Infinite Speed Downgrade for Zeus.

[IDK3465]

I’m not knowledgeable on RoR, but given the context of Zeus progressively getting faster and faster with his attacks, I think having it be raw speed thing makes more sense than it being time slow. As for what speed, I think it makes the most sense for it to have been done in a measurable amount of time rather than being an infinitesimal as mathematically, 0.00…1 wouldn’t be an infinitesimal, it’d just straight up be 0, in which case, why wouldn’t the artist just list the time as a single 0? So yeah, MFTL+

 

[Vietthai96]

He's simply attacking faster.

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The timer itself represents Zeus attacking quickly, and attacking faster and faster, increasing his own attack speed as he attacks. As mentioned in one of the panels.

That's why I don't see the point in the final attack being a time-slowing hax, since the point is to show us how fast Zeus himself is getting.

scan didn't load lol


I mean, i already said it, time hax can affect your "speed", indrectly, timestop is literally a psuedo-infinite speed ability

 

[Greatsage13th]

In this case, it seems to be agreed by the mods that what Zeus did is an extreme end of time dilation.

 

[Keeweed]

I absolutely despise to death how this site somehow misconstrues such a simple series like this and because it’s staff there is no way to stop it. I don’t even like this series, but having more than one zero is clearly for dramatic effect. He’s getting faster and faster and it goes from cartoonishly massive amounts of zeros to the zeros can’t be kept track, with his fist being stated to have surpassed time and everything being in a standstill around him. It’s just supposed to be a fast punch, possibly infinite but a little vague there with theatrics. This time slow is completely pulled out of a misunderstood of a metaphorical line. Can you remove infinite, sure, but it definitely ain’t actual time powers

 

[Greatsage13th]

You can continue to discuss this with the mods to see if there would be change in their consensus. If there is nothing that's changed, I'll apply the general consensus tomorrow as that would be when the 48 hours of grace period has passed.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

scan didn't load lol


I mean, i already said it, time hax can affect your "speed", indrectly, timestop is literally a psuedo-infinite speed ability

Since nothing loads, I recommend reading chapter 9 of the manga.

As I said, why would it involve slowing down time?

The entire context of the chapter is Zeus increasing the speed of his attacks (without any kind of hax), just getting faster. The timer keeps getting longer and longer. The first punch being "0.01," the next punches being "0.001," and so on, with Heindall himself talking about how Zeus is increasing the speed of his attacks.

And then the fist that surpasses/transcends time happens. Where in the chapter does it imply that the final punch is actually a slowing down of time, instead of following what was being shown, which is Zeus increasing the speed of his punches?

 

[Vietthai96]

I absolutely despise to death how this site somehow misconstrues such a simple series like this and because it’s staff there is no way to stop it. I don’t even like this series, but having more than one zero is clearly for dramatic effect. He’s getting faster and faster and it goes from cartoonishly massive amounts of zeros to the zeros can’t be kept track, with his fist being stated to have surpassed time and everything being in a standstill around him. It’s just supposed to be a fast punch, possibly infinite but a little vague there with theatrics. This time slow is completely pulled out of a misunderstood of a metaphorical line. Can you remove infinite, sure, but it definitely ain’t actual time powers

I could understand the dramatic effect argument, but given how interpretative this feat is, doesn't mean other interpretations suddenly wrong. It could be time hax or extreme high speed, at this point we must choose thing based on interpretation

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @FinePoint @Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Qawsedf234 @SamanPatou @Elizhaa

Sorry for the ping, but since this thread is having extreme diverse opinion, i think more staff evaluate this thread is a better course of action, i want this thread to reach a fair conclusion

Me personally i'm either fine with extreme time slow that is close to time stop, or MFT+ speed that is close to Infinite

Edit: Due to @Phsccarvalho comment i will remove my time slow argument for now, though need to read the chapter myself when i have time

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I agree with Greatsage's reasoning. The 0.00--> stuff always ended in a 01, and if they wanted to state something happened in zero time, that could have just put 0. At most, it would mean the attack was infinitely close to zero, but still MFTL+.

Likewise, there is no Time Manipulation abilities on Zeus's profile, and assuming something like that off of a technique's name is silly, especially considering some of the ridiculous names authors use for their characters' attacks.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I'll put your (@ActuallySpaceMan42 ) vote for MFTL+ and remove @Vietthai96 's vote for now.

