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Sundowner VS Jasper
Jasper is 142 kilotons
Sundowner is 121 kilotons
Speed is equal
Jasper is 142 kilotons
Sundowner is 121 kilotons
Speed is equal
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Jasper VS Sundowner
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This match is actually pretty close. Both have tons of combat experience and should be on par with each other skill-wise. Both of them are also pretty generic in terms of combat capability and don't really have any weapons or skills that would tip the fight in either's favour. I guess you can say Sundowner has the shield with explosives, but Jasper doesn't cut and can just power through them with her spin attack. Dura negging Jasper won't do much unless he aims for her nose but that's so tiny and not something one aims for from the get-go. Poofing her won't kill her as she can just reform herself within seconds.
I'm going to wait for more supporters before I come to a conclusion.
I'm going to wait for more supporters before I come to a conclusion.
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Powering through Sundowner's shields is basically completely impossible for Raiden so I'm not sure she could just do that since they're even in AP, and using a spin attack on it will only cause Sundowner to counter it with another explosion, not that just pushing them away to deal with them considering they can get back into position pretty quickly.
I don't know SU too well but unless it's way higher than I think I would say he has an edge in skill considering he does still scale to Raiden, and skill scaling is something I think is generally overdone in this wiki but just being anywhere near him puts Sundowner pretty damn high.
How durable is her nose? If it's frail it might just get caught in one of the shield's explosions and get destroyed.
I don't know SU too well but unless it's way higher than I think I would say he has an edge in skill considering he does still scale to Raiden, and skill scaling is something I think is generally overdone in this wiki but just being anywhere near him puts Sundowner pretty damn high.
How durable is her nose? If it's frail it might just get caught in one of the shield's explosions and get destroyed.
Spinoirr
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"I don't know SU too well but unless it's way higher than I think I would say he has an edge in skill considering he does still scale to Raiden, and skill scaling is something I think is generally overdone in this wiki but just being anywhere near him puts Sundowner pretty damn high."
Jasper has several thousand years of active combat experience, was scientifically analyzed by Peridot to be the ultimate quartz soldier in terms of strength and skill (quartz soldiers being gems who are literally created with the sole purpose of being ground troops with exceedingly high combat skill), and casually stomped Garnet, Amethyst, and Pearl in their initial encounter (All three of whom have millennia of combat experience in their own right, with Garnet having taken on several thousand quartz soldiers alongside Bismuth and Pearl being one of the most if not the most skilled fighters in the verse, scaling above people like Connie who under Pearl's training became skilled enough to take on Gems on her own despite being just a normal human with just a fraction of Pearl's combat knowledge.)
"How durable is her nose? If it's frail it might just get caught in one of the shield's explosions and get destroyed."
Its the same durability as Jasper.
Jasper has several thousand years of active combat experience, was scientifically analyzed by Peridot to be the ultimate quartz soldier in terms of strength and skill (quartz soldiers being gems who are literally created with the sole purpose of being ground troops with exceedingly high combat skill), and casually stomped Garnet, Amethyst, and Pearl in their initial encounter (All three of whom have millennia of combat experience in their own right, with Garnet having taken on several thousand quartz soldiers alongside Bismuth and Pearl being one of the most if not the most skilled fighters in the verse, scaling above people like Connie who under Pearl's training became skilled enough to take on Gems on her own despite being just a normal human with just a fraction of Pearl's combat knowledge.)
"How durable is her nose? If it's frail it might just get caught in one of the shield's explosions and get destroyed."
Its the same durability as Jasper.
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Jasper probably skill stomps.
Yes, Sundowner can definitely bisect and shit with sub-atomic durability negation but High-Mid covers it and Sundowner is easily the least skilled of the Winds of Destruction.
Yes, Sundowner can definitely bisect and shit with sub-atomic durability negation but High-Mid covers it and Sundowner is easily the least skilled of the Winds of Destruction.
