IMPORTANT: Major Supernatural Revisions.

[Gwynbleiddd]

I will explain myself now then (f*** sleep)

1.Misc Feats

Ripping apart the banker's door is Wall level since he only needed to break a small amount of steel and a few grams of TNT can easily bend a steel plate (while bullets can penetrate it)

Yeah the phoenix can turn a human into ashes which is indeed Small Building level

Multiple bullets are low Wall level but i'm not sure about the explosion.Smashing a human head is Street level.

Yeah Dick Roman said that the leviathans would wipe all demons but that isn't a feat that can be calced.

Leviathans can kill angels due to some special hierarchy that exists in the Supernatural world, for example Eve said that she knows the angels weak points (or something like that) thus being able to negate Castiel's powers.

War destroyed a very small bridge off screen and i thing the bridge was shown on the episode.But i don't think it's enough to make him Building level, possibly Small Building level.

2.Demon feats

Two tons of pressure = around 20000 N

Work = F*x = 20000*0.2 = 4000 Joules (Street level+) the energy needed to push that door.Also the same demon had trouble against Sam and Dean.

Azazel can indeed create a thunderstorm but why should it translate into Attack Potency?It is more of a enviromental destruction feat that can also be interpreted as an outlier or an incosistance since authors don't really care for such things.

I don't get why are tremors Small Building level, dropping a heavy object on the floor can cause a small tremor so Wall level is more appropriate for the feat.

Abaddon't screams do cause lightning but it is once again an iffy situation where i can simply ask why should this be scaled to Attack Potency since she doesn't use it on combat.

Astaroth stopping a bullet is literally the only feat that is legitimately above Human level so considering that we have 11 seasons of humans keeping up with demons i think it's pretty safe to call it an outlier.(Some may disagree by calling this 11 seasons of PIS or CIS but there are characters with super speed in the supernatural verse whose appearance doesn't involve this kind of PIS/CIS)

Lilith's feat is indeed Small Building level

3.Angel feats

Except for the fact that angels can teleport so they don't need all this stuff to achieve such a feat.

I didn't remember that about Samdriel, i will look into it.

Hael created the Grand Canyon over an unknown period of time, i guess then i could just dig a big hole on the ground in the spam of a few hours and then be ranked as Wall level.

We have already discussed this and even DontTalk agreed with me that it can't be used since angels posses supernatural senses that allow them to locate people and things across the world so on can just assume that Castiel teleported to a place where he had a better view and just didn't found anything.

In season 11 Castiel says that town smiting has been done in the past by the entire Host of heaven not just 2 angels.It is also a very vague statement that isn't supported by anything shown in the series.

The Staff of Moses is one of heaven's mightiest weapon's with Lot's stone destroying the vessel of Raphael so no regular angel is powerscaled to this.

4.Archangel tier feats

Considering their current stats and that many angels died from falling from heaven (around 120-170 kg TNT, Small Building level), killing a few thousand of them would require City Block to Multi-City Block level AP.

He saw the apocalypse as an inevitable event so he was already kinda used to the idea of the "destruction" of the earth.

Raphael's presence causes a blackout across a great area, but even The Everlasting questioned wether that feat was good enough for Raphael to be ranked as Country level so i changed the reasoning to "shoudln't be much weaker than his older brothers".And no it's not Small Country level

Earhquakes (7-8 richer) are Large Town to City level

Gabriel's TV channels aren't that big, most of them were shown to be Building sized except the last one in which we saw Dean drive for like a minute of two (at best Town sized)

Holy fire banished Michael but Metatron didn't even touch it and Lucifer can also put out holy fire while it is enhanced by sigil magic.Also the angel tablet should give Metatron the ability to overcome angel weaknesses because it it the angel tablet and is specifically made for angels.

God Castiel = Multi Continent to Small Planet level but since Death is Multi Continent and we don't know who is more powerful it is better to play it safe.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

... So all the downplay I already debunked.

Also, even if it took Hael a year to dig up the Grand Canyon it's still Town level.

