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Important! New Pages NEED References

Agnaa

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Heya all!

As discussed in these threads, the "References" section in character profiles is no longer optional. It is extremely important that all of us try to start using references for important information in profile pages from now on.

Here is the instruction page on how to use them: References

Okay, but why though?

  • There is a recurring problem that the wiki has always faced. We put links to scans, manga panels, youtube videos, etc. on pages to provide evidence for some justification. And after some time, many of the links/videos end up broken. In such scenarios, references will help us quickly grab hold of the required evidence because we'd know exactly where to find them.
  • While uploading pics to the wiki or imgur works to a certain extent, a normal viewer doesn't get the entire context from one or two scans. References will provide them an option to go and check whatever context they want for themselves.
  • It is far more professional and increases our reliability.
  • It is also a great safety cover for us in a potential scenario where image/video links are removed by Fandom, or image hosting sites like Imgur are forced to remove all of their comic book, manga, etc. images due to stricter copyright legislation from the EU and US governments.
So... are pages without references going to be deleted?

New pages generally will be. While there will be some exceptions; if a profile is for a single movie there's no way to further separate those references without timestamps which can be inconsistent between releases. If a profile is for a character from a single video game who can perform the same feats in every level, it wouldn't make sense to cite one level over another. If an exception like this applies, please say so in an edit summary when first creating the page.

If a page doesn't include references, a staff member may ask you to add them or provide an exception. If you don't explain why references wouldn't be useful, or show that you're working on adding them, the page may be deleted.

Old pages without references will not be deleted, but help in gradually adding them would be appreciated.

Here's a well-structured page with references as an example. You can check it out as this will help you get a better idea.


Our current editing rule regarding this issue:

"Always include the References section in character pages, explanation pages, information blogs, and verse-specific powers and abilities pages to source all the important information covered within them. To learn more regarding how to use them, read the References page. New pages without that section may be deleted after ample warning if no adequate justification (such as the series lacking any useful demarcations, or none of the justifications on the page coming from only one specific part of the source material) is provided in the edit summary or in response to inquiry, and no indication that they will be added is given."
 
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Antvasima

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Thank you very much for helping out. I have stuck this thread at the top of this forum, and will highlight it as well.

I will also remove the highlight and sticky for our previous references information thread.
 

Agnaa

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Scans are not required, only references. Although of course, scans would be preferred.
 

Agnaa

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If your question wasn't answered by my last post, I don't understand it.
 
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Heya all!

As discussed in these threads, the "References" section in character profiles is no longer optional. It is extremely important that all of us try to start using references for important information in profile pages from now on.

Here is the instruction page on how to use them: References

Okay, but why though?

  • There is a recurring problem that the wiki has always faced. We put links to scans, manga panels, youtube videos, etc. on pages to provide evidence for some justification. And after some time, many of the links/videos end up broken. In such scenarios, references will help us quickly grab hold of the required evidence because we'd know exactly where to find them.
  • While uploading pics to the wiki or imgur works to a certain extent, a normal viewer doesn't get the entire context from one or two scans. References will provide them an option to go and check whatever context they want for themselves.
  • It is far more professional and increases our reliability.
  • It is also a great safety cover for us in a potential scenario where image/video links are removed by Fandom, or image hosting sites like Imgur are forced to remove all of their comic book, manga, etc. images due to stricter copyright legislation from the EU and US governments.
So... are pages without references going to be deleted?

New pages generally will be. While there will be some exceptions; if a profile is for a single movie there's no way to further separate those references without timestamps which can be inconsistent between releases. If a profile is for a character from a single video game who can perform the same feats in every level, it wouldn't make sense to cite one level over another. If an exception like this applies, please say so in an edit summary when first creating the page.

If a page doesn't include references, a staff member may ask you to add them or provide an exception. If you don't explain why references wouldn't be useful, or show that you're working on adding them, the page may be deleted.

Old pages without references will not be deleted, but help in gradually adding them would be appreciated.

