Izuku Midoriya vs Naruto Uzumaki

[karo_senpaii]

Why did Naruto not blitz Obito and kill him instantly? Or why not blitz Pain when he was in Sage Mode and kill all the paths instantly?

“Blitzing someone several meters away”

Ah so you don’t read Deku’s profile.



In the very first showing of Gearshift, he blitzed across the distance he tossed Shigaraki with Blackchain, punches him five times in the chest, launches him into the sky dozens of meters, and only THEN does Shigaraki question what is even happening to him or recognize that he is being attacked.

The next instant, right after having an Overdrive shoved into his chest and crashing him into the ground from the sky, he can’t even finish bouncing off of the floor before he is again blitzed as Deku rushes down the dozens of meters in the air he, uses Quintuple Detroit Smash, then sends him flying AGAIN before he recognizes that he was hit. He’s moving so fast that AFO thinks that he’s being hit once.

Time limit? He has 5 minutes of Gearshift, but can activate it four separate times, as his supernatural willpower lets him basically ignore the oxygen deprivation for a while. And even then, he can use Overlay and move at Gearshift speeds anyway.

1. For this key, Naruto is 100% at his strongest form besides adding sage mode, a form that does not let him blitz people on par with him.

2. Blitzing someone dozens of meters, then punching them 5 times, then sending them flying through the air and catching up to them at the same time they realize “oh I just got punched” absolutely scales somewhere.

3. Awesome, show me a shunshin blitz from two comparable speed opponents where the one doing the blitzing can hit the other several times, send them flying then catch up to them before they even recognize that they’ve been hit. Then we’re going somewhere.

Also, that means Shunshin is literally what I already said, he focuses chakra to move faster. Deku’s Danger Sense can detect and let him dodge differences in speed comparable to his own Gearshift. So Shunshin is not catching Deku.

Naruto’s speed in KCM LITERALLY comes from him being comparable to Edo Madara, if he could blitz Edo Madara from dozens of meters away and hit him several times before he could even perceive the attacks coming, he would have done that. You adding arbitrary speed amps does not make up the lack of showings.

Naruto clones are getting one tapped by Deku’s massive AoE clearing out several kilometers of land, they can fire back if they wish but clones are not going to last long when their opponent can fly and throw out enough range to nuke the island they’re fighting on. Deku has options to dodge Bijuu bombs but his Fa Jin is able to hit Shigaraki who had Danger Sense precog + his Quirks back. Clones cannot fly so there’s no escaping if Deku decides to gouge out the land to destroy them all.

Hey man it's getting heated. I've addressed most of your points including repeatedly telling you punching someone 5 times isn't all that. I'll summarise one more time.

Naruto and obito and madara have comparable speed. Why can't naruto blitz them with shunin? Because they themselves have shunshin too and they also have a sharingan which gives them greater reaction speed than their own shunshin

Please kindly tag the speed amps I added that are arbitrary. I'm going by abilities on profiles and there are images with links for shunshin
Same with sage mode. Not only did jiraiya and naruto both blitz and one tap pain puppets that overwhelmed them sage mode but naruto stated the one he used with kurama mode is far superior due to being able to absorb much more natural energy.

You can describe the blitz however you want. A blitz is a blitz. The point was that deku at no point is not gonna outclass or blitz naruto. Find other tangents to argue. It is definitely not speed. Naruto has as much if not more amps than him

 

[Godernet]

If something is true, best to do whatever you can to get it added.

mb I'll add it in a bit then

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

That’s fine then, his opponents have methods of reacting to his blitz.

However, I would still like to understand where this belief that the Shunshin Jutsu lets you not only completely blitz anyone who is normally comparable to your speed (I understand it does that), but lets you hit them five times in a row AND launch them dozens of meters away

Naruto used shunshin Jutsu to blitz and knock back 5 Bijuu dama individually scattering them to different locations, miles away before people like Kakashi and or Guy could react.

Naruto def has the speed to do that kind of stuff, its just that shunshin is used in short bursts as oppose to continues onslaughts, unless your someone like shisui,minato or tobirama.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

And Safe Mode being a massive amp to speed to the point of being another Shunshin blitz is strange because base Naruto could keep up with Pain. Pain, who has a lot of sensory abilities, should stomp Naruto out of existence if he was moving comparable to Shunshin Sage Mode Naruto and had two levels of blitzes over him.

Hey man it's getting heated. I've addressed most of your points including repeatedly telling you punching someone 5 times isn't all that. I'll summarise one more time.

Naruto and obito and madara have comparable speed. Why can't naruto blitz them with shunin? Because they themselves have shunshin too and they also have a sharingan which gives them greater reaction speed than their own shunshin

Please kindly tag the speed amps I added that are arbitrary. I'm going by abilities on profiles and there are images with links for shunshin
Same with sage mode. Not only did jiraiya and naruto both blitz and one tap pain puppets that overwhelmed them sage mode but naruto stated the one he used with kurama mode is far superior due to being able to absorb much more natural energy.

You can describe the blitz however you want. A blitz is a blitz. The point was that deku at no point is not gonna outclass or blitz naruto. Find other tangents to argue. It is definitely not speed. Naruto has as much if not more amps than him

No, he does not. Gearshift is a superior speed amp in every single way besides its time limit, which Deku can go beyond. You have displayed no evidence whatsoever that Shunshin can do even half of what Gearshift allows Deku to do.

It’s not about just hitting him five times before he can react, which is already an insane feat of speed that would be the deciding factor for literally any fight in existence.

It’s about blitzing him across several meters, THEN hitting him five times, THEN launching him dozens of meters into the air, and only while his enemy is in the air do they realize that anything has even happened to him. NO Shunshin blitz between two equal speed characters has that vast of a gap.

