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Important suggestions for turning the wiki more professional (Staff only)

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Antvasima

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Hello.

First, I think that we should encourage inserting regular wiki references for important information into our profile pages to a far greater degree than currently.

It looks far more professional and reliable to our visitors, and makes it much easier for us to verify information, and in addition our pages are currently very vulnerable to when the sources for video and image links are removed, and if the E.U. or the U.S. government puts pressure on Imgur and other image hosting services to use artificial intelligence to remove all of their copyrighted manga and comic book pages, that would be devastating for the entire structural cohesion of our wiki as a whole.

We already have a references section in our Standard Format for Character Profiles page, but so far it has not seemed to remotely have done a good enough job with encouraging our members in this regard. Perhaps we should remove the "Optional" part from that and the top illustration image for the page? It is obviously unrealistic to remotely start enforcing the principle to the degree of wiping out the 99% of our wiki pages that lack reference sections, but it might nevertheless make an important point regarding that this is the much preferred format from now onward.

We also need to adjust our Editing Rules and Welcome Message pages in an appropriate manner. Suggestions for how to word our stricter rules would be very appreciated.

Secondly, the punctuation in the statistics sections of our character profile pages technically does not really make much sense, and we have mainly maintained the format out of habit, since that it is how we have always done things since long before even I joined the wiki. It could be argued to be stylistically appealing of course, but ultimately it also looks rather weird and unprofessional. Mind you, I am not the best to ask about proper English punctuation, so help with suggestions would be appreciated, and our Common Editing Mistakes obviously needs to be updated with adjusted instructions. Competent volunteer help with this would also be very appreciated.

So, what do you all think?


NOTE: STAFF ONLY
 

KingTempest

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I love this idea.

Too many times have either the source of the information is hard to find or people don't have time to dig for context. If I had a chapter to look at when.I needed something like this, it would help tremendously.

I agree with this, but this would be a huge project.
 

Damage3245

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References are desperately needed for a lot of pages I believe, and would be solved gradually I expect by encouraging more references be added.

On the topic of making pages more professional, I think that allowing pages to change the presentation of the Powers & Abilities section would be greatly beneficial in improving the clarity of those areas. A lot like how we do with the "Notable Attacks" section.

Imagine if the Notable Attacks section was structured like our current powers section and Goku's page looked like:

Kamehameha, Instant Transmission, Kaio-ken, Spirit Bomb, Kiai, Kienzan, Solar Flare, Telepathy, Mafuba, etc.

I'm not demanding we do a verse-wide overhaul, but stopping all pages from being forced to share the same wall of text format would be a boon.
 

ElixirBlue

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I 100% agree with adding references as less optional. I’ve been trying to make a habit out of it myself.

Questions about it, however.

1. What is the format of adding references for a movie? Add the time stamp for each scaling or ability?

2. What about the format for Books? The page number only or adding the paragraph on the page?

3. While Comics are easy (add the comic and the issue #),

* What if multiple abilities and scaling comes from a single issue? Do we add the page in the reference as well?

* Or do we reference the same issue multiple times, along with the page number?

4. Video Games are also another thing for references I’m not sure how the format structure should be as, since abilities and when they are used is determined by the player.
 
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ElixirBlue

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Secondly, the punctuation in the statistics sections of our character profile pages technically does not really make much sense, and we have mainly maintained the format out of habit, since that it is how we have always done things since long before even I joined the wiki. It could be argued to be stylistically appealing of course, but ultimately it also looks rather weird and unprofessional.

I’m fine with no punctuation. I actually find P&A and Statistics with multiple punctuations distracting on the eyes when “),” acts just fine as a substitute.

Tho, sentences for explaining abilities in the “Intelligence” section and “Notable abilities/techniques” section should still have punctuations, since they are built to contain long explanations and paragraphs.
 

Antvasima

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I love this idea.

Too many times have either the source of the information is hard to find or people don't have time to dig for context. If I had a chapter to look at when.I needed something like this, it would help tremendously.

I agree with this, but this would be a huge project.
It would have to be done gradually over the span of years, but we still really need to actively encourage it any way we can short of starting to delete lots of pages.
 

Antvasima

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References are desperately needed for a lot of pages I believe, and would be solved gradually I expect by encouraging more references be added.

On the topic of making pages more professional, I think that allowing pages to change the presentation of the Powers & Abilities section would be greatly beneficial in improving the clarity of those areas. A lot like how we do with the "Notable Attacks" section.

