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IDW Super Sonic Downgrade

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CrimsonStarFallen

CrimsonStarFallen

VS Battles
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So i noticed IDW Super Sonic got upgraded to Low 2-C. I have a problem with that.

The Feat

For one, nice job linking a bunch of scans that are broken lol. Seriously, i had to hunt down the thread to even find out what the feat was.

"created a 4-D structure, that ignores/bend the normal spatial law of the universe, thus making the structure able to go endlessly

IMG-20210612-140139.jpg

image0.jpg

RCO012-1620830058-1.jpg

These are the scans. Now, there's a pretty obvious problem here in that it's not growing infinitely at all. In the same ad-infinitum quote:

"The maze grows and folds on itself ad-infinitum"

It's not growing without limits, it's literally just constantly changing size via manipulation of space.

"But it's 4-D!"

Doesn't mean anything without additional context. Unless something in the comic supports higher dimensions containing uncountably infinite portions of 3-D space within them, it doesn't really mean much.

This is not a Low 2-C feat no matter how you slice it.

The Scaling

I really don't get it. From the original thread:

Then, what does this have to do with Super Forms? Well, this upscale them due to the nature of Super Forms being always superior to Eggman's machine by physical strength. This is always portrayed consistently throughout the Sonic franchise, that's why I think it's safe to assume that IDW will also fall into this.
Click to expand...

Not only is this blatantly untrue (I mean come on man. Also, like, Metal Sonic), but it's also literally an assumption. Why would Super Sonic be physically above a structure that only functions via hax anyway?

Conclusion

Feat is not even what it says it is, just space, size, physics and higher dimensional manip for Eggman.

Scaling is literally on founded on assumptions and headcanon.
 
Sonic Heroes metal sonic eats eggman's fleet and is then able to impede SS and friends, SS can't damage him on his own and needs to use team blasts.

There are also other instances of SS not stomping eggman bots. The final bosses of rush and rush adventure require 2 supers and can hurt the supers, and the final boss of mania can hurt super sonic. Also the unleashed intro exists.
 
Wokistan said:
Sonic Heroes metal sonic eats eggman's fleet and is then able to impede SS and friends, SS can't damage him on his own and needs to use team blasts.
Click to expand...
Also has the power of the entire cast and Chaos, also wasn’t built by eggman

Wokistan said:
The final bosses of rush and rush adventure
Click to expand...
Sol Emerald energy and Power of the Stars Respectively were needed to do that
Wokistan said:
and the final boss of mania can hurt super sonic. Also the unleashed intro exists.
Click to expand...
both more clearly based around Hax rather then pure power and the former needed the phantom ruby
 
Ok but like, that was only one point. The rest is still legit, and I agree with the downgrade.
 
Naturally I find scaling Sonic to a structure that functions based on warping physics and spatial laws quite strange, so I agree with the downgrade. We can’t scale him to hax
image0.jpg
 
also wasn’t built by eggman

Eggman definitely built his fleet and metal sonic.

Sol Emerald energy and Power of the Stars Respectively were needed to do that

Which is still an eggman machine

both more clearly based around Hax rather then pure power and the former needed the phantom ruby

Proof? Especially with unleashed where you see him trying to physically struggle against it.
 
How did that upgrade ever get approved? They're just existing in a dimension that is continually rearranging itself. This is a great feat to gauge the limits of Eggman's tech, but I don't see how it does anything for Sonic.
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
Not only is this blatantly untrue (I mean come on man.
Click to expand...
I wasn't really for or against the upgrade in the original thread, but I have an issue with this.

Sripping power away from Super Sonic via a machine is not a testament to Eggman's creations being "superior" to Super Sonic. All that means is that Eggman can create machinery to extract the energy/Chaos Emeralds from him.

The final bosses of rush and rush adventure require 2 supers and can hurt the supers
Click to expand...
Which required energy sources on par with the Chaos Emeralds. The Sol Emeralds were used in the former case and the Power of The Stars in the latter. Two energy sources that are the only way to harm Super Sonic in any way aside from Solaris, Dark Gaia in one version of Unleashed, Ix using the Master Emerald, and the Phantom Ruby.