Basic blitzes in MHA aren’t even this bad. Gran Torino could blitz base Deku, moving so fast that he could not perceive or react to him. Iida blitzed people with Recipro Turbo, also making it so they could not react to him. I know what a normal blitz is and Gearshift is not that. It is a level beyond a basic “get to the enemy and hit them before they can react,” he was performing an entire combo on ShigAFO after blitzing the distance then launched him into the air, all while the guy’s neurons haven’t even told him he has been moved off of his feet.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Naruto used shunshin Jutsu to blitz and knock back 5 Bijuu dama individually scattering them to different locations, miles away before people like Kakashi and or Guy could react.

Naruto def has the speed to do that kind of stuff, its just that shunshin is used in short bursts as oppose to continues onslaughts, unless your someone like shisui,minato or tobirama.

Wasn’t that AFTER he unlocked full cooperation with Kurama, making him faster than before? Also no, Guy and Kakashi reacted to him and the Bijuu Bombs were sent flying and exploded well after they recognized that Naruto did something. Not to mention the Bijuu are right in front of them.



Gearshift would be more equal to “he smacked away all the Bijuu bomb and hit each Bijuu sending them flying backwards with none of them even understanding what just happened.”

 

[Godernet]

mb I'll add it in a bit then

added

KSM Naruto with his stronger rasengans is at least 200 Teratons

KCM Naruto's rasengans should be 190 Teratons something but I'll add that later since it would require rewording some of KSM Naruto's physical's justifications and since all of the profiles scans got obliterated it's kinda annoying.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Wasn’t that AFTER he unlocked full cooperation with Kurama, making him faster than before?

this version of Kakashi can react to KCM 2 Naruto

Also no, Guy and Kakashi reacted to him

no Kakashi only noticed Naruto was standing in front of him after they had already been deflected

and the Bijuu Bombs were sent flying and exploded well after they recognized that Naruto did something.

no they reacted to the bijuu bombs exploding once they were already deflected, thats because the speed that the bijuu bombs are traveling are slower than naruto's initial deflection

Not to mention the Bijuu are right in front of them.

okay?

Gearshift would be more equal to “he smacked away all the Bijuu bomb and hit each Bijuu sending them flying backwards with none of them even understanding what just happened.”

yeah because once again body flicker is a very short burst of speed, im not being hyperbolic when i say that lol

 

[Kingofwolves999]

this version of Kakashi can react to KCM 2 Naruto

no Kakashi only noticed Naruto was standing in front of him after they had already been deflected

no they reacted to the bijuu bombs exploding once they were already deflected, thats because the speed that the bijuu bombs are traveling are slower than naruto's initial deflection

okay?

yeah because once again body flicker is a very short burst of speed, im not being hyperbolic when i say that lol

Yes, and he was not blitzing the edo Jinchuriki alongside Guy, implying the gap in speed between KCM1 and KCM2 is not massive.

No…? He’s shocked that he sees Minato in Naruto, but as the panel shows, he quickly gets rid of the Bijuu Bombs but in the same panel he’s doing that, Guy and Kakashi have reacted and are shielding their faces from the shockwave he created. Guy then regards that he is very fast, meaning Guy very clearly can perceive Naruto but is stunned by his speed.

They reacted to the Bijuu bomb exploding because of how big they were. They already see and know he deflected them well before they explode, as the panels show. Guy literally comments on how fast he is before the bombs go off.

And I get it’s a short burst of speed but the main argument being levied against Gearshift so far is “he just activates Shunshin and is permanently as fast as Gearshift cause Shunshin is a blitz too,” as if different levels of blitzing don’t exist or that the technique isn’t a single time quick movement.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Also I think Guy is the one asking “Is that Naruto,” and that’s not cause he literally didn’t perceive what he did, it’s cause he looks way different. Nothing else in that scene implies that they were heavily blitzed by his quick move to deflect the bombs, at least not to the point that they could not understand what he did.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

i think im going to kill myself

i wrote a long ass post and it didnt save

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

i think im going to kill myself

i wrote a long ass post and it didnt save

 

[Kingofwolves999]

i think im going to kill myself

i wrote a long ass post and it didnt save

I am sorry for your loss

 

[TheRustyOne]

i think im going to kill myself

i wrote a long ass post and it didnt save

Here's a solution for everyone here. How about you all stop trying to write entire novels when debating?

That sucks for real though, sometimes there's just no avoiding it no matter how careful you are.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Here's a solution for everyone here. How about you all stop trying to write entire novels when debating?

That sucks for real though, sometimes there's just no avoiding it no matter how careful you are.

Coming from the professional novelist debater himself? I’m just trying to get like you big bro

 

[Godernet]

Yes, and he was not blitzing the edo Jinchuriki alongside Guy

the Edo Jin have Sharingan and Rinnegan,

• so enhanced sight and perception(well that perceives well beyond blitz level amps as we see it's the only way to use Chidori, a blitz-level amp.)
• Analytical Prediction and info analysis (that provided clear images of the opponent's next move as if seeing the future.)
• sensory abilities as Rinnegan users
• and shared vision amongst the six of them and Obito.

blitzing the Edo Jin isnt something easy even if you have a blitz level amp, Guy can reach speeds far more than 5x his base with his gates and still couldnt blitz them.

, implying the gap in speed between KCM1 and KCM2 is not massive.

he's not always using Shunshin you know, mostly because the first time he used it in KCM he got stuck in a wall and hurt his ankle.

and yeah the gap between KCM1 and KCM2 isn't massive but the gap between regular physicals and Shunshin is.

KCM Naruto's Shunshin moves faster than Yamato could perceive and made Base Bee think he teleported.

The same Base Bee was relative in speed to KCM Naruto's regular movement in their fights with Nagato and Itachi as well as vs the Jinchuuriki

Here is KCM Naruto struggling with V1 Ay's movement speed and here's Base Bee reacting to that same V1 Ay.

then here's Naruto fully outpacing Top Speed Ay with his Shunshin speed.

There are a few more examples too if needed.

