inFAMOUS downgrades/upgrades

[RisingIons]

Infamous 1 Cole's MHS speed. This is the reference video. For one, this is textbook aim dodging. But what's better than that, play the whole video and not the part that it links to. Cole gets hit by a shockwave and the same lightning attack that he's claimed to have dodged. Another thing, this attack has such a massive build-up before it releases that it would be impossible not to dodge even for someone who hasn't replayed this fight several times. The other supporting feats for MHS are.... dodging bullets, grenade explosions, and RPGs, mostly subsonic feats with the exception of bullet dodging, which requires reference.

For his Infamous 2 speed feat, this ability that is called radiation needs citation and evidence because I'm not understanding what I'm looking at here. The beam misses at first then consistently pegs Cole. Where's the dodge?

Also do we consider his standard electricity arsenal as natural lightning? Because if so, what’s the purpose of natural cloud to ground lightning being one of his super attacks?

Now to the abilities.

Delsin Rowe and other Second Son conduits should have mid-high, possibly high regeneration. His orbital drop move has him hit the ground and turn his body into an explosion of smoke, and he uses said smoke to reform his entire body. Also the basic transportation abilities in Second Son involve Delsin and other conduits turning into the elements they embody. Delsin turns into smoke or pure light, the paper conduit turns into paper, Fetch turns into light, Eugene is also light/video. But Delsin’s feat is different from elemental intangibility. I'm not sure how these agrees with other feats of them being harmed or whatever, I haven't played the game in a while.

They should have immortality via regeneration as well.

There's probably a bunch of other feats I'm missing but these stuck out.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I think this looks fine! Not even 5 minutes!

 

[Hellbeast]

This seems neat

 

[Schnee_One]

I have no idea why that is the reference video, probably Teen again, apologize for the confusion.

But no, that’s not meant to be the justification but it is in the same fight. The feat is Kessler dodging Cloud to ground lightning from Cole’s lightning storm.

As for radiation, give me some time because there is actually some evidence pointing to that.

 

[DMUA]

Infamous 1 Cole's MHS speed. This is the reference video. For one, this is textbook aim dodging. But what's better than that, play the whole video and not the part that it links to. Cole gets hit by a shockwave and the same lightning attack that he's claimed to have dodged. Another thing, this attack has such a massive build-up before it releases that it would be impossible not to dodge even for someone who hasn't replayed this fight several times. The other supporting feats for MHS are.... dodging bullets, grenade explosions, and RPGs, mostly subsonic feats with the exception of bullet dodging, which requires reference.

For his Infamous 2 speed feat, this ability that is called radiation needs citation and evidence because I'm not understanding what I'm looking at here. The beam misses at first then consistently pegs Cole. Where's the dodge?

Also do we consider his standard electricity arsenal as natural lightning? Because if so, what’s the purpose of natural cloud to ground lightning being one of his super attacks?

He also fights on par with Kessler who's more than capable of dodging his own attacks, and just because you're capable of dodging an attack doesn't mean no attack of that speed is capable of hitting you in any way. MMA would be way more boring if that was the case, considering everyone would just wiff their punches until they pass out. And, at that, yes, it is supposed to be an alert to the player to evade, but you can see that as the attack is firing, he can still evade it, meaning his speed would have to be comparable and it isn't just dodging their aim.

That's the Ray Field Inhibitor, which is stated straight up to be radiation. It was aiming straight for him, then he got out of the way. That's a textbook dodge, even if Nyx then aims it again properly to hit him.

 

[Schnee_One]

Found it, it was actually in the calc page, just gonna repost this to keep it spreading around:

Anyway, just gonna leave some evidence here as to why Ray Field and RFI radiation should be legit.

Kuo, after reading through Dr. Wolfe's notes, states that the Plague is caused by radiation poisoning that stems from Ray Field radiation, and that the RFI radiation counteracts it. The Ray Field Plague is a cancer-like disease that can be particularly found in the lung/torso area.

Another statement that Ray Field radiation is released during a Ray Sphere blast

Kuo, after reading through Dr. Wolfe's notes, states that Blast Shards are irradiated chunks of earth that are produced from the Ray Sphere tests.