Imagine if the Notable Attacks section was structured like our current powers section and Goku's page looked like:

Kamehameha, Instant Transmission, Kaio-ken, Spirit Bomb, Kiai, Kienzan, Solar Flare, Telepathy, Mafuba, etc.

I'm not demanding we do a verse-wide overhaul, but stopping all pages from being forced to share the same wall of text format would be a boon.
I am also not fond of the wall of text format. I am just not sure if bullet point lists are realistic to apply for characters with 30-60 powers or more, or if bullet points even work within tabbers.
 

Antvasima

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I'm down with better references, but I guess a good example of what the OP means by that would be nice

Like links to statements or something more substantial?
It is just standard reference sections at the bottoms of the pages, like in Wikipedia. Check out the standard format link that I provided in my first post for the code system that is required to do so.
 

Damage3245

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I am also not fond of the wall of text format. I am just not sure if bullet point lists are realistic to apply for characters with 30-60 powers or more, or if bullet points even work within tabbers.
Bullet points can work within tabbers.

For characters for massive lists of powers, there might be a workaround we can employ for it, but for the majority of profiles I think they wouldn't have any issue.

Tabbers that split resistances from powers are one example of a workaround for long lists. And tabbers for separating abilities based on keys.
 

Antvasima

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I 100% agree with adding references as less optional. I’ve been trying to make a habit out of it myself.

Questions about it, however.

1. What are is the format of adding references for a movie? Add the time stamp for each scaling or ability?
Time stamps seems like a good idea.
2. What about the format for Books? The page number only or adding the paragraph on the page?
The page number should be enough.
3. While Comics are easy (add the comic and the issue #)
That is correct, yes.
* What if multiple abilities and scaling comes from a single issue? Do we add the page in the reference as well?

* Or do we reference the same issue multiple times, along with the page number?
Using the same reference multiple times should be enough. The code instructions are available in our standard format for character profiles page. Just the comic book, year, and issue number should probably be enough.
4. Video Games are also another thing for references I’m not sure how the format structure should be as, since abilities and when they are used is determined by the player.
I am not sure about how to handle video games either, unless the chapters/parts of the games have names. We might just have to mention each game title and leave it at that.
 

DontTalkDT

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I guess a non-optional reference section is fine if we don't enforce it. Although... I'm not sure if it makes sense for it to be mandatory if respect threads or extensive feats sections already exist, fulfilling the same purpose.

I'm not quite sure what you mean regarding punctuation not making sense.
 

Armorchompy

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I don't agree with making references obligatory simply because they'd be pretty redundant on videogame profiles, especially since there's various profiles that are about characters from a single videogame. And overall not enforcing it equals to making it optional, so it wouldn't change anything.
 

Antvasima

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I’m fine with no punctuation. I actually find P&A and Statistics with multiple punctuations distracting on the eyes when “),” acts just fine as a substitute.

Tho, sentences for explaining abilities in the “Intelligence” section and “Notable abilities/techniques” section should still have punctuations, since they are built to contain long explanations and paragraphs.
Yes, we should obviously use punctuation in the pure standard text sections. The other ones are currently not as strict in this regard. I am just uneasy with that we currently use no punctuation marks after sentences within parentheses. It looks kind of weird.

As a dumb example: "Attack Potency: Small Building level (He can destroy a train in one blow, and can punch a hole in a steel wall. He also scales from this character)"

The first sentence uses punctuation marks at the end, and the second does not.
 

Antvasima

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Bullet points can work within tabbers.

For characters for massive lists of powers, there might be a workaround we can employ for it, but for the majority of profiles I think they wouldn't have any issue.

Tabbers that split resistances from powers are one example of a workaround for long lists. And tabbers for separating abilities based on keys.
Okay. Then I am very open regarding this suggestion. It would also have to be a very gradual project though.
 

Antvasima

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I guess a non-optional reference section is fine if we don't enforce it. Although... I'm not sure if it makes sense for it to be mandatory if respect threads or extensive feats sections already exist, fulfilling the same purpose.
The problem is that we are currently far too dependent on linking to largely out of context copyrighted comic book scans. Beyond that this is not a proper encyclopaedic format, it makes us extremely vulnerable to having our entire wiki devastated in one blow by harsher copyright laws that Imgur, Fandom, and other sites eventually quickly have to adapt to.
I'm not quite sure what you mean regarding punctuation not making sense.
Please see my second to last post above.
 