 

[Jinx666]

Well its less direct Time Manipulation, and more Zeus moving so fast (and hes a God in a higher plane so hes not bound by logical physical constraints) he physically breaks time. The attacks he was doing beforehand follow a pattern in that it was ramping up in speed so I don't think hes actively stopping/slowing time and then moving as he normally does, as opposed to physically moving fast enough to 'surpass time', like the technique suggests. Theres no way to confirm so its better to leave it with both takes.

Like i dont see whats so controversial keeping it as possibly when there are very clearly arguments for it genuinely surpassing time. Idk why people are kicking out the acrobatics and 'what ifs' just to get one of RoR's defining feats off the radar.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Well its less direct Time Manipulation, and more Zeus moving so fast (and hes a God in a higher plane so hes not bound by logical physical constraints) he physically breaks time. The attacks he was doing beforehand follow a pattern in that it was ramping up in speed so I don't think hes actively stopping/slowing time and then moving as he normally does, as opposed to physically moving fast enough to 'surpass time', like the technique suggests. Theres no way to confirm so its better to leave it with both takes.

Like i dont see whats so controversial keeping it as possibly when there are very clearly arguments for it genuinely surpassing time. Idk why people are kicking out the acrobatics and 'what ifs' just to get one of RoR's defining feats off the radar.

That's because there's a very clear distinction between what is infinite and what clearly resembles something infinite but not quite there yet.

 

[Jinx666]

We cant say either way. Theres arguments for and against. Context-wise, its in favour of it being Infinite more likely than not, which imo trumps the logistics of the 'logical' aspect of it (since this is still a fantasy world, taking place in a higher realm and involves Gods who wouldnt be bound by standard limitations)

Which is why its better to keep a possibility. Its just removing content from the page at this point when it very much can be interpreted as a fist genuinely surpassing time

 

[Greatsage13th]

We cant say either way. Theres arguments for and against. Context-wise, its in favour of it being Infinite more likely than not, which imo trumps the logistics of the 'logical' aspect of it (since this is still a fantasy world, taking place in a higher realm and involves Gods who wouldnt be bound by standard limitations)

Which is why its better to keep a possibility. Its just removing content from the page at this point when it very much can be interpreted as a fist genuinely surpassing time

It already lost its 'possibly infinite' the very moment it violated the very idea of infinity mind you. It's not even vague, it is as clear as day that this is not an inherent quality of infinity.

 

[Jinx666]

It already lost its 'possibly infinite' the very moment it violated the very idea of infinity mind you. It's not even vague, it is as clear as day that this is not an inherit quality of infinity.

'Violated the idea of infinity' as if that has a descript definition to begin with, and isnt just tossed around in fiction anyway. Powerscalers also need to understand that the mangaka isnt going to have the same concrete interpretation of infinity (and all the other metaphysical terms) as the vs community so it shouldnt be a be-all end-all if they arent consistent with what you think it should be.

Having the 0.0000- and then never showing anything to cap the number doesn't disprove it potentially being 0 whatsoever. Its just following the trend of Zeus' timeframe being stated in hte panels during the whole fight. If anything, it further proves the AMBIGUITY of the feat, since they wont tell us the exact timeframe and implies it goes on endlessly (or to an infintesimal point) and thus both interpretations should be stated, with the lowball (MFTL+) taking precedence like it already does.

Theres 0 need to remove this interpretation when its not getting in the way of the lowball MFTL+. This verse full of whack statements that dont allign with feats, and other unclear measuring scalings shouldnt always be restricted to one interpretation. All we can do is adjust as new info comes out but otherwise its better to note the highball and lowball.

 

[Greatsage13th]

If that's the case, there is no issue with a low end MFTL+ and a high end MFTL+ then since you agree with that notion. Let the mods decide what to do from here on out, otherwise we'd be making things much difficult for them if there is too much irrelevant back and forth, my friend.

 

[SamanPatou]

I believe it is fundamentally pointless to argue over visuals, the author's intentions and whatnot, given how vague and essential the information provided is.
Building up convoluted conjectures is likewise inherently flawed, since an actual truth will never be reached.
I will provide my interpretation, stripped to the very bones of what we're showed, with little faith for realism:

Zeus's speed isn't infinite, given the narration still provides an actual number, albeit unknown and possibly immeasurable. However, while this speed is MFTL+ to an unknown degree, I still think there's some time manipulation involved, whether it's stopping or slowing it down.
The text does mention control over time, whether done directly or by circumventing the laws of reality through speed, but it is there, in some capacity, and it is done through speed, regardless it makes sense or not.

If I were to write the profile, I'd make his speed "up to Unknown, at least MFTL+" and then Time Manipulation via Speed Amp, opening to the possibility of it being a slowdown or a complete halting.