Dr. Wolfe stating that that Blast Cores, which are the produced by Ray Sphere blasts similarly to Blast Shards (basically super Shards), are the fuel for genetic mutations

Statement from Wolfe that the RFI is basically an anti Ray Sphere, built to counter its effects, so they should scale

So, we have a direct statement that its radiation from a well informed scientist of the verse, we see that it causes radiation poisoning, diseases and genetic mutations like real radiation does, and can leave chunks of earth heavily irradiated (most of this comes from Wolfe or Wolfe's notes).

 

[Theglassman12]

Not sure if that can count on the regeneration feat as opposed to elemental intangibility, neutral on the rest, I’ll let the experts handle that.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah Delsin regularly gets threatened by stuff that would hurt him way less than that, I'm pretty sure it's just intangibility as opposed to suggesting that he can reform after being reduced to that many components

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeah Delsin regularly gets threatened by stuff that would hurt him way less than that, I'm pretty sure it's just intangibility as opposed to suggesting that he can reform after being reduced to that many components

That’s more of a gameplay mechanic, same with Cole getting hit by bullets.
It could be on and off logia intangibility

 

[DMUA]

Well, like,

Yeah in terms of durability a lot of the things that hurt him shouldn't but still it seems weird that they'd have such an insane level of regeneration but Augustine figures "yeah I can probably beat them if I just throw concrete lmao" with no extra measures

 

[Theglassman12]

Wasn’t Augustine moreso her sealing them away in concrete?

 

[DMUA]

They don't actually go for that at like, any point in the fight, it's just purely brute force attacks

Maybe you could argue the idea was to just knock him out and then deal with regen by encasing him in concrete but eh

 

[Theglassman12]

@The_Wright_Way wanna comment here?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Yeah, eveyone has basically said everything I could've said here. Disagree FRA. Elemental Intangibility isn't regen and Cole and people comparable to him can dodge lightning and radiation.

Also, what is the "super attack" argument supposed to prove? That just implies the attack is stronger than all the rest, not faster.

 

[Abstractions]

I'd have to agree that there's better evidence for the speed rating than that based on what's presented in the thread, I also share similar thoughts to the other staff here regarding Delsin's flashy smoke intangibility. I'm aware of other characters (like Hydroid) that can transition between a puddle that cannot be damaged to solid and not be able to regenerate damage to that level, we'd need more evidence for something like that, unfortunately.

I know you asked for my input here, but I have to disagree with these changes based on what others have already said.

 

[RisingIons]

But no, that’s not meant to be the justification but it is in the same fight. The feat is Kessler dodging Cloud to ground lightning from Cole’s lightning storm.

Link?

Yeah, eveyone has basically said everything I could've said here. Disagree FRA. Elemental Intangibility isn't regen and Cole and people comparable to him can dodge lightning and radiation.

Also, what is the "super attack" argument supposed to prove? That just implies the attack is stronger than all the rest, not faster.

Because two attacks (lightning storm and ionic storm) use actual lightning. What proof is there that Cole’s regular electricity arsenal boasts speed on par with actual lightning? Especially when he has like 3000 different types of bolts that all behave differently.

Yeah Delsin regularly gets threatened by stuff that would hurt him way less than that, I'm pretty sure it's just intangibility as opposed to suggesting that he can reform after being reduced to that many components

His elemental intangibility I would agree for the transportation part of my argument. But for orbital drop he literally turns his body into a bomb. If you watch in slow motion his body glows bright white before he hits the ground and explodes. Then he reforms from the smoke in the area. I know there’s conflicting feats (maybe?) like getting shot in the tunnel but then using smoke to immediately regenerate the damage.

Well, like,

Yeah in terms of durability a lot of the things that hurt him shouldn't but still it seems weird that they'd have such an insane level of regeneration but Augustine figures "yeah I can probably beat them if I just throw concrete lmao" with no extra measures

What is regeneration supposed to do against sealing?

 

[RisingIons]

That's the Ray Field Inhibitor, which is stated straight up to be radiation. It was aiming straight for him, then he got out of the way. That's a textbook dodge, even if Nyx then aims it again properly to hit him.

I just watched the video again Cole already jumped in the air and is hovering as Nix aims and misses wide left.

 

[Schnee_One]

Nix fired the beam before Cole jumped. Nix doesn’t shoot and miss, the segment of the game involves her shooting perfectly at you and you have to move out of the way.

