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This CRT is going to be focused upon 4 major issues I have found with our current ratings for the D&D verse, namely Challenge Rating-scaling, Elder Evil calcs, Dragon calcs, and Elemental Prince calcs/Region Effect calcs in general.
Issue #1: Challenge Rating and You
To begin, we are presented with the first glaring issue in the Dungeons and Dragons(heretoafter referred to simply as D&D) profiles on our wiki. The term 'Challenge Rating'(heretoafter referred to simply as CR) is used, broadly, to describe a monster or group of monsters and contextualize the difficulty an average party of 4 Player Character(heretoafter referred to as PCs) adventurers should expect in a fight with said monster/group (Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5E page 48) . Simply put, the monster's CR=the average level of a group of 4 Players; a CR 17 Monster can be a reasonable challenge for 4 17th level Characters. The Dungeon Master's Guide is pretty explicit on the point that CR=Party Level is a 'Challenging' fight (Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5E page 49), and it is also noted that an average adventuring party can handle at least 6 such 'Challenging' encounters per adventuring day (Dungeon Master's Guide 5E page 85) .
Now, where does an issue come in from this simple basic set of guidelines? The answer is as simple as the guidelines: our wiki presumes that a PC's Level is directly equivalent to CR.
Anyone astute will immediately note a problem here from the basic definition of CR; CR is used to measure monsters, for one, and for two it's measuring a monster against FOUR PCs. How could a Level 17 PCs reasonably fight 4 Level 17 PCs and consider it a 'Challenging' fight?
They cannot, and the Dungeon Master's Guide actually states as such. Explicitly, a group of monsters add their respective CR together to equal their Effective Level rating to determine their collective CR (Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5E page 49). So now we are at quite the impasse: per our wiki, a single level 17 PC is equated to a CR of 17, meaning they can reasonably challenge 4 Level 17 PCs (which would be 4 CR 17 monsters), so let's plug these numbers into some CR calculators and check the results shall we:
From edition 3.5e
From edition 5e
Oops.
This simple illustration demonstrates the most basic, inherent flaw in our system of measuring relative power for the D&D verse: we presume that if a character's profile lists the character as Level 17, they can reasonably 'challenge' a CR 17, when they provably do not scale at all. If you don't believe this is wrong based on the logic and calculators, I am at a loss at this point.
Pre-Emptive Arguments
For an illustrative example highlighting the entirety of my Issue #1: Drizzt's current profile states he is 'Comparable to Imix', an Elemental Prince who rules over the Plane of Fire, and is therefore 6-C. He's not, at all, remotely. The only thing that scales is his Level is around Imix's CR. They have never interacted. Drizzt has never demonstrated a feat of the level Imix is at, except by utilizing a powerful magical scimitar that destroyed the soul of demons (conveniently for Drizzt). Drizzt has busted no Islands. Drizzt has failed to kill nameless Orcs in combat with a single hit, Drizzt has consistently struggled to even meaningfully wound a Level 9 Orc (Obould) in single combat and been near-fatally wounded by him in return, yet is Island-Busting. Measure by ACTUAL FEATS, not by meaningless drivel that scales in a nonsensical manner.
We need a rehaul of the D&D verse or else we are simply, woefully, inaccurate as a wiki and are patently abiding the spread of misinformation.
In summation: CR is an awful litmus for measuring characters against one another, it allows for recursive infinite-scaling when applied on the wiki, it is not meant to be applied to PCs and still maintain accuracy at all, and would result in practically anyone from D&D to scale to Level 20 PCs due to Natural 20s.
Issue #2: Elder Evils Calcs
For my second issue, I am going to evaluate the currently-accepted calcs that a wonderful Calc Group member, Mr. Bambu, has created. Please note, this is not an attack of his personal person as I immensely respect him as evidenced by our extended discourses on the wiki.
For starters, this blog: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/D&D_Calcs:_Elder_Evils_and_Steamy_Bois has numerous issues in its presumptions and how it handles the calcs, as well as this separate one for Ragnorra: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...and_Dragons_Calc:_Ragnorra,_the_Blazing_Death
Zargon is not manifesting the weather. Unrest and imbalance amongst the gods is. The storm calc does not scale to him, and even if it did it would upgrade everyone of his level by an entire tier (Tier 6 to Tier 5) or higher to Tier 4. At worst, it's just mistaken. At best, it's an outlier. Even if we ignore this objection of mine, the calc factually does not take into account every previous level of weather before hand, specifically the neecssary Stronger Sign that is continental+ in size (Elder Evils page 145)
Essentially, for Father Llymic the presumption of 'instant global glacier' is pretty asinine when analyzed in-context. There are several temperature changes prior to his awakening, and the cold generated comes from his body's explicit physics-defying interaction with light (Elder Evils page 32). Note that it's cold he generates, not even pure ice. The calc as-is literally is not usable for him, at base, unless super heavily re-worked.
