Interesting interpretations in Naruto vs Sasuke (Part 1/ Revision)

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's been awhile since I've been here, and I'm not sure I'm going to stick around much given I'm busy with projects of mine. But I got to correct some stuff before I leave. So I'll start with this minor stuff that seems to favor Sasuke a lot.

I'll retread what I said in the past. I'll seperate Sasuke in two versions of himself; Rooftop Sasuke and Valley Sasuke. So follow up with me

Rooftop Sasuke is a lot weaker than Naruto (which is true given Naruto spended almost a month training with the Rasengan when searching for Tsunade). Evidence, in chapter 175 we see Naruto and Sasuke fight. Naruto is able to match Sasuke (2-tomoe) in strenght and even block his speed. (https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Naruto/0175-010.png). And as the battle continues the more the gap widens between Naruto and Sasuke as he eventually overwhelms him with his shadow clones and even dispells his Fire Ball with his Rasengan.

Shadowclones: (Shadowclone Blitz)

Fireball: (Fireball)

And when the final clash happens, it's outright implied that Naruto was going to not only win the exchange but almost kill Sasuke as a result.

Sasuke notes his inferiority (Acknowledgement) , Kakashi and Jiraiya note that Naruto might have actually killed him: (Rasengan Damage (Implied clash winner)

So in conclusion, Rooftop Sasuke is weaker than Naruto. Sure Sasuke was still in recovery, but even if he was healthy, Sasuke acknowledged that Naruto was far ahead of him.

In second section I'm going to clarify these dubious claims

Valley Sasuke- Powerups and eventual equal to Naruto.

-The First Power Up-

When Sasuke leaves the border of Konoha he's immediately ask to take a drug that allows to speed up the state of the Curse Mark as well as adjust his current body to the effects. Awakening the Second State and acclimating to it's power

Despite all that Sasuke could not overpower Naruto's Rasengan despite he himself going for the intent to kill and bluntly stating that he went at it in full power. Clash Aftermath. So there's no "somewhat matched" or Sasuke playing around or overwhelmed. They were both equals in throughout the entire exchange and each blitzing each other. Exchanges and Clash

-The Second Power Up-

Sasuke awakens the third tomoe of his Sharingan, for his feelings for Naruto. (Pretty Gay)

Due to this Sasuke receives a power up in the words of Tobirama, cause Uchiha's have some Zenkai boost bs.

Tho despite this it doesn't make Sasuke superior as he needs to time his dodge in order to fully elude Naruto's strikes and his strength level is not enough to knock out Naruto. Instead uses his own momentum against him, by committing mostly to countering.

it's interesting to make a statement that Naruto got easily overpowered by CS2 Sasuke despite it was clear that he was caught by surprise when Naruto was assessing Sasuke's hand wing. Then true to Jiraiya's statement Kurama's Beast Cloak form begins to harm him, receding and rendering his left arm useless despite that Naruto still stalemated the clash between Sasuke.

During the Valley, Naruto and Sasuke are equals. The decisive factor in the end of their clash was who struck the pivotal blow. Naruto aimed the headband while Sasuke aimed for the liver blow

Hopefully this changes them back to equals instead of this weird implication that Sasuke is way stronger, given that it's not true and that's only correct in Part 2.

If I’m to understand this correctly, no tiers or values or changing, rather the scaling justifications are changing? Tentatively with the OP’s arguments I’m leaning towards agreeing regardless.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I saw that F bomb you dropped dude. Don't act like you didn't get emotional when you went out of your way to edit it out.

I drop the F bomb a lot on threads but it seemed in poor taste so I removed. Again, you assumed I was emotional when I was just being me but clearly I was right to remove it because you made a big deal about it. If the F bomb, makes you think that's ne overreacting then you clearly haven't seen threads in which I do over react lol. Stop assuming please and keep focues on the revision.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

If I’m to understand this correctly, no tiers or values or changing, rather the scaling justifications are changing? Tentatively with the OP’s arguments I’m leaning towards agreeing regardless.