Armorchompy

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I don't think it's worth to waste time on such a huge revision that is nothing but an aesthetic change in the end, especially when there's other site-wide stuff waiting for its turn which is probably way more important. The tabber stuff I mean
 

Antvasima

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I don't agree with making references obligatory simply because they'd be pretty redundant on videogame profiles, especially since there's various profiles that are about characters from a single videogame. And overall not enforcing it equals to making it optional, so it wouldn't change anything.
We have to actively heavily encourage this, both for the sake of professionalism and our longtime survival, as I have explained previously.
 

AKM sama

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I am in agreement regarding using references as much as we can in comic and manga pages. For games, it would be problematic. Linking scans in description and using references at the same time is a good combination, I feel. Because direct scans save a lot of time and it's easier to fact-check information. While references make us look professional and in the event some scan/video is taken down, it will act as a good backup and we can replace it immediately using that info.

As for the punctuation, I don't mind the current format that much. But we'll have to restructure all our standard formats and then new pages will look inconsistent when compared to old pages. The reward here is very little.

But yes, these need to be gradual changes in any case.
 

Damage3245

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I don't think it's worth to waste time on such a huge revision that is nothing but an aesthetic change in the end, especially when there's other site-wide stuff waiting for its turn which is probably way more important. The tabber stuff I mean
I'm not asking anyone else to commit themselves to revising the profiles in this manner. Just to make it an option for people.
 

Antvasima

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I am in agreement regarding using references as much as we can in comic and manga pages. For games, it would be problematic. Linking scans in description and using references at the same time is a good combination, I feel. Because direct scans save a lot of time and it's easier to fact-check information. While references make us look professional and in the event some scan/video is taken down, it will act as a good backup and we can replace it immediately using that info.
Yes, exactly, but for games, it is less important, yes, at least for the characters that have not had a lot of such appearances.
As for the punctuation, I don't mind the current format that much. But we'll have to restructure all our standard formats and then new pages will look inconsistent when compared to old pages. The reward here is very little.
Yes, it is not a big problem. I just think that we should change our standard instructions a bit in this regard.
But yes, these need to be gradual changes in any case.
Agreed.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

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References really don't work for me, i link scans for basically every profile i make, but when i try to add references on top of that, where multiple abilities are from the same chapter, and the character has a lot of abilities, it doesn't work. Might be too complicated for a regular user to figure out, if even i have problems with it.

This is totally unnecessary for visual novels i feel, since the scans speak for themselves most of time, and if it's something complicated, i would just make an album with imgur, though i get that those sites could someday remove it.

Don't think references work for films or video games either.
 

Damage3245

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For example, here is the current version of the list of abilities on Acacia's page. A bit of a mess.

Here is a modified version of that; demonstrably much more legible. It even makes it possible to identify some abilities that are lack in justifications. And I haven't even finished making it neater yet.
 

Ogbunabali

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I agree with this. I think we should make references as close as mandatory as possible for things that are easy to reference such as books (chapters), comics (issues) series (season/episode number), etc. But make it non-mandatory/exclusion for things that are more difficult to use as reference, like games and films. However, if a game has levels or quests, or similar, those should be referenced. And if it's a big film franchise/anthology film, those should be referenced as well. Listing specific page numbers for books and timestamps for films shouldn't be a thing because it kind of depends on which version you're watching/reading from, so you can have disparity for what's shown, so that should be avoided. An obvious exception would be something like a web novel or something which is only one official point of reference.
 

Antvasima

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I don't think it's worth to waste time on such a huge revision that is nothing but an aesthetic change in the end, especially when there's other site-wide stuff waiting for its turn which is probably way more important. The tabber stuff I mean
We are not going to start a massive revision project for this either, but if we revise the instructions in our standard format for character profiles page, it would encourage our members to gradually improve the structure of our pages in this regard.
 

Antvasima

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References really don't work for me, i link scans for basically every profile i make, but when i try to add references on top of that, where multiple abilities are from the same chapter, and the character has a lot of abilities, it doesn't work. Might be too complicated for a regular user to figure out, if even i have problems with it.

This is totally unnecessary for visual novels i feel, since the scans speak foe themselves most of time, and if it's something complicated, i would just make an album with imgur, though i get that those sites could someday remove it.
Well, beyond what I mentioned earlier, virtually all of the other most popular wikis in Fandom use references, so we currently stand out as the outwardly seemingly least professional major wiki. We would drastically improve the general opinion about us if we use references as a complement to image links, and it is rather simple to follow the instructions in our standard format page.
 

Antvasima

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For example, here is the current version of the list of abilities on Acacia's page. A bit of a mess.

