It's Time For 8-C Batman Again

[Rex_Eckles]

Gotta find something for those who don't scale.

Which ones specifically?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Characters with line are the ones I don't think should scale to 8-C

Spoiler: characters

• Green Arrow (Post-Crisis)
• Batman (Post-Crisis)
• Bane (Post-Crisis)
• The Joker (Post-Crisis)
• Catwoman (Post-Crisis)
• Red Hood (Post-Crisis)
• Cassandra Cain (Post-Crisis)
• Deadshot (Floyd Lawton)
• Harley Quinn (Post-Crisis)
• Nightwing (Post-Crisis)
• Poison Ivy (Post-Crisis)
• Black Canary (Post-Crisis)
• Killer Croc (Post-Crisis)
• Robin (Damian Wayne)
• Red Robin (Post-Crisis)
• Stephanie Brown (Post-Crisis)
• Barbara Gordon (Post-Crisis)
• Batwoman (Post-Crisis)
• KGBeast (Post-Crisis)
• Lex Luthor (Post-Crisis)
• Captain Boomerang Jr. (Post-Crisis)
• Katana (Post-Crisis)
• The Penguin (Post-Crisis)
• Ra's Al Ghul (Post-Crisis)
• Lady Shiva (Post-Crisis)
• Mr. Freeze (Post-Crisis)
• Anarky (Post-Crisis)
• Scarecrow (Post-Crisis)
• Two-Face (Post-Crisis)
• Batman (One Million)
• Riddler (Post-Crisis)
• Hush (Post-Crisis)
• Onomatopoeia (Post-Crisis)
• Black Mask (Post-Crisis)
• Firefly (Garfield Lynns) (Post-Crisis)
• Killer Moth (Post-Crisis)
• White Canary (very bad profile)
• Crazy Quilt (Post-Crisis)
• Catman (Post-Crisis)
• Question (Renee Montoya) (Post-Crisis)
• Alfred Pennyworth (Post-Crisis)
• Prometheus (Post-Crisis)
• Batman (Thomas Wayne)
• Owlman (Post-Crisis)
• Firestorm (Pre-Crisis)
• Captain Atom (Post-Crisis)
• I, Vampire (Pre-Flashpoint)
• David Cain (Post-Crisis)
• Karate Kid (Earth-Prime) (Armor help...)
• The Question (Vic Sage) (Post-Crisis)

[*]

These

 

[KLOL506]

I assume the strike through means the edits are applied?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I assume the strike through means the edits are applied?

No, it’s characters that don’t scale.

 

[KLOL506]

No, it’s characters that don’t scale.

Ah.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

These

Didn't Red-Hood force Bruce to fight all out in Under the Red Hood?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Didn't Red-Hood force Bruce to fight all out in Under the Red Hood?

All out most likely not, but I’m not opposed to Red Hood scaling since he also fought Nightwing.

 

[AthelChan]

batgos

 

[DaReaperMan]

All out most likely not, but I’m not opposed to Red Hood scaling since he also fought Nightwing.

Also, I'm pretty sure Red Hood ******* bodied Damian the moment he got serious

 

[M3X_2.0]

Also, I'm pretty sure Red Hood ******* bodied Damian the moment he got serious

Well yeah that’s the bare minimum let’s be honest lol. PC Damian is very trash.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

All out most likely not

I thought there was a direct statement from Bruce himself? I don't have it on hand though.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I thought there was a direct statement from Bruce himself? I don't have it on hand though.

It’s been a few years since I’ve it, mind checking that?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

It’s been a few years since I’ve it, mind checking that?

I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

In Under the Red Hood #13, after initially opting for non-lethally incapacitating Jason, Bruce states that he's playing rough and he can't hold back against him. They proceed to have a bloody fight.

 

[M3X_2.0]

In Under the Red Hood #13, after initially opting for non-lethally incapacitating Jason, Bruce states that he's playing rough and he can't hold back against him. They proceed to have a bloody fight.

Then he scales 100%.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Then he scales 100%.

All in a day's work!