Here's a well-structured page with references as an example. You can check it out as this will help you get a better idea.
This is excellent, the lack of reference was always a problem to big verses
 

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@Agnaa

You should probably post the entire text for our current editing rule regarding the usage of references in the first post of this thread for better clarification.

 

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Some stupid question:

For verse pages and character pages with one reference point only, where do we put that reference source?

Say, Ip Man film series have references from the Ip Man films (obviously) but one movie can go for 1 or 2 hours so that it would be difficult to pinpoint one time frame but quoting the film name is definitely easy (but will it be too general).
 

Agnaa

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I think you're allowed to either not include the reference, directly list the single reference under the references section, or use the "ref name" feature to use the reference across the page everywhere that it's relevant.
 

Eficiente

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I believe ==References== in the Standard Format for Character Profiles here should be changed into ==[[References]]== to link into that page.
 

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I think you're allowed to either not include the reference, directly list the single reference under the references section, or use the "ref name" feature to use the reference across the page everywhere that it's relevant.
Ye, it can happen multiple times if there are multiple movies but the timestamps are too many and too varied for use (Because youtube clips and movie versions), so just listing the movie name where the feat occurs and then using the <ref name=MOVIE NAME/> feature should do the trick.
 

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I believe ==References== in the Standard Format for Character Profiles here should be changed into ==[[References]]== to link into that page.
I handled it, but it does not look as nice as before from an aesthetical viewpoint, and there already is a link to that page at the end of the relevant section.
 
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I have a question.

So say in a verse it takes inspiration from a real world concept for its cosmology, and its related to a specific power in the verse. the verse uses it very accurately and matches it word for word, concept to concept. like the veres perfectly matched the real world concept. Considering how important it is for the verse. A blog is decided to be made for a future CRT

so with that in mind...

if you research into this "real world concept" (being general on purpose because i have no specific example lol) would quotes on the blog also need to be referenced that was taken from articles to explain this "real world concept?" would those articles need referenced?
 

Eficiente

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I handled it, but it does not look as nice as before from an aesthetical viewpoint, and there already is a link to that page at the end of the relevant section.
My idea was that if profiles had that people would find that page easier, but have no opinion on aesthetics, I think it would be the same.
 

Agnaa

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My idea was that if profiles had that people would find that page easier, but have no opinion on aesthetics, I think it would be the same.
Yeah I think that looks kinda aesthetically bad to add to the standard format for inclusion on every profile.

if you research into this "real world concept" (being general on purpose because i have no specific example lol) would quotes on the blog also need to be referenced that was taken from articles to explain this "real world concept?" would those articles need referenced?


Yes. A specific example would be this blog, which mentions that it takes a quote about Atzmus from Wikipedia.
 
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Obviously rules still apply when a verse REALLY doesn't need them, namely a verse like Realm of the Mad God which 9/10 has the entire enchilada of their lore on the page
 

Agnaa

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Obviously rules still apply when a verse REALLY doesn't need them, namely a verse like Realm of the Mad God which 9/10 has the entire enchilada of their lore on the page
I don't understand what you're saying here.
 
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I don't understand what you're saying here.
Basically there are some verses that are only single movies, or some like RotMG which can be pretty much summed up as "What lore that isn't already on the pages?"

On a side note I'm planning to take a BREAK from Warcraft stuff to just go rewatch the entire Hitman series, so I'll probably see about scanning up and referencing Lucas Grey and Agent 47's profiles
 

KLOL506

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On a side note I'm planning to take a BREAK from Warcraft stuff to just go rewatch the entire Hitman series, so I'll probably see about scanning up and referencing Lucas Grey and Agent 47's profiles
@TheGodAboveMarvel should be able to help you out on that front (Not sure if he's active but still worth a try). He also had some new ability additions in mind but uh, the additions need to be added to imgur. And I can't use Imgur. So...

The novels should help out too I suppose. It even badly needs a verse page
 

Agnaa

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Basically there are some verses that are only single movies, or some like RotMG which can be pretty much summed up as "What lore that isn't already on the pages?"
Even if the lore is re-typed on the pages, you should still cite it so that people can find its source and check the context.
 