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Not really, the least skilled Wind is Khamsin, and nothing tells us that Sundowner is any less skilled than Mistral or Monsoon beyond subjective impressions that have no place here (In fact he's probably way better than Mistal considering Raiden unlocks Ripper Mode, which signifies a big skill jump, after her fight). "Muh millennia" means very little when the actual feats are less impressive than MG's. Such as:
- Raiden in his absolute weakest incarnation in MGS2 went from never having even held a sword to managing to defeat a master swordsman in like, an hour or so with basically no training, hell a good amount of that time was spent with him forced to use other weapons instead.
- Even as a child soldier Raiden (I guess that is his weakest incarnation lol) had god knows how many kills under his belt and was basically a legend.
- Ocelot in MGS3 (At his absolute youngest and most inexperienced) manages to learn CQC in a couple of hours, and manages to fight evenly with Snake who previously stomped him despite the fact that Snake himself had went from being stomped by The Boss to defeating her. Note that CQC is a martial art that is composed of knowledge from OTHER martial arts which you all would typically need to learn before attempting it.
- Vamp, who MGS4 Raiden possibly a little more skilled than (And MGS4 Raiden is way worse than MGR Raiden), can easily read body movements to predict his enemy's attacks and intercept them
- Gray Fox, Naked Snake and Solid Snake all pull off something similar.
- Enemies who are literal fodder to anyone are all supersoldiers with combat implanted in their genetic memory and superhuman senses
What tiers are these guys compared to her? Cause if she just ap-stomps them it means nothing. Actually, did Jasper even skill-stomp those three or was it a stats thing?
Eh, do those have any feats?
Alright, so a couple of attacks would damage it. Swords are useless here but Sundowner has small AOE with his explosions so he'd definitely hit it accidentally a buncha times as the fight goes on, considering Jasper literally has no way around it. Nevermind that if he catches
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I completely forgot that Khamsin is a Wind of Destruction lol
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It's ok, I'm pretty sure the Winds of Destruction did too
Spinoirr
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"Muh millennia" means very little when the actual feats are less impressive than MG's. Such as:"
basically everything here applies to Connie as well. She went from having never even held a sword before to being able to put Gems with millennia of experience on the defensive in a few weeks, and by the end of the series she had defeated dozens of gems on her own despite being a child.
"Vamp, who MGS4 Raiden possibly a little more skilled than (And MGS4 Raiden is way worse than MGR Raiden), can easily read body movements to predict his enemy's attacks and intercept them"
Garnet has passive precog that lets her see the potential outcome of every situation she's in at all times and Jasper stomped her in their initial encounter and matched her for an extended fight in their rematch.
"Enemies who are literal fodder to anyone are all supersoldiers with combat implanted in their genetic memory and superhuman senses"
So are quartz soldiers
"What tiers are these guys compared to her? Cause if she just ap-stomps them it means nothing. Actually, did Jasper even skill-stomp those three or was it a stats thing?"
High 7-C, theyre the same tier as her, they beat them through skill. Jasper and Garnet are equal in tiers and Pearl has taken on and beaten opponents far stronger than herself and won via skill (ie. Sugilite, the 6-C berserk fusion of Garnet and Amethyst).
"Swords are useless here but Sundowner has small AOE with his explosions so he'd definitely hit it accidentally a buncha times as the fight goes on, considering Jasper literally has no way around it. Nevermind that if he catches"
Jasper keeps her gemstone garded behind an armored mask when she fights that she can repair or reform if its damaged in combat.
basically everything here applies to Connie as well. She went from having never even held a sword before to being able to put Gems with millennia of experience on the defensive in a few weeks, and by the end of the series she had defeated dozens of gems on her own despite being a child.
"Vamp, who MGS4 Raiden possibly a little more skilled than (And MGS4 Raiden is way worse than MGR Raiden), can easily read body movements to predict his enemy's attacks and intercept them"
Garnet has passive precog that lets her see the potential outcome of every situation she's in at all times and Jasper stomped her in their initial encounter and matched her for an extended fight in their rematch.
"Enemies who are literal fodder to anyone are all supersoldiers with combat implanted in their genetic memory and superhuman senses"
So are quartz soldiers
"What tiers are these guys compared to her? Cause if she just ap-stomps them it means nothing. Actually, did Jasper even skill-stomp those three or was it a stats thing?"