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Batwoman's profile links these, anyone got context?

 

[Un_Maruchan_Crudo]

I don't usually participate in VSBW threads, but since this has to do with Batman (and I'm a huge fan of the character), I think it's worth posting this here.

I've calculated (On my own wiki) nearly all the noteworthy feats from the Post-Crisis era that I could find; we're talking about 48 AP calculations ranging from 9-B+ to 8-B. I don’t expect you to use my calculations (Obviusly), but since I’ve included the specific comic book source for each feat, I think this is a good place to look for feats and 8-C tier reinforcement.

8-C Alfred agenda on top

 

[M3X_2.0]

I don't usually participate in VSBW threads, but since this has to do with Batman (and I'm a huge fan of the character), I think it's worth posting this here.

I've calculated (On my own wiki) nearly all the noteworthy feats from the Post-Crisis era that I could find; we're talking about 48 AP calculations ranging from 9-B+ to 8-B. I don’t expect you to use my calculations (Obviusly), but since I’ve included the specific comic book source for each feat, I think this is a good place to look for feats and 8-C tier reinforcement.

8-C Alfred agenda on top

I’ll gladly take a look when I can, probably tomorrow night or monday. Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I don't usually participate in VSBW threads, but since this has to do with Batman (and I'm a huge fan of the character), I think it's worth posting this here.

I've calculated (On my own wiki) nearly all the noteworthy feats from the Post-Crisis era that I could find; we're talking about 48 AP calculations ranging from 9-B+ to 8-B. I don’t expect you to use my calculations (Obviusly), but since I’ve included the specific comic book source for each feat, I think this is a good place to look for feats and 8-C tier reinforcement.

8-C Alfred agenda on top

Your Blockbuster feat is from 1987, wouldn't that make it Post-Crisis?

 

[Un_Maruchan_Crudo]

Your Blockbuster feat is from 1987, wouldn't that make it Post-Crisis?

I think you're actually right

 

[M3X_2.0]

I think you're actually right

I'm taking a look at the calcs and they're mostly fine, I won't go one by one but I'm giving all of them a look. Funnily enough, I have all those feats here, I just haven't calced most because I can't exactly prove that Batman did tank the explosion or escaped before. I liked this specific calc of yours that would make Tim 9-A according to our system. I've seen this one spammed like crazy when I read it, 0.5 tons for Batman seems fine as well, and it's an AP feat which is better than relying on durability only.

For this Deadshot calc I believe you should still calc his durability, it should probably yield 9-A results. Any other calcs you have in mind? We need stuff for the characters crossed here:

These

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I assume it is not acceptable to cross-scale from Silver and Golden Age Batman calcs?

 

[M3X_2.0]

I assume it is not acceptable to cross-scale from Silver and Golden Age Batman calcs?

All the ones I linked are Post Crisis

 

[Rex_Eckles]

All the ones I linked are Post Crisis

Yeah, I know, I was just wondering in general.

 

[Un_Maruchan_Crudo]

I'm taking a look at the calcs and they're mostly fine, I won't go one by one but I'm giving all of them a look. Funnily enough, I have all those feats here, I just haven't calced most because I can't exactly prove that Batman did tank the explosion or escaped before. I liked this specific calc of yours that would make Tim 9-A according to our system. I've seen this one spammed like crazy when I read it, 0.5 tons for Batman seems fine as well, and it's an AP feat which is better than relying on durability only.

For this Deadshot calc I believe you should still calc his durability, it should probably yield 9-A results. Any other calcs you have in mind? We need stuff for the characters crossed here:

Nice nice. For the Deadshot calc, i think it would barely change considering he's...30 or 50 cm away from the guy that exploded, but let's calc it.

Deadshoot on the Post-Crisis was 6'1'' and 202 lbs, so, 1.86 M and 92 Kg.