Environmental Destruction isn't a thing. Generating a storm or lightning requires joules, energy.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

5.God tier feats

It is unknown who caused the flood, Metatron implyed that God did it and yes it is a Multi Continent level feat.

The kinetic energy of the Moon is Multi Continent level and since we don't have a timeframe that's the value that should be used.

Death claimed that the age of the milky way is insignificant, not the galaxy itself.

This is already somewhat accepted but it's validity is questionable since the statement was followed by one of the worst hyperboles i've ever heard (1 soul = 100 suns)

It is kind of a ying yang thing that only affects that one universe, in any other case they couldn't have done the same thing.

World doesn't necessarily mean universe


@Matthew instead of having that ironic/sarcastic tone just try to counter act my arguments.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"World doesn't necessarily mean universe"

Now you are just being ridiculous with that context.

"Yin Yang"

If God's death leads to the death of the universe because God IS half of existence (Light), the nit is scalable.

All your other downplays are covered in the Blog Post.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Are you freaking kiding me, i just gave you an answer for every single thing you mentioned in the blog post.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No you didn't, you just re-stated the downplays I mentioned in my Blog, all of which I already answered.

You are so desperate at this point, either saying "Hyperbole", "Inconsistency", or assuming the smallest possible time frames or outright ignoring feats.

Even if it took Hael 1 year non-stop to make the Grand Canyon, it's still Town level.

Casually causing storms is Large Town Level.

Before God sealed The Darkness, she used to destroy every universe God created, that is outright stated.

At this point nothing you say can make the verse still this low.

 

[Abel_Nightroad_Rules]

I support this upgrade.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Wait are you serious?Do you really think you answerd every single point i made?You said something then i said my opinion addressing some things i found wrong about your opinion but then you answer that your original opinion counteracts my reasoning because ?

Just checked, it is indeed Town level if it took Hael 1 year to create the canyon (using pulverization) but that doesn't really mean anything, the timeframe is still unknown.

Creating a very powerful storm the size of big cities is Large Town level but i don't think Azazel affected such a big area or that his storms were that powerful.And again it is enviromental destruction, can a storm defeat someone who can tank a nuclear bomb? I don't think so.

You are the one ignoring feats, in fact you try to upgrade the verse by ignoring feats.Hael couldn't even heal from a car crush.

ANGELS DIED FROM FALLING FROM THE SKY and the best solid feats angels and demons have are Small Building level.

You are the one who is desperate and trying to move around my points instead of answering directly.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I am fine with these upgrades, although I will need a little clarification on the whole MHS+/Teleportation stuff.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Kka

I am dining now, but please read the Downplay Debunking section of the blog. I adress all you said on your last few posts there.

 

[Alakabamm]

This is quite a lot, so let me just state my opinions about the suggestions and any counterarguments made:

I don't really see a whole lot of justification for building level, so I will have to agree on Small Building level for Demons scaling from the explosion/vaporization feat.

Speed looks fine for Demons.

I personally think weather can scale to AP so I am fine with Azazel.

Unsure where Small City level is coming from? If its' just scaling to Azazel it should be at least Large Town level I think.

I think the calc is fine because it appears to be presented as a speed feat BUT I disagree with a premise in the calc.

DeerLord says the following: "I think a fair low end estimate is that he'd be able to spot it from 5m in both directions so I'll divide the area by 10 to get the distance."

Ignoring the 5m assumption as relevant, you would still have m^2 if you just divide by 10. If you are talking about an area of 5m from the viewer, it should be envisioned as a circle with an area of pi(r)^2. Hence, you need to divide the area of the city by pi(5m)^2 = 78.53, which gets you the number of "circles" that make up the city and then multiply by the distance between the center of each circle (10m). So the final result should be 394,704.26 m/s or Mach 1150.7.

I don't agree that the Archangel feats appear to surpass Multi-Continent level, as Kka has stated.

However, I think that there are enough universe statements to justify that for Death/God/Amara. So that should be fine.

As for the speed, maybe that is fine for Amara/God...but didn't Death get killed by one of the human main characters after he failed to react? Seems like a pretty big discrepancy to me.

I think that covers it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Alakabamm

Thank you for your imput. I agree with most of your decisions.