No…? He’s shocked that he sees Minato in Naruto, but as the panel shows, he quickly gets rid of the Bijuu Bombs but in the same panel he’s doing that, Guy and Kakashi have reacted and are shielding their faces from the shockwave he created. Guy then regards that he is very fast, meaning Guy very clearly can perceive Naruto but is stunned by his speed.

them having their hands up to block the shockwave, and Guy saying he's fast having nothing to do with them perceiving him

Naruto shunshin'd in, smacked the bombs away, and appeared in front of them shining like a yellow glowstick before Guy made his comment.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

And I get it’s a short burst of speed but the main argument being levied against Gearshift so far is “he just activates Shunshin and is permanently as fast as Gearshift cause Shunshin is a blitz too,” as if different levels of blitzing don’t exist or that the technique isn’t a single time quick movement.

im just gonna address this because it easier.

I agree, I dont think body flicker is a good bulletproof defense for Gearshift, my initial post makes this clear, i think naruto having really really good precog and body flicker does prevent him from being a sitting duck but its not enough to stop him from being overwhelmed because even in a hypothetical where naruto pulls a raikage and dodges Deku's attack, his going to reset while Deku can just turn and come back. its not within naruto's character to constantly be body flickering 24/7 (unless its adult nard and his beating down a woman)

the point was just that characters can and do blitz people of similar speed, i dont really feel like typing out a bible again so im going just agree to disagree on the Bijuu bomb stuff given its tiring to argue interpretation of continuity between panels in a single page.

other examples include KCM Naruto vs the Third Rikage, KCM vs MUU and KCM2 vs Blind Madara.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

the Edo Jin have Sharingan and Rinnegan,

• so enhanced perception(well that perceives well beyond blitz level amps as we see it's the only way to use Chidori, a blitz-level amp.)
• Analytical Prediction (that provided clear images of the opponent's next move)
• sensory abilities as Rinnegan users
• and shared vision amongst the six of them and Obito.

he's not always using Shunshin you know, mostly because the first time he used it in KCM he got stuck in a wall and hurt his ankle.

and yeah the gap between KCM1 and KCM2 isn't massive but the gap between regular physicals and Shunshin is.

KCM Naruto's Shunshin moves faster than Yamato could perceive and made Base Bee think he teleported.

The same Base Bee was relative in speed to KCM Naruto's regular movement in their fights with Nagato and Itachi as well as vs the Jinchuuriki

Here is KCM Naruto struggling with V1 Ay's movement speed and here's Base Bee reacting to that same V1 Ay.

then here's Naruto fully outpacing Top Speed Ay with his Shunshin speed.

them having their hands up to block the shockwave, and Guy saying he's fast having nothing to do with them perceiving him

Naruto shunshin'd in, smacked the bombs away, and appeared in front of them shining like a yellow glowstick before Guy made his comment.

Kakashi didn't even fully perceive who it was and he has the Sharingan.

Again, I’m not disagreeing with Shunshin being a blitz. I know it is. My issue is the claim that it is the same level of blitz that Gearshift is, and therefore if Deku activates Gearshift, it does not matter in the fight.

And yes, them raising their hands and commenting on his speed absolutely has something to do with them perceiveinf him. If they could not perceive him, they wouldn’t comment because they wouldn’t know he had moved.

Also I thought the shunshin was caught by the Sharingan because of it’s enhanced reactions, so does KCM2 blitz Sharingan users or not?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

im just gonna address this because it easier.

I agree, I dont think body flicker is a good bulletproof defense for Gearshift, my initial post makes this clear, i think naruto having really really good precog and body flicker does prevent him from being a sitting duck but its not enough to stop him from being overwhelmed because even in a hypothetical where naruto pulls a raikage and dodges Deku's attack, his going to reset while Deku can just turn and come back. its not within naruto's character to constantly be body flickering 24/7 (unless its adult nard and his beating down a woman)

the point was just that characters can and do blitz people of similar speed, i dont really feel like typing out a bible again so im going just agree to disagree on the Bijuu bomb stuff given its tiring to argue interpretation of continuity between panels in a single page.

other examples include KCM Naruto vs the Third Rikage, KCM vs MUU and KCM2 vs Blind Madara.

And that is something I’ve already agreed to, so we are both on the same wavelength. I will also just ignore the Bijuu point as it’s a single scene and I still believe shunshin is a blitz regardless of interpretation of that particular moment.

So to cement my argument: Deku has a tough time in the beginning, but hangs in there with his flight, mobility, precog, predictions, Blackwhip attacks and speed amps from Fa Jin. He has the AoE to deal with clones so they don’t overwhelm his senses, and won’t fall for tricks thanks to Danger Sense alerting him where Naruto is basically at all times, as well as his own enhanced senses.

The second he feels threatened or understands that Naruto is stronger than him or is a bigger threat to him than Shigaraki, he will activate Gearshift, which makes it so Naruto cannot perceive his movements, and proceed to try and knock him down with constant Overdrive punches. Attacks which, to Naruto, would be like getting hit with something stronger than his own Sage Mode Oodama Rasengan’s (minus rotating damage part).

It’d be like making Madara’s perfect Susano 50% stronger and having it punching him in the head and chest over and over again.

This will continue for 5 minutes straight, at which point Deku assesses how much damage he has done, and either activates Gearshift again and does it all over, or puppets his body with Overlay which lets him do the same thing but without the suffocation.

Thank you for the concise paragraph and I’ll wait any further arguments-

its not within naruto's character to constantly be body flickering 24/7 (unless its adult nard and his beating down a woman)

Wut

 

[Godernet]

Again, I’m not disagreeing with Shunshin being a blitz. I know it is. My issue is the claim that it is the same level of blitz that Gearshift is, and therefore if Deku activates Gearshift, it does not matter in the fight.

that's fair

And yes, them raising their hands and commenting on his speed absolutely has something to do with them perceiveinf him. If they could not perceive him, they wouldn’t comment because they wouldn’t know he had moved.

I mean if the force of a glowing person appearing in front of you creates a shockwave you would call them fast too even if you couldn't watch them travel in front of you.