Here is a modified version of that; demonstrably much more legible. It even makes it possible to identify some abilities that are lack in justifications. And I haven't even finished making it neater yet.
Thank you. That looks considerably better, yes.
 

Antvasima

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I agree with this. I think we should make references as close as mandatory as possible for things that are easy to reference such as books (chapters), comics (issues) series (season/episode number), etc. But make it non-mandatory/exclusion for things that are more difficult to use as reference, like games and films. However, if a game has levels or quests, or similar, those should be referenced. And if it's a big film franchise/anthology film, those should be referenced as well. Listing specific page numbers for books and timestamps for films shouldn't be a thing because it kind of depends on which version you're watching/reading from, so you can have disparity for what's shown, so that should be avoided. An obvious exception would be something like a web novel or something which is only one official point of reference.
Agreed.
 

DontTalkDT

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For example, here is the current version of the list of abilities on Acacia's page. A bit of a mess.

Here is a modified version of that; demonstrably much more legible. It even makes it possible to identify some abilities that are lack in justifications. And I haven't even finished making it neater yet.
Thing is, that page has a lot of explanation in the P&A section. IMO that's not were explanations should go. The P&A should be a summary of the general categories for powers, while Notable A/T section is for explanations and the feats/explanations/reference sections are for giving references and stuff.

Like, let me show a comparision for a page that uses the approach of explanations mostly being kept in te notable A/T section:
This is the current profile, with a simple list of abilities.
This is the profile with tabber and bullet points.

IMO having one line for 1 or 2 words each seems incredibly empty. It's also comparatively long. As such it pushes the main content of the page, i.e. the stats, into the middle/bottom area. I think from a design standpoint that's not ideal. Furthermore, due to being so long, I can't have all abilities on the screen at once and have to scroll even just to quickly skim them.
Personally I'm also not much in favor of using tabbers unless absolutely necessary due to the sheer length. They likewise make it harder to get an overview of a character, since you can't view all abilities at once. No jokes: When I'm debating a character with like 3 keys in tabbers and split Resistances on top, I often click the edit button to be able to see everything the character can do at once in the source code. That also has the advantage that I can crtl+f for stuff, which tabbers likewise don't allow.
 

Damage3245

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IMO having one line for 1 or 2 words each seems incredibly empty. It's also comparatively long.

In my experience, a lot of pages are not like that. But I see your point.
 

Armorchompy

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I mean, if we use/don't use tabbers depending on which fits the page batter, can't we do the same with bullet points/the current approach?

Also I disagree with the "Notable A/T section is for explanations" idea, a lot of P&A can't be explained easily in NA/T and most profiles I've seen use P&A for most of their explaining.
 
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I agree with Armorchompy and DT regarding not making reference lists for video games and movies, they'd be far too spread out between unless absolutely necessary.

Reference lists for comic books, manga and novels should be fine tho, it should be a must in those cases.
 

Antvasima

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Well, we do have manuals of style, but they would need to be adjusted:


 

Everything12

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Bullet points will not work with profiles that have fifty-something Abilities in the one key that can't be divided into tabs. It would just be too long. (Also, personally, bullet points doesn't look as nice as a properly explained wall of text when actual brief explanations are given in brackets)

However, rarely anyone uses the NA&T section, people just find it a lot easier to classify an ability as one of our standardised Powers, however, they also have a habit of not using brackets to describe what they gain this Power from. This leads to people having to ask others what it's about and kinda defeats the Wiki's point.

As for References ([1]). yeah, I'm not sure why we didn't have those when they are Standard on every other Wiki on FANDOM.
 

Damage3245

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Bullet points will not work with profiles that have fifty-something Abilities in the one key that can't be divided into tabs. It would just be too long. (Also, personally, bullet points doesn't look as nice as a properly explained wall of text when actual brief explanations are given in brackets)

We just won't do it for those profiles then.
 

Everything12

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That would also look horrible and unprofessional IMO. Sure only looking at one profile won't make a difference, but going from a profile that uses bullet points to one that uses a wall of text just sticks out and makes the Wiki look unprofessional from the lack of a standardised look.
 

Damage3245

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Some profiles have galleries and some don't. Some profiles have references and some don't.

I get wanting to make everything consistent, but I also think a lot of pages would benefit from not being massive walls of text.
 

