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Jarvan IV vs Jugram Haschwalth

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As of right now, Jarvan takes this quite handily, with far greater speed and likely far superior destructive capacity and durability.
 
you cant say that we have not seen him use it. I think we should wait in till we see him fight I think this fight to soon
 
Realistically. Jarvan gets stomped in every possible way.

Because realistically. There is no way Jarvan IV, implied to be at the very best low-level superhuman. Can be capable of multi-continental destruction.
 
And, being capable of fighting countless times against Jericho ******* Swain gives him at best low-level superhuman? You are really wrong with this point
 
Jericho Swain is also wrong in many levels. I think it has been mentioned before.

But i don't make threads about these kind of things because people usually gets triggered when you even subtly imply that the powerscalling that they gave to those characters is wrong.
 
Kyo Takashi said:
Unless you have proofs...
If you are just saying, than it's really nothing
Click to expand...
For example. It's not really possible for Jarvan to have such strength to destroy continents. Since he is and always was a normal human, his story never explain how a supossed human can have such power, specially when humans in league of legends are no that different from humans in real life.

For example, he ges powerscalled from Swain. And Swain ges powerscalled for no reason other than "being strong as" without higher proof. It gets even worse when there is no metion of Swain being that strong in the new lore.
 
If you're going to rant about "normal humans" and authorial intent on power levels then you have literally zero idea how this site functions

If we used authorial "intent" to determine how strong people should be, characters like Link and Sora and such likely wouldn't break Multi-City Block at best, Naruto/DBZ/almost any mainstream shonen would receive massive buffs, anything that was claimed to be omnipotent would definitely be so, and stats in general would fall to pieces all over the place

Even if we're not going to scale J4 and Swain to Lissandra/Brand despite the latter being the de facto big bad of the series and by definition the strongest thing in the kingdom: remember, in Noxus, strength in any and all forms equates to power and ability to rule justly: and J4 to that by being the only thing portrayed as being able to take him on? They're still Country level by virtue of being at equal to The Freljord Queens, who wield power equating to Anivia's

Anivia, of course, being the literal incarnation of the actual entire country's power, all of its natural forces and ambient magical energy and et cetera.

So no, they aren't "Just Wall level for being barely superhuman lol."

The reason we have these stats listed is so that people don't have to write small essays on how characters work every single time someone wants to casually debate something

"It's not really possible for Jarvan to have such strength to destroy continents. Since he is and always was a normal human, his story never explain how a supossed human can have such power, specially when humans in league of legends are no that different from humans in real life."

Do go on about how power levels that some Vs Battles site (That they as authors of a narrative-driven piece of fiction couldn't care less about) aren't "explained" by aforementioned narrative. I'm sure you'll be able to explain the large number of say, MFTL+, Large Star level Guilty Gear characters running about, or all of the Tier 1 abstract characters that very rarely do any kind of "busting" to speak of.

"when humans in league of legends are no that different from humans in real life"

Except for the part where, you know, they fire gigantic lasers out of their face, transform into animals, summon Cthulhu-esque eldritch aliens, and all of that good stuff. Unless our local governments can do all of this in Area 51 over here in the States and no one bothered telling me?
 
...come to think of it,

A: Isn't this a gigantic stomp, stat-wise? Or are we using Base/Pre-Freljord Wars Jarvan?

B: Isn't using alive Bleach characters generally frowned on anyhow?
 
This site needs multiquotes. Anyway.

1.-So, what you are basically trying to tell is. "It doesn't matter if neither the author nor the context is trying to tell a thing. We should tell what we think is right"? because. Again, our interpretations should be based on those of the author. If the author tells us something in his work. We should put it above from what understead. Jarvan IV is a normal human, at best with low-level superhuman capabilites that has no magic, no superpowers, no blessing or things like that. Then how is he capable of destroying entire continentes? In fact. If he is capable of destroying continents. Why can't he solo noxian's armies when big guns are not around? Damn, if he battle someone who is suposse to be capable of destroying continents or even the surface of earth. Why the max damage that they have showed is this?

http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/6e05ea739536822fd7076c4843a5ef31.jpg

Which to make it worse. It's not even canon anymore.