As for the link, I know there was a calc somewhere with Kessler dodging his cloud to ground lightning, I’ll have to find it again, if not recalc I guess.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Aside from the fact that his default bolts also function like realistic electricity and are depicted to be roughly the same speed as his other attacks?

Also, Cole can control which direction he's hovering in, so that's not an argument against it being a dodge. He can still dodge it midair.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

As for Delsin, Augustine never even tries to seal him on the final fight. She just tries to kill him with rocks, so that's not an argument.

As for the blast, I'm not seeing him explode, so much as just his body getting an outline in the explosion. The blast doesn't seem to be coming from him, as much as where he landed, even in slow motion.

 

[RisingIons]

As for Delsin, Augustine never even tries to seal him on the final fight. She just tries to kill him with rocks, so that's not an argument.

As for the blast, I'm not seeing him explode, so much as just his body getting an outline in the explosion. The blast doesn't seem to be coming from him, as much as where he landed, even in slow motion.

She tries to seal him before they start fighting. She had him in concrete cuffs and leg restraints before Reggie intervened. Her ultimate goal was to capture all conduits to save them, she never wanted Delsin dead. She had Fetch and Eugene sealed.

Orbital drop comes from Delsin, he actually explodes.

“
Orbital Drop
With a full Karmic Streak, press down on the d-pad to launch into the air, then crash back down in an explosion of destructive Smoke power.”

Aside from the fact that his default bolts also function like realistic electricity and are depicted to be roughly the same speed as his other attacks?

Also, Cole can control which direction he's hovering in, so that's not an argument against it being a dodge. He can still dodge it midair.

Did some research apparently electricity is used as lightning in most cases.

Nix fired the beam before Cole jumped. Nix doesn’t shoot and miss, the segment of the game involves her shooting perfectly at you and you have to move out of the way.

As for the link, I know there was a calc somewhere with Kessler dodging his cloud to ground lightning, I’ll have to find it again, if not recalc I guess.

I suppose that’s fine, I’ll wait for your response.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Only, that's not at all what she does in the final boss fight, where she just tries to beat Delsin to death with rocks.

I just explained why he doesn't explode. He doesn't turn white, you just see his outline in the blast. Repeating yourself isn't an argument.

 

[RisingIons]

And ignoring the game that literally says he explodes doesn’t make your headcanon reality. Didn’t know you made the game man my bad.

“As for the blast, I'm not seeing him explode, so much as just his body getting an outline in the explosion. The blast doesn't seem to be coming from him, as much as where he landed, even in slow motion.”

So he makes the ground explode and disappears into thin air lol.

She never tries to kill Delsin, feel free to provide scans where she says that though. Killing Delsin would be the exact opposite of her ideals.

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeah, I can’t find Kessler dodging the main lightning strike, so that’s out.

But since it’s true that we treat electricity as the same speed then that’s not really needed

 

[RisingIons]

Yeah, I can’t find Kessler dodging the main lightning strike, so that’s out.

But since it’s true that we treat electricity as the same speed then that’s not really needed

I’d still like to see it if you feel like searching for it when you get a chance because I don’t remember that.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'd like to see that statement uf you have it.

"Disappears into thin air." Or, you know. Turns into smoke. Which he does casually whenever he has it equipped. Hell, we see him turn into smoke as a quick way of getting up after he gets shot at the beginning of the game.

As for Augustine, one, she's a hypocrite. Her entire thing is "protecting Conduits", yet she's more than willing to sadistically torture them even when they're in captivity. Two, that doesn't change the fact that she makes no attempt to seal Delsin during the final boss fight, even when she has the perfect opportunity to. Instead of restraining Delsin when he's literally powerless after absorbing her concrete powers, she turns into a giant rock monster and tries to beat him to death. Her stated ideals mean little if she visibly doesn't commit to them.

 

[Schnee_One]

I’d still like to see it if you feel like searching for it when you get a chance because I don’t remember that.

Play the Kessler boss fight and use lightning storm, that’s the basic gist of it.

 

[RisingIons]

I'd like to see that statement uf you have it.

"Disappears into thin air." Or, you know. Turns into smoke. Which he does casually whenever he has it equipped. Hell, we see him turn into smoke as a quick way of getting up after he gets shot at the beginning of the game.