In summation: Zargon's calc ignores how he's not actually the one generating the feat; Llymic's calc ignores all the buildup context and cannot be directly attributed to Llymic himself and even allowing for that, he explicitly defies physics so measuring it is weird; Ragnarro is obliterated by the feat she allegedly scales to; Mephisto is fine; Phaethon is fine but should include a more reasonable low-ball imho.
Issue #3: Elemental Princes And Their Calcs
For starters, the link given as proof to support the claims made in the calcs is broken, c'mon Bambu (I trust the quotations though), but here is the blog in question being analyzed: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...D_Calc:_Elemental_Princes_and_Terrain_Effects
Secondly, the heat wave takes a total of 20 days to reach Sahara-like temps wherein water sources are fully dried up; at the first stage, grass still exists but simply browns. I see no reason whatsoever for this calc to be taken at face value since it utilizes the highest-end temps of the Sahara from the word 'go' for Imix's power. It is massively exaggerative and ignores timeframes as well as reasonability in low-ends.
As a final point not related to any individual princes' calcs: every single prince, per the Princes of the Apocalypse descriptions for them, necessitates being either in their Home Plane (Fire, Water, Earth, Air) to gain a Regional Effect or must be inhabitating an elemental node of immense power already (for example, Yan-C-Bin inhabiting the Howling Caves in the adventure, which already explicitly possess immense elemental power prior to his being summoned into them [Princes of the Apocalypse, several pages, listed under each Princes Regional Effects, page 222 for Yan-C-bin])
In summation: Almost all of these calcs either have an issue with a sphere being presumed with zero reason for it to be so since it's affecting only the surface of the planet around each Prince's lair thus should be a short cylindrical prism, and most of the calcs downright ignore that the effects are over time and take quite some charging up. I do have one more issue with lairs in general but will save that for my final issue:
Issue #4: Dragon Calcs and Lair Effects
My qualms here aren't necessarily in the calcs themselves, by and large, but rather the presumptions on the creatures in question actively outputting energy such that the calc is sound. As always, blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/D&D_Calcs:_Dragons_in_Dungeons and let's dive in
Regional effects of Lairs are not an active, AP-scaleable effect. Regional effects of Lairs are an over-time thing that generate due to the latent magic of a powerful being spending much of their time in said lair (Monster Manual 5E page 11). Further supporting evidence of the Regional Effects not scaling to AP is that they can end over time upon the death of the being in question (Monster Manual 5E page 11); if it were an active power and active energy being pumped out by the creature in question, how on earth would it take 24 to 240 hours for them to stop putting forth that energy when they're dead? As proof, the blue dragon's storms take explicitly 1d10 days to abate (Monster Manual 5E page 92)and the precipitation, not blizzard, of the white dragon takes a full 24 hours to do so as well (Monster Manual 5E page 103) . No, it simply does not scale to potency since the creatures in question demonstrably are not willfully manipulating nor creating the effects. In fact, such legendary creatures do have specific Lair Actions that are entirely unrelated to the Regional Effects (Monster Manual 5E page 11) and are things they ca manipulate, further proving the point of a stark difference between the two. If Regional Effects were a thing the creature in question was outputting constantly, they would follow the creature; this is not the case, as if they did it would be included in the Monster's stat block in the Monster Manual, which it factually is not. The Princes also suffer from this demerit, since as noted above they must inhabit specialized elemental nodes for their regional effect to come into play, and all their own regional effects fade after 1d10 days post-banishment or defeat.
In summation: Regional Effects from Lairs are bogus to use for AP since it does not reasonably scale in any way, shape, or form and is a direct result of latent magic seeping into the area over an indeterminate time, and the White Dragon's calc is missing major context.
Conclusion And Propositio
At the end of this absurdly in-depth CRT, we find ourselves presented with an overwhelming mass of evidence that shows the D&D verse to be woefully inaccurate on the wiki and in dire need of revamping to make the claim of accuracy.