Also I thought the shunshin was caught by the Sharingan because of it’s enhanced reactions,

it depends on the user, some Shunshin users seem capable of using it beyond the standard blitz-level amp.

so does KCM2 blitz Sharingan users or not?

the only one he really fights is Juubito who is already much faster than him so we arent really given that interaction.

but Sharingan's sensory capabilities can perceive movement that would normally blitz the users in base.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

that's fair

I mean if the force of a glowing person appearing in front of you creates a shockwave you would call them fast too even if you couldn't watch them travel in front of you.

it depends on the user, some Shunshin users seem capable of using it beyond the standard blitz-level amp.

the only one he really fights is Juubito who is already much faster than him so we arent really given that interaction.

but Sharingan's sensory capabilities can perceive movement that would normally blitz the users in base.

I will simply agree to disagree about that specific example, as it doesn’t matter overall given I know Shunshin is a blitz amp regardless. My main argument is above and I will simply stick with comments about that then hopping all over.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

flight is prob not that a big deal for naruto given this version straight up fights a person who can fly.

that being said i also wanna bring this up, and it super silly but it happens so often, these people jump and can somehow be stationary in the air for extended periods of time ...for reasons lol

 

[Smashtwig]

I feel like these points for Narutos end haven't been brought up yet (I'm going to ignore the speed thing and let you guys hash it out)

From what I understand Deku's Danger Sense is basically just getting him a "EY YO WATCH YO JET" warning, and Deku needs to use his intelligence to actually figure out what's going on.

• Naruto can pretty easily make a strategy around that. He has clones, if Deku is detecting a idk a Transformation jutsu (idk how he'd figure it out), Naruto could easily sicc a couple clones on him, and Deku goes "oh that's what danger sense is warning me about", turn around to address those clones, and Naruto gets him from behind- or use a Shadow Shuriken Jutsu to make Deku think the danger comes from the first demon wind shuriken- overwhelm his sight and hearing with light and paper bombs to hinder his ability to access what the danger actually is from the Danger Sense, or have a clone transform into a Rasenshuriken, which would also be picked up as an equal danger, and Deku would put more priority into dodging that dangerous thing and thus, Naruto can control his behavior of what he prioritizes on the defense
• There's also the fact that Sage Mode melee attacks have extra range so when deku dodges, Frog Kata invisible aura punch is going to catch the guy off guard, because he thinks he addressed what Danger Sense is warning him about.

I would typically think that someone whose been Quirkless their entire life would trust their sight more than some new Quirk Sense that they got a couple months ago, and Naruto fooled Kiba whose lived with effectively a second main sense his whole life

As well I think I need to bring up my entire argument against people thinking that Precognition makes people invincible as some untouchable entity, you can predict a ping pong ball slam on the right corner of the table and STILL fail to hit it back, and in this case it would also trigger when you're on the offense, making it even harder to defend, not to mention that Naruto has been training in hand to hand by multiple experienced masters since he was a child playing with dangerous knives whereas Deku has a year at max at this point being relatively self taught

Also while I understand that Blackwhip can sweep the battlefield, the numbers advantage is just absurd, more clones will appear in place of destroyed ones and Naruto can easily dig through the ground to dodge and sneak Deku like he did against Neji who had an X Ray vision eye. Deku is effectively multitasking way too much to be able to handle so many attacks from so many angles. A Uzumaki 2K Barrage would hit every dang square inch of this dude, especially when they can just spawn out of thin air from any angle, I would find that hard to after Deku addresses the first wave and more clones spawn in a blind spot that Deku has to address again and again endlessly

Also say Deku manages to knock Naruto out or something like that, Kurama at any time can go like "bet MY TURN", and then Deku would have the poison to worry about, because Kurama is more likely to use that (and Naruto definitely has access to that variant of Chakra considering the goopy Chakra makes an appearance even after he unlocked Kurama Mode), there's no way that Kurama that lived for like, some hundred years- all of them hating on humanity, is suddenly going to drop it in one day, he can definitely get that hate back if he needed to

Dekus Smokescreen and Narutos Smoke Bombs are something both can take advantage of, and I feel like Naruto might have a better use of it? He has experience of turning it against his foes like Kiba and I personally think that what he did against Pain was much more impressive as a multistep plan than Dekus use of it versus Nagant (like I think he used his belongings as distractions and then busted out of the ceiling, creative in using the building but idk if that outclasses Narutos feats)

Okay I said I won't address the speed thing but I feel like this needs to be said. The whole "five hits in one moment" doesn't really mean one shot. An MMA fighter won't just go down in eight crosses/straights by another MMA guy just because 7.5x is our standard for one shot.

If you think that Naruto gets donutted, why can't Naruto regenerate from that, he got Chidori'd, and he just grabbed Sasuke for that, why can't Naruto do the same with his giant avatar to grab him when he gets donutted?

Naruto also just has good defenses in slowing Dekus momentum down to not deal THAT much damage, like Clones just being... in the way. He also just has a generally good forcefield to reduce damage with his Kurama aura stuff.

Also, Naruto would have Sage Mode for a large amount of time considering how many clones he has that can just start sitting down, and Izuku with the curse of being intelligent may target those clones first, forcing him to move in a way Naruto wants him to. And if Sage Mode is active I feel like Deku would just be outclassed in AP because Naruto DEFINITELY has more than even just a 2x amp to stats, not just a 1% Boost, and its constant where as Dekus would kinda have to be in bursts with how Fajin works with its weird muscle repetition mechanic which Naruto may be able to pick up on

Most of Deku's answers are counters which are reactionary to what Naruto does, so in the end you could say that Naruto is in control of this battle which is a very important thing.


Of course this all changes depending on how we deal with the while Speed Blitz thing. I'm pretty sure the amp is in proportion to the Chakra being input as shown in the tree climbing training where you cam break the bark or not stick to the tree at all depending on how much Chakra you put into your feet. Considering how much Chakra Naruto has access to he could keep up. Plus Kurama Mode / KCM has always been a speed type form where Naruto decides to use Shuishin all the times (especially the case for his KCM showings because bro definitely decided to make that his main thing during that time in the war ever since he got it to like... 3rd Raikage, maybe even further I forgor)

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Oh joy, I typed a response and it got deleted as well. Fml.