I don't think any tiers are changing from what's being suggested in the op.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Didn't they say that the Sasuke in bed was weaker than the one in the Chunin Exams?

How? Sasuke's curse mark has a healing factor for Sasuke to recover. He was in a coma because he was mind raped by Itachi. Which is what Jiraiya used to convince Naruto to help him find Tsunade for. Giving she would be able to repair his state of mind.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't think any tiers are changing from what's being suggested in the op.

Yeah I always viewed the two as relative all throughout their final part 1 fight as they kept matching each other’s transformations. I’m not against this rewording to make that more clear.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

If I’m to understand this correctly, no tiers or values or changing, rather the scaling justifications are changing? Tentatively with the OP’s arguments I’m leaning towards agreeing regardless.

Pretty much man, that Sasuke thing was pretty wack to read on both profiles. Given the heavy flaws of logic there

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

I drop the F bomb a lot on threads but it seemed in poor taste so I removed. Again, you assumed I was emotional when I was just being me but clearly I was right to remove it because you made a big deal about it. If the F bomb, makes you think that's ne overreacting then you clearly haven't seen threads in which I do over react lol. Stop assuming please and keep focues on the revision.

Yeah, sure

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aside stop fussing over the **** word, it’s so over-utilized in modern culture it shouldn’t be a big deal to see it

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

lul

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Aside stop fussing over the **** word, it’s so over-utilized in modern culture it shouldn’t be a big deal to see it

No sir! It means everything too me!

To get back on track, what would the new justification/wording look like?

 

[KingTempest]

How? Sasuke's curse mark has a healing factor for Sasuke to recover. He was in a coma because he was mind raped by Itachi. Which is what Jiraiya used to convince Naruto to help him find Tsunade for. Giving she would be able to repair his state of mind.

"You're still recovering".

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don’t know how much weight I’d put into using Naruto’s statement as an objective teller of Sasuke’s strength in that scan. Naruto himself even posed it as a question.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don’t know how much weight I’d put into using Naruto’s statement as an objective teller of Sasuke’s strength in that scan. Naruto himself even posed it as a question.

But that still means Naruto doesn't think Sasuke is in top condition. Though, does Sasuke correct him on that question btmy saying he is?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

But that still means Naruto doesn't think Sasuke is in top condition. Though, does Sasuke correct him on that question btmy saying he is?

Naruto tmk can’t read Sasuke’s power level anyhow

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Physically Okay, stated by Jiraiya. Mentally he was not which Naruto was referring too, but changed his mind when Sasuke activated his Sharingan

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Naruto tmk can’t read Sasuke’s power level anyhow

True, It's more so just a standard question anyone would ask to someone getting out of recovery.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

True, It's more so just a standard question anyone would ask to someone getting out of recovery.

My thoughts exactly

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Sasuke

New

Attack Potency: City Block level (His Fireball Jutsu was this strong during the bell test), higher with CS1 (Much stronger than his base form, as he was bursting with power from the Curse Mark[49]) | Multi-City Block level (Much stronger than before after his training. He was able to break through Gaara's Sand Shield, and consistently cracked his Sand Armor[50][51]), higher with Chidori (During the finals, Sasuke's Chidori was able to pierce both Gaara's Ultimate Defense and his Sand Armor.[52][53] Later, he was able to easily cut through PT Gaara's arm[54]), even higher with CS1 (Much stronger than his base form. Easily ripped through PT Gaara's arm once again[55]) | Multi-City Block level (Much stronger than before after advancing his Curse Mark to the second level. Easily overpowered Naruto on multiple occasions[56]), Town level with Chidori (At full power[57], he was able to match Naruto's Rasengan[58]), higher with Three-Tomoe Sharingan (Upon fully acclimating to the power of his Curse Mark and fully maturing his Sharingan, he was able to counter KN0 Naruto[59]), even higher with CS1 (Much stronger than before), Large Town level with CS2 (Ten times more powerful than his previous state.) higher with Habataku Chidori (Clashed evenly with KN1 Naruto's Vermillion Rasengan[29])