High 7-C, theyre the same tier as her, they beat them through skill. Jasper and Garnet are equal in tiers and Pearl has taken on and beaten opponents far stronger than herself and won via skill (ie. Sugilite, the 6-C berserk fusion of Garnet and Amethyst).
"Swords are useless here but Sundowner has small AOE with his explosions so he'd definitely hit it accidentally a buncha times as the fight goes on, considering Jasper literally has no way around it. Nevermind that if he catches"
Jasper keeps her gemstone garded behind an armored mask when she fights that she can repair or reform if its damaged in combat.
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A few weeks of training is completely different from at most one hour of combat.
"The ability does take some time to use, as she has been shown in a thinking position when activating it. During that time, someone can alter the future, as seen in "Marble Madness", when Steven ruined the plan to learn about Peridot by going up to her while Garnet was still using future vision."
How the **** is it passive if it takes some time to use. Also it seems to have a shitton of weaknesses.
Are they tho? Being manifactured doesn't mean they're as effective. And experience in an army, even millennia of it, are completely different from 1v1 combat
Equal in tiers =/= equal in power and Jasper's profile seems to treat her as stronger than either.
Skill doesn't let you bridge that huge of a gap, so I have to assume there were other factors at play?
Honestly that might just clue in Sundowner that the head is the weak point considering it's the only part that's armored
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Spinoirr
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"How the **** is it passive if it takes some time to use. Also it seems to have a shitton of weaknesses."
The wording on for that is shockingly bad. Using it doesnt take time, what takes time is her looking deeper into potential futures for details to judge which possible futures are most probable. She's flat out said multiple times throughout the series that she can see what everyone is doing at all times via her future vision.
"Are they tho? Being manifactured doesn't mean they're as effective. And experience in an army, even millennia of it, are completely different from 1v1 combat"
They are, yes. Quartz soldiers are hard-coded to be skilled cqc fighters (literally coded in the sense of Gems as they function like AI)
"Equal in tiers =/= equal in power and Jasper's profile seems to treat her as stronger than either."
They are equal in power yes. Quartz soldiers were shown matching Garnet in physical power in flashback fights of the rebellion and were depicted as being strong enough to oneshot Pearl just like Garnet can.
"Skill doesn't let you bridge that huge of a gap, so I have to assume there were other factors at play?"
Not really, she took a ton of hits from Sugilite and then beat her by redirecting her own weapon back at her, but said in the fight itself that she wasnt strong enough to beat her physically.
"Honestly that might just clue in Sundowner that the head is the weak point considering it's the only part that's armored"
Fair, but again she can remake the helmet at will if he destroys it
Also, another point to consider, would his dura neg even work on Jasper? It works by disrupting the bonds between atoms but Gems don't technically have atoms as their bodies are made of hard light.
The wording on for that is shockingly bad. Using it doesnt take time, what takes time is her looking deeper into potential futures for details to judge which possible futures are most probable. She's flat out said multiple times throughout the series that she can see what everyone is doing at all times via her future vision.
"Are they tho? Being manifactured doesn't mean they're as effective. And experience in an army, even millennia of it, are completely different from 1v1 combat"
They are, yes. Quartz soldiers are hard-coded to be skilled cqc fighters (literally coded in the sense of Gems as they function like AI)
"Equal in tiers =/= equal in power and Jasper's profile seems to treat her as stronger than either."
They are equal in power yes. Quartz soldiers were shown matching Garnet in physical power in flashback fights of the rebellion and were depicted as being strong enough to oneshot Pearl just like Garnet can.
"Skill doesn't let you bridge that huge of a gap, so I have to assume there were other factors at play?"
Not really, she took a ton of hits from Sugilite and then beat her by redirecting her own weapon back at her, but said in the fight itself that she wasnt strong enough to beat her physically.
"Honestly that might just clue in Sundowner that the head is the weak point considering it's the only part that's armored"
Fair, but again she can remake the helmet at will if he destroys it
Also, another point to consider, would his dura neg even work on Jasper? It works by disrupting the bonds between atoms but Gems don't technically have atoms as their bodies are made of hard light.
