"I'll sever your Inga!" - a conceptual GARO thread

[Minaaaa]

The Blog: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:MadamRider/GARO:_Makai_Metaphysics (All translations were verified via the translation thread)

If accepted, the Soul section on Makai Knight & Horrors pages will be changed to this (Thanks to @Divini for writing this)
Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1 - Can affect souls, which are one with the mind, life and essence of every being and predates all of humanity, existing as a primordial consciousness that is outside space and time. The mind gave birth to Igna, the darkness that exists in everything in the universe and the hearts of all humans)

Agree -
Neutral -
Disagree -

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

I don't like Mim so I will disagree.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Agree here

 

[Kellex]

 

[Divini]

Looks good!

 

[Gonzalo]

Agree

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I honestly dont see anything that fulfills the burden of proof for conceptual manipulation. It's just generic description of the soul and a vague abstract thing that refers to the evil that arises from the heart/soul (darkness).

 

[BoastJr]

I will agree for no reason because MGQ disagreed for good reason

I am helping

 

[Hecky2222]

I will agree for no reason because MGQ disagreed for good reason

I am helping

LMAOOO

 

[Minaaaa]

I honestly dont see anything that fulfills the burden of proof for conceptual manipulation. It's just generic description of the soul and a vague abstract thing that refers to the evil that arises from the heart/soul (darkness).

The soul is the source of life for all things on earth as everything spawns from it. Inga is the inherent darkness in all humans & everything in the universe which the soul predates. Thoughts being able to exist outside of time and space due to Zaji implicated that it doesnt need space-time or humanity to exist, thus making it independent of said things

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The soul is the source of life for all things on earth as everything spawns from it. Inga is the inherent darkness in all humans & everything in the universe which the soul predates. Thoughts being able to exist outside of time and space due to Zaji implicated that it doesnt need space-time or humanity to exist, thus making it independent of said things

That's not remotely close to conceptual manip though. You need a lot stronger proof than vague abstract ubiquitous objects.

 

[Hecky2222]

Genuinely I am seeing not strong proof from blog where soul "defines and governs" whole existence.

You prolly could argue CM3 via souls being essence, but soul itself in fact core so it prolly can be brushed off. (Although CM3 is easy to get, FraudScalerEver is very strict about concepts)

 

[Robo432343]

i agree with @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Genuinely I am seeing not strong proof from blog where soul "defines and governs" whole existence.

You prolly could argue CM3 via souls being essence, but soul itself in fact core so it prolly can be brushed off. (Although CM3 is easy to get, FraudScalerEver is very strict about concepts)

I'm not being strict. A lot of verses get approved for shoddy reasons because a lot of staff dont even know what a concept is and just approve it for anything vaguely abstract. Also essence has a lot of usages and what qualifies for concept manip is essential attributes of a thing, or a defining property. Meanwhile in fiction stuff like life essence to refer to life energy or essence to refer to the soul is common as hell and is a generic descriptor for the soul among other things. Because the soul is indeed essential for life in a lot of cases.

 

[Hecky2222]

I'm not being strict. A lot of verses get approved for shoddy reasons because a lot of staff dont even know what a concept is. Also essence has a lot of usages and what qualifies for concept manip is essential attributes of a thing, or a defining property. Meanwhile in fiction stuff like life essence to refer to life energy or essence to refer to the soul is common as hell and is a generic descriptor for the soul among other things. Because the soul is indeed essential for life in a lot of cases.

by "strict" here I meant whataboutism, not that you are wrong , obviously you can just say CMs that got approved aren't concepts which something I don't disagree with, but like for me it is genuinely cringe if one verse wouldn't get ability via reasons almost 90% verses have that bullshit(You could prolly tell smth like that about Ac4 but well)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I will be honest... I am having a hard time seeing how this is CM... And let's say if it was, it would at most be CM3...

 

[Mythic381]

I'd agree based on the gorgeous formatting.

For the reasonings? Yeah no.

The soul is the source of life for all things on earth as everything spawns from it.

Isn't that just what a soul is? The metaphysical aspect that serves as the essence of all living beings?

Inga is the inherent darkness in all humans & everything in the universe which the soul predates.

That's not really much of support.

Thoughts being able to exist outside of time and space due to Zaji implicated that it doesnt need space-time or humanity to exist, thus making it independent of said things

I don't think being able to exist without space-time is that good of supporting evidence. All concepts are abstract.