You are probably right about Death's speed, it is incredibly weird.

However, strong demons should be Building level+ cause Abaddon can create Lightning strikes. According to this , the average Lightning Bolt carries around 2700000 Watts-Hour, or 9720000000 joules of energy, which is 2.323135755 tons of tnt.

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, those aren't the exact averages but a better approximation would be the same tier so I suppose that is fine.

 

[DontTalk]

Just to that one speed feat calc. (I will read through the rest tomorrow)

Wasn't there some discussion on that one before?

 

[Alakabamm]

Thinking about it, I am fine with your suggestion in there as well. However, why 0.5? I'm unsure if we should presume 180 degrees of vision if they are heavily supernatural beings.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

After reading through the thread and its replies, I find myself pretty much in agreement with Alakabamm's points, which would indeed warrant upgrades.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

After reading through the thread and its replies, I find myself pretty much in agreement with Alakabamm's points, which would indeed warrant upgrades.

Sugoi, Azzy!

 

[DontTalk]

Thinking about it, I am fine with your suggestion in there as well. However, why 0.5? I'm unsure if we should presume 180 degrees of vision if they are heavily supernatural beings.

Well, I was told they don't show any supernatural senses at all.

If we assume that they might have some, due to being incredibly powerful suernatural beings, then they might also have 100m x-ray vision, which would turn the feat meaningless.

 

[Alakabamm]

Yes, that sounds reasonable now that I think about it.

Though Castiel probably needs this to be listed in intelligence as well, since this is a very heavy perception feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Castiel needs a severe intelligence upgrade. The profile lists him as average, but as of now he has "read" every single piece of fiction ever published.

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt that definitely seems like something that would justify a "Vastly Superhuman" if true.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matt that definitely seems like something that would justify a "Vastly Superhuman" if true.

METATRON

Tonight, I thought I'd tell you a little story...Let you decide. That was my plan, anyway. I guess that's where my story failed. [he stops the music and removes CASTIEL's gag. He then pulls back CASTIEL's coat and looks at the torn pocket.] Yes. This is "The Curious Incident," eh, inspector Gregory?

CASTIEL

Who?

METATRON

Inspector Gregory. Sherlock Holmes. "Silver Blaze"? [He rolls his eyes, exasperated] You have been around since scaly things crawled out of the muck. Would it have killed you to pick up a book, watch a movie? [sighs] Here. I know it's a bit of a retcon, but it's gonna make this whole conversation a lot easier.

[He presses his fingers to CASTIEL's head and CAS reels back and gasps in pain]

I just gave you every book, movie, and TV show I have consumed in the last couple of millennia. Now do you understand that "the universe is made up of stories, not atoms"?

CASTIEL

[still a little confused] I understand that that's a... a quote by Muriel Rukeyser.

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt Wouldn't this also scale to some insane reaction timing?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ryu

Nah bro. It was done magically by God Metatron.

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt Alright. Still impressive nonetheless.

 

[PaChi2]

The Solar System rating for God and co sounds a bit too much imo, that would make the whole "Archangels and God beat the Darkness" nothing since 4 Planet level beings are nonfactor in a Solar System tier battle (and Metatron said that the creation took time and effort, so... the Universal ranking... I'm not buying it). Also, that rating comes from the 10.000 supernovas thing? I'd call that an outlier or inconsistency because later they claim souls were like stars? (and if I remember correctly, if souls were like that, Castiel would have been like a MASSIVE star). Also you have the witches/demons damaging The Darkness, which is another inconsistency however you look, so... I'd put them Unknown since their Power seems to vary each showing.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. My main concern is that some of the feats seem to be uncalculated guesswork.

Ripping apart a bunker's door is pretty straightforward, but some calculations for the higher feats would be appreciated.

Also, please keep a civil tone towards each other.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hmm. My main concern is that some of the feats seem to be uncalculated guesswork.
Ripping apart a bunker's door is pretty straightforward, but some calculations for the higher feats would be appreciated.

Also, please keep a civil tone towards each other.

