targets - those being Mori's body. Predicting where a slash lands on your body should be far easier than predicting where Manjin was going to teleport.
You can assume where the person wants to tp and you know when they do it since they visually disappear
However knowing when Sukuna decides to do the BV is harder to read
and that's all while Mori could be fighting 10S
or even be inside of the domain
Like I said the fight isn't even going to last long enough for Sukuna to think about doing that.
already addressed that but i also wanna say Sukuna touching mori means he can cleave him into pieces, cleave adjusts to dura
Yeah but touching Mori is pretty much impossible since Mori is going to be reading Sukunas moves like an open book.

Also Mori is a damn cockroach in survivability. Even if Sukuna were to land a hit and say, cut off his arm or something, unless he decapitates Mori or Go/Jo's him with it, he's not going to stop him. Sukuna could cut off both of his arms and legs just for Mori to come back to bite him. Literally, I'm not exaggerating.
He wouldnt ofc, but Sukuna can start spamming walls of dismantles to prevent that from happening
This seems like something that'd only work if Mori already hit Sukuna, Sukuna survived and realized he must avoid h2h combat, and managed to run away.
None of that is going to happen because Sukuna is inevitably going to try h2h combat before using WCSs (and normal dismantles are not hurting Mori) and the moment that happens Mori wins.

Sukuna would either have to be bloodlusted or have prior knowledge to avoid h2h combat.
are any of those multipliers accepted? im not seeing shi on his profile
All of them are actually. The >48x is on the verse page and the 3x multiplier for general renewal and 3SK are accepted here.

I mentioned this earlier at the start of the thread but I'm almost done working on a CRT that applies the multipliers properly to the profiles. I didn't do it right away because they affect a huge amount of characters and required multiple CRTs (at least 2 for multipliers and 1 for inverse scaling, plus i wasn't sure if I'm not going to find some additional forgotten multiplier), so I did them one by one with the final one almost ready to be posted.
 
Holy Bible but I read all of it... I wake up once every five years but I'm not seeing Sukuna win this. My vote goes towards Mori
 
Can Mori kill Sukuna before a domain pop or Gojo level World Slash? Sukuna isn't above responding to legit threats in kind (prepped for Gojo and began pretty early with a domain after the HP) so I'd wager one of those two come out pretty early. I've seen Mori apparently has the better skills/stats and can send people to the moon, what are his other notable hax?
 
Can Mori kill Sukuna before a domain pop or Gojo level World Slash? Sukuna isn't above responding to legit threats in kind (prepped for Gojo and began pretty early with a domain after the HP) so I'd wager one of those two come out pretty early.
That's the issue, all of that hinges on Sukuna entering a hand-to-hand interaction with Mori and survivng. Mori doesn't possess CE which would likely stur and excite Sukuna like Maki did and draw him into combat. Sukuna as it is highly prefers CQC combat and I don't think he's ever started an encounter without a short h2h exchange.

If Sukuna does indeed engage Mori in straight hands, he's going to get cliffed in skill, allowing Mori to completely overwhelm him. Mori has techniques that directly target the brain too so if he does any of those it'll disrupt Sukuna's CT/RCT usage and this is a positive outcome for Sukuna, in CQC encounter, Sukuna might genuinely just straight up die, all it takes is a fatal blow to the head and Sukuna is gone and given the AP/Durability difference...
 
I've seen Mori apparently has the better skills/stats and can send people to the moon, what are his other notable hax?
As for hax, Mori doesn't have too many notable ones outside of his Information Analysis, 2 Layered Fear Manipulation, Accelerated Development, Instinctive Reaction, Limited Dura Neg, BFR and I guess Analytical Prediction. There are some other ones that I'm leaving out I think but here are some
 
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