As for Augustine, one, she's a hypocrite. Her entire thing is "protecting Conduits", yet she's more than willing to sadistically torture them even when they're in captivity. Two, that doesn't change the fact that she makes no attempt to seal Delsin during the final boss fight, even when she has the perfect opportunity to. Instead of restraining Delsin when he's literally powerless after absorbing her concrete powers, she turns into a giant rock monster and tries to beat him to death. Her stated ideals mean little if she visibly doesn't commit to them.

What statement? I literally quoted the ability from the game file itself stating that Delsin explodes on contact.

As far as sadistic torture of Curdan Cay residents, how is that true when we play through the first-hand experience of Fetch who was being personally trained by Augustine at Curdan Cay?

Also he wasn’t powerless, they both started going back at each other after exchanging words. Delsin had full concrete energy levels but had no access to powerful abilities because he doesn’t develop them instantly. He had help by getting free core relays mid-fight. Delsin had to beat her into submission before he could seal her with her own move, after the first fight it’s more likely that she realized she would have to significantly weaken him to stop him from resisting. Again she never states she wants to kill him, neither does Delsin, even after she directly led to his own brother’s death.

 

[RisingIons]

Play the Kessler boss fight and use lightning storm, that’s the basic gist of it.

I’ll check YouTube because I don’t have my console on me.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

...Did you? Because I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Hank's flashbacks explicitly show her torturing inmates with drills when you steal his powers. He even remarks "she's got a sadistic streak a mile wide" later.

"Eugene! I can't do anything!" ~ Delsin at the start of the fight. All he can do is run and jump like an ordinary human. He can't shoot, dash, anything until Eugene gives him a core relay. Which Augustine does not exploit to incap him like is shown she easily can, she instead transforms into a giant rock monster. As for Delsin, he's shown actually having to blast her with stuff to seal her, which makes sense, as it's consistent for him to not be able to do all the things the Conduits he leeches off of can, IE. The He Who Dwells form. (Outside of a possibly for indexing purposes.)

Hell, even your argument of "stop him from resisting" makes no sense because he's always needed outside help to escape her sealing in the several instances shown, and we know she can easily handle Eugene and Fetch because she catches them with ease to use as bait, so their odds of helping him escape are slim.

 

[RisingIons]

...Did you? Because I'm not seeing it anywhere.

Hank's flashbacks explicitly show her torturing inmates with drills when you steal his powers. He even remarks "she's got a sadistic streak a mile wide" later.

"Eugene! I can't do anything!" ~ Delsin at the start of the fight. All he can do is run and jump like an ordinary human. He can't shoot, dash, anything until Eugene gives him a core relay. Which Augustine does not exploit to incap him like is shown she easily can, she instead transforms into a giant rock monster. As for Delsin, he's shown actually having to blast her with stuff to seal her, which makes sense, as it's consistent for him to not be able to do all the things the Conduits he leeches off of can, IE. The He Who Dwells form. (Outside of a possibly for indexing purposes.)

Hell, even your argument of "stop him from resisting" makes no sense because he's always needed outside help to escape her sealing in the several instances shown, and we know she can easily handle Eugene and Fetch because she catches them with ease to use as bait, so their odds of helping him escape are slim.

“Orbital Drop
With a full Karmic Streak, press down on the d-pad to launch into the air, then crash back down in an explosion of destructive Smoke power.”

We don’t know the story behind anything Hank told us, but in the First Light DLC, we actually get to play as Fetch in the facility, and Augustine is empathetic to her story and listens to her past, and personally trains her. The place has an area sized training facility specifically for training conduits.

I guess the correct term would be “ability deficient” as Delsin does have power, he just doesn’t know any techniques to manipulate that power. He had full energy, and if he had a source for his other powers he would have been able to use them.

But not to get too far off track, we are shown several instances where receiving damage results in the conduit turning into their form of matter either partially or entirely.


33:46 Delsin gets shot and smoke particles come out at the exit wounds. He regains external smoke and heals himself automatically, showing no sign of pain, injury, or blood. Different from simple elemental intangibility because the bullets don’t just go through him, not harming him.