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That also sounds worthless. Even if you see a billion futures at once, not being able to tell which is more probable makes your precog worth jack shit. Meanwhile MG info analysis is done purely through skill and actually lets you know what your opponent will do.
To be precise, how did Jasper beat her?
Yea but MGS CQC is literally beyond real martial arts to the point of stomping them, so Gene soldiers have much better base coding. And Snake beats them without using that CQC.
... so jasper one-shots pearl
if she took a lot of hits and won with one move then i wouldn't really say she outskilled her. Also of course there's plenty of similar situations in MGS, such as Old Snake beating Vamp who one-shots him by whittling him down with weaponry and injecting him with a specific serum. With Vamp
I mean if he destroys it he'll be cutting through it like butter and he's got a decent chance at hitting the nose first try since it's in the middle of the face
Any reason to believe it behaves differently? Photons are still particles and normal attacks can interact with them just fine
Spinoirr
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"Yea but MGS CQC is literally beyond real martial arts to the point of stomping them, so Gene soldiers have much better base coding. And Snake beats them without using that CQC."
As is SU CQC. Again, Pearl tutoring Connie, a literal normal human (9-B being normal for humans in SU), made her skilled enough to take on and beat tier 7 opponents as skilled as Pearl on her own with just a sword.
"I mean if he destroys it he'll be cutting through it like butter and he's got a decent chance at hitting the nose first try since it's in the middle of the face"
If is the keyword here. Jasper upscales way above her feat and her helmet is more durable than the rest of her as its, well, armor, and he still has to actually land a solid blow to be able to even do that. And when has he been shown to immediately go specifically for a face stab?
"Any reason to believe it behaves differently? Photons are still particles and normal attacks can interact with them just fine"
Because his weapon doesnt ignore durability on things that dont have atoms? Do you have a scan that says that his sword cuts through photons? Not saying that he cant hurt her, just that his durability negation wouldnt work.
As is SU CQC. Again, Pearl tutoring Connie, a literal normal human (9-B being normal for humans in SU), made her skilled enough to take on and beat tier 7 opponents as skilled as Pearl on her own with just a sword.
"I mean if he destroys it he'll be cutting through it like butter and he's got a decent chance at hitting the nose first try since it's in the middle of the face"
If is the keyword here. Jasper upscales way above her feat and her helmet is more durable than the rest of her as its, well, armor, and he still has to actually land a solid blow to be able to even do that. And when has he been shown to immediately go specifically for a face stab?
"Any reason to believe it behaves differently? Photons are still particles and normal attacks can interact with them just fine"
Because his weapon doesnt ignore durability on things that dont have atoms? Do you have a scan that says that his sword cuts through photons? Not saying that he cant hurt her, just that his durability negation wouldnt work.
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For what it's worth, sundowner is prone to decapitation and shit, because lol androids. They can survive being decapitated, hell the guard that he cut the head off actually survived iirc. Sundowner is used to dudes being able to come back from decap, he lives in a world full of them. He might just aim for head destruction because his setting straight up sets him up for that. Actually, he himself can survive decap too.
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Being a good fighter doesn't mean you know a level of martial arts that is literally superior to anything IRL, it might just mean you're good at whatever you know. Also like, you do realize that is a recursive loop right? Pearl > Connie > Soldiers = Pearl?
duraneg + she wouldn't even know the sword duranegs, and since the helmet is way more durable than her she might just expect it to bounce off. So any blow will do, nevermind that Sundowner has stat amps for his sword anyway.
I have already detailed why he might go for the face
Nah mate, you need to prove their hard light bodies work differently from normal ones in this regard.
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Yeah voting Sundowner for Armor reasons rn
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Not voting, but since it involves Metal Gear Rising.
I believe you are referring to this part:
Around 1:10 to 1:14 for the said decap part although while the head of a guard got removed, it mentions something about “protection program execution” which I wonder what that means.
Now the big question is more of whatever that counts as “surviving” or not.