Whatever, here’s my reply:

1) Danger Sense is only part of why Deku is hard to hit, the other is thanks to the intelligence he uses alongside it. His ability to predict and avoid attacks is the entire reason Danger Sense is useful, even without it he can react to people that blitz him like Gran Torino just by studying them for like 15 seconds, heck less time against Mirio who literally blitzed all of his friends. So yes, the whole point of it is to let his actual intelligence shine through, not make him over reliant on a single ability. That’s why when he lost it to Shigaraki, he could counter trick both Search and Danger Sense by knowing his own weaknesses.

2) Clones get deleted by the massive island sized AoE that he can throw for free with every movement he makes. They are fighting on an island that Deku can level with a single punch, if he sees 2k clones jumping across trees to punch him in the face with glowing balls, he’s not gonna take chances of this being another Sad Man’s Parade. A dangerous guy ON TOP of having Twice’s Quirk? Oh nah, he’s blowing them all away the moment he sees it.

3) It’s not the five punches at once that matters as much as the subsequent single punch that hits harder than Naruto’s Sage Mode Oodama Rasengan’s. Like I said, when Deku activates Gearshift, Naruto is effectively going to be getting punched in the face over and over by an amped Madara Susano.

He would vaguely sense Deku’s movements, but he literally would not be able to keep up with him, especially if he gets grabbed by Blackwhip while getting blitzed.

4) Again. Orochimaru punched Naruto and his hand didn’t burn, he only burned when he held on with snakes. Sakura got messed by the chakra because it entered the wound she got from the tail smack. Deku wears GLOVES and armor. The poison is not going to take him out, especially when he can precog move out of the way and just coat his fist in Blackwhip to protect him further.

5) Deku is a counter based fighter. His entire style revolves around reacting, around seeing what the enemy does and picking the best course of action to predict what they do or at least respond to it in a way that doesn’t get him killed while minimizing casualties. Naruto control what Deku reacts to, yes, but he is also the one who has to approach every single time. Deku is in his element here just as much as Naruto is.

6) Low Gear Smokescreen to keep the smoke in place so he can punch Naruto in the face, it’s not a very versatile ability but he can do things with it Naruto doesn’t. Also he can sense through the smoke, as he proved En wrong in its usage against Shigaraki.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

6) Low Gear Smokescreen to keep the smoke in place so he can punch Naruto in the face, it’s not a very versatile ability but he can do things with it Naruto doesn’t. Also he can sense through the smoke, as he proved En wrong in its usage against Shigaraki.

what do you mean by this, naruto can sense through smoke lol

 

[That_moron2]

unless its adult nard and his beating down a woman

 

[Kingofwolves999]

what do you mean by this, naruto can sense through smoke lol

So could Shigaraki with Danger Sense and a literal ability to see where Deku was at all times and he still got punched in the chest. It’s not about knowing where he is, it’s the fake hit from Blackwhip followed by a punch. Though I guess that strategy was tailor made for Search + Danger Sense, so eh.

Regardless, smoke is not a problem for either of the people here, and that just deserved its own mention.

 

[Arkenis]

Starting Distance = 50 Meters

I gotta ask, why do I always see matches with short distance? These characters have range in the tens of km, standard 4km ain't hurting them

 

[karo_senpaii]

Oh joy, I typed a response and it got deleted as well. Fml.

Whatever, here’s my reply:

1) Danger Sense is only part of why Deku is hard to hit, the other is thanks to the intelligence he uses alongside it. His ability to predict and avoid attacks is the entire reason Danger Sense is useful, even without it he can react to people that blitz him like Gran Torino just by studying them for like 15 seconds, heck less time against Mirio who literally blitzed all of his friends. So yes, the whole point of it is to let his actual intelligence shine through, not make him over reliant on a single ability. That’s why when he lost it to Shigaraki, he could counter trick both Search and Danger Sense by knowing his own weaknesses.

2) Clones get deleted by the massive island sized AoE that he can throw for free with every movement he makes. They are fighting on an island that Deku can level with a single punch, if he sees 2k clones jumping across trees to punch him in the face with glowing balls, he’s not gonna take chances of this being another Sad Man’s Parade. A dangerous guy ON TOP of having Twice’s Quirk? Oh nah, he’s blowing them all away the moment he sees it.

3) It’s not the five punches at once that matters as much as the subsequent single punch that hits harder than Naruto’s Sage Mode Oodama Rasengan’s. Like I said, when Deku activates Gearshift, Naruto is effectively going to be getting punched in the face over and over by an amped Madara Susano.

He would vaguely sense Deku’s movements, but he literally would not be able to keep up with him, especially if he gets grabbed by Blackwhip while getting blitzed.

4) Again. Orochimaru punched Naruto and his hand didn’t burn, he only burned when he held on with snakes. Sakura got messed by the chakra because it entered the wound she got from the tail smack. Deku wears GLOVES and armor. The poison is not going to take him out, especially when he can precog move out of the way and just coat his fist in Blackwhip to protect him further.

5) Deku is a counter based fighter. His entire style revolves around reacting, around seeing what the enemy does and picking the best course of action to predict what they do or at least respond to it in a way that doesn’t get him killed while minimizing casualties. Naruto control what Deku reacts to, yes, but he is also the one who has to approach every single time. Deku is in his element here just as much as Naruto is.

6) Low Gear Smokescreen to keep the smoke in place so he can punch Naruto in the face, it’s not a very versatile ability but he can do things with it Naruto doesn’t. Also he can sense through the smoke, as he proved En wrong in its usage against Shigaraki.

Just wanna let you know that destroying the clones would work only once. The next time deku would never see them coming coz naruto would just transform them to rubble.
And just like deku aoe attacks, if naruto and his clones fire tbb it's wraps

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Just wanna let you know that destroying the clones would work only once. The next time deku would never see them coming coz naruto would just transform them to rubble.
And just like deku aoe attacks, if naruto and his clones fire tbb it's wraps

Deku would sense the moment before any of the clones transform back to normal or begin to do anything and immediately respond before they do. And that’s assuming that them hiding wouldn’t just trigger Danger Sense anyway if they’re all waiting for the precise moment to jump him, it’d be like sensing tiny bits of hostility all over the place. By the time whatever plan Naruto has cooked up is ready and the clones get it in their head to hurt Deku, he’s already getting ready to either gtfo or do another omnidirectional attack.