2.-You are just using world-building out-of-context. For example. Swain being considered "the big bad of the series" (When?) is equal to "Continent burstin capabilities" because "There are other menaces capable of continent-level destruction" You are relating things that have zero to do with each other. Swain is one of the biggest threats in Valoran not because he can destroy the whole continent. But because he is a master strategist. In fact, you just throw yourself to your grave by saying "remember, in Noxus, strength in any and all forms equates to power and ability to rule justly" which proves that is not necessary to burst continent in order to rule Noxus. Also, he (and Jarvan) are equal to the Freljord queens not because they burst countries but because both rule which is waaaay different. As i said. You are taking everything out of context to justify powerscalling.

3.- Yu are still not getting it and try to take me out of context. But all right.The big difference between. Well. i don't know, Asriel Dreemurr and Jarvan IV is that Asriel Dreemurr has 'a fictional explanation to be that strong' Jarvan has none. He is presented as a normal human in every instance of the lore that you are ignoring. A fictional human with no magic, no superpowers and no crap can't be that strong. Specially when he didn't even just show that he actually is apart from powerscalling

4.-And you are still taking things out of context. For things like this i don't complain about this type of profiles. Yes, Humans in Valoran do things obviously impossible for normal humans. But you know what? They are explained, they have context to cling in. People who throw lasers from their hands have magic, people who summon Cthulhu are possesed by otherworldy beings, people who go back in time have a magitech that allows them do it. But Jarvan only have a big lance, big muscles and a nice armor. But yet you are still climbing in making him multi-continental, despite never being showed or even implied being capable of doing so.


Also. And sorry to break it to you. But cinematics are not cano
 
1- Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and no they shouldn't when they contradict what's actually shown in practice. No superpowers? Do explain the magical glowing barriers and ability to hit the earth so hard it terraforms the surroundings into a crater.

Because he wasn't always that powerful? Because fiction is inconsistent? Have you ever considered that, just maybe, he can, given that Swain is again the one fighting him in person and not the armies raging around them? There's several dozen potential answers to this, but something you seem to fail to understand on a fundamental level is the difference between Attack Potency and Destructive Capability: the former has the equivalent destructive force of a given sort of attack, the latter actually blows up areas of land based on said destructive force.

2. And also because he quite literally ran around the country destroying all of his political rivals, often in public duels. "Not necessarily"? Sure, that might work in an entirely different context where basic powerscaling didn't exist. Same thing for the queens to Anivia, all of them scale to one another due to having directly fought during the Freljord wars, and Anivia being unable to wholly stop Lissandra's corruption only further supports this.

3. Except that I'm not. You're effectively saying the entire game and its lore isn't canon, and pretending arguments don't apply to you because you don't like them.

"A fictional human with no magic, no superpowers and no crap can't be that strong."

They most certainly can, your failure to understand this doesn't make it false. On top of this, you've failed to disprove how throwing magical stat-buffing flags, pulling up magical energy shields from the power of your ancestors, and hitting the earth with sufficient force to terraform it "aren't" superpowers somehow. Be right back, doing that IRL.

4. And J4's context is that he's the Prince of Demacia wielding a magical lance and the power of his ancestors, on top of being subject to basic powerscaling like damn near every other character in fiction? How does the source of his powers matter even remotely in this context?

5. Prove that. You talk a lot, and all of your proof for your points thus far consists of opinions.

Opinions are fine to have, they're what makes the world go 'round. They are not, however, usable in a Vs Debate setting when the accepted facts differ from it.
 
Already argued my case before, still waiting for that citing on where Lissandra and Brand even gets the multi-continent feat. Last time I checked they were continental if given time at least. That would resole a lot of issues if shown. And wasn't Super Galaxy Rumble non-canon last anyone checked? So why is relativistic even added on to that.