CR is dreadfully messy and not a good indicator of scaleable potential in any reasonable way, and utilizing it as such results in demonstrable infinite self-recursive scaling at worst, with exceptionally gross exaggeration of ability at best.
Elder Evils are fanciful and powerful but only at the height of their power and then only due to circumstance, not direct ability from themselves.
Elemental Princes are absurdly good at influencing the world around them, but only when given time to ramp up.
Dragons are potent lizards capable of massive magic influence, and this will always be a fact because it's Dungeons and Dragons.
Regional Effects are bunk and scaling from them relies on ignoring the context of how they work.
I propose a massive overhaul of the system for D&D since I have highlighted the several flaws of it herei, namely by utilizing solely objectively quantifiable feats for named characters similar to how Ao or the Lady of Pain or Zeus are treated. Divine Rank is still a completely fair system for scaling, but CR is inherently flawed. For an example of how flawed it is, one can easily look to Tucker's Kobolds, with Kobolds being a 1/4 CR yet being able to seriously wound and threaten a party of 12th level adventurers. Yet we presume it is sacrosanct and cannot be assailed.
Almost everyone who is not a deity or above needs to be looked at with much scrutiny and re-evaluated. For instance, we can scale persons such as Drizzt to the feats he and his companions possess, such as Wulfgar's hammer toss or Taulmaril the Heartseeker's boulder-splitting.
Thank you for reading, and I want to personally thank Mr. Bambu for all the hard work he has put in for this amazing Universe so far, by helping flesh out how strong beings are. This CRT is made out of a desire for accuracy, not made from animosity.
Issue #1: Challenge Rating and You
To begin, we are presented with the first glaring issue in the Dungeons and Dragons(heretoafter referred to simply as D&D) profiles on our wiki. The term 'Challenge Rating'(heretoafter referred to simply as CR) is used, broadly, to describe a monster or group of monsters and contextualize the difficulty an average party of 4 Player Character(heretoafter referred to as PCs) adventurers should expect in a fight with said monster/group (Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5E page 48) . Simply put, the monster's CR=the average level of a group of 4 Players; a CR 17 Monster can be a reasonable challenge for 4 17th level Characters. The Dungeon Master's Guide is pretty explicit on the point that CR=Party Level is a 'Challenging' fight (Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5E page 49), and it is also noted that an average adventuring party can handle at least 6 such 'Challenging' encounters per adventuring day (Dungeon Master's Guide 5E page 85) .
Now, where does an issue come in from this simple basic set of guidelines? The answer is as simple as the guidelines: our wiki presumes that a PC's Level is directly equivalent to CR.
Anyone astute will immediately note a problem here from the basic definition of CR; CR is used to measure monsters, for one, and for two it's measuring a monster against FOUR PCs. How could a Level 17 PCs reasonably fight 4 Level 17 PCs and consider it a 'Challenging' fight?
They cannot, and the Dungeon Master's Guide actually states as such. Explicitly, a group of monsters add their respective CR together to equal their Effective Level rating to determine their collective CR (Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5E page 49). So now we are at quite the impasse: per our wiki, a single level 17 PC is equated to a CR of 17, meaning they can reasonably challenge 4 Level 17 PCs (which would be 4 CR 17 monsters), so let's plug these numbers into some CR calculators and check the results shall we:
From edition 3.5e
From edition 5e
Oops.
This simple illustration demonstrates the most basic, inherent flaw in our system of measuring relative power for the D&D verse: we presume that if a character's profile lists the character as Level 17, they can reasonably 'challenge' a CR 17, when they provably do not scale at all. If you don't believe this is wrong based on the logic and calculators, I am at a loss at this point.
Pre-Emptive Arguments
- Well what's to say Drizzt couldn't fight 4 copies of himself, he absolutely could reasonably 'challenge' them!
- Using the rules the way you are is going against the spirit of the game itself!
- CR is just a benchmark placement and people below don't scale to people above!
- Well what do you propose we do then, we already have this set and you're just arguing Rules Lawyer methods of skirting our guidelines!
For an illustrative example highlighting the entirety of my Issue #1: Drizzt's current profile states he is 'Comparable to Imix', an Elemental Prince who rules over the Plane of Fire, and is therefore 6-C. He's not, at all, remotely. The only thing that scales is his Level is around Imix's CR. They have never interacted. Drizzt has never demonstrated a feat of the level Imix is at, except by utilizing a powerful magical scimitar that destroyed the soul of demons (conveniently for Drizzt). Drizzt has busted no Islands. Drizzt has failed to kill nameless Orcs in combat with a single hit, Drizzt has consistently struggled to even meaningfully wound a Level 9 Orc (Obould) in single combat and been near-fatally wounded by him in return, yet is Island-Busting. Measure by ACTUAL FEATS, not by meaningless drivel that scales in a nonsensical manner.