 

[Minaaaa]

That's not remotely close to conceptual manip though. You need a lot stronger proof than vague abstract ubiquitous objects.

What "stronger proof"? Inga itself is already an inherent darkness in all humans & existing in all things in the universe (the original text using shinrabansho to describe it). The soul predating and spawning this Universal aspect & life itself (as life only existed as a consciousness without form until evolving into humans & horrors) + existing beyond time and space due to Zaji being composed of the thoughts that exist outside the universe, making the soul independent of the thing it governs (life) while also shaping it

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

What "stronger proof"? Inga itself is already an inherent darkness in all humans & existing in all things in the universe (the original text using shinrabansho to describe it). The soul predating and spawning this Universal aspect & life itself (as life only existed as a consciousness without form until evolving into humans & horrors) + existing beyond time and space due to Zaji being composed of the thoughts that exist outside the universe, making the soul independent of the thing it governs (life) while also shaping it

No proof of it being the governing idea or definition behind the thing. Or the what-it-is-to-be-x. None of these add up for something to be a concept and only vaguely match up to what a concept can do (but arent sufficient conditions for something to qualify as a concept).

 

[Robo432343]

i wouldn't be surprised this gets accepted as CM 1 given literally anything is accepted as cm 1 these days

 

[Minaaaa]

No proof of it being the governing idea or definition behind the thing. Or the what-it-is-to-be-x. None of these add up for something to be a concept and only vaguely match up to what a concept can do (but arent sufficient conditions for something to qualify as a concept).

Why not? Essence already implies that, along with covering mind, body/form, soul & life energy. Humans literally not existing before the soul and spawning from it would make it their definition as it as it, quite literally, formed them

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Why not? Essence already implies that, along with covering mind, body/form, soul & life energy. Humans literally not existing before the soul and spawning from it would make it their definition as it as it, quite literally, formed them

Again none of these necessitate a thing being a concept. Essence is a generic term used for anything important to a being, not strictly concepts. A verse ideally in context or more exactly refer to the qualifying type of essence. None of what you said also suddenly make this a concept. The soul containing one’s mind, being someone’s life and essential to their body does not necessarily make it a concept and it ends up as a false equivalence just because there are some similarities to a concept rather than any sufficient proof.

 

[Minaaaa]

Again none of these necessitate a thing being a concept. Essence is a generic term used for anything important to a being, not strictly concepts. A verse ideally in context or more exactly refer to the qualifying type of essence. None of what you said also suddenly make this a concept. The soul containing one’s mind, being someone’s life and essential to their body does not necessarily make it a concept and it ends up as a false equivalence just because there are some similarities to a concept rather than any sufficient proof.

What about this wouldnt count as a concept? It meets the requirements for conceptual manipulation as it defines all things in the universe (due to inga), shapes them & exists independently of them while also being able to exist outside of reality, meaning if reality was destroyed, the soul wouldn't be affected.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

What about this wouldnt count as a concept? It meets the requirements for conceptual manipulation as it defines all things in the universe (due to inga), shapes them & exists independently of them while also being able to exist outside of reality, meaning if reality was destroyed, the soul wouldn't be affected.

You're doing a bunch of extrapolation for stuff that the scans dont really say. It just says darkness exists in all things. None of it says it's the very definition of a thing but is instead a pervading darkness born from the evil hearts of man.

You're also not trying to get actual evidence of it being a concept and instead relate it by "well it does things that concept can or could do", when those stuff aren't exclusive to a concept.

 

[Minaaaa]

You're doing a bunch of extrapolation for stuff that the scans dont really say. It just says darkness exists in all things. None of it says it's the very definition of a thing but is instead a pervading darkness born from the evil hearts of man.

Explicitly saying it's a "definition" is not required, especially when it says the soul contains all these aspects while predating humans. You cant say it doesnt define them when they literally are born from the soul and has all aspects of their existence. The scans makes this pretty clear; Inga is a darkness that permeates all things in the universe due to the inherent evil nature of human hearts. The soul predates & is the source of Inga and life on earth while having no form.

You're also not trying to get actual evidence of it being a concept and instead relate it by "well it does things that concept can or could do", when those stuff aren't exclusive to a concept.