Sorry Perp, gonna have to question these now since they are part of the topic.

And agreeing with Point 2 on Alice here and the majority. Because come on. When a small Demacian Group coud route a small army led by Swain, would that automatically mean they're Continental? You got a lot of scaling abuse and buffing to do then
 
I'm going to answer this topic in part or something like that. Because i've lost all the progress of my answer for outside reasons. But anyway. I will start where i left

"5. Prove that. You talk a lot, and all of your proof for your points thus far consists of opinions."

Okay

League of Legends Cinematic Trailer
League of Legends Cinematic Trailer


LoL- Dominion Cinematic (AUDIO FIXED)-0
LoL- Dominion Cinematic (AUDIO FIXED)-0



This two cinematics are non-canonical by virtue of having Summoners and the overall League of Legends in it. Both being non-canon since, what, a year now?

League of Legends Cinematic A Twist of Fate-0
League of Legends Cinematic A Twist of Fate-0


This cinematic is non-canonical because it despicts the death of Tibbers, which it would make him canonically dead. Also, it shows a skin, which are also non-canon. You can also count Nocturne slicing Ryze's scroll and possibly dying if you want.

League of Legends Cinematic A New Dawn-0
League of Legends Cinematic A New Dawn-0


This one has a lot. First of all, Leona being severly injured by a Darius and almost dying (Powerlevels going to hell) Leona can't dodging him despite having infinitly superior reactions, it also despicts the deaths of Draven, Zyra, Jax, Katarina (which is a ******* big deal if she is dead) Graves (Who is another big deal because he CAN'T die since we later see him in Burning Tides) Nautilus (This one is really good. BEcause even if you want to take this cinematic as canon it would mean that Nautilus, someone with Island durability dies because of a pillar falling to him. So even using your logic the video is inaccurate) Darius (Who can, to add more inconsitencies. Survive a solar flare)

This isn't even half of the original reply. But since i don't want my work being losed again. I will answer with this and edit it or something like that later. When the rain gets better.
 
Stupidity all around. You use cinematics of them fighting and dying, and say that THEY DEATH CAN'T BE CANNON? Do you ever played a single match of the game? Cause, from what I know, you can die one hundred times and the champion will not really die

Is simply ridiculous what you are implying. You know why the league has been made? You know that every single champion in the game is downgraded from what they really are? Like you said about Leona been hit and almost killed by Darius, who is from far slower than she is. A ******* Teemo can kill an Aurelion Sol with ease because of this. Anivia, who is the embodiment of all Freijord's power, can be killed with ease by a Katarina, who is just an assassin
 
And Jarvan being at max a low-level superhuman, when he can create large craters just by hitting the ground with a Spear....
 
Although I would agree that gameplay and cinematics/lore should be separate, Kyo that doesn't really excuse Swain and Jarvan from scaling off of the continental feat when they're influential army leaders. Translating the influence over masses into power isn't really a fitting thing to do.

Because taking out the strongest people in the country, does not make you country level. And since Swain or Jarvan had never been associated with Anivia, Brand or Lissandra. There's also the issue that no one tries to clear up just where the multi-continental feat coming from. I've been asking about that for ages, yet no one is answering me.

Basically, even if Jarvan is non superhuman, it doesn't mean he can wipe out continents in a single spear jab nor have the AP to pierce through something like that. Simple.
 
I believe that Swain and Jarvan are scaled to Lissandra and other strong champions, because they are the exception. While is understandable for Ascendants and Darkins to be scaled to them, as they are the most powerful beings at side of those like Lissandra, but its naturally strange to think that Jarvan IV and Swain be at that same level

But, like I said before, they are the exceptions. There are no humans like them in League of Legends. While other humans like Phanteon can reach similar power level, but being the incarnation of war itself, or Olaf that is even stronger but not at that level, J4 is that powerful for being scaled with Swain, and Swain is that powerful because of him being stated as one of the most powerful beings, at side of Lissadra or Ascendants
 
Despite having never met each other up front aside from a match?