We need a rehaul of the D&D verse or else we are simply, woefully, inaccurate as a wiki and are patently abiding the spread of misinformation.
In summation: CR is an awful litmus for measuring characters against one another, it allows for recursive infinite-scaling when applied on the wiki, it is not meant to be applied to PCs and still maintain accuracy at all, and would result in practically anyone from D&D to scale to Level 20 PCs due to Natural 20s.
Issue #2: Elder Evils Calcs
For my second issue, I am going to evaluate the currently-accepted calcs that a wonderful Calc Group member, Mr. Bambu, has created. Please note, this is not an attack of his personal person as I immensely respect him as evidenced by our extended discourses on the wiki.
For starters, this blog: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/D&D_Calcs:_Elder_Evils_and_Steamy_Bois has numerous issues in its presumptions and how it handles the calcs, as well as this separate one for Ragnorra: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...and_Dragons_Calc:_Ragnorra,_the_Blazing_Death
- Zargo - 'Zargon can cover the entire planet in a storm' per the blog and calc, and then the math is pretty sound. Easy, right?
Zargon is not manifesting the weather. Unrest and imbalance amongst the gods is. The storm calc does not scale to him, and even if it did it would upgrade everyone of his level by an entire tier (Tier 6 to Tier 5) or higher to Tier 4. At worst, it's just mistaken. At best, it's an outlier. Even if we ignore this objection of mine, the calc factually does not take into account every previous level of weather before hand, specifically the neecssary Stronger Sign that is continental+ in size (Elder Evils page 145)
- Father Llymic - The good Father is presumed to instantly coat the entire world in a solid glacier of ice upon his awakening, thus we calc'd an instantaneous global glacier.
Essentially, for Father Llymic the presumption of 'instant global glacier' is pretty asinine when analyzed in-context. There are several temperature changes prior to his awakening, and the cold generated comes from his body's explicit physics-defying interaction with light (Elder Evils page 32). Note that it's cold he generates, not even pure ice. The calc as-is literally is not usable for him, at base, unless super heavily re-worked.
- Ragnorra - Ragnorra, having been tossed into the skies and taken on an elliptical arc around the universe as a giant comet, plummets into the earth
- Mephisto - Standard feat, amped Chosen of the god Mask curbstomps an Archfiend and the guy's distress causes his realm to start crumbling
- Phaetho - These Abominations heat the cores of some planets, explicitly.
In summation: Zargon's calc ignores how he's not actually the one generating the feat; Llymic's calc ignores all the buildup context and cannot be directly attributed to Llymic himself and even allowing for that, he explicitly defies physics so measuring it is weird; Ragnarro is obliterated by the feat she allegedly scales to; Mephisto is fine; Phaethon is fine but should include a more reasonable low-ball imho.
Issue #3: Elemental Princes And Their Calcs
For starters, the link given as proof to support the claims made in the calcs is broken, c'mon Bambu (I trust the quotations though), but here is the blog in question being analyzed: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...D_Calc:_Elemental_Princes_and_Terrain_Effects
- Imix's Desert Drought - Imix, the Prince of Fire, creates a huge AoE desert over time with a heat wave
Secondly, the heat wave takes a total of 20 days to reach Sahara-like temps wherein water sources are fully dried up; at the first stage, grass still exists but simply browns. I see no reason whatsoever for this calc to be taken at face value since it utilizes the highest-end temps of the Sahara from the word 'go' for Imix's power. It is massively exaggerative and ignores timeframes as well as reasonability in low-ends.