What is the wiki's accepted definition of a concept and why does it not apply?
Does the soul shape & define all objects within its area of influence? proven in the first section of the blog
Does it exist independently of said objects? due to existing before said objects & the ability to exist outside of space-time
What doesnt qualify about this using the wiki's definition of a concept?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Explicitly saying it's a "definition" is not required, especially when it says the soul contains all these aspects while predating humans. You cant say it doesnt define them when they literally are born from the soul and has all aspects of their existence. The scans makes this pretty clear; Inga is a darkness that permeates all things in the universe due to the inherent evil nature of human hearts. The soul predates & is the source of Inga and life on earth while having no form.

What is the wiki's accepted definition of a concept and why does it not apply?
Does the soul shape & define all objects within its area of influence? proven in the first section of the blog
Does it exist independently of said objects? due to existing before said objects & the ability to exist outside of space-time
What doesnt qualify about this using the wiki's definition of a concept?

It ultimately ends up as none of this being sufficient requirements for the ability. The concept page itself isn't very clear which causes people to think some similarities to the stuff on the page = being an actual concept. Despite it just saying what a concept does rather than what you need to be a concept.

I feel like nothing else I say will come through to you so I'll stop engaging and just wait for staff.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

It ultimately ends up as none of this being sufficient requirements for the ability. The concept page itself isn't very clear which causes people to think some similarities to the stuff on the page = being an actual concept. Despite it just saying what a concept does rather than what you need to be a concept.

I feel like nothing else I say will come through to you so I'll stop engaging and just wait for staff.

I also should say that the concept types are just presupposing that the things doing what it says are already concepts, so I feel like that should be quite telling it's not listing stuff a thing needs to do in order to be a concept, or else we'd give concept manip to all info type 2, plot manip, souls, whatever the ****.

 

[Hecky2222]

I mean even by reading whole stuff you can js assume those souls are for ppl/whoever they are, so changing, killing them would kill that person

Like if souls were fundamental, changing them would alter reality in return(Which is definition of CM1, CM2 duh).

I can't blame OP though for not properly understanding cm since some verses literally got CM1 from js being independent from objects they govern. But like things you presented here is basic thing for souls. Soul is core for person by default. And if you genuinely want it push to concept(Which MQG already explained why it is not concept anyway) it would be CM3 at best ngl

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I agree with @BestMGQScalerEver on this. Nothing in the blog honestly fits the descriptors of Concepts, much less Type 1 concepts.

Now, even if it was to be accepted as a Concept (which is still unfeasible), it would not be Type 1 for a simple reason;

Additionally, we are also shown damaging the physical body, also damages the soul [7].

Which means the Soul is not independent of the body it supposedly defines, thus no Type 1.

 

[Minaaaa]

I mean even by reading whole stuff you can js assume those souls are for ppl/whoever they are, so changing, killing them would kill that person

Like if souls were fundamental, changing them would alter reality in return(Which is definition of CM1, CM2 duh).

I can't blame OP though for not properly understanding cm since some verses literally got CM1 from js being independent from objects they govern. But like things you presented here is basic thing for souls. Soul is core for person by default. And if you genuinely want it push to concept(Which MQG already explained why it is not concept anyway) it would be CM3 at best ngl

The soul already fufills all the requirements,
Inga is a darkness that exists throughout all things in the universe, Inga itself is a manifestation of evil actions, thoughts & intentions arising from the evil hearts of humans which is why Horrors appear, this makes it an inherent form of evil that will always exists throughout reality while also needing things in reality to exist.

The Soul predates inga as it was THE first form of life on earth; aka the blueprint or origin of it (could also suggest the soul predates/created the concept of evil itself as it was the start of it due to humans naturally evil hearts). It would literally be the concept of life given that it shapes everything in its area of influence and gives it definition, everything participates in it; From humans, to horrors, even grass and trees (given they're both shown emitting the same gold particles and losing their color, turning gray as someone's life energy does). Someones soul can also affect reality, from creating spaces to literally pulling the world itself into it, showing some superiority over it. The soul would obviously exist independently of its aspect due to predating it but also due to Zaji being composed of the thoughts that exist outside of space-time, showing its independence from even the universe.

Now, even if it was to be accepted as a Concept (which is still unfeasible), it would not be Type 1 for a simple reason;


Which means the Soul is not independent of the body it supposedly defines, thus no Type 1.

Not really, the scan only exists to show the link between the body & form. Plus, the guy's a Horror, their main thing is eating people's soul through various ways. Plus, theres more things showing its independent of them; the aforemeantioned life scan, barago only existing as his evil heart, Jinga existing as a soul even after his body was destroyed, Zesshin only existing as a soul.