 

[Damage3245]

SamanPatou's post makes sense to me.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Specificied votes added.

 

[Jinx666]

If that's the case, there is no issue with a low end MFTL+ and a high end MFTL+ then since you agree with that notion. Let the mods decide what to do from here on out, otherwise we'd be making things much difficult for them if there is too much irrelevant back and forth, my friend.

Well no, cause the high end is literally a 'Fist that Surpassed Time', with multiple other reasonings going for it. Theres no sense trying to guess between low MFTL and High MFTL when we dont even know the number, and it never ends, meanwhile there have been concise arguments ever since the round first came out that it can be interpreted as Infinite speed.

Zeus's speed isn't infinite, given the narration still provides an actual number, albeit unknown and possibly immeasurable. However, while this speed is MFTL+ to an unknown degree, I still think there's some time manipulation involved, whether it's stopping or slowing it down.
The text does mention control over time, whether done directly or by circumventing the laws of reality through speed, but it is there, in some capacity, and it is done through speed, regardless it makes sense or not.

There isnt a provided number, we see a portion of it that never stops and isnt completed. This can imply the 0's go on endlessly, where the 0.0000000...etc can still equal to flat out 0.
Theres no inherent magic involved in the technique since it was literally trained from Cronos' technique. Zeus, in-character, is also not using flat out magic when his whole deal as a character is loving to fight with fists and close combat. It's not in character to say hes using any special abilities since he as a character himself is portrayed as a brawler.
It goes under 'Time Manipulation' as a technicality, but in the same sense that Zeus is moving so fast, time is being surpassed. Its not a manula ability and more so just a physical power, more than likely.

 

[Vietthai96]

Do you have proof of the decimal 0 will goes endlessly without another number? Because at this point we are going into interpretative territory

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sorry for the ping, but since this thread is having extreme diverse opinion, i think more staff evaluate this thread is a better course of action, i want this thread to reach a fair conclusion

I don't think it's time manipulation aince that's seemingly just not a power he possesses (something the profile also reflects). It's either Zeus being MFTL+ or infinite in speed imo, but MFTL+ requires the least amount of assumptions with the information given.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I don't think it's time manipulation aince that's seemingly just not a power he possesses (something the profile also reflects). It's either Zeus being MFTL+ or infinite in speed imo, but MFTL+ requires the least amount of assumptions with the information given.

I'll put your vote for MFTL+.

 

[Jinx666]

Do you have proof of the decimal 0 will goes endlessly without another number? Because at this point we are going into interpretative territory

Asking for impossible 'proof'? The reasoning has already been said and i havent claimed its definitely endless.

But yeah, the mangaka specifically made that timeframe go on without elaborating it has an end, unlike the other timeframes prior, all the while portraying the move as if Zeus has literally surpassed time as a technique learnt from Cronos. As such, instead of me claiming its DEFINITELY endless, it leaves two valid interpretations (with Infinite speed winning out contextually wise imo, but is more ludicrous).

You cant confirm it has an end, while you also cant confirm it doesnt. However, context clues also support the Infinite speed take. This is why Zeus is currently 'MFTL+, possibly Infinite', and given we cant prove the case for either (and theres reasonings for and against), it should be left alone for the sake of this interpretation. The wiki doesnt need a solid single consensus on this, and its beneficial to take both the low-end and high-end as a result

 

[Jinx666]

This is a divisive enough topic in the RoR community as is, but trying to remove one entirely valid side when the stat is already a 'possibly' is just not helpful. All the while, the many other things RoR needs cleaned up on this wiki are just left (the fighter profiles, the interpretation of the Titans' strength, the existence of the Primordials etc.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'll put your vote for MFTL+.

MFTL+, possibly infinite. I'm fine with keeping the possibly rating.

 

[Vietthai96]

yeah, they are both valid interpretations, so just keeping the possibly rating

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

I mean, I don't know. But even if, it doesn't change much. "The Guardian of Space-Time" gives similar vibes.

It likely is supposed to be "God of Time" like you initially said since Cronus is often syncretized/fused with Chronos the embodiment/god of time. It's common place in stories for some reason, God of War did it, Hades did it, Blood of Zeus does it, Percy Jackson did it, Saint Seiya did it, Samurai Jack did it and as seen here ROR did it too, it's a very common misconception given the fact they have VERY similar names, it's a funny thing honestly.

Not taking a stance on the infinite speed thing yet, just wanted to mention this.

 

[Vietthai96]

The entire context of the chapter is Zeus increasing the speed of his attacks (without any kind of hax), just getting faster. The timer keeps getting longer and longer. The first punch being "0.01," the next punches being "0.001," and so on, with Heindall himself talking about how Zeus is increasing the speed of his attacks.