In Delsin’s case with Orbital Drop, it’s literally stated that his body explodes on contact, it isn’t the same as him deforming into smoke when he dashes. He reforms from the ambient smoke in the air. He turns into the same state as an enemy if you obliterate them with evil karma.

SuckerPunch’s conduit website back when it was up stated smoke conduits could absorb “particulate matter” out of the air. The character most similar to Delsin would be Smoker, who has mid-high for being able to reconstruct himself in logia form.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Actually, it's straight up shown that Delsin loses all his powers if he gains a new one and can't find a core relay to charge it with. At least, after Eugene he can't.

That descriptor doesn't say that Delsin explodes, just that there's an explosion.

How Augustine treated Fetch is quite different from how she treated Hank. I mean, it's not like Hank was lying. Delsin was literally digging through his mind and he saw Augustine about to shove a drill through Hank's eye. The implication is pretty obvious.

Anyways, it's midnight where I'm at and I'm dead tired. We'll continue this tomorrow.

 

[RisingIons]

Actually, it's straight up shown that Delsin loses all his powers if he gains a new one and can't find a core relay to charge it with. At least, after Eugene he can't.

That descriptor doesn't say that Delsin explodes, just that there's an explosion.

How Augustine treated Fetch is quite different from how she treated Hank. I mean, it's not like Hank was lying. Delsin was literally digging through his mind and he saw Augustine about to shove a drill through Hank's eye. The implication is pretty obvious.

Anyways, it's midnight where I'm at and I'm dead tired. We'll continue this tomorrow.

Core relays provide Delsin with new abilities. True he can't use his other powers until he develops a new one, but that doesn't mean his physical stats are normal human level without being able to blast anybody.

Hank hasn't exactly shown himself to be a model citizen but there's two sides to every story. We don't know what Augustine was doing or why. We play through events that are a complete opposite of what Hank describes.

"Crashes back down in an explosion of destructive smoke power"
The mental gymnastics that are required to suggest that anything other than Delsin, the only person in the verse with smoke powers, explodes.

You said "The blast doesn't seem to be coming from him, as much as where he landed, even in slow motion." So if I drop a grenade on the ground, does the blast come from where the grenade landed or the grenade itself?

 

[Schnee_One]

Both

 

[RisingIons]

Both

Well technically yes both are true, but one caused the other. The blast comes from the object of origin, at the location of detonation, aka Delsin.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Yeah, but that's not my point. Not even remotely. My point was that that was the perfect opportunity to seal Delsin because he couldn't fight back and she didn't.

Hank's trustworthiness is completely irrelevant because he's not "describing" anything. We're literally seeing his memories... and he remembers getting brutally tortured with drills. And, again, how she treats Fetch is demonstrably different from how she treats Hank, so that's not an argument.

 

[RisingIons]

Yeah, but that's not my point. Not even remotely. My point was that that was the perfect opportunity to seal Delsin because he couldn't fight back and she didn't.

Hank's trustworthiness is completely irrelevant because he's not "describing" anything. We're literally seeing his memories... and he remembers getting brutally tortured with drills. And, again, how she treats Fetch is demonstrably different from how she treats Hank, so that's not an argument.

You’d have to prove Augustine knows about Delsin’s weakness. She knows he takes powers, that’s it. She would be correct to assume he’s still an active threat without that knowledge. The fact that she turned into a rock spider saying he just got the power but she had seven years to practice insinuates that she believes he’s now combat-ready after taking her power.

It’s not really irrelevant when we see Hank’s flashbacks with 0 explanation or context behind things that aren’t obvious (solitary confinement being an obvious example), and our first-hand view of another person’s treatment contradicts entirely everything Hank said about her.

 

[Accelerate420]

Not seeing any issues with this having played the game, and OP is making sense. I'm in agreement with OP.

 

[Schnee_One]

I’m kinda neutral regarding the Delsin stuff, but I still disagree with the speed downgrades since Electricity of any kinda is treated as comparable on this site. And that doesn’t seem to be what the OP is arguing anymore.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

He literally shouts "Eugene, I can't do anything!" Right at the start of the fight. All while running, dodging, not attacking, and desperately waiting for Eugene to throw him more Core Relays.

Which is why I'm saying she treated the two of them differently. She trained one of them to fight and she tortured the other with drills. Both of those things are explicitly shown and her treatment of one inmate does not contradict her treatment of another.