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Even if the lore is re-typed on the pages, you should still cite it so that people can find its source and check the context.
What context? It's literally snippets from the Realm Eye, and he's sourced as the one who provided the quote lol
 
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@TheGodAboveMarvel should be able to help you out on that front (Not sure if he's active but still worth a try). He also had some new ability additions in mind but uh, the additions need to be added to imgur. And I can't use Imgur. So...

The novels should help out too I suppose. It even badly needs a verse page
I can do screenshots, I can't use Igmur either however so I'm just going to scandump in discord and upload the images into the wiki itself when the time comes. Either way I have a lot on my plate so I should get started, take it to my wall so we aren't derailing
 

Agnaa

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What context? It's literally snippets from the Realm Eye, and he's sourced as the one who provided the quote lol
What the Realm Eye is, what other quotes are given in it, to check if things were quoted in full or not.
 
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What the Realm Eye is, what other quotes are given in it, to check if things were quoted in full or not.
You realize i can go full Malicious Compliance here and make the references section look like an Abomination of God that looks like it glitches and repeated the exact same copy/paste reference for everything yes? But I'd also need to make a CRT to put the references in and that will never happen because I can't do anything with any verse if no mods visit.
 

Agnaa

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You realize i can go full Malicious Compliance here and make the references section look like an Abomination of God that looks like it glitches and repeated the exact same copy/paste reference for everything yes? But I'd also need to make a CRT to put the references in and that will never happen because I can't do anything with any verse if no mods visit.
As the References page says, multiple references with the same text should be collapsed under the same name.
 

Agnaa

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Instead of <ref>reference text</ref>, the first time you add the reference you do it as <ref name="literally whatever">reference text</ref>. Then, every other time you want to include it, you do <ref name="literally whatever"/>
 

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Instead of <ref>reference text</ref>, the first time you add the reference you do it as <ref name="literally whatever">reference text</ref>. Then, every other time you want to include it, you do <ref name="literally whatever"/>
I do not think that spamming pages with the same reference should be necessary. Mentioning it once to thrice as "<ref name="RotMG">All information sourced from the "Realm of the Mad God" game.</ref>" should probably be enough.
 

Agnaa

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I do not think that spamming pages with the same reference should be necessary. Mentioning it once to thrice as "<ref name="RotMG">All information sourced from the "Realm of the Mad God" game.</ref>" should probably be enough.
I was assuming that there were multiple different things that needed to be referenced, but with most things coming from a specific demarcation in the game.

It sounds like a lot of information comes from an in-game lore book, but I thought that other stuff came from specific fights.
 

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Okay. It would obviously be better to add references that are more specific regarding what part of a game that feats happened in for example.
 

ElixirBlue

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I must add that ==[[References]]== was a very natural addition to the standard character page format. It made sense from a disclosure of information standpoint.
 

Antvasima

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I must add that ==[[References]]== was a very natural addition to the standard character page format. It made sense from a disclosure of information standpoint.
Okay. Isn't the link at the end of that section sufficient then?
 
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ElixirBlue

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Okay. Isn't the link at the end of that section sifficient then?
I mean, the viewers eyes aren’t trained to look there. We’ve condition them with [[Attack Potency]], [[Speed]], [[Lifting Strength]], etc, that blue means there’s a link, black means no link.

Of course, I was under the impression when I saw it yesterday, [[References]] was made a link you can access from the “Character” pages, not just “Standard Format for Character Profiles”. Thus showing we value listing references as much as listing how fast a character is.
 

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I am not sure if I understand your arguments, but think that it also looks rather out of place to add an embedded link to the title of one section but not others. I do not feel strongly about the issue though, so it depends on what other staff members here think.
 

ElixirBlue

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It’s more or less presenting a perspective. I try to stay aware of methods of optimizing access to information for the “ones who doesn’t have time to research” out there.
 

Antvasima

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But they would have to read the references page to learn anything anyway. Why can't they read the brief references section in the character profiles page as well?
 