Naruto

New

Attack Potency: City Block level (Sakura Haruno admitted that Naruto is superior to her on more than one occasion[15][16]. Drew blood from Sasuke Uchiha[17]), up to Town level with KN0 (Stopped the charge of Orochimaru's giant snake. In an even more feral state, he completely overpowered Haku. Kakashi momentarily mistook him for Zabuza Momochi. Zabuza described his chakra as being bigger than that of Kakashi, and that it filled him with dread[18]) | City Block level+ (Cracked Gaara’s sand armor[19]. Drew blood from an off-guard Partial Transformation Gaara and sent him flying[20], later forcing him to transform into Shukaku with 2,000 clones, however, Gaara was vulnerable[21] after being hit with a letter bomb in his weakest spot[22]), up to Town level with KN0 | Multi-City Block level (Stronger than before after his training. Fought and implied he could've killed Sasuke,[23]. Still Matched Post-Curse Mark Ritual Sasuke), Town level with Rasengan (One-shot Kabuto Yakushi[26]), higher with KN0 (Should not be weaker than he was against Haku, as he was at his angriest and most feral state since that fight. Easily overpowered Sasuke[27]), Large Town Level with KN1 (Much stronger than his KN0 state, and overwhelmed Three-Tomoe Sasuke, forcing him into using CS1, and then CS2 and was able to outmuscle CS2 Sasuke over Madara's foot.[28]), higher with Vermilion Rasengan (Clashed evenly with CS2 Sasuke's Chidori[29])

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

more or less what it would look like.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Looks solid imo

 

[ImmortalDread]

Fr

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Guess it's fine.

 

[Nierre]

agree with the OP nice catch

 

[DanielX7]

Physically Okay, stated by Jiraiya. Mentally he was not which Naruto was referring too, but changed his mind when Sasuke activated his Sharingan

You need your mind to use chakra, if your mind is still damaged, you're not capable of being at top power.

 

[LordTracer]

his strength level is not enough to knock out Naruto. Instead uses his own momentum against him, by committing mostly to countering.

Nothing in the scans actually states that Sasuke was using Naruto’s momentum against him, he literally just punched him and overpowered him.

In your new justifications, you listed this for base Naruto:

Fought and implied he could've killed Sasuke

And this is just objectively not a feat for Naruto’s physicals, it’s a feat for the Rasengan, which already scales above Sasuke to a significant degree.

Then true to Jiraiya's statement Kurama's Beast Cloak form begins to harm him, receding and rendering his left arm useless despite that Naruto still stalemated the clash between Sasuke.

He stalemated Sasuke with the Vermillion Rasengan, not with his physicals, which is how the profiles currently list it.

During the Valley, Naruto and Sasuke are equals. The decisive factor in the end of their clash was who struck the pivotal blow. Naruto aimed the headband while Sasuke aimed for the liver blow

Hopefully this changes them back to equals instead of this weird implication that Sasuke is way stronger, given that it's not true and that's only correct in Part 2.

You actually haven’t provided any scans of KN1 Naruto’s base physicals being comparable to CS2 Sasuke’s, only his Rasengan scaling.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Nothing in the scans actually states that Sasuke was using Naruto’s momentum against him, he literally just punched him and overpowered him.

Sasuke's position, Sasuke dodges the first hit in the same spot, then tilts his position to avoid Naruto's hit barely. As you can tell by the panels, Sasuke is still in the same relative position where his crater is. Sasuke lets Naruto build up the speed so that he can counter against, basically using his own momentum against him.

In your new justifications, you listed this for base Naruto:

And this is just objectively not a feat for Naruto’s physicals, it’s a feat for the Rasengan, which already scales above Sasuke to a significant degree.