Tailed Beast Bombs are immediately getting the Gearshift treatment cause that implies that the Kurama avatar is being used, which would trigger his “oh hell no” senses. Also Deku has high enough travel speed with Fa Jin to literally jump out of the way before the explosion of a tbb hits him, or just activate Gearshift and do the same. He can survive a Tailed Beast Bomb either way, especially if he coats himself in Blackwhip, but by that point in the fight he should already be in Gearshift and shouldn’t worry about getting hit by anything.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Deku would sense the moment before any of the clones transform back to normal or begin to do anything and immediately respond before they do. And that’s assuming that them hiding wouldn’t just trigger Danger Sense anyway if they’re all waiting for the precise moment to jump him, it’d be like sensing tiny bits of hostility all over the place. By the time whatever plan Naruto has cooked up is ready and the clones get it in their head to hurt Deku, he’s already getting ready to either gtfo or do another omnidirectional attack.

Tailed Beast Bombs are immediately getting the Gearshift treatment cause that implies that the Kurama avatar is being used, which would trigger his “oh hell no” senses. Also Deku has high enough travel speed with Fa Jin to literally jump out of the way before the explosion of a tbb hits him, or just activate Gearshift and do the same. He can survive a Tailed Beast Bomb either way, especially if he coats himself in Blackwhip, but by that point in the fight he should already be in Gearshift and shouldn’t worry about getting hit by anything.

1. If naruto could get around the rinnengan then it would have no issue with getting around deku sensing it.
2. Danger Sense doesn't work like that. It would not trigger until the clones want to attack. Which by then he is surrounded
3. Tailed beast bombs can be shot hundreds of kilometers away
4. No he isn't surviving a tailed beast bomb. Definitely not surviving something 4x his durability

 

[Smashtwig]

I feel like I've addressed all of the points made even after my comment, but maybe I'll say it again



The clones would be detected as rubble but that's not the point, we're (well, at least i) not arguing that Deku would get snuck, but again, the more things he has to address the more overwhelming its going to have to be on Deku's side, Danger Sense is this stabbing sensation in his head, so he's constantly putting his brain to work just trying to figure out where the attacks are coming from like which piece of rubble is a clone- is a naruto gonna just spawn on me? What about underground? etc. That is a lot of mental steps that your brain has to go through to make good deductions (also dawg that old man gran cracky sucker aint all that even i can predict his old fart ID WIN)

Any logical person at this point, even Deku would realize that the clones can come out of literally anywhere, and it's pointless to use so much brain power to figure it out and just hit everything, and start swinging that Blackwhip everywhere and see if you can get out of these. The issue with that strategy is that you're limiting yourself into basically one plan, whereas Naruto has just much more different ways to approach a problem- I can see a Tailed Beast Bomb making Deku have a panic attack and try to get into an area where Naruto wants him to be by transforming clones into Rasenshuriken while he's firing the beast bomb and lead Deku to a place where he's too busy to dodge everything else to... y'know- dodge. Eventually it just comes to a point where Deku has nowhere to dodge and just... HAS to resort to AoE Blackwhip would could be dangerous when a Naruto say, pops right from the ground or out of thin air right after Deku finishes swinging

Naruto has immense control over the battlefield here. And these clones can honestly take more damage that you think as they're actually able to take alot of punishment as seen with the one that fought several Kage back to back- they aren't just balloons- afterall, the same aura that covers each clone would be similar to the one's that helped fodder ninja tank the Ten Tails Cataclysm attack with no damage. That and the fact that they've been used as blocking tools before + Avatar Arms as shields and Naruto's got a solid defense that can reduce damage from blitzing as well.

The argument about how Naruto has to approach Deku is uh... actually just completely false, Deku has to approach Naruto, through an entire army of clones that can actually withstand a lot more than just one hit (see the one that fought multiple Kages), through a forcefield- all of which would reduce damage of his momentum based strikes along the way. This is because Deku has the curse of knowledge, well, intelligence in this case to understand that Naruto or his clones has to sit still to activate Sage Mode, thus if Deku decides to wait for Naruto's attack, Naruto can just... sit there and be a-okay with the time Deku has given him to enter Sage Mode and have the more than likely AP Advantage, Dura Negating Frog Kata that has that BS invisible aura strikes, etc.

im ngl, i really dont care about the poison stuff, so sure whatever- inner organ hitting Frog Kata can do just fine then (that I don't think Deku will expect considering he would (like any other normal person) logically just think the danger comes from the punch, not some non-existent aura that has zero evidence of existing

Honestly I still think that Deku's best argument is just going for the Speed Blitz which Naruto could be able to match depending on how much Chakra he puts into his feet... or the plot bs ability of "substitution lol" and Deku just hits a log or smth

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I feel like I've addressed all of the points made even after my comment, but maybe I'll say it again



The clones would be detected as rubble but that's not the point, we're (well, at least i) not arguing that Deku would get snuck, but again, the more things he has to address the more overwhelming its going to have to be on Deku's side, Danger Sense is this stabbing sensation in his head, so he's constantly putting his brain to work just trying to figure out where the attacks are coming from like which piece of rubble is a clone- is a naruto gonna just spawn on me? What about underground? etc. That is a lot of mental steps that your brain has to go through to make good deductions (also dawg that old man gran cracky sucker aint all that even i can predict his old fart ID WIN)

Any logical person at this point, even Deku would realize that the clones can come out of literally anywhere, and it's pointless to use so much brain power to figure it out and just hit everything, and start swinging that Blackwhip everywhere and see if you can get out of these. The issue with that strategy is that you're limiting yourself into basically one plan, whereas Naruto has just much more different ways to approach a problem- I can see a Tailed Beast Bomb making Deku have a panic attack and try to get into an area where Naruto wants him to be by transforming clones into Rasenshuriken while he's firing the beast bomb and lead Deku to a place where he's too busy to dodge everything else to... y'know- dodge. Eventually it just comes to a point where Deku has nowhere to dodge and just... HAS to resort to AoE Blackwhip would could be dangerous when a Naruto say, pops right from the ground or out of thin air right after Deku finishes swinging

Naruto has immense control over the battlefield here. And these clones can honestly take more damage that you think as they're actually able to take alot of punishment as seen with the one that fought several Kage back to back- they aren't just balloons- afterall, the same aura that covers each clone would be similar to the one's that helped fodder ninja tank the Ten Tails Cataclysm attack with no damage. That and the fact that they've been used as blocking tools before + Avatar Arms as shields and Naruto's got a solid defense that can reduce damage from blitzing as well.

