Issues With Dungeons&Dragons: A Comprehensive CRT

[Mr. Bambu]

An alternative view is that those beings aren't tier 8 or 9 since they've battled Drizzt.

Basically you're just choosing to look at it glass half empty rather than glass half full. And, frankly, just being considered a significant hero in the world would give credence to Drizzt being rather high.

 

[Xulrev]

Even moving beyond that though, the calcs do need re-evaluation as do the Regional Effect ideas as Qaw agreed to.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

6-C was debunked though. That calc is fine as nothing contradicts it as you claimed it did. 6-B can be revisited and in the face of nothing good coming up, just have them upscale from the non-epic feat of 6-C.

 

[Qawsedf234]

6-C was debunked though.

Define "debunked". Do you mean that the scaling is bad due to my points or that his reasonings as to why the calc is unusable is incorrect?

6-B can be revisited and in the face of nothing good coming up, just have them upscale from the non-epic feat of 6-C.

To clarify, CR 21-24 would still be epic level. Just low tier epic level.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, as in, the flaw in the 6-C calc is nonexistent. So the latter.

This is true. Not sure of the relevance (no offense) but this is true. Over 20 is epic level.

 

[Xulrev]

An alternative view is that those beings aren't tier 8 or 9 since they've battled Drizzt.
Basically you're just choosing to look at it glass half empty rather than glass half full. And, frankly, just being considered a significant hero in the world would give credence to Drizzt being rather high.

So every Legion Devil, Spined Devil, Troll, Frost Giant, Drow elf, Shadovar, Orc, Goblin would scale to Drizzt

Meaning CR 1/2=CR 17. Which is my issue with utilizing both methods of scaling in the same breath.

Also how, again, is the 6-C feat objection a nonfactor in your view?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In the same way that the goblin is comparable to a frost giant. Fodder enemies are fodder enemies, be they in games or in books. They contractually have to pose some threat but that doesn't actually mean every nameless enemy is scaleable.

Because I've already countered it? You don't really have any points on it since any contradiction is, once again, nonexistent.

 

[Xulrev]

You didn't counter it, you stated you disagree therefore it's debunked. That's not how it works at all, especially when I've given proper evidence for why it ought not be used as-is.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The points you made were that it wasn't instant, and I countered with that your qualm didn't actually deal with the calc. The calc is possible under how I calculated it, the methods were approved by calc group meaning any context there is already handled. So yes, I'd consider it debunked.

 

[Xulrev]

Just to be clear, we are indeed discussing the Llymic feat, which isn't even his own power, yes? The one wherein a glacier of ice slowly creeps across the face of the planet, explicitly, per the ecounter?

Claiming the calc group approved it therefore context is handled is an absurd appeal to authority that misses literally every nuance of what is being argued, I'm a bit surprised.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, that is 6-B. The 6-C feat is Imix reducing the temperature of everything in a pretty wide radius. And, no, claiming the calc group approved it therefore the mathematical context is handled is not. As was my claim. Not that they somehow gained clairvoyance of the story and handled it.

Coincidentally, it is through his own power if the prison containing him has to keep draining that much energy to contain him. So that point is also false.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ignoring the OP, the major issues that need to be addressed are

• Everyone who's 6-C likely shouldn't be. So they'll need to be downgraded

• The 6-B calc is based on a curse that's used to imprison Llymic and a storm caused by Religious unrest. Neither are directly linked to their respective Elder Evil

• The Dragon lairs are not usable in my view

 

[Mr. Bambu]

• 6-C has been dealt with

• The 6-B calc refers to Father's prison requiring more energy to imprison him. A recalc can be done but I don't see why that'd actually make it not scaleable.

• Opinion noted but if I recall that was discussed at the time and decided to be okay.

 

[Qawsedf234]

• Okay. As long as its noted

• Reading the story, Father himself radiates cold as a byproduct to being exposed to light. So I was incorrect about it not scaling.

• At one time Dante was High 6-A, Kratos wasn't Tier 2, and Naruto was Relativistic. Opinions and thoughts change. What was found acceptable at one point doesn't mean its acceptable at another. If you remember at one time Gruumsh was considered stronger than Vecna who was considered 2-A in base.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

• Righto

• Righto 2: The Reckoning

• This is true, but Dante and Kratos got actually new content for those, and Naruto is... well, it's cursed. And what D&D was held as back when nobody gave a damn enough to fix it just brings up darker times when Corellon didn't even have damn Weapon Mastery when the weapons were in his profile picture.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I guess for greater context I'll post some relevant stuff

EL 16 (Strong Sign): The sun is barely visible in the sky, and snow and ice cover the land. Entire villages are empty, and terrible ice creatures roam the land. In one final desperate measure, the local lord entreats the PCs to solve this problem, giving them whatever resources he can muster. There is only one place to go: the mountain. While the characters climb its snowbound slopes, all manner of alien ice creatures try to slow their ascent, leading to a terrible conflict with the keepers of the summit: a tribe of converted frost giants (encounter 3―1, page 42).

EL 17 (Overwhelming Sign): As the PCs reach the mountain's peak, the sun no longer rises and the temperature keeps dropping.

There is no sunlight anymore, and those who don't have darkvision are practically blind. At the summit, the PCs encounter the most powerful representatives of Father Llymic's brood, including a transformed dragon. After braving these last challenges, Father Llymic's icy form finally stirs. His gigantic alien bulk shatters the last sheet of ice and surveys the perfect darkness he has created (encounters 3―2 and 3―3, pages 44 and 46).