He stalemated Sasuke with the Vermillion Rasengan, not with his physicals, which is how the profiles currently list it.

Jutsu's are an extension of the user, Rasengan shouldn't be excluded on it.

You actually haven’t provided any scans of KN1 Naruto’s base physicals being comparable to CS2 Sasuke’s, only his Rasengan scaling.

I have by stating it, but here's the scan. Sasuke gets outmuscled by KN1 Naruto all the way to Madara's foot. Sasuke manage to push him back off with his wing because Naruto was shocked at Sasuke's state of transformation.

 

[LordTracer]

Sasuke's position, Sasuke dodges the first hit in the same spot, then tilts his position to avoid Naruto's hit barely. As you can tell by the panels, Sasuke is still in the same relative position where his crater is. Sasuke lets Naruto build up the speed so that he can counter against, basically using his own momentum against him.

That might be how you’re interpreting the scan, but there are no statements in the manga that even remotely imply that’s what Sasuke was trying to do. Hell, we get Sasuke’s inner monologue and he doesn’t mention anything like using Naruto’s momentum against him.

Jutsu's are an extension of the user, Rasengan shouldn't be excluded on it.

It absolutely should, Naruto’s Rasengan are displayed as far more powerful than he is. Remember that it one-shot Kabuto, someone equal to Kakashi, who is far stronger than Naruto.

I have by stating it, but here's the scan. Sasuke gets outmuscled by KN1 Naruto all the way to Madara's foot. Sasuke manage to push him back off with his wing because Naruto was shocked at Sasuke's state of transformation.

Naruto pushing Sasuke doesn’t mean his AP is superior, or even that his AP scales to Sasuke at all. Especially considering that he didn’t even hurt Sasuke. His lifting strength might scale from that, but his AP, no.

 

[BlastX]

Yeah and to top it all off Sasuke's casual wing swing knocked Naruto to the other statue and had him groaning in pain as he got up.

And no, caught off guard had nothing to do with it considering it injured him even with the Chakra Cloak protecting him (which Sasuke pointed out had mind of its own, so it doesn't matter if Naruto was caught off guard)

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

That might be how you’re interpreting the scan, but there are no statements in the manga that even remotely imply that’s what Sasuke was trying to do. Hell, we get Sasuke’s inner monologue and he doesn’t mention anything like using Naruto’s momentum against him.

"strike before it happens" literally using his own momentum against him.

It absolutely should, Naruto’s Rasengan are displayed as far more powerful than he is. Remember that it one-shot Kabuto, someone equal to Kakashi, who is far stronger than Naruto.

You mean the same Rasengan that was amped by Kurama's chakra on panel 5.

Naruto pushing Sasuke doesn’t mean his AP is superior, or even that his AP scales to Sasuke at all. Especially considering that he didn’t even hurt Sasuke. His lifting strength might scale from that, but his AP, no.

If their were the same AP Sasuke would stop Naruto on track, but that didn't happened instead he had to wait for him to let his guard down to get him off.

 

[LordTracer]

"strike before it happens" literally using his own momentum against him.

??? No, it’s not lmao. Striking before it happens is Sasuke taking advantage of his Sharingan and positioning his fist into the path he knows Naruto is going to take. It has nothing to do with Naruto’s momentum.

You mean the same Rasengan that was amped by Kurama's chakra on panel 5.

Nothing in that page says it’s amped by Kurama’s chakra, what are you talking about?

If their were the same AP Sasuke would stop Naruto on track, but that didn't happened instead he had to wait for him to let his guard down to get him off.

No, because preventing someone from pushing you is a matter of lifting strength, not attack potency.

 

[BlastX]

Sasuke "strike before it happens" is basically hitting Naruto while not getting hit himself which he does to save Chakra, nothing implies using his own momentum against him.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

??? No, it’s not lmao. Striking before it happens is Sasuke taking advantage of his Sharingan and positioning his fist into the path he knows Naruto is going to take. It has nothing to do with Naruto’s momentum.