 

[Kellex]

Bump

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Not really, the scan only exists to show the link between the body & form. Plus, the guy's a Horror, their main thing is eating people's soul through various ways. Plus, theres more things showing its independent of them; the aforemeantioned life scan, barago only existing as his evil heart, Jinga existing as a soul even after his body was destroyed, Zesshin only existing as a soul.

That doesn't mean it can be used for something else, but sure, if its a horror then this point is null.

As for the 2 scans you sent

barago only existing as his evil heart

I will quote what the scan says:

At last, Barago revealed his appearance. His true identity was an existence in which his evil heart, remaining within the Kiba armor, had transformed into evil energy.

It only says that his true identity was an "existence" in which his heart itself is transformed into evil energy, not that he is said heart itself.

Though I do not know anything of this verse, so maybe there's some between the lines context I missed.

The 2nd scan looks good to prove independence.

However, my thoughts on whether its a concept to begin with remain the same; it's not.

 

[Kellex]

Bump

 

[Minaaaa]

Sorry, been busy with IRL stuff and figuring out how to respond.

First, The wiki defines a concept as this:
I'm pretty sure the standards for concepts are pretty clear. It either defines what a single existence is, defines all categories of what a certain existence is, and vice versa, or everything in reality sources itself from it, as the original definition.

According to the last part, This part perfectly fits the definition of what the soul is. The soul is the originator of all life on Earth as its first form and everything spawns from it (literally stated that this "consciousness" split off into two and evolved into humans, while the other became Horrors). It's lifes very essence, containing all aspects of its existence with characters losing their soul vanishing from reality. The soul's relationship with Inga makes it even more conceptual. Inga is described as negative emotions that exist in all things in creation/the universe, these emotions spawning from the evil actions/intentions of humans. Since anything can harbor Inga, from places where evil actions/intentions have took place & even entire celestial objects, showing that its not limited to just the scope of earth or just someone doing something evil, but encompasses all forms of negativity (whether thought or otherwise). Since all humans have an evil heart, this makes evil a fundamental part of humanity's existence, with the only way to stop inga (from Ago's words) would be to wipe out all humans. This would make negativity/ inga type 2 since it encompasses all aspects of reality but still relies on its objects to persist. the soul being ABOVE this, while predating & spawning it + existing independently of its objects, making it type 1

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm not being strict. A lot of verses get approved for shoddy reasons because a lot of staff dont even know what a concept is and just approve it for anything vaguely abstract

This dude definitely includes me in this comment but i have no proof

Inga (陰我)

The various kinds of darkness in this world that arise from the evil hearts of humans

Yay, concept type 1 but somehow arise from human hearts. This alone debunk any notion of concept

Non-Qualifying Concepts​

Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.

So literally Inga is non-qualifying concept as it is something completely dependent on mind, arise from it

So yeah i disagree with the thread

 

[Minaaaa]

This dude definitely includes me in this comment but i have no proof


Yay, concept type 1 but somehow arise from human hearts. This alone debunk any notion of concept


So literally Inga is non-qualifying concept as it is something completely dependent on mind, arise from it

So yeah i disagree with the thread

Inga wasn't the type 1 tho? It was soul

 

[Vietthai96]

Inga wasn't the type 1 tho? It was soul

Yeah no, as MGQ had said, being essence is an all-catching term referring to the important core of something. I could see that soul in the verse being an impressive thing that hold alot of important stuff but definitely not enough for CM

 

[Minaaaa]

Yeah no, as MGQ had said, being essence is an all-catching term referring to the important core of something. I could see that soul in the verse being an impressive thing that hold alot of important stuff but definitely not enough for CM

What IS enough for cm

 

[BonjourGnome]

What IS enough for cm

Mentioning that something is a concept

 

[Vietthai96]

What IS enough for cm

Something that is metaphysical (not overlaps with law, fate, causality, information) and it is define something in physical reality. Using your Inga for example, Inga is kind abstract Evil thing, if this Inga is independent of human mind and governs, responsible for all evil being in the reality, then that is concept. Of course there are some textbook statement like concept of A is the property that make A what it is but it is very rare

Mentioning that something is a concept

Namedrop concept do not always mean literal CM, cause there are non-qualifying concepts, as concept are simply product of mental thought. That why in order to have qualifying concepts said concepts need to be partially or completely independent of mind