- Ogremoch's Terrible Tremors - Ogremoch creates earthquakes in a huge AoE over time simply with his presence
- Olhydra's Drowning Downpour - Olhydra creates a violent storm in a huge AoE around his lair
- Yan-C-Bin's Whirling Winds - Yan-C-Bin creates gale force winds in a sizeable AoE around his lair
As a final point not related to any individual princes' calcs: every single prince, per the Princes of the Apocalypse descriptions for them, necessitates being either in their Home Plane (Fire, Water, Earth, Air) to gain a Regional Effect or must be inhabitating an elemental node of immense power already (for example, Yan-C-Bin inhabiting the Howling Caves in the adventure, which already explicitly possess immense elemental power prior to his being summoned into them [Princes of the Apocalypse, several pages, listed under each Princes Regional Effects, page 222 for Yan-C-bin])
In summation: Almost all of these calcs either have an issue with a sphere being presumed with zero reason for it to be so since it's affecting only the surface of the planet around each Prince's lair thus should be a short cylindrical prism, and most of the calcs downright ignore that the effects are over time and take quite some charging up. I do have one more issue with lairs in general but will save that for my final issue:
Issue #4: Dragon Calcs and Lair Effects
My qualms here aren't necessarily in the calcs themselves, by and large, but rather the presumptions on the creatures in question actively outputting energy such that the calc is sound. As always, blog here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/D&D_Calcs:_Dragons_in_Dungeons and let's dive in
- White Dragon Blizzard Ballad - A white dragon's lair has a perpetual, 6-mile wide freezing precipitation that turns into a blizzard on occasion
- Blue Dragon Stormy Sonnet - A blue dragon's lair has constant thunderstorms raging around it in a 6-mile radius
Regional effects of Lairs are not an active, AP-scaleable effect. Regional effects of Lairs are an over-time thing that generate due to the latent magic of a powerful being spending much of their time in said lair (Monster Manual 5E page 11). Further supporting evidence of the Regional Effects not scaling to AP is that they can end over time upon the death of the being in question (Monster Manual 5E page 11); if it were an active power and active energy being pumped out by the creature in question, how on earth would it take 24 to 240 hours for them to stop putting forth that energy when they're dead? As proof, the blue dragon's storms take explicitly 1d10 days to abate (Monster Manual 5E page 92)and the precipitation, not blizzard, of the white dragon takes a full 24 hours to do so as well (Monster Manual 5E page 103) . No, it simply does not scale to potency since the creatures in question demonstrably are not willfully manipulating nor creating the effects. In fact, such legendary creatures do have specific Lair Actions that are entirely unrelated to the Regional Effects (Monster Manual 5E page 11) and are things they ca manipulate, further proving the point of a stark difference between the two. If Regional Effects were a thing the creature in question was outputting constantly, they would follow the creature; this is not the case, as if they did it would be included in the Monster's stat block in the Monster Manual, which it factually is not. The Princes also suffer from this demerit, since as noted above they must inhabit specialized elemental nodes for their regional effect to come into play, and all their own regional effects fade after 1d10 days post-banishment or defeat.
In summation: Regional Effects from Lairs are bogus to use for AP since it does not reasonably scale in any way, shape, or form and is a direct result of latent magic seeping into the area over an indeterminate time, and the White Dragon's calc is missing major context.
Conclusion And Propositio
At the end of this absurdly in-depth CRT, we find ourselves presented with an overwhelming mass of evidence that shows the D&D verse to be woefully inaccurate on the wiki and in dire need of revamping to make the claim of accuracy.
CR is dreadfully messy and not a good indicator of scaleable potential in any reasonable way, and utilizing it as such results in demonstrable infinite self-recursive scaling at worst, with exceptionally gross exaggeration of ability at best.
Elder Evils are fanciful and powerful but only at the height of their power and then only due to circumstance, not direct ability from themselves.
Elemental Princes are absurdly good at influencing the world around them, but only when given time to ramp up.
Dragons are potent lizards capable of massive magic influence, and this will always be a fact because it's Dungeons and Dragons.
Regional Effects are bunk and scaling from them relies on ignoring the context of how they work.
I propose a massive overhaul of the system for D&D since I have highlighted the several flaws of it herei, namely by utilizing solely objectively quantifiable feats for named characters similar to how Ao or the Lady of Pain or Zeus are treated. Divine Rank is still a completely fair system for scaling, but CR is inherently flawed. For an example of how flawed it is, one can easily look to Tucker's Kobolds, with Kobolds being a 1/4 CR yet being able to seriously wound and threaten a party of 12th level adventurers. Yet we presume it is sacrosanct and cannot be assailed.
Almost everyone who is not a deity or above needs to be looked at with much scrutiny and re-evaluated. For instance, we can scale persons such as Drizzt to the feats he and his companions possess, such as Wulfgar's hammer toss or Taulmaril the Heartseeker's boulder-splitting.
Thank you for reading, and I want to personally thank Mr. Bambu for all the hard work he has put in for this amazing Universe so far, by helping flesh out how strong beings are. This CRT is made out of a desire for accuracy, not made from animosity.