Striking where Naruto is moving. Sasuke positions himself and Naruto moves toward.

Nothing in that page says it’s amped by Kurama’s chakra, what are you talking about?

Panel 5 dude. Naruto's eye turns into slits, Naruto has amped his jutsu like this before

 

[BlastX]

That happens sometimes but it's never implied to be Kurama amping it, the series tells us when Kurama is actually amping Naruto or not.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Because it's following show and don't tell when it's very obvious. Naruto draws on it willingly, example is Gaara fight to summon Gamabunta

 

[LordTracer]

Striking where Naruto is moving. Sasuke positions himself and Naruto moves toward.

Yes, and? Doesn’t mean Sasuke was using Naruto’s own momentum against him, especially when nothing in the manga remotely states that.

Panel 5 dude. Naruto's eye turns into slits, Naruto has amped his jutsu like this before

In the literal next panel, his eyes are completely normal, not in their Kyuubi-influenced state, so…

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

Yes, and? Doesn’t mean Sasuke was using Naruto’s own momentum against him, especially when nothing in the manga remotely states that.

Action literally shows it.

In the literal next panel, his eyes are completely normal, not in their Kyuubi-influenced state, so…

Amping the justu, which the rasengan is then filled with. Similar mechanics shown with the Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan

 

[LordTracer]

Action literally shows it.

No, it doesn’t. It shows Sasuke punching the shit out of Naruto, simple as that.

Amping the justu, which the rasengan is then filled with. Similar mechanics shown with the Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan

Or it’s just not Kyuubi amped, especially considering that none of the context points to Naruto using Kurama’s chakra to complete the Rasengan. In fact, after Naruto hits Kabuto with the Rasengan, all three Sannin react to it and not a single one says that there was Kyuubi chakra in the Rasengan (Chapter 168).

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

No, it doesn’t. It shows Sasuke punching the shit out of Naruto, simple as that.

Sasuke see's where Naruto is going to move. Sasuke swings and places his fist at that spot where Naruto is running head first into. Simple as that

Or it’s just not Kyuubi amped, especially considering that none of the context points to Naruto using Kurama’s chakra to complete the Rasengan. In fact, after Naruto hits Kabuto with the Rasengan, all three Sannin react to it and not a single one says that there was Kyuubi chakra in the Rasengan (Chapter 168).

Naruto creates the Rasengan on his own and amps it up with Kurama's chakra. It doens't have to be stated. Kishimoto literally does show and tell, it happen in the Gaara fight, the rasenshuriken, and even the beginning of the valley where naruto drew blood of cursed seal sasuke.

 

[BlastX]

I'm very sure if you want to go with Kishimito's intention, Naruto's creating and one shooting Kabuto with his Rasengan it's fully meant to be his accomplishment and his accomplishment only, saying that Kurama helped him at the last bit undermines that.

Again, and this bear repeating, the series makes it very clear when Naruto is getting amped by Kurama's Chakra or not, just his eyes turning to slits doesn't mean he got a boost.

 

[Tenshin-Ta]

I'm very sure if you want to go with Kishimito's intention, Naruto's creating and one shooting Kabuto with his Rasengan it's fully meant to be his accomplishment and his accomplishment only, saying that Kurama helped him at the last bit undermines that.

Again, and this bear repeating, the series makes it very clear when Naruto is getting amped by Kurama's Chakra or not, just his eyes turning to slits doesn't mean he got a boost.

The completion of the Rasengan is not undermined, cause Naruto completed all the steps and power to do it, he need the amp to hurt Kabuto because Jiraiya stated to Naruto that he is at Kakashi's level. And Naruto has used Kurama's chakra against people out his league which was with Itachi and Kisame.

Then your just ignoring the obvious then