The argument about how Naruto has to approach Deku is uh... actually just completely false, Deku has to approach Naruto, through an entire army of clones that can actually withstand a lot more than just one hit (see the one that fought multiple Kages), through a forcefield- all of which would reduce damage of his momentum based strikes along the way. This is because Deku has the curse of knowledge, well, intelligence in this case to understand that Naruto or his clones has to sit still to activate Sage Mode, thus if Deku decides to wait for Naruto's attack, Naruto can just... sit there and be a-okay with the time Deku has given him to enter Sage Mode and have the more than likely AP Advantage, Dura Negating Frog Kata that has that BS invisible aura strikes, etc.

im ngl, i really dont care about the poison stuff, so sure whatever- inner organ hitting Frog Kata can do just fine then (that I don't think Deku will expect considering he would (like any other normal person) logically just think the danger comes from the punch, not some non-existent aura that has zero evidence of existing

Honestly I still think that Deku's best argument is just going for the Speed Blitz which Naruto could be able to match depending on how much Chakra he puts into his feet... or the plot bs ability of "substitution lol" and Deku just hits a log or smth

So your argument about the clones is that Deku will sense all of them transformed and such so he’ll… not do anything about them? What, do you think if he senses danger from the rubble and area that he’s just going to stand still and go “oh no what do I do!” Like an idiot? He’s either going to shoot an Air Force blast at one of the dangerous areas or keep well the **** away from the dangerous areas. Deku LITERALLY has the ability to superhumanly multitask his thoughts, he makes more complex deductions and ideas than you’re implying off of far simpler ideas. His thought process doesn’t end at “man where are the clones,” it ends at “what do I do next.” He doesn’t just fumble under pressure like a rookie.

Also: Deku has 8 other people in his head giving him advice and direction. They would ALL come to conclusions based on what is happening. It’s an entire council of planning in his brain, he’s not doing all the thinking solo, and it’s not like his options become 0 just cause he has to be cautious of where the clones are Deku LIVES off doing those EXACT kinds of thought processes, idk what you mean that he would panic from having to do so.

Swing Blackwhip? Why? At most he’d use Blackwhip against a singular area of danger and discover a clone, but he doesn’t use Blackwhip as his ranged attack. His ranged attacks are massive wind blast AoE’s that scrape up the ground and eclipse mountains. Blackwhip is his WORST AoE option. If he’s led into a trap in anyway, he’s going to use Gearshift and proceed to freeze frame every attack coming his way, then destroy everything while Naruto is unable to even process what is happening.

You misunderstand: Naruto is 100% the one to approach Deku because that’s just how he is. As far as Naruto and Kurama are concerned, Deku isn’t overwhelmingly powerful than them, and his attacks are a type of wind jutsu that blows away everything and hurts. Naruto is not a guy who sits down and waits unless he’s charging Sage Mode, which he will do if he feels he has to. His first thought if anything is to spam Rasenshuriken’s from his clones. And why would he not try to sneak him? He has no idea about Danger Sense or Deku’s intelligence, clones and rasenshurikens are his go to move in most cases for this state.

The very first move of the fight comes from Naruto who makes clones. Deku sees the clones, uses a massive AoE attack to hurt them all, which he can spam with 0 cost to himself. Naruto sees this and devises a plan to enter Sage Mode while sneaking Deku because he has no idea of what he is capable of and sneaking people is his go to move. Deku senses Naruto and his clones through any transformations based on their hostility when going for attacks, understanding they can camouflage or transform too, so he realizes he either goes all out or gets cooked by this weird ninja guy. He uses another AoE or an Air Force blast or Blackwhip to expose another clone, confirming his theory, then likely using smokescreen. Both of them can sense through smokescreen, so Naruto springs his plan to hit Deku with a bunch of attacks or lead him into an area to hit him with a bunch of attacks, wherein Deku activates Gearshift and destroys everything faster than Naruto can even perceive.

And no, Naruto is never matching the Gearshift blitz unless he can not only do a faster Shunshin than he has ever done in his life, but keep it going constantly for 20 minutes straight… just for Deku to wrap Blackwhip across his own body and now be able to keep it going longer.

 

[Smashtwig]

I think we both completely missed each other's points like... entirely wtf


I never said Deku wouldn't do anything like an idiot (even though I personally think bro is not Sherlock Holmes), I said that the mental calculations he would do in his head. Whether you can multitask or not you're still going through multiple steps all in the same brain, that is precious processing time being used up before he gets to the "okay they're in X Place, now what do I do" step. Whereas Naruto with the battle in his control doesn't really have to think or worry as much aside from watching out for the direct attacks that come from Deku (as far as I know I don't think he has attacks that don't start from his own body)

And if we're talking about how many brains there are- there's 2000 clones each with their own brain and thought process versus Dekus 8 Brains trying to figure out where the clones at, which ones to prioritize, which attacks should they address first, etc. Yes having multiple brains works but also they all have to relay that to Deku, who then has to process all of that mental stuff and then decide the best course of action