Despite their lands having no relevance to the other and neither of them referencing each other?

Despite the two heroes being naturally strong, I believe they're not just weaklings, but since when have they showed any potential for those feats? That crater creation? That was like CB to MCB visually. Swain hasn't shown any raw power to do that much damage comparable to Lissandra either. And no this isn't just some pointless DC comparison or me trying to ignore AP. I'm talking about the fact that those two were heroes to their lands and are leaders that took over for beating everyone. They did not beat Lissandra or Brand. Their influence over their kingdom is arguably a threat to Lissandra and Brand. But again, they're not references so how can we even know that they're threats to those two?

Why is it strange? They frequently fight all the time don't they? Then again it's hinted that Swain may be stronger.

I already said I agree with you. But I'm questioning does Swain and every other hi tier have to be continental despite never encountering Lissandra or Blake?

And again, where does Continental League comes from? Because that is the root of everything.

Don't try to say Ascendants are continental. They're island at best and that's already using the idea that Leona could use the same amount of power that saved her before. It was a big flash of light that blinded and knocked out people but didn't harm her. If she was chosen as an Ascendant it doesn't mean her power level is the same as them, only partly as powerful.
 
Ascendants? The most powerful beings in League of Legends, apart those like Aurelion, are island at best, with beings weaker than them having continental buster feats?

Trying to understand that logic

Comparing Ascendants to Leona is such a downgrade to them....
 
This is PS. If Swain is said to be as powerful as beings like Lissandra or Brand, a fight between them would only prove that statement
 
D'oh. I meant Aspects, not Ascendants. Dangit, wrong use of statement. Anyway, what I'm saying? Even saying Leona is Island Level is debatable considering she only uses part of their power. And it was more of a knockout light than anything.

If you seem so adamant about that then show me that statement. A Direct Statement of them being referenced that. That's pure speculating and usage of scaling abuse anyway.

Edit - and again I ask... Where's continental Lissandra and Swain?
 
I do not have the statement. I'm only defending the part of those who put that on Swain's profile. You could do a discussion about where that statement came from

Lissandra continental is on her lore. She being able to freze the surface of all the planet, or she being capable of imprison a full power Brand, who is too stated on the lore to be capable of turning all runeterra to ash and kill every living being on the planet
 
Then that's not a valid statement.

Said lore is outdated. Not to mention if she could then why didn't she do it already? It could only imply that she was continental IF give ntime.

Interestingly enough, giving the background lore gives no statement showing that she could do that. Not the freeze the surface part nor even imprison a full power Brand. And again, same issue with Brand who was done in by the League's summoners. And oh, why am I using outdated League lore? Because this is the only basis we have. We can't just assume he's The Beast from Infamous who can destroy everything when he hasn't shown the capability to do so and has failed against a kindgom's army.
 
1 - I never tried to absolute. If it gets that impresion, I apologize

2 - Said lore its not outdated just because you want it to be. Her It isn't, Brand is the only one that is outdated. There is any proof of contradiction involving the champions released after her, that affect her story? I don't see any of this

Lissandra don't did that because she obviously would be defeated, be that before or after. You know, It has 3 powerful champions directly against she, and more if you put Brand, Braum and Udyr in that, as they are literally her rivals. She NEED the help of the Frozen Watchers. Why do you think she is waiting for a war between the tribes to then attack?
 
Alright. Apology accepted.

Aaand I don't understand the second part of your question. Even if you say the former half of your paragraph, nothing shows that it's fully updated either.

Again, where does your statement comes from? I don't even know what you're trying to say.

And it took her centuries and she's still around unable to take over. If she has continental powers then she would've took over from the start then. She's a strategist but again it seems like she's only continental if given time.
 
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