• Á=((0.007184*(92)^0.425*((1.86)*100)^0.725)*0.45)=0.97631 m2

Assuming he was 0.5 Meters away from the explosion;
Low End

• R=(0.914725 )/((4*pi*(0.5)^2)/2)*(0.97631)=0.568536576 Tons, still 8-C

High End

• R=(0.914725 )/((4*pi*(0.5)^2)/2)*(3.0508)=1.77658 Tons, 8-C+

So, pretty sure this is a fine feat.

I assume it is not acceptable to cross-scale from Silver and Golden Age Batman calcs?

Batman has somekind of Cross-Scaling like that, most of his mainline versions are physically similar. (Except for the Rebirth and foward).

Batman from the Silver Age/Earth 1 crossed paths with Earth 2 Robin on The Brave and the Bold Vol 1 Issue #182. He tanked a kick from this robin so these two would be likely equal or at least relative, that's for sure. There wasn't pretty much a reboot or smt between silver and dark age. This cronology here explains it a bit. I'm not totally sure if it would be valid to do it anyway. Maybe there is some scaling on the Convergence event, but i'm not sure.

There's also the fact that Post-Crisis Batman and Post-Flashpoint aren't physically THAT apart. As Superman states in Superman: Lois and Clark, Issue #5, Pages 4-6, the only physical difference is their speed, so calcs from "An early new 52"(?) should also be scaled to a late post-crisis Batman.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Batman from the Silver Age/Earth 1 crossed paths with Earth 2 Robin on The Brave and the Bold Vol 1 Issue #182. He tanked a kick from this robin so these two would be likely equal or at least relative, that's for sure. There wasn't pretty much a reboot or smt between silver and dark age. This cronology here explains it a bit. I'm not totally sure if it would be valid to do it anyway. Maybe there is some scaling on the Convergence event, but i'm not sure.

Aye, we've also seen non-supers from both Earths 1 and 2 being relative, fighting similar enemies and all that. I'm just wondering about cross-Crisis events.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Nice nice. For the Deadshot calc, i think it would barely change considering he's...30 or 50 cm away from the guy that exploded, but let's calc it.

Deadshoot on the Post-Crisis was 6'1'' and 202 lbs, so, 1.86 M and 92 Kg.

• Á=((0.007184*(92)^0.425*((1.86)*100)^0.725)*0.45)=0.97631 m2

Assuming he was 0.5 Meters away from the explosion;
Low End

• R=(0.914725 )/((4*pi*(0.5)^2)/2)*(0.97631)=0.568536576 Tons, still 8-C

High End

• R=(0.914725 )/((4*pi*(0.5)^2)/2)*(3.0508)=1.77658 Tons, 8-C+

Make sure to blog that, it's gold!

 

[Un_Maruchan_Crudo]

Aye, we've also seen non-supers from both Earths 1 and 2 being relative, fighting similar enemies and all that. I'm just wondering about cross-Crisis events.

Don't remember anything aside from references to the silver age, so i'm not sure if it could apply, it's a shame.

Make sure to blog that, it's gold!

Done, the specific and more accurrate values barely are above what i calculated here, but it seems it's a 8-C feat either way.

I've been searching for some more feats, but i've found nothing more than 9-B to 9-A ones, bigger feats are scarce

 

[Un_Maruchan_Crudo]

• Bane withstands being seing throught a house - Superman/Batman, Issue #54, Page 18
• Firefly, during the 1'000'000 event (Or something like that? Don't remember exactly), tanks (Somewhat, jajaj) the explosion of a great amount of fuel, producing a tremor - Detective Comics (1937), Issue #727, Pages 6-8 (Couldn't calc this one, bad perspectives).
• Black Wind, a metahuman stronger than Cassie, can produce a great tornado that reach the clouds - Batgirl (2000), Issue #44, Pages 17-18, this is scalable since it's state he can use the strength and speed of the wind(?) (Issue #44, Page 5), and Batman can fight against him (Issue #43, Pages 20-21)

 

[Hellbeast]

Does PFP Batman upscale in strength from PC Batman? Sorry ik it's offtopic but if this changes PC then I wanna know if it affects that scaling too

Iirc he’s described as younger and faster by Superman with equivalent skills so maybe? It’s also worth noting that he, as well as others, are currently “composites” of themselves with all their history having happened and Bruce has vaguely had the understanding since New 52 that his big moments like Knightfall happened and only got stronger since Dionysium came into it.