Anyways, I fully agree with the downgrade but holy hell some of these points are very bad.
 
Wokistan said:
Eggman definitely built his fleet and metal sonic.
Click to expand...
Metal Overlord is the combination of the power of every cast member of the game, the reason it even looks like how it does is because it Copied the data of Chaos


Wokistan said:
Which is still an eggman machine
Click to expand...
Both are Eggman and Eggman Nega’s Machines actually, they built it together, and it’s using a power source they don’t normally have, The Power of the Stars is even called superior to the Chaos Emeralds in game


Wokistan said:
Proof? Especially with unleashed where you see him trying to physically struggle against it.
Click to expand...
The Phantom Ruby is all about ******* with ones mind and can turn off Emerald sources (like disconnecting The Master Emerald from Angel Island Passively in Mania), the Chaos Energy Cannon was made to drain Chaos Energy naturally so of course it’s weakening Super Sonic
 
None of the external source stuff actually contradicts the point though. He's being scaled to being above all eggman creations, eggman makes creations that are pretty clearly above them. Power source or not, that still results in a factually incorrect statement.
 
Wokistan said:
None of the external source stuff actually contradicts the point though. He's being scaled to being above all eggman creations, eggman makes creations that are pretty clearly above them. Power source or not, that still results in a factually incorrect statement.
Click to expand...
Those Power Sources aren’t Eggman’s Creations and are the sole reason why they can stand a fight
 
Metal Overlord is the combination of the power of every cast member of the game, the reason it even looks like how it does is because it Copied the data of Chaos

Which shouldn't be anywhere near super sonic, and doesn't contradict that eggman built metal sonic.

Both are Eggman and Eggman Nega’s Machines actually, they built it together, and it’s using a power source they don’t normally have, The Power of the Stars is even called superior to the Chaos Emeralds in game

Which, again, is still a thing they built.

The Phantom Ruby is all about ******* with ones mind and can turn off Emerald sources (like disconnecting The Master Emerald from Angel Island Passively in Mania), the Chaos Energy Cannon was made to drain Chaos Energy naturally so of course it’s weakening Super Sonic

Seems weird that the phantom ruby wouldn't flat out kill you, but that one's more fair. However, super sonic is stuck in the unleashed intro before eggman actually starts up the energy drain.



People seem to be missing that I never claimed that other power sources weren't a thing. They're still just under that umbrella of "things eggman built." I don't have to chop down all the trees and process all the wood and whatever to build a desk. As such, the statement should be removed.
 
I don’t know how to tell you this, Eggman didn’t build Sonic, or the Sol Emerald, or the Phantom Ruby, those are not under the umbrella
 
If I build something that I decide to run off batteries I bought at the store, that doesn't mean I suddenly didn't build that thing. You cannot show me claiming eggman built the sol emeralds or whatever, because I have not done so. I am well aware of this. It just doesn't change that the statement should be removed.

Unleashed intro also has no external thing so lol

Edit: Also, keep in mind that he would still have to be capable of creating parts that can handle that sort of energy output if he doesn't want to melt all his own shit. I'm sure that sonic devs aren't exactly going deep into the engineering side of eggman robots, but since this is vs debating it's a consideration to be made.
 
Why are you guys arguing about the least important part of this thread, which i even left between parenthesis for a reason? Sure, the examples i gave weren't the best (even if the Unleashed cutscene shows Sonic unable to escape before getting the succ and shows that his hax can affect Sonic), but it still doesn't detract from the point that Sonic is scaling to hax from a machine based on a massive assumption.

Also, you know, the fact that the feat isn't Low 2-C in the first place.
 