Elizhaa

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I agree with this. I think we should make references as close as mandatory as possible for things that are easy to reference such as books (chapters), comics (issues) series (season/episode number), etc. But make it non-mandatory/exclusion for things that are more difficult to use as reference, like games and films. However, if a game has levels or quests, or similar, those should be referenced. And if it's a big film franchise/anthology film, those should be referenced as well. Listing specific page numbers for books and timestamps for films shouldn't be a thing because it kind of depends on which version you're watching/reading from, so you can have disparity for what's shown, so that should be avoided. An obvious exception would be something like a web novel or something which is only one official point of reference.
I largely agree. I do think games from games franchise should be included in the reference; some franchises tend to have many games and without much knowledge on which game the reference comes from, it can take hours of research to find them.

On the punctuation point, I shared similar thoughts to AKM's.
 

Zaratthustra

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I agree If its optional and not mandatory. For me and those users that create profiles mostly from web/light novels with lots of abilities and epic in length it would be exhausting plus hard when multiple powers are used in the same chapter, scene or the like. Like for example, when a fight happened and you see them using several if not more abilities at once in the same paragraph or sentance.

Lets not forget the length - example Ergenverse which has over 7000 chapters from and a word count of over 17 million words...just to go again though it to put the references would be irrelevant when i already have the scans/quotes. Or any other web novel which has over 1000 chapters or light novels which have 15 plus volumes. Scans and quotes plus an explaination in the Techniques section works better.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

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So, was going to add references to Shallow Vernal a while back, couldn't get it work.

The preview page when showing also makes it seem like the references are messed up

5e9d6f6cc6cb96d6d4a704883af79da1.png


But when posted it's fine, was also getting citation errors too cause i was getting stuff mixed up due to how many abilities link to the same references and just the sheer number of abilities Vernal has.

Honestly it's a major pain when the character has so many abilities, wouldn't really mind doing this for ppl with a small number of abilities, but idk if i would wanna invest all that time for wall of text like Yakagi Suimei, Rimuru etc.
 

Planck69

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This is definitely a good idea, enforcing the addition of references more, though making it completely mandatory doesn't seem quite workable for very large verses.

And the bullet point P&A section seems like a good idea to me, so long as it's up to the discretion of the page maker on which fits best.
 

Armorchompy

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Even if it is in a page I don't really think it actually belongs there as it isn't really an attack or a technique but a property of the character. Besides I could keep coming up with stuff, either way the real point I made is that most pages elaborate in P&A, not NA/T, whether it should be that way or not doesn't really matter.
 

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100% agree with the first one. I actually already started doing it for some profiles/verses and will make a thread for 'em all when done.
I think another good thing would be to encourage not only reference but things such as linking an entire scene/interaction rather than a one-time scan.
Mainly thinking of VNs and Video Games, where taking things out of context is nearly too simple.

For the second one, I find Damage3245's profile example to be pretty good, although I fear that it'll look like the pages will be long af for characters with a lot of abilities.
 

ElixirBlue

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I tend to link YT videos instead of just taking a GIF clip so people can skim around and check the context if they want also it's faster

I’d like that too. But some videos get taken down and we can’t control that. Which is why it’s helpful to have references, to easily find a way to back up links if they fail.
 

QuasiYuri

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I’d like that too. But some videos get taken down and we can’t control that. Which is why it’s helpful to have references, to easily find a way to back up links if they fail.
Doing both seems like the best yeah. One is sure to not be taken down, and the other is extra-precision.
 

Armorchompy

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It's kinda difficult to do that for videogames though. For some of them you can do something like "Super Mario World, Castle 5 cutscene" but for something like a niche game mechanic you can't really source it unless you wanna go "Just hold guard while looking away from an enemy and hit the dodge button as soon as they hit you"
 

QuasiYuri

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It's kinda difficult to do that for videogames though. For some of them you can do something like "Super Mario World, Castle 5 cutscene" but for something like a niche game mechanic you can't really source it unless you wanna go "Just hold guard while looking away from an enemy and hit the dodge button as soon as they hit you"
You can at least reference the game or the given name of the move if there is one.
Not much, but still nice.
 

Mr._Bambu

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References are desperately needed for a lot of pages I believe, and would be solved gradually I expect by encouraging more references be added.

On the topic of making pages more professional, I think that allowing pages to change the presentation of the Powers & Abilities section would be greatly beneficial in improving the clarity of those areas. A lot like how we do with the "Notable Attacks" section.

Imagine if the Notable Attacks section was structured like our current powers section and Goku's page looked like:

Kamehameha, Instant Transmission, Kaio-ken, Spirit Bomb, Kiai, Kienzan, Solar Flare, Telepathy, Mafuba, etc.

