Is this BDE2?

[PHANtomFELdway]

A void of nothingness.

Which everything is bound by.

With the universe and the fundamental idea that sustains it being nothing more than a needle in a desert,with even that being just an example as it is much vaster than a desert.


That which Everything falls into and is reduced to nonexistence



Losing everything,even their very identity/sense of self and becoming one with it.(tho it takes time for them to become one with it, the longer you are dead,the deeper you fall.)


It should also be noted that the “souls” in the sea aren’t actually souls. As even when your spiritual body is erased,your soul destroyed,or your existence itself erased, you still fall into the sea.

It should meet all of the standards for BDE2

As it is a void of nothingness that dwarfs reality. Among many other things





AGREE (5) Astral_Trinity439,Teach1121,Verlice_tempest,LOTM_Historian,Siru_Kyosha


NEUTRAL: (1) Vietthai96


DISAGREE (3) Phoenks, Dark_Soul20189,The golden_and _silver_house94

 

[Vietthai96]

It should meet all of the standards for BDE2

As it is a void of nothingness that dwarfs reality. Among many other things

Ehh, why you made question, then instantly made an answer to it?

 

[Robo432343]

dude stop derailing answer the question

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Ehh, why you made question, then instantly made an answer to it?

I am trying to see if I am missing something or if it is indeed outer.

 

[BreezeHM]

I believe all you're missing is scans showing that the void is above everything else.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I believe all you're missing is scans showing that the void is above everything else.

There is one thing above it that encompasses it. But it is possible that it is a deeper part of the sea since they both do the same stuff.


Also the absolute being and monarchs are the strongest things in the verse and they are bound by it (except the shadow monarch cause it is his domain. Or rather he is it itself.)

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Ehh, why you made question, then instantly made an answer to it?

What is your opinion? Is it 1-A?

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

dude stop derailing answer the question

I would like your opinion as well

 

[BreezeHM]

There is one thing above it that encompasses it. But it is possible that it is a deeper part of the sea since they both do the same stuff.

Is there scans or evidence pointing towards the void being above the concepts of Space and Time?

Also the absolute being and monarchs are the strongest things in the verse and they are bound by it (except the shadow monarch cause it is his domain. Or rather he is it itself.)

Unless they're already 1-A then no.

 

[Vietthai96]

What is your opinion? Is it 1-A?

there are some evidences that could potentially implied 1-A, though not really concrete, of course you can argue for it, but i doubt it get accepted easily, also the case of anti-feats to if we want to talk about 1-A

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Is there scans or evidence pointing towards the void being above the concepts of Space and Time?

Absolute being is the one who created all concepts in verse including time and space,yet still bound by it. Also it existed before it .

Unless they're already 1-A then no.

They aren’t 1-A currently . THO thier is a way for them to get it. The absolute being created another void of emptiness devoid of time and space (actually devoid of all concepts) so can maybe argue BDE2 based on that. And monarchs have possible R>F. Yet those things are still lower than sea of death.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

there are some evidences that could potentially implied 1-A, though not really concrete, of course you can argue for it, but i doubt it get accepted easily, also the case of anti-feats to if we want to talk about 1-A

What more is needed? Also I asked around already,I doubt there are anti-feats. Tho we will see in a few months when the profile is made and I can make a thread for it

 

[Vietthai96]

What more is needed? Also I asked around already,I doubt there are anti-feats. Tho we will see in a few months when the profile is made and I can make a thread for it

probably will wait until the thread is made to see, cause it is very hard to give exact example

 

[Phoenks]

A lot of very clear issues with this if you actually read and comprehend the scans.

1. The Ocean of the Afterlife is just nothingness. Nothing more, nothing less. It is effectively the realm of death. And souls perish (get turned to nonexistence) at the end of their lives.

2. Living things are bound to it because it represents death. Not because it's some overarching source of the cosmology.

3. The World Tree simply encompasses the entire cosmology, which is 2-B to 2-A at best. The Ocean is the roots of that tree.

4. Again, "reduced to nothingness" in this context just means you die and thus your soul vanishes.

5. You become one with nothingness because you literally die and vanish into nothing lol.

Absolutely doesn't meet the conditions for BDE2 or 1-A. It's just a nonexistence realm that is representative of where souls /existences go when they die. (They vanish into a sea of nothing)

How you could extrapolate these scans so far is insane to me.