Wokistan said:
If I build something that I decide to run off batteries I bought at the store, that doesn't mean I suddenly didn't build that thing. You cannot show me claiming eggman built the sol emeralds or whatever, because I have not done so. I am well aware of this. It just doesn't change that the statement should be removed.
Click to expand...
If those Batteries are ones that Passively Combine universes then yes, it does go against the idea, the Machine isn’t the one putting in the work, it’s just using the Power of an extremely powerful item


Wokistan said:
Unleashed intro also has no external thing so lol
Click to expand...
Already explained this, it’s a weapon that specially targets the Chaos Emeralds and there power, it doesn’t scale to Super Sonic’s power, it’s just exploiting a weakness
 
Ultimately no one disagrees with the downgrade, just some of the flawed examples, so I don’t think there’s a reason to argue this.
 
Upon further inspection, yeah I agree with this. Especially later on in the comic I'm pretty sure they just overloaded the structure with extra info, which turned off Eggman's view of the place. And we don't even know if the Super Forms in particular would actually win against something powered by this structure, especially if they can just beat it with the other method mentioned earlier.


Personally though, Eggman SHOULD scale since a portion of 4D is still 4D, but the site doesn't accept that for a valid reason, it's only there to prevent inflation of tiers. So yeah, I think he should at least have Higher-Dimensional Manip.

Also, please stop derailing and just talk about the feats at hand. I don't think Super forms being superior to Eggman's machines in other games is even remotely relevant here.
 
Why are you guys arguing about the least important part of this thread, which i even left between parenthesis for a reason?

Cause i'm bored lol

If those Batteries are ones that Passively Combine universes then yes, it does go against the idea, the Machine isn’t the one putting in the work, it’s just using the Power of an extremely powerful item

I mean if I used circuits that were so much shittier then they'd just burn out. Wouldn't really work.

Already explained this, it’s a weapon that specially targets the Chaos Emeralds and there power

And I also already responded to this by noting that SS was stuck even before the drain began. I do not believe you replied to it, but I could have missed a post.
 
Also, if eggman does get a profile here, he should get Extraordinary Genius intelligence for creating a 4D structure.
 
None of the machines said in this thread even scale to full power Super Sonic except the Egg Wizard (and that's a maybe) and that was built by Eggman Nega and Eggamn, therefore this point is still incorrect no matter what

People can point out invalid arguments, in fact they should do that
 
He'd probably get extraordinary genius regardless of that tbh

None of the machines said in this thread even scale to full power Super Sonic except the Egg Wizard (and that's a maybe) and that was built by Eggman Nega and Eggamn, therefore this point is still incorrect no matter what

Notice how Eggman is still part of this collective, and how the second one is... another eggman

Regardless since nobody's really contesting the downgrade I'll just close this once that's applied.
 
the downgrade makes sense, so i agree with it


@Wokistan and @everyone else arguing about power scaiing

Please stop, it's not the main point of the thread and arguing it any further is derailing
 
Wokistan said:
I mean if I used circuits that were so much shittier then they'd just burn out. Wouldn't really work.
Click to expand...
There mystical Gems of Infinite Power, I don’t think circuit quality matters much when these things can empower tiny birds into gods, it also doesn’t mean your pure firepower by your own merits is that level


Wokistan said:
And I also already responded to this by noting that SS was stuck even before the drain began. I do not believe you replied to it, but I could have missed a post.
Click to expand...
He was stuck for only a few seconds, it be unknown if he’d be stuck for long, specially since he was taking it so casually, besides it wouldn’t be a stretch to assume the paralysis itself is targeting the Chaos Emeralds considering it was a machine specially designed to do such a thing
 
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Sure, do it all you like, just don't derail the thread.

also the draining machine still scales
 
Alright, that Super Sonic argument is crappy, it's correct but it's crappy

Im about to go to sleep soon, but im gonna propose a new tier for Supers and that's H3-A
High 3-A: High Universe level
Characters who demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale
Click to expand...
Exactly what can Super Forms do
IMG-20210627-033456.jpg

Supers won't stay at L2-C but instead be H3-A.

Also, side note, i noticed a big flaw in my CRT for this, but it's too late. It's been accepted so i can't cancel it either
 
Probably it would be downgraded to only High 3-A assuming the feat itself is 100% done via AP, which doesn't seem to be the case here.
 
Can you get high 3-A for creating minor 4D structures?

Not anymore, no.
 
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