I'm not demanding we do a verse-wide overhaul, but stopping all pages from being forced to share the same wall of text format would be a boon.
Sorry for a late response, sorry if we veered off to different points of discussion.

I agree with OP, references are needed. I vehemently disagree with this idea. Requiring each and every ability to be laid out in as intensive a manner as possible leads solely to exponential requirements for pages. For example, if you required, say, the Ashen One from Dark Souls 3 to have literally everything laid out on the profile, you'd be looking at, most likely, a 100k+ byte addition.

The notion is absurd.

Still, absolutely make references a requirement, though some standard format for references for things like video games will be needed.
 

Promestein

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References should be standardized, use a combination of P&A and Notable Attacks/Techniques for specification. P&A should give you the basics and why, Notable Attacks/Techniques should further explain and dissect things. P&A is fine as is. Just use tabbers if you have to.
 

Dark-Carioca

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I agree with the idea. Others have made the same point, it's simply more helpful to have them.

So long as the page isn't cluttered with references, of course.
 

Crabwhale

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I agree but how would the references integrate with the already present scans link on the profiles themselves?
 

DarkDragonMedeus

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I'm not sure if a reference section should be 100% mandatory, but I personally think it's highly recommended for book verses, and for manga to mention chapter and page for each scan. The hard part is for video game verses, since most people would usually link to Let's Play videos and not sure if there's a place to reference source that. But there are ways to set up URLs to automatically go for the timestamp. Though, if it comes from an instruction manual, the page number can be listed. As for movies, timestamps are kind of hard to calculate sometimes depending on movie version and the like. But scenes could be sourced given that DVDs and Blue Ray typically have scene selection and the like.
 
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I'm not sure if a reference section should be 100% mandatory, but I personally think it's highly recommended for book verses, and for manga to mention chapter and page for each scan. The hard part is for video game verses, since most people would usually link to Let's Play videos and not sure if there's a place to reference source that. But there are ways to set up URLs to automatically go for the timestamp. Though, if it comes from an instruction manual, the page number can be listed. As for movies, timestamps are kind of hard to calculate sometimes depending on movie version and the like. But scenes could be sourced given that DVDs and Blue Ray typically have scene selection and the like.
Yeah, it should be mandatory for manga chapters, comic books and novels but in the case of video games it should be optional and not enforced.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

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How strict exactly is this going to be? Because would be asking a lot to expect me to through the hundreds to thousands of profiles i have made to add reference sections.

Also if i make a profile that has a ton of abilities, its not gonna have a reference section immediately, that would happen overtime, since that's a lot of work, granted i guess i could just keep it in sandbox until that's all ready.

Creating verses are time consuming, this is one more thing on top of it, feeling pretty unmotivated now towards creating entire verses that are gonna take a lot of time and nobody else cares for.
 

Promestein

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This would be a gradual process.

For video games, either timestamp a video or have the reference specify the quote and moment if possible
 

Antvasima

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How strict exactly is this going to be? Because would be asking a lot to expect me to through the hundreds to thousands of profiles i have made to add reference sections.

Also if i make a profile that has a ton of abilities, its not gonna have a reference section immediately, that would happen overtime, since that's a lot of work, granted i guess i could just keep it in sandbox until that's all ready.

Creating verses are time consuming, this is one more thing on top of it, feeling pretty unmotivated now towards creating entire verses that are gonna take a lot of time and nobody else cares for.
It is not going to be enforced exactly, as that is not realistic, but it should be very heavily encouraged to use references for the more important content of pages.

Also, as I think that Promestein said, there is no hurry. We are just initiating a gradual process that will likely take years to apply reasonably well.
 

Antvasima

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Anyway, it seems like Damage's suggestion about bullet point style powers and abilities sections has been rejected.
 

Celestial_Pegasus

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I don't really have a problem if its not gonna be enforced, just encouraged.

My concern really was how time consuming this would be, but if it's just a matter of referencing where like a massive ability like concept manipulation, plot manipulation, causality manipulation etc are from, and it's not a matter of reference where every single ability is from, and its a gradual process, this is fairly reasoning i think.

As long as we aren't being pedantic, demanding to know where minor stuff like fire manipulation or air manipulation are from.
 

Damage3245

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Anyway, it seems like Damage's suggestion about bullet point style powers and abilities sections has been rejected.
I definitely wasn't suggesting that it be a mandatory enforcement on profiles, but being a bit more flexible on that section wouldn't hurt.

Some profiles would benefit from it and some would not.
 

Antvasima

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I don't really have a problem if its not gonna be enforced, just encouraged.

