Is type 2 conceptual manipulation a smurf ability? (Why is it so confusing?)

[TheUnshakableOne]

exactly what the title. Says, say you are a character where all overall stats are at best 5-B (3D axis) Are Type 2 concepts above his level of reality therefore 4D?


Id also like some very detailed elaboration on Type 2 conceptual manipulation. "Transcending reality" seems vague to me, and it sounds weird. I don't understand it at all, and its very confusing.

2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.

" mostly transcendent of reality"
- Does this mean not all of them have to transcend reality?

"These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in,"
- What does this mean? What does it imply? What is some very detailed and elaborate explanation please..?

"everything in reality "participates" in these concepts."
- what does this mean?

Overall, i need a super detailed, super lengthy, very dumbed out, ultra elaborate explanation please...

I been trying to understand it for months, and read threads that mention it.. but its just not working out..

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping for interest.

 

[Youtd]

BTW, I asked Elizhaa to comment here

 

[Elizhaa]

exactly what the title. Says, say you are a character where all overall stats are at best 5-B (3D axis) Are Type 2 concepts above his level of reality therefore 4D?

• No, it depends on the context;. Some concept type 2 can have the dimensionality as their users; some type 2 concepts can be 3-D similarly to a 3-D character, for instance.

" mostly transcendent of reality"
- Does this mean not all of them have to transcend reality?

• It means most of those concepts are independent of reality. Unlike the lower concept types like type 3, if one destroys the associated objects and beings with them, the concepts will still exist. Some concepts can even exist independent from their reality destruction.

"These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in,"
- What does this mean? What does it imply? What is some very detailed and elaborate explanation please..?
"everything in reality "participates" in these concepts."
- what does this mean?

• Basically, the concept defined reality. Such an example, the "circular" concept defined all things circular in reality. Without this concept, nothing circular would exist. Hence, the "circular" participate in all things and beings circular.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

exactly what the title. Says, say you are a character where all overall stats are at best 5-B (3D axis) Are Type 2 concepts above his level of reality therefore 4D?

• No, it depends on the context;. Some concept type 2 can have the dimensionality as their users; some type 2 concepts can be 3-D similarly to a 3-D character, for instance.

" mostly transcendent of reality"
- Does this mean not all of them have to transcend reality?

• It means most of those concepts are independent of reality. Unlike the lower concept types like type 3, if one destroys the associated objects and beings with them, the concepts will still exist. Some concepts can even exist independent from their reality destruction.

"These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in,"
- What does this mean? What does it imply? What is some very detailed and elaborate explanation please..?
"everything in reality "participates" in these concepts."
- what does this mean?

• Basically, the concept defined reality. Such an example, the "circular" concept defined all things circular in reality. Without this concept, nothing circular would exist. Hence, the "circular" participate in all things and beings circular.

So using my own example, The concept of death defined what "death" is in all realities. Without the concept of "death" only erasure awaits (Get erased from existence.) would that make the concept of death type 2?

 

[First_Witch]

The easiest way to understand typ 2 is to read up on Platos basic concept theory. Its simple, really. Plato definied concepts like this: A concept is a perfect version of what it represent, existing in the realm of ideas. Some might call it a higher realm, others interpret it as just independent of reality. The concept then shapes everything that participates in it, or in everyday english: Cats are cats because they are shaped by the concept of Cat. The perfect cat is a blueprint existing indepenently from reality and all cats are just object imitating that blueprint. Even if all cats ceasest to exist throughout space and time, the concept continues to exist, because it existed before any cats.

Type 3 on the other hand is the exact opposite. Its the object that forms the concept in the first place. Without the first animals resembling cats, the concept of cats woudnt exist. Thats why erasing all cats across space and time would erase the concept of cats too.

Dont get hung up on the trancendend part, concepts DO NOT require to be higher dimensional to be Typ 2.

What you have to proof for typ 2 is:
Does the concept shape reality and does it exist regardless of wether or not the object it shapes exist?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So basically, for instance, everyone in this world is "evil" for instance, because of the concept of "evil" existing before them and everyone is influenced by it, and even if everyone stopped being "evil", evil as a concept would still "exist". Am I correct?

 

[First_Witch]

If its a platonic (typ 2) concept yes.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

What if it isn't a platonic concept? And what exactly qualifies for a platonic concept

 

[First_Witch]

If it isnt platonic then try if its aristotelic and if it isnt aristotelic then its probably realist or not eligible for concept manipulation at all.

I have explained the basics of platonic concepts already above. The concept manipulation page on the wiki has a good visualization of the basics as a image.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ah, I see

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Does a platonic concept need to transcend Higher dimensions in order to be 1-A?

 

[First_Witch]

A true (type 1) concept can in nearly every case only be proofen with a 1A cosmology and only if it existed independently of and shape said cosmology in its entirely. Short: yesn't, its needs to trancendent a set of infinities, which in the past definition were higher dimensions.

Important: Platonic concepts become true (A distinction only the wiki and maybe other VS boards do) if the cosmology behind is elligible for 1A, not vice versa. Type 2 and 1 only differ in size and scope. The destinction was made because many people tried to upgrade verses because of platonism

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ah, so a platonc concept can only be type 1 or 1-A if it transcends dimensions. If it doesn't, it's only type 2.

 

[First_Witch]

Easier: If you can proof your verse to be 1A, chances are the concept in it are 1A too. Everything else is Typ 2 (If platonic).

Its nearly impossible to find a verse with typ 1 concepts without a 1A cosmology (Not completly impossible mind you, but most definitly extremly rare)

 

[Elizhaa]

So using my own example, The concept of death defined what "death" is in all realities. Without the concept of "death" only erasure awaits (Get erased from existence.) would that make the concept of death type 2?

Not really; without much contexts as it sounds like a type 3 concept at best.

I guess First Witch gave some good explanations on the conceptual manipulation.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What are some characters that have some "Damn" good justifications for their Type 2?

 

[First_Witch]

Madoka from Madoka Magica.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Its nearly impossible to find a verse with typ 1 concepts without a 1A cosmology (Not completly impossible mind you, but most definitly extremly rare)

Example?

 

[First_Witch]

None of the top of my hat. For a none 1A verse to have a type 1 concept, you would have to proof that the concepts would affect reality regardless of how many layers of infinities your reality might potentially have. In most cases your verse needs to have potential to be 1A or a in-lore reason to currently not be 1A, because i cant tell you how to proof that otherwise. Maybe, reality was 1A in the past but something happend and now its just 3d, but the platonic concepts were completly unaffected by the downsize.