So you have an outright case by Infinite Frontier and a potential case by the New 52

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Can someone explain to me how Batman holding back or being caught off guard reduces his durability?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Can someone explain to me how Batman holding back or being caught off guard reduces his durability?

It doesn't, but most of the time they don't do sufficient damage to warrant a scaling with him, given how in many instances he completely overwhelm his villains causally and effortlessly, one shot them, etc.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

It doesn't, but most of the time they don't do sufficient damage to warrant a scaling with him, given how in many instances he completely overwhelm his villains causally and effortlessly, one shot them, etc.

I'm fine with characters who aren't portrayed as skilled fighters not scaling to him physically.

But like, a big part of the characters you crossed out are portrayed as skilled fighters capable of hurting Batman.

I agree they're weaker and less skilled, but I think they at least deserve a downscale instead of being stuck in the hell of 9C.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm fine with characters who aren't portrayed as skilled fighters not scaling to him physically.

But like, a big part of the characters you crossed out are portrayed as skilled fighters capable of hurting Batman.

I agree they're weaker and less skilled, but I think they at least deserve a downscale instead of being stuck in the hell of 9C.

Batman is stronger and more skilled than them, and most of the times he holds back, let himself get hit or simply is not hurt by their attacks at all, like someone like the Riddler who probably would break his hands hitting Batman. But thanks to @Un_Maruchan_Crudo they now have their own feats to scale to.

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Batman is stronger and more skilled than them, and most of the times he holds back, let himself get hit or simply is not hurt by their attacks at all, like someone like the Riddler who probably would break his hands hitting Batman. But thanks to @Un_Maruchan_Crudo they now have their own feats to scale to.

I'm fine with the Riddler not scaling, but are we seriously treating Jason, Damian, Tim, Barbara, Selina, Kate, and Steph as if they're so weak that the rest of the Bat-family (and people who scale to them) is invulnerable to them, even though they've hurt them on multiple occasions?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm fine with the Riddler not scaling, but are we seriously treating Jason, Damian, Tim, Barbara, Selina, Kate, and Steph as if they're so weak that the rest of the Bat-family (and people who scale to them) is invulnerable to them, even though they've hurt them on multiple occasions?

Jason is scaling, and notably Jason also holds back a bit, and when he gets serious he's beating people like Damian black and blue.

It's to the point where the only member of the Batfamily to scare him is Cass... who is the strongest member by a decent margin.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm fine with the Riddler not scaling, but are we seriously treating Jason, Damian, Tim, Barbara, Selina, Kate, and Steph as if they're so weak that the rest of the Bat-family (and people who scale to them) is invulnerable to them, even though they've hurt them on multiple occasions?

Yes, actually. Not Jason though, he has scaling with Nightwing, but I don't see the issue with having Damian, Tim, Barbara, Selina and the others not scaling to Batman, considering they don't have feats and no scaling indication with him. I don't think that's so absurd to say "are we seriously doing that??" like Damian isn't just a kid compared to Batman, trained or not, and has no business scaling to him considering Nightwing completely moggs Damian in training and treats him like an amateur

 

[MrSpockVulcan]

Yes, actually. Not Jason though, he has scaling with Nightwing, but I don't see the issue with having Damian, Tim, Barbara, Selina and the others not scaling to Batman, considering they don't have feats and no scaling indication with him. I don't think that's so absurd to say "are we seriously doing that??" like Damian isn't just a kid compared to Batman, trained or not, and has no business scaling to him considering Nightwing completely moggs Damian in training and treats him like an amateur

Yes, they are weaker, but it's strange that it's to the point of them being invulnerable:

 

[M3X_2.0]

If we are treating everyone who makes Batman bleed as scaling to him than we might we make everyone 8-C, and I mean everyone even random thugs and regular dudes. Which is obviously not happening.