My concern really was how time consuming this would be, but if it's just a matter of referencing where like a massive ability like concept manipulation, plot manipulation, causality manipulation etc are from, and it's not a matter of reference where every single ability is from, and its a gradual process, this is fairly reasoning i think.

As long as we aren't being pedantic, demanding to know where minor stuff like fire manipulation or air manipulation are from.
Well, as I mentioned earlier, it is not remotely realistic for us to go around deleting any pages that do not use references, but it should be extremely heavily encouraged.

Also, as you said, the more major abilities are far more important to reference than the minor self-evident ones.
I definitely wasn't suggesting that it be a mandatory enforcement on profiles, but being a bit more flexible on that section wouldn't hurt.

Some profiles would benefit from it and some would not.
Yes. Agreed, but it seems like other prominent staff members here do not think that it would be appropriate.
 

Antvasima

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Anyway, I need suggestions for how to rewrite the standard format page, the editing rules page, and the welcome message page in appropriate manners.

We should preferably also write a specific page about our new standards for when and how to use references properly in our wiki, in order to simplify things for our members, and make them less confused. It should mention examples for comic books and manga, games, books, movies and TV shows.

We could simply call the new page "References" or somesuch.

After all of our preparations have been finished, I can start a highlighted news & announcements thread.
 

Armorchompy

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Just so I'm sure I understand correctly, even for profiles made in the future, we're not gonna be deleting them if they don't have references, right? Because that's a lot to ask of normal users making their first page, for example
 

QuasiYuri

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Just so I'm sure I understand correctly, even for profiles made in the future, we're not gonna be deleting them if they don't have references, right? Because that's a lot to ask of normal users making their first page, for example
First pages usually have worse problem than that.
We should still try to make it a thing, otherwise nobody will put references because it would mean actually searching for feats or would "take too much time"
 

Antvasima

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We realistically cannot start to go around deleting profile pages that are otherwise fine, but we need to make very clear that references are by far preferable to no references.

Suggestions regarding how to properly and efficiently get that message across would be very appreciated.
 

QuasiYuri

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Maybe make it a must at least for the AP/Speed stuff only?
Like I don't mind not seeing a scan for Superman having laser eyes, but would like to know where to find his feat N°584594.
 

Damage3245

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We could make a "Citation needed" template and add that on to sections that seem like they could easily have references supplied.

It doesn't fix the problem but it would help spread awareness and gradually result in profiles being fixed as the citation template is replaced with references.
 

Antvasima

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I suppose that might be an idea, but I am not at all enthusiastic about us launching a project to add such a template to around 27,000 pages. The infobox project should be handled before that.

My ideas so far are to highlight an information thread about this to inform our members, to update our standard format for character profiles, editing rules, and welcome message pages, to write a new references information page, and to mention it briefly in the first page of the wiki, with a link to the aforementioned references information page.

I need some help with this though.
 

Jasonsith

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I generally see quotation of references from game chapters or stages or cut scenes of a video game a parallel to calling out chapters from an issue of a comic book.
 

Damage3245

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Not suggesting we try to add it to all pages. But if we start with a few noteworthy pages as examples, it would get the message out.

And I do think that the infoboxes take priority either way.
 

Armorchompy

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I'm fine with "far preferable" but I don't think it should be obligatory even for pages made in the future, I understand the concern that no one will do it if that's the case but I like to think that those who have the time and interest to write down references would do it anyway for the sake of a higher quality page.
 

Antvasima

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I generally see quotation of references from game chapters or stages or cut scenes of a video game a parallel to calling out chapters from an issue of a comic book.
What do you mean?
Not suggesting we try to add it to all pages. But if we start with a few noteworthy pages as examples, it would get the message out.

And I do think that the infoboxes take priority either way.
It makes them look bad stylistically though. I much prefer the approaches that I mentioned earlier, but I still need help with this.
I'm fine with "far preferable" but I don't think it should be obligatory even for pages made in the future, I understand the concern that no one will do it if that's the case but I like to think that those who have the time and interest to write down references would do it anyway for the sake of a higher quality page.
Well, if we manage to turn references into a massive trend that encompasses virtually all of our wiki pages after a few years, we might be able to apply stricter standards than I suggested above, but not otherwise.
 