ElixirBlue

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But they would have to read the references page to learn anything anyway. Why can't they read the brief references section in the character profiles page as well?
I can’t speak for myself, but to the average, fledgling wiki member, they learn off the individual character profiles more than the Standard Format for Character Profiles when developing their base level method for indexing. If the individual character profiles doesn’t have a link to references like links to Tiers, Attack Potency, Speed, etc, the page doesn’t exist. It’d only be after, when they want to learn more about the standard format, they go to the Standard Format for Character Profiles. This would mean we would get a new profiles made by new users who don’t emphasize on references as much as stats.

Tho, even if we had a link there, references will probably still not be as emphasize as stats but I guess it would still work as a precaution.
 

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Hmm. I would appreciate further input from staff and experienced members regarding what I should do here.
 

Agnaa

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I am against putting a link to the references page in the section header. I think links in section headers look incredibly ugly.
 

ElixirBlue

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I guess it would come down to efficiency versus appearance. Hmm… but I don’t know how to make it look better for appearance sake at the moment.
 

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I am against putting a link to the references page in the section header. I think links in section headers look incredibly ugly.
Yes, agreed, although I think that I added them to our main tiering system page in lack of better options, to make it easier for visitors to find character profile pages with specific tiers.
 

ElixirBlue

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Wait a minute, isn’t ==[[References|<span style=“color:black”>References</span>]]== an option if color is the only issue?
 

Agnaa

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Probably? But then viewers probably won't identify it.

Since adding references is an editor thing, I'm okay with its current level of prominence.
 

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Wait a minute, isn’t ==[[References|<span style=“color:black”>References</span>]]== an option if color is the only issue?
Just a note that I do not think that we should start messing with our overall page formatting for references sections without a preceding staff forum thread regarding the issue that has been accepted by our staff.
 

ElixirBlue

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Just a note that I do not think that we should start messing with our overall page formatting for references sections without a preceding staff forum thread regarding the issue that has been accepted by our staff.
Ah, you did message me on my wall about it so I looked here if there was a similar comment. I'm not aware if there's a rule against the use of collapsible's and am seeing how ==[[References|<span style=“color:black”>References</span>]]== practical they are on some verses to see. I know the pages I used as test with ==[[References|<span style=“color:black”>References</span>]]== and am ready to reverse them. I didn't do many since the thread is still ongoing.

But why is collapsible's a no no without a thread? I surprise by how user friendly they are and didn't think there was restriction in their use.
 
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Antvasima

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Well, we cannot suddenly use very inconsistent page formatting standards from case to case.

As for the collapsible references sections, that also easily looks unprofessional, as many visitors will get the false impression that they are empty, and cause our members to think that it is fine to insert empty sections in the first place.
 
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ElixirBlue

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Well, we cannot suddenly use very inconstistent page formatting standards from case to case.
Not in favor of inconsistent pages either. :/

As for the collapsible references sections, that also easily looks unprofessional, as many vistiors will get the false impression that they are empty, and cause our members to think that it is fine to insert empty sections in the first place.
Hm... while I can kinda understand the concern, they aren't visually empty. Both in the Desktop and Mobile format, there is a noticeable [Expand] under the lines. More noticeable for Mobile users. Example:

There's also this method for a collapsible from another Wiki but I don't know the text to apply it in VSBW.

 
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The problem is that it is quite easy to not notice or understand the expand button, especially in desktop viewing mode.
 

ElixirBlue

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Hm... is it possible to modify the coding to become noticeable while remaining unintrusive?

Like moving [Expand] from the right to left ex. underneath Gallery, changing [Expand] to [Click to Show] or [For more Information], or introduce new coding similar to how we switched from Template:Tab2 to Template:[insert character] for a thin bar across the page (see above example) to indicate more text is available if desired by viewer?
 

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I would much prefer if we keep all of the references clearly visible in the standard format of wikipedia and other professional-looking wikis. If a references section turns extremely large, you can always place it in a scroll box instead.
 
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if you have a "something" using the same refernece more than once. What is that code again? the reference page sounds kind of confusing to me...


The code goes as followed

<ref name="name">Reference text</ref>

What is "reference text" here? is it the text being used to describe the ability, or realm etc?
 