Wait, based on this, doesn't it mean the supposedly endless 0.00000... will always have the number 1 at the end of the decimal? , which it will be always 0.0000.....................01.

MFTL+, possibly infinite. I'm fine with keeping the possibly rating.

Which, yeah, no possibly infinite rating here

It likely is supposed to be "God of Time" like you initially said since Cronus is often syncretized/fused with Chronos the embodiment/god of time. It's common place in stories for some reason, God of War did it, Hades did it, Blood of Zeus does it, Percy Jackson did it, Saint Seiya did it, Samurai Jack did it and as seen here ROR did it too, it's a very common misconception given the fact they have VERY similar names, it's a funny thing honestly.

Not taking a stance on the infinite speed thing yet, just wanted to mention this.

The name shouldn't be taken as literal; the same God in myth could be portrayed differently in different mediums. Percy Jackson, Blood of Zeus and God of War have almost 1:1 interpretations of the lore of Greek Gods especially Percy Jackson and Blood of Zeus

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Wait, based on this, doesn't it mean the supposedly endless 0.00000... will always have the number 1 at the end of the decimal? , which it will be always 0.0000.....................01.

I don't know, probably?

As I said, I'm neutral about MFTL+ or infinity.

EDIT: Another issue is that if it's accepted as involving time hax, we'd have to choose which one. Because the manga doesn't say exactly how this is used in the technique, it could be anything from slowing down time, stopping time, or accelerating Zeus's attack to such high speeds.

 

[Greatsage13th]

MFTL+, possibly infinite. I'm fine with keeping the possibly rating.

That's like what's already on the profile. Besides that, the value behind all of those decimal places will always end with a 1 since that's the pattern for all of Zeus' previous attacks.

 

[Keeweed]

Except no it doesn’t need to, that was the entire point of not showing the 1 and why it’s called a fist that “suppresses time”. It’s left open to whether it just grew bigger or if it really was all zeros all the way down.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Except no it doesn’t need to, that was the entire point of not showing the 1 and why it’s called a fist that “suppresses time”. It’s left open to whether it just grew bigger or if it really was all zeros all the way down.

Which we can't prove. To assume it grew bigger or all ended as zero is an extreme high-ball because we can't prove it since Adam cut his attempt short by sucker punching Zeus with his own technique a little over 20ish decimal places. This means we will never know, and can't prove otherwise.

 

[Keeweed]

We also can’t unprove it which is the entire reason it’s possibly here, and that’s the entire point of it in the manga too so it being a possibly isn’t strange at all.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Nope, the scans that supported infinite speed is the ones that ultimately disproved it. Because the evidence more or so disproves than proves it is infinite.

 

[Keeweed]

You would need to heavily rephrase that. All you said there is it disproves itself because it does, which doesn’t mean anything. The scan says zeros. It doesn’t clarify if that chain of zeros ends in a zero or a one and that’s the point in the manga.

 

[Greatsage13th]

You would need to heavily rephrase that. All you said there is it disproves itself because it does, which doesn’t mean anything. The scan says zeros. It doesn’t clarify if that chain of zeros ends in a zero or a one and that’s the point in the manga.

It's simple pattern recognition, everything he does before ends with a one behind a bunch of decimal places. Then this one would be of the same pattern. Do you have a good reason why this move is an outlier in his entire move set, like some tangible proof that does not require more than 2 assumptions to prove it is at that level?

 

[Nierre]

At least MFTL+, possibly Infinite FRA

 

[Keeweed]

It’s a single assumption though and an assumption the manga actively is designed to have you ask. Does the move’s listed speed end in a 0 or 1. Seems strange to consistently refer to it as a move that actually surpasses time if it’s just higher levels into massively ftl when Zeus is already ftl causally

 

[Greatsage13th]

At least MFTL+, possibly Infinite FRA

Vote added to keep infinite.

It’s a single assumption though and an assumption the manga actively is designed to have you ask. Does the move’s listed speed end in a 0 or 1. Seems strange to consistently refer to it as a move that actually surpasses time if it’s just higher levels into massively ftl when Zeus is already ftl causally

First, where does it do that? Second, it's consistent with the 0.0000...1 pattern above all other patterns, yeah. Third, it is just just a naming convention given to the extreme speed it has as the fastest move in Zeus' arsenal.

 

[Keeweed]

It’s not a pattern, it cuts off, that the entire point of the cut off is to break the pattern. If it was a consistent pattern they would just show the 1