DontTalkDT

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How would you put "Resistance to Fire Manipulation (Can survive fire attacks)" or "Breaking the Fourth Wall (Expressed annoyance at the lack of boss battles in the arena)" in NA/T?
The first needs no explanation. Just saying there exists a feat of surviving fire attacks adds nothing. It's like saying "has demonstrated fire resistance". A reference to a feat where the character survives fire attacks would do.
For the latter: Either make a bullet point in the Notable A/T section called "Breaking the Fourth Wall" and go into a bit more detail (e.g. "X expressed annoyance at the lack of boss battles in the area, despite there being no reason that a boss battle there would be something expected there. This indicates that the character likely has some degree of awareness of the fourth wall." would do). Or you could also show the feat in question in the feats section.
We could make a "Citation needed" template and add that on to sections that seem like they could easily have references supplied.

It doesn't fix the problem but it would help spread awareness and gradually result in profiles being fixed as the citation template is replaced with references.
Reminds me of the explanation needed template from back in the days. That never really caught on.
I think people probably don't like to make an edit to something just to say "someone else should fix this". Well, if we did it as a staff project it's a different story, but that won't happen.
Just so I'm sure I understand correctly, even for profiles made in the future, we're not gonna be deleting them if they don't have references, right? Because that's a lot to ask of normal users making their first page, for example
For page making it's definitely a little difficult. However, perhaps we could require it when CRT's are getting applied in the future? Since CRTs already need to present the source material, which the changes are based on, the reference for where stuff comes from should be available in them anyway. So it wouldn't be a lot of extra effort to add them to the page, too, at that point.
 

Antvasima

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For page making it's definitely a little difficult. However, perhaps we could require it when CRT's are getting applied in the future? Since CRTs already need to present the source material, which the changes are based on, the reference for where stuff comes from should be available in them anyway. So it wouldn't be a lot of extra effort to add them to the page, too, at that point.
This may be a good idea.
 

Antvasima

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My ideas so far are to highlight an information thread about this to inform our members, to update our standard format for character profiles, editing rules, and welcome message pages, to write a new references information page, and to mention it briefly in the first page of the wiki, with a link to the aforementioned references information page.

I need some help with this though.
Well, I think that this seems like something good to initially focus on before we proceed with further and stricter requirements.
 

Eficiente

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I believe something that could help a lot for users to make them add in references would be to have the page to make CRTs link in its text examples of CRTs made in an organized way & with references, so that users may imitate that or give themselves a better idea of what to do. Change some wording in the rules is needed and all but this might help as much, if not more on how they realistically come here and make threads. Otherwise we would need to give them a push in how our standards should be ourselves when they do things like always.
 

Antvasima

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I am not sure if that is a good idea. Linking to the standards format for character profiles page and our upcoming references page in the header text for the content revisions forum would likely be more useful, but would still seem very out of place.
 

Antvasima

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My ideas so far are to highlight an information thread about this to inform our members, to update our standard format for character profiles, editing rules, and welcome message pages, to write a new references information page, and to mention it briefly in the first page of the wiki, with a link to the aforementioned references information page.

I need some help with this though.
Are any of you willing to help me with the wiki information page work described above please? I would greatly appreciate it.

After we are done, I can write a new news and announcements forum thread about them on my own.
 

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer

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I am not sure if that is a good idea. Linking to the standards format for character profiles page and our upcoming references page in the header text for the content revisions forum would likely be more useful, but would still seem very out of place.
Is the result of all this going to look like the standard character format page?
 

Mr._Bambu

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Are any of you willing to help me with the wiki information page work described above please? I would greatly appreciate it.

After we are done, I can write a new news and announcements forum thread about them on my own.
What help would you need done, Ant? I don't have the most professional tendency towards language but if I'm able to help I gladly will.
 

Antvasima

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Anyway, I need suggestions for how to rewrite the standard format page, the editing rules page, and the welcome message page in appropriate manners.

We should preferably also write a specific page about our new standards for when and how to use references properly in our wiki, in order to simplify things for our members, and make them less confused. It should mention examples for comic books and manga, games, books, movies and TV shows.

We could simply call the new page "References" or somesuch.

After all of our preparations have been finished, I can start a highlighted news & announcements thread.
Thank you for the offer to help.

I basically need help with the above issues, based on our earlier discussion here in this thread.

Also, should I remove the "Optional" text from the references section of the standard format for character profiles page and the corresponding section of its header image?
 

Antvasima

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Is the result of all this going to look like the standard character format page?
If you are referring to the new references page, I think that it should mainly feature elaborate explanations regarding how to use them properly in our wiki, as well as our associated rules/standard conventions.
 

Elizhaa

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Also, should I remove the "Optional" text from the references section of the standard format for character profiles page and the corresponding section of its header image?
It seems fine.
 
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