The one thing I can see from this is Jin Woo having the ability to turn nonexistence into existence and bring back souls.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Absolutely doesn't meet the conditions for BDE2 or 1-A. It's just a nonexistence realm that is representative of where souls /existences go when they die. (They vanish into a sea of nothing)

this void stuff is the most wanked right now, lol. People are really trying 1A with it, focusing on two things in mind: everything turns into nothingness in the void, and secondly, it contains spacetimes, when that's not the case for a 1A .

Post in thread 'The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"'

May 14, 2024

Well i dont know we can have this tier so easily this time. Still absurd in my mind honestly

It's not exactly any more absurd than slapping Low 1-C into a character because of a statement like "There is an uncountably infinite number of universes, and I destroyed them all," or making a character High 1-A because of a statement involving inaccessible cardinals. The revisions really just made less obscure things serve as qualifiers for such tiers (And I suspect that's where the knee-jerk reactions some people display come from), but at the end of the day, things didn't change that...

• Ultima_Reality

• 

Post in thread 'Arrowverse CRT: 1-A upgrade for Arrowverse'

Nov 21, 2024

Hopping in here just to nip this at the bud: Voids of nothingness aren't inherently 1-A just for being voids. Nothing here seems like it particularly suggests the Void is superior to non-void things (Or even that it has BDE), so, yeah.

• Ultima_Reality

• 

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

A lot of very clear issues with this if you actually read and comprehend the scans.

1. The Ocean of the Afterlife is just nothingness. Nothing more, nothing less. It is effectively the realm of death. And souls perish (get turned to nonexistence) at the end of their lives.

Yeah doesn’t really matter. Sea of death would still be a void that dwarfs reality.

2. Living things are bound to it because it represents death. Not because it's some overarching source of the cosmology.

Almost like dead things are also bound to it things like undead,ghosts,etc as it is death itself . everything is still bound by it. The fact that it encompasses the very thing that sustains reality already puts it above it. It is also in fact the very thing that can destroy all of reality as well. Has people questioning if gods are absolute in the face of such a thing. It is the very reason why infinite power doesn’t exist,cause everything is bound by it and therefore cannot be infinite as it has an end (death) (do note that there is someone who has mid godly regen yet is still not counted as immortal)


Death is absolute

If it can die. Then it is a finite creature,and since everything can die then there is no such thing as infinite power.



But jinwoo trancends death and is the only true immortal . (Next thread will be stuff about Jinwoo encompassing all of reality so be prepared)

Also the statement of it being impossible for jinwoo is proven wrong when he goes and meets ashborn

Can find the scan later

3. The World Tree simply encompasses the entire cosmology, which is 2-B to 2-A at best. The Ocean is the roots of that tree.

I find it funny how you didn’t even read the novel and are yet again trying to talk. The roots exist in the sea. As the world tree is a weed planted by the absolute being. Yet this tree that sustains reality is simply like a needle inside a desert (the sea) the ocean isn’t the roots, idk where you got that from

4. Again, "reduced to nothingness" in this context just means you die and thus your soul vanishes.

Died in spiritual state. And therefore the soul is destroyed.they RETURN to nothingness as the sea of death is where all things are born (from the world tree) and where everything RETURNS when they die. You can clearly see the word RETURN. Hope you are doing this on purpose just to rage bait

5. You become one with nothingness because you literally die and vanish into nothing lol.

Yeah… that is the whole point. All that exists is nothingness of the void. And when you die you get reduced to said nothingness and become of the same nature becoming one with it. The now dead and NONEXISTENT absolute being.the absolute being is of the same nature as the sea. They statement about returning to the sea is entirely different tho

Absolutely doesn't meet the conditions for BDE2 or 1-A. It's just a nonexistence realm that is representative of where souls /existences go when they die. (They vanish into a sea of nothing)

It is a void of nothingness beyond reality that the absolute being who created everything is also bound by… and I also proved that they still go to such a place even if their soul is destroyed or erased.

How you could extrapolate these scans so far is insane to me.

Literally nothing is extrapolated, just you yet again not being able to read,just like how being able to destroy all of existence is lower than planetary.when you literally use that same statement in your sandbox.

The one thing I can see from this is Jin Woo having the ability to turn nonexistence into existence and bring back souls.

Shadows are of the same nature as the sea, Jin woo is the ruler of the sea. And his power works by pulling up thier nonexistent self into reality with thier body as a medium.