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I mean I'm pretty sure later in the game they mention the guards actually survived and got new bodies.
Which I'm inclined to believe, it's flat out stated cyborgs can survive complete body destruction, they just move their brain to a new body.
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Fair enough, but if I not mistaken, as long as the head is intact and isn’t completely destroyed or damaged for that matter, then they could “survive” till they get a new body.
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"Sufficient damage to her physical form can revert her back to her vulnerable gem form which can be broken and destroyed"
Like doesn’t SD just have to hit her once in this fight? Then realize that her gem is important and then strike it?
Like doesn’t SD just have to hit her once in this fight? Then realize that her gem is important and then strike it?
Spinoirr
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"For what it's worth, sundowner is prone to decapitation and shit, because lol androids. They can survive being decapitated, hell the guard that he cut the head off actually survived iirc. Sundowner is used to dudes being able to come back from decap, he lives in a world full of them. He might just aim for head destruction because his setting straight up sets him up for that. Actually, he himself can survive decap too."
That wouldnt kill Jasper though, that would just poof her and she would reform a few seconds later.
"Also like, you do realize that is a recursive loop right? Pearl > Connie > Soldiers = Pearl?"
It doesnt though? Pearl constantly skill stomped quartz soldiers in the war, in flashbacks of the war she was shown dealing killing blows on them before they could even perceive that she had hit them.
"Nah mate, you need to prove their hard light bodies work differently from normal ones in this regard."
Among other things like being stated that their bodies are made of light by both pearl and peridot, who are both supergeniuses far more intelligent than any scientist on earth with in-depth knowledge on gem physiology, gems giving off intense heat when forming their bodies, their bodies being stated as having no set shape or density and passively being altered by the gravity and air pressure in a given location, their bodies literally lagging behind a ship going at FTL speeds because their bodies cant travel faster than the speed of light whereas steven was unaffected, etc.
"Like doesn’t SD just have to hit her once in this fight? Then realize that her gem is important and then strike it?"
She can regen limbs without reverting to her gem
And theres still the issue of whether or not his dura negation would even work on her
That wouldnt kill Jasper though, that would just poof her and she would reform a few seconds later.
"Also like, you do realize that is a recursive loop right? Pearl > Connie > Soldiers = Pearl?"
It doesnt though? Pearl constantly skill stomped quartz soldiers in the war, in flashbacks of the war she was shown dealing killing blows on them before they could even perceive that she had hit them.
"Nah mate, you need to prove their hard light bodies work differently from normal ones in this regard."
Among other things like being stated that their bodies are made of light by both pearl and peridot, who are both supergeniuses far more intelligent than any scientist on earth with in-depth knowledge on gem physiology, gems giving off intense heat when forming their bodies, their bodies being stated as having no set shape or density and passively being altered by the gravity and air pressure in a given location, their bodies literally lagging behind a ship going at FTL speeds because their bodies cant travel faster than the speed of light whereas steven was unaffected, etc.
"Like doesn’t SD just have to hit her once in this fight? Then realize that her gem is important and then strike it?"
She can regen limbs without reverting to her gem
And theres still the issue of whether or not his dura negation would even work on her
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There's absolutely no doubt it would. It destabilises matter on a plank level. There's nothing smaller than that.
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I'm just gonna ignore the duraneg bit since yeah duh it works on her
Head destruction would, and that is the only thing that technically instakills cyborgs like Sundowner. I think, been a while
You literally just said they were as skilled as her.
What level of damage requires her to? Would being beheaded or cut in half do it?
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Gems have been poofed from things like impalement before, and Jasper was poofed from being impaled, though maybe being corrupted did something? I haven't kept much track of Steven Universe I admit, but I don't think Jasper could withstand decapitation or being cut in half without poofing.
Not fully sure if they could even have a limb cut off without poofing, but like I said I haven't kept up with the show.
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(((MAKING THE MOTHER OF ALL GEM CLUSTERS, PERI-JACK.
Memes aside, why would Sundowner's matter fuckery not work on her? The gem physiology page quite literally mentions that their gemstones are still susceptible to matter manipulation.
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