Okay, thank you for your input regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that Alakabamm mostly seems to make sense, but do not wish any disrespect towards Kkapoios.

 

[PaChi2]

just as a comment, but I think God and Amara are not "Light and Darkness" although they were once referred like that. If I remember correctly, God said something like they were "Being and Void" and therefore God dieing would mean that even Amara would cease to "be". On a side note (because I didnt say this in my first post): yes, I also think the spn verse is downplayed, yet, the high tiers are very inconsistent and shouldnt be rated only by statements because it would make all a mess and incoherent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The problem is, PaChi2, is that one of these statements describes something that actually happened in the past in the SPN Verse. I.E, God creating worlds (In this context, universes, as this happened before the Universe's creation) and The Darkness destroying them. Even if it took billions of years for either to happen (Simply absurd), it would still be 3-B.

 

[PaChi2]

Hm, but God said they were universes? Because I think he said that Amara destroyed them as soon as he created them, so, if he were to create a planet, the planet would be destroyed inmediatly. And that is why he needed to seal Amara, to create something that could last. You could have them at small star level tho, and they would be able to create simple solar systems like ours rather easily. But, well, have them be 3-B, the show is very inconsistent (Im not complaining) but the portrayal of those two is random (Amara varies from being defeated to defeat god AND lucifer in seconds), so any rating is difficult, that is why I said unknown, too many PIS. Surely, God should be 3-B at least if anything would make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Pachi2

She was never defeated. IF she was truly legit hurt by the combined energies, she wouldn't be able to hurt God and Lucifer.

 

[PaChi2]

You think so? She told him to kill her and changed her mind when he was sealing her. But what at least seriously hurt her was Lucifer piercing through her... stomach? or chest? either way, that must have hurt, imo. Btw, Crowley is superior to an ordinary demon, where do you put him?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, I don't know. Small Building level, maybe?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

this seems reasonable

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

So we will ignore the fact that angels died from a Small Building level "attack", that pretty much all of their legit feats don't go beyond Small Building level and base all of their stats in vague statements, outliers and a weird storm feat that is just enviromental destruction (because you can't hurt a Town level character with a storm) that is also possibly the most irrelevant feat.

I agree with PaChi2, if Amara destroyed God's creations immediately after their creation then they couldn't be universes since Metatron said that the universe took time and effort to be created.

Just to answer the Downplay Debunking part of the blog

1.You are right about the inconsistencies but all this is trying to skyrocket everyone based on statements.

2.The angels were weakened indeed so let's be generous and give them Building level durability and AP when they are at their full power (this will also match Castiel's statement about his true form being Building level)

3.If we ignore Astaroth every single other bullet dodging feat is "Character A points a gun at Crowley, Crowley teleports away while character A fires the gun".So Astaroth's feat is a Supersonic on in a vast sea of feats where humans keep up with demons.

Here i skip the God/Amara part since we've already had a discussion about that.

4.You miss my point, this was just an example.Angels have much higher senses than humans, Gadreel was able to locate Castiel from kilometers away and tracking stuff and people is already an element of the show.

5.Uriel said that they were going to smite the whole town and that it had been done before but in season 11 Castiel said that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by the combined smiting of the host of heaven which makes much more sense since individual angels have been seens smiting 1-2 people at a time with Seraph Castiel being the only exception because his white light smited 7 monsters.

Anyway, i give up, i don't agree with the changes, just don't have enough juice to keep arguing.

 

[PaChi2]

To be fair with the show, those feats to back up the statements are expensive to create so I understand if they don't make them (I think the most impressive one is the smiting to Amara?).

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I think that Kkapoios does seem to make some good points. If the vast majority of feats are of a much lower scale, and the higher feats are of a more vague and subjective nature, we do have a problem.

I have had similar problems with Marvel Comics. For example, the vast majority of the time, Thor and the Hulk are merely treated as building level, but we still gauge them by a few very unusually high feats. Of course, we consider the absolutely outlandishly high ones as outliers, but nevertheless.

 

[PaChi2]

The problem is that those showcases, at least exist, while in supernatural most of the big feats are via statements so you dont really know how they were performed.