Covered in the void itself

You genuinely didn’t debunk a thing,if anything you just proved that you didn’t even read the scans.


The sea of death remains a void of nothingness, beyond reality, encompassing it.being the very thing that destroys all of existence,the only infinite thing that everything is reduced to. As we know that the absolute being created everything in the universe, we know that the sea would therefore be beyond everything that the absolute being created including all concepts as no power works in the face of death.

Jinwoo is the abyss,DEATH itself.(death is only apart of him) will make another thread about who Jinwoo really is

Stated by the shadow monarch himself that he is death itself.

(I am going to sleep. So you can just type whatever you want. I will debunk everything you say when I wake up as you yet again talk saying something didn’t happen when you haven’t even read the series)


This isn’t at all similar to arrowverse. As the very reason the void is beyond everything is cause it is the end of everything.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

3. The World Tree simply encompasses the entire cosmology, which is 2-B to 2-A at best. The Ocean is the roots of that tree.

Destroy everything he had created within the abyss

Destroy everything he had created

Along said being described as a needle within a desert and the roots are in the ocean

With the world tree being described as the needle and the ocean being described as more vast then a desert

At what point make it sound like the roots are the afterlife ocean and not just encompassed within it

Literally what gave you the opinion that the world tree encompasses stuff

 

[Phoenks]

You are literally proving everything I said right. Thank you for the additional arguments against you own post, I guess.

My work is done here.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

You are literally proving everything I said right. Thank you for the additional arguments against you own post, I guess.

My work is done here.

Cool. Loved your statement about the sea of death being roots of the world tree. Makes so much sense,is totally what the scan says. Regardless I don’t see a reason to associate with you since you sadly cannot understand arguments that are made and like to infuse your own head canon into series that you have not read.and refuse to acknowledge when you are wrong even with a direct scan.

Doesn’t really matter since your vote doesn’t count. I will be making a thread and your disagreement will not affect the outcome.

I am not trying to be rude,but your takes are disingenuous.


Being able of Destroying all of existence/creating countless universes is lower than planetary according to you cause avatars don’t have feats even though original form is what scales in the first place.

 

[Teach1121]

Is there scans or evidence pointing towards the void being above the concepts of Space and Time?

Unless they're already 1-A then no.

you guys use the concept of time and space to extrapolate upon what makes up reality and dimensions as metaphysics correct? Or am I thinking abt another tiering system

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Pretty much agree with what @Phoenks said.

 

[Verlice_tempest]

Needs more context on lacking space time ig

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Needs more context on lacking space time ig

I should probably add those scans then,but a void by definition already lacks those. I don’t feel like looking for them,but when I am done jinwoo profile then I will make a thread for this

 

[Phoenks]

Lacking space time is not BDE2. It is by definition BDE1 which does not grant a tier.

Please actually go through the relevant terminology pages and threads for this stuff.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

the vagueness or misinterpretation behind how voids are 1-A has been an untold disaster for the VSBW

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

I dont think this is 1A ,lacking space and time doesn't grant a tier ,you need evidence of the void being above such concepts not merely lacking them or containing them

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Lacking space time is not BDE2. It is by definition BDE1 which does not grant a tier.

Please actually go through the relevant terminology pages and threads for this stuff.

He never said lacking space time is BDE2. He said that with everything else I provided all that is left is to provide evidence on it being lacking space and time yet still being bigger than the universe

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

I dont think this is 1A ,lacking space and time doesn't grant a tier ,you need evidence of the void being above such concepts not merely lacking them or containing them

Lacking space and time yet still being vaster literally means superiority

 

[Digital_Franz]

Lacking space and time yet still being vaster literally means superiority

Nuh. It can be vaster than a 4-D space-time continuum but does not transcend the concept of dimensions.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Nuh. It can be vaster than a 4-D space-time continuum but does not transcend the concept of dimensions.

these things are non-composite, so the 'superiority' they'd hold over normal reality would be an ontological one by nature.

 

[Phoenks]

They're non composite in that they are nothing. Not non-composite by virtue of transcending physical composition.

Do you have any further evidence? If not the question has long been answered.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

A void of nothingness.

Which everything is bound by.