Only after Father Llymic's defeat might the sun rise again and the world begin to thaw. What world is left, however, is for you to decide.

The Overwhelming Sign is important as stated here

Overwhelming: The sun vanishes altogether. Spells and spelllike abilities that have the light descriptor, as well as alchemical or magic items that generate light effects, cease to function. Darkness spells continue to be enhanced as under the strong sign. The average temperature plunges another 10 degrees and drops by 1 degree further every day thereafter.

So on his release the global temp drops by 10 degrees (presumably F but I guess C can be used as an alternate end). Then drops 1 degree every day until the entire planet is frozen over.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For D&D I'd use Farenheit. They tend to use Imperial units over Metric.

So I redo the calc using 10 F drop for the instant release of Father. Sound good? It really is simple.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For reference, this would be a change of 4 C or thereabouts.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. Global temperature drops by 10 degrees on his release. If you need it, then previously the temp had gone down by 6 degrees from the moderate and strong stages of the sign.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, if it was done over time it's best not to do that. Just that 10 F/4 C will do for an immediate calc.

The mass of the atmosphere is 5.148e18 kg. The energy comes out to 2.87e22 Joules, or very, very high into Low 6-B. Anyone Epic level and comparable to Father would be Low 6-B, after that they'd upscale to 6-B since this is literally a hair's width from 6-B.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just for funsies, assuming Metric rather than Imperial, the energy comes out to 5.166e22 Joules, 6-B.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well make a blog for it I guess.

For the tiers between High 8-C and Low 6-B we'll have to do something though. Although I don't have the time to discuss atm. Abominations would keep their 6-B rating at least.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The worst that occurs is they go from Low 7-B (disagreed) to High 7-C based on the Tempest enemy I seem to recall that just has a storm following them at all times.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Xulrev]

So what conclusions have been reached as of now??

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh

I completely forgot, I can make a blog for the low/high end for Father's calc. Since either way it puts D&D characters of a certain CR 0.1 away from baseline 6-B, this would change the ratings like this:

CR 17-20: 6-C (Scaling to Imix and the other elemental lords)

CR 21+: At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B (Scaling to Father Llymic, since he's merely CR 18 but he is an Elder Evil and thus scales to Epic Levels)

As usual people with better potential in the department of scaling via lore (Beat godly avatars, eating stars, etc) will get that rating over mere CR scaling.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh and also any "Possibly High 6-B" becomes "High 6-B via Prep Time" for Elder Evils.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I may also look into the more typical Elder Evil global changes since they appear to be an insert-as-needed for any Elder Evil (btw got access to my book again, huzzah).

 

[Qawsedf234]

CR 17-20: 6-C (Scaling to Imix and the other elemental lords)

As said before, scaling people to Imix is not a good option based on 5e -> 3e scaling. His 3E CR is 22, Ogremoch is CR 24, Olhydra is CR 22 , and Yan-C-Bin is CR 21. They're all epic level. Imix's avatar is CR 17 in 3E.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So in my view the level CR 17-20 would just be "At least 7-B, likely higher" rather than 6-C or Low 6-B.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Imix's avatar is rated as Low 7-B.

Coincidentally I messed up the scaling, the lowest of the elemental lords in 5e were CR 18 not 17.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes, and in 3E his avatar is CR 17 (as explained in Dragon #347). Imix's true form is CR 22 and is an epic level being. As one would expect from the arguable ruler of an infinite plane. As I said before, using 5e which generally lowers levels to upscale people is a bad idea. Everyone current scaling to 6-C likely wouldn't if you compared their same edition CRs.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So I went and checked every profile listed as 6-C

• Drizzt: CR 18 (Doesn't scale)
• Bazim: CR 21 (Scales through Yan)
• Imbrar Helthar: CR 21 (scales through Yan)
• Soneillo: CR 23 (She's fine but would need to have her "At least" rating removed)
• Balor: CR 20 (Doesn't scale)
• Pit Fiend: CR 20 (Doesn't scale)
• Modron (Secundus): CR 19 (Doesn't Scale)

If we're only scaling to Imix (as its his feat) then only Soneillon would be 6-C. So either we don't scale anyone to 6-C or do "6-C, likely Low 6-B" for low tier epic people.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wouldn't it be feasibly possible to say "At least Low 7-B, possibly 6-C" since the CRs are a bit off but relatively close

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Anyways, Low 6-B to 6-B results agai

 

[Qawsedf234]

Considering that a one point CR difference is currently what seperates High 8-C from Low 7-B, no imo. Balors and Pit Fiends are still not epic level beings. Neither is Drizzt or the Secundi. The only people I think should get a "At least Low 7-B, possibly 6-C" rating are the CR 21 guys since they're at least comparable to a Elemental Prince.

 

[Xulrev]

I can't say I disagree with Qaw's assessment at this juncture. It seems to be satisfactory and is in-keeping with how gameplay mechanics represent the power-level of these beings. These edits should be implemented

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The High 8-C and Low 7- B feats aren't based on a CR creature who, again, has their CR shift about. That's a different scenario entirely. 21 is literally just 6-C. I'm saying 18-20 would get it on the premise of being comparable to the version of the Elemental Prince that actually did the feat.

 

[Dragonstitch]

one thing I can see the Pit Fiend, having a possibly 6-C. As 4e has a pit feind version that is CR 30.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I didn't even know 4e had CR 30.