Agnaa

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The text that pops up in the reference. If you use <ref name="page 77">The Chronicles of PunchyPerson Page 77</ref>, then every other time you type <ref name="page 77"> it will add a reference that says "The Chronicles of PunchyPerson Page 77".
 
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using an exmaple

if i do

<ref name="Vol. 22"/>Saint Seiya: Volume 22<ref name="Vol. 22">

every time i type
<ref name="Vol. 22">

it'll add that reference?

i know i sort of parroted what you said but its how i learn lol...
 
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Agnaa

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Oh shit, I messed up my example.

Every other time you type it, you'd have to type <ref name="Vol. 22"/> not <ref name="Vol. 22"> It needs a forward slash right before the bracket closes.

But outside of that, yeah, that's how it works.
 

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I would much prefer if we keep all of the references clearly visible in the standard format of wikipedia and other professional-looking wikis. If a references section turns extremely large, you can always place it in a scroll box instead.
@ElixirBlue

Did you correct the pages in which you inserted collapsed reference sections?
 

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The colour-specified references explanation page links in the headers for references sections also seem best to remove.
 
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Oh shit, I messed up my example.

Every other time you type it, you'd have to type <ref name="Vol. 22"/> not <ref name="Vol. 22"> It needs a forward slash right before the bracket closes.

But outside of that, yeah, that's how it works.
Show me, can't get the hang of it.
 

azontr

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Also, you should include the following code at the bottom of the page:
Ah fuck I didn't know that-

Can I just go ahead and add that to my pages? They have references and shit but they don't have this specific code lol.
 

Agnaa

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Ah fuck I didn't know that-

Can I just go ahead and add that to my pages? They have references and shit but they don't have this specific code lol.
If your pages have longer references sections (like, more than 10 or so items) you should use this code instead:

==References==
{{scroll box|content={{reflist|2}}}}
{{Discussions}}
But yeah, no CRT or permission needed to add that sorta thing if it's missing.
 

Antvasima

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Also, you should include the following code at the bottom of the page:
If there are lots of references, the following code should be used instead:

==References==
{{Reflist|2}}
{{Discussions}}
 

Antvasima

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If your pages have longer references sections (like, more than 10 or so items) you should use this code instead:
Yes, this version is even better if there is a massive number of references. Thank you for helping out.

==References==
{{scroll box|content={{reflist|2}}}}
{{Discussions}}
But yeah, no CRT or permission needed to add that sorta thing if it's missing.
That is correct, yes.
 
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im trying to fix my references in a sandbox im creating for a blog in the future

and i ran into a problem.

When i attempt to fix a line it will edit the line above and below it instead of the line my cursor is on (the line i wanted to fix)

im not sure what's causing this issue and i don't see any code that would cause this issue.

i been trying to troubleshoot the issue for a couple of days

its making editing my refences on this sandbox difficult.

anyone got suggestions?
 
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Agnaa

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You seem to be using the visual editor, which can be a bit buggy. I'd recommend using the source editor instead. Even if it's a bit harder at first, it'll be a lot less painful once you're used to it.
 
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You seem to be using the visual editor, which can be a bit buggy. I'd recommend using the source editor instead. Even if it's a bit harder at first, it'll be a lot less painful once you're used to it.
the bug still happens even in source editor where it edits the line above and below it instead of the line that i wanted to fix.
 

Agnaa

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I don't see anything particularly anomalous in the source. I have had issues with editing long pages for long periods of time without refreshing. If that doesn't fix it, I'm not sure what will.
 
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I don't see anything particularly anomalous in the source. I have had issues with editing long pages for long periods of time without refreshing. If that doesn't fix it, I'm not sure what will.
refreshing didn't work. i wonder if it has something to do with these weird symbols

it woulnd't let me copy and paste it here so i took a picture




Edit: i can't get rid of it
 
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i found the issue

apparetnly tabbing over in an attempt to create a paragraph indentation caused the bug

i deleted all instances where i did that at and it stopped the bug
 

Antvasima

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You can use this code instead, if there are lots of references.

==References==
{{scroll box|content={{reflist|2}}}}
{{Discussions}}
 
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