With the universe and the fundamental idea that sustains it being nothing more than a needle in a desert,with even that being just an example as it is much vaster than

Yeah, this part seems about right

By virtue, a void of nothingness (lack of space and time) can either be nothing at all (insofar as that holds no relevant meaning or comparison to something) and thus be inferior to the non 1A physical composite, or be ontologically superior over it (provided no anti feats), which is often portrayed by a void encompassing or being vaster than the physical reality.

Since im this case, the void is clearly vaster than the world tree (something that acts as the base of existence), that should take it to the superiority route.

So 1-A for the void seems good to go.

Tho do note that I'm not much knowledgeable about the verse, and outside these scans provided, I am not aware of any anti feats.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

They're non composite in that they are nothing. Not non-composite by virtue of transcending physical composition.

Do you have any further evidence? If not the question has long been answered.

Idk where you got this from so can you send it? I think I am missing something . As just looking at the Bde page it says this


if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.


This is very clearly saying that by nature of a void. if it does surpass something,then it would surpass its very nature. It would be an ontological superiority

 

[Teach1121]

I don't see a issue the reason behind a void of nothingness . it's a void that lacks what reality and exist bigger which reality typically has to offer which consist of time -space and dimensions the world tree being the idea of reality and sustaining all of reality while existing independent should suffice.

so in like simple terms
time ,dimensions space etc =1
Void of nothingness = 0
And the 0>1 so it'd have to be a ontological difference

Its a void of nothingness that encompasses reality and exist bigger to a point all self disappears and becomes a realm without a state of self aka non self . So it's not like it can be under the same value.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Lacking space and time yet still being vaster literally means superiority

No,if existence is being reduced into non existence ,you could also say it lacks space and time,
The void should lack space and time because it is qualitatively above the space and time or physical reality as a whole not because reality is being reduced into non existence ,thats the entire reasoning behind BDE type 2

 

[Firestorm808]

1-A: Outerverse level
Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.

A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.

Likewise, even the Von Neumann Universe (As well as larger structures still) is still simply the union of many elements that, individually, are smaller than itself. And the same applies to any mathematical space whatsoever.

A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.[note 3]

This tier can be extended into higher levels in the same vein as 1-C and 1-B. And should a character or object effect something equivalent to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

Can you elaborate on how a "qualitative" superiority is achieved?

 

[Verlice_tempest]

Okay ya I agree, unless something else contradicts It

 

[Verlice_tempest]

Can you elaborate on how a "qualitative" superiority is achieved?

There are multiple ways to achieve it, qualitative superiority is superiority or transcendence over non 1A reality to such extent where it's reduced to nothingness in comparison transcending whole notion of dimensionality n all

Bde2 for example is a construct lacking notion of space time yet being superior to a set of dimensionality or r>f is self evidential

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

No,if existence is being reduced into non existence ,you could also say it lacks space and time,
The void should lack space and time because it is qualitatively above the space and time or physical reality as a whole not because reality is being reduced into non existence ,thats the entire reasoning behind BDE type 2

it's a return back to nothingness (the sea) where you then become one with it. dissolution ( where you lose everything about yourself) and become one .which doesn't exactly contradict anything and would then show those parts (people who become one) are still just a part of itself (the sea as a whole) aka a part of the realm albeit a lower state of nothingness . the cycle goes from 0 (everything is born into the sea from the world tree so are of the same nature as the sea) to 1 (existence in the physical world) back to 0 (return back to the sea when they die). Everything is equal in the face of this thing and no power works on it.which includes the absolute being who created concepts of time and space.it entirely dwarfs reality (world tree) which obviously includes everything the absolute being created. Not to mention the absolute being also created a void,and existence is just inside it. Including all concepts as they were made later,including time
(I will probably update the thread with more scans cause I wasn’t really trying that hard)


And hear me out. This MIGHT be wank. But as we know, a monarch’s consciousness transcends time itself,not affected by the chalice

Yet this void which everything returns back to, is Realm of consciousness so it would also be of the same nature including everything else I sent above.And yes the sea is the world jinwoo rules

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

1-A: Outerverse level
Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.

A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.

Likewise, even the Von Neumann Universe (As well as larger structures still) is still simply the union of many elements that, individually, are smaller than itself. And the same applies to any mathematical space whatsoever.

A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.[note 3]

This tier can be extended into higher levels in the same vein as 1-C and 1-B. And should a character or object effect something equivalent to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

Can you elaborate on how a "qualitative" superiority is achieved?

I can find ultimas comments on this later