Eventually, no amount of intelligent answers is going to beat "just hit them all 4head" because that is objectively the best thing he can do over trying to calculate each and every one of the clones locations and attacks, etc. Naruto on the other hand just needs to worry about one dude, which allows him to do all the strategy making. Either way, the discussion can't really go much further than that because Izuku is already doing the most optimal thing (aside from deciding to speed blitz)

The approaching question uh... well if you're talking in character, sure Naruto would approach, but I'm saying that he can easily switch gears if he notices that Deku is being defensive and Naruto wants Deku to come to him for whatever reason, I'm just trying to demonstrate that Naruto just has the fight in the palm of his hand and he chooses how the fight goes

Could have sworn Blackwhip was mentioned as the AoE thing, but if you're talking about the air punches I really don't think those will do much against the clones that are again, much more durable than most think (see earlier posts), especially if they grab a Sage Mode boost. I think this is the case because those air punches would obviously not be as strong as the punches that create them (if I recall Deku and Bakugo vs All Might, the boys were not really that battered by the air punch, at least, relatively to when they actually get punched)


Regardless, I'll leave this to the Naruto guys to argue what speed Shuishin can reach, though I'm pretty sure Naruto can do it for like... a day (see literally the entire 2nd half of the war) just because of the immense amount of Stamina and Chakra he has. This conversation really can't go forward until that is answered.

 

[Robo432343]

Is Naruto more skilled than Deku here

 

[Smashtwig]

Is Naruto more skilled than Deku here

Considering that King didn't address the martial skill part... I guess? Well, I was arguing in martial skill rather than whatever other kind of skills like predictions or being able to throw a rock at a candle light 40km away or whatever

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I think we both completely missed each other's points like... entirely wtf


I never said Deku wouldn't do anything like an idiot (even though I personally think bro is not Sherlock Holmes), I said that the mental calculations he would do in his head. Whether you can multitask or not you're still going through multiple steps all in the same brain, that is precious processing time being used up before he gets to the "okay they're in X Place, now what do I do" step. Whereas Naruto with the battle in his control doesn't really have to think or worry as much aside from watching out for the direct attacks that come from Deku (as far as I know I don't think he has attacks that don't start from his own body)

And if we're talking about how many brains there are- there's 2000 clones each with their own brain and thought process versus Dekus 8 Brains trying to figure out where the clones at, which ones to prioritize, which attacks should they address first, etc. Yes having multiple brains works but also they all have to relay that to Deku, who then has to process all of that mental stuff and then decide the best course of action

Eventually, no amount of intelligent answers is going to beat "just hit them all 4head" because that is objectively the best thing he can do over trying to calculate each and every one of the clones locations and attacks, etc. Naruto on the other hand just needs to worry about one dude, which allows him to do all the strategy making. Either way, the discussion can't really go much further than that because Izuku is already doing the most optimal thing (aside from deciding to speed blitz)

The approaching question uh... well if you're talking in character, sure Naruto would approach, but I'm saying that he can easily switch gears if he notices that Deku is being defensive and Naruto wants Deku to come to him for whatever reason, I'm just trying to demonstrate that Naruto just has the fight in the palm of his hand and he chooses how the fight goes

Could have sworn Blackwhip was mentioned as the AoE thing, but if you're talking about the air punches I really don't think those will do much against the clones that are again, much more durable than most think (see earlier posts), especially if they grab a Sage Mode boost. I think this is the case because those air punches would obviously not be as strong as the punches that create them (if I recall Deku and Bakugo vs All Might, the boys were not really that battered by the air punch, at least, relatively to when they actually get punched)


Regardless, I'll leave this to the Naruto guys to argue what speed Shuishin can reach, though I'm pretty sure Naruto can do it for like... a day (see literally the entire 2nd half of the war) just because of the immense amount of Stamina and Chakra he has. This conversation really can't go forward until that is answered.

Naruto doesn’t have a mental link with his clones where they all talk to each other, he only gets info when they poof. And fighting defensively is literally a benefit, it means he can respond to Naruto’s attacks because he’s prepared for them. Also, Fa Jin + Air Pressure is enough to damage people that stomp Deku in AP because it’s a 5x boost, his air attacks are definitely capable of destroying clones. And Deku is not losing time because he’s thinking, he can do literally all the thinking you could possibly come up with from the information he has within less than a couple seconds. Vestige conversations occur on the same wavelength of thought so they also are not wasting time.

Blackwhip can be an AoE attack if he sweeps with it but that wouldn’t do much other than maybe grab some clones and reveal that he has that ability in the first place. His best bet for massive clone armies is gonna be Fa Jin + Air Pressure which he can build up in seconds.

We already had the shunshin discussion, it does not give the same level of speed amplification that Gearshift does. And he did not have Shunshin active for several minutes straight in I believe any point in time ever, it’s a single movement ability to get somewhere fast, not a constantly active speed amp like Gearshift.

Is Naruto more skilled than Deku here

In hand to hand, which they will likely never get into, Naruto is better cause formal training, Deku is more of a brawler whose skill comes from his analytical predictions and intelligence. In any other area they are relatively even outside of Naruto having more abilities to deceive and trick, and Deku would sense all of them before they happen.

This discussion doesn’t really care for skill, as inevitably Naruto CAN create a situation to hit Deku if they both don’t do anything but the most basic abilities possible for a long time. Thats why this all comes down to “can Naruto survive when Deku uses Gearshift.”

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Considering that King didn't address the martial skill part... I guess? Well, I was arguing in martial skill rather than whatever other kind of skills like predictions or being able to throw a rock at a candle light 40km away or whatever

Martial skill isn’t gonna much matter when Deku is already in a situation where he would use Gearshift. He saves it for Shigaraki, and the instant he is fighting him, it’s literally the first thing he does.

Naruto is even stronger than Shigaraki and has clones. Deku not activating Gearshift immediately is honestly out of character going by his showings, but I’m going with the interpretation that he’d at least wait a bit before using it.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Naruto FRA

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So we just gonna start an FRA train when Gearshift has no current debunk, alright then.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

So we just gonna start an FRA train when Gearshift has no current debunk, alright then.

You failed to convince me but sure, start complaining for a single vote