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I win via speaking: Revengance: Randall Flagg vs Lelouch vi Britannia

4km SBA means Flagg doesn't even need to speak. He just reads Lelouch's mind from afar and then blasts him with a lightning bolt from the sky or something. Or throws up an illusion of his presence in one place as a distraction (I don't remember Lelouch ever seeing through any illusions in his home series) before putting him down in any number of ways.

But, if the two of them are within Lelouch's range, then Flagg is more likely to win anyway. Lelouch needs eye-contact in order to take control, and on top of that tends to have some problems when faced with people who can resist him. Flagg doesn't have that first issue, and will be more than capable of exploiting the second, since even if Lelouch makes eye-contact before Flagg eliminates him, his resistance to mind manip would allow him to at the very least screw his opponent over in the end.

Overall, the Dark Man is more likely to take this than not. Voting him.
 
It's the max range of both fighters, not 4KM. It's just 4KM is the max distance they can have.


I don't think Lelouch can reach that far, so it will be a battle of speaking.
 
Ah. See, this is why I always set a starting range in the threads I make. lol

But yeah, Flagg resists the one good power Lelouch has, and said power can be briefly fought off with sheer willpower anyway. Even if it's strong enough to get through his resistance (I don't remember the highest potency the Geass' mind control was ever shown to have), he should still be capable of getting out a few words. Or waving his hand and turning Lelouch into a pug.

Lelouch needing eye-contact also makes me believe that Flagg will hax him first, and Flagg's mind reading (which he abuses) would make him well aware of what the Geass' weaknesses are.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Or waving his hand and turning Lelouch into a pug.
Click to expand...
CUTE, SMALL, MUSHED UP FACED ANIMALS! MY ONLY WEEAAAAAAKKKKKNNNNEEEESSSSS!!!!!!!! AAAAAAGGGGUGGUGHUGUHGHGHGHGHH
 
P.S.: Shortening the title to this thread might help it attract more people. Just saying.
 
Dang, Flagg breaks the minds and wills of people just by smiling or with appearance alone. I'm inclined to lean toward Flagg. Even if speed is equalized, Flagg's dark presence will catch Lelouch off guard like it does everyone who sees him.
 
Y'know, this looks like a stomp match in Flagg's favor. The Crimson King drives people insane just with the threat of Black 13 looking at them, and yet Flagg can talk to him just fine. I doubt he'll get mind-controlled with Geass.
 
What.

When did Black Thirteen drive someone insane just by looking at them?

I haven't read DT 5 and 6 in in a while (those were the books it showed up in IIRC), but I don't remember that happening before.
 
Oh, wait. I think I know what you're referring to.

I might have to go find that page of Wolves of the Calla again, but I'm not sure if that was what was happening.
 
Found it:

______

Callahan strikes a stone floor. It's littered with the bones of small animals. The lid of the box closes and he feels a moment of sublime relief…but then it opens again, very slowly, disclosing the eye.

"No," Callahan whispers. "Please, no."

But he's not able to close the box—all his strength seems to have deserted him—and it will not close itself. Deep down in the black eye, a red speck forms, glows…grows. Callahan's horror swells, filling his throat, threatening to stop his heart with its chill. It's the King, he thinks. It's the Eye of the Crimson King as he looks down from his place in the Dark Tower. And he is seeing me.

"NO!" Callahan shrieks as he lies on the floor of a cave in the northern arroyo country of Calla Bryn Sturgis, a place he will eventually come to love. "NO! NO! DON'T LOOK AT ME! OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T LOOK AT ME!"

But the Eye does look, and Callahan cannot bear its insane regard. That is when he passes out. It will be three days before he opens his own eyes again, and when he does he'll be with the Manni.

______

That...actually does seem like it was driving him out of his mind.

Huh.
 
That's the one. I couldn't forget that because Flagg was handling the box like it was nothing. Lesser creatures than the Crimson King can induce madness, so I really don't doubt Black 13's capablities in that regard. Here, the Crimson King kills people just by speaking, and Flagg can talk to the most evil force in all Dark Tower Creation.

Flagg Black 13
The Crimson King can kill Flagg easily, of course, but it's still impressive because you have to be far removed from the norm just to withstand its presence.
 
That actually makes some sort of sense, seeing as there was a moment in The Stand where Flagg himself looked a guy in his eyes and drove him insane. (Although he was staring at the guy for about five minutes) And there're a few moments where he holds things that're supposed to "glammer" those who hold/use them. It's part of why he has mental resistance on his page now.

I also found another quote from earlier in the book. It's from one of the guys who found Callahan passed out near the cave:

______

"What did you do? How did thee save Jemmin?"

"Fell on my knees and closed the box," Henchick said. " 'Twas all I could think to do. If I'd hesitated even a single second I do believe I would ha' been lost, for the same black light were coming out of it. It made me feel weak and…and dim."

"I'll bet it did," Roland said grimly.

"But I moved fast, and when the lid of the box clicked down, the door swung shut. Jemmin banged his fists against it and screamed and begged to be let through. Then he fell down in a faint. I dragged him out of the cave. I dragged them both out. After a little while in the fresh air, both came to." Henchick raised his hands, then lowered them again, as if to say There you are.

______

So yeah. Pretty significant that he was carrying that, let alone able to use it to communicate with the Crimson King himself.

Still looking to see if Black Thirteen affected anyone else this way, though. I remember Callahan and Jake having it around them at one point later on.
 
Those are good quotes for Black 13's abilities, particularly the "black light". I believe Callahan and Jake were on the verge of killing each other but Callahan pulled through once again.

In my opinion, Flagg taking 5 minutes was just for the heck of it since he can instantly illusion up an entire universe coming into creation for Roland when he(Roland) attacked him(Flagg), and then mentioned it would have broke his father(Steven Deschain).

His mental abilities are beyond what I've seen from the Geass, including range when considering his dream and vision projections in The Stand. Maybe unfair?
 
I remember that vision too now. And it wasn't just a universe coming into creation, actually. After that, he took it further and made it so Roland was falling "outward to the limit of the universe" until he was outside of it, perceiving the entirety of the universe at once, as well as the entire blade of grass the universe was located inside, on a subatomic level:

______

He gathered himself. Shaken and alone, enwrapt in the darkness, terrified of an ultimate meaning rushing at him, he gathered himself and uttered the final answer on that subject:

"NEVER!"

"THEN LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

And there was light, crashing in on him like a hammer, a great and primordial light. Consciousness had no chance of survival in that great glare, but before it perished, the gunslinger saw something clearly, something he believed to be of cosmic importance. He clutched it with agonized effort and then went deep, seeking refuge in himself before that light should blind his eyes and blast his sanity.

He fled the light and the knowledge the light implied, and so came back to himself. Even so do the rest of us; even so the best of us.

______

"What did I see?" the gunslinger asked. "What did I see at the end? What was it?"

"What did it seem to be?"

The gunslinger was silent, thoughtful. He felt for his tobacco, but there was none. The man in black did not offer to refill his poke by either black magic or white. Later he might find more in his grow-bag, but later seemed very far away now.

"There was light," the gunslinger said finally. "Great white light. And then—" He broke off and stared at the man in black. He was leaning forward, and an alien emotion was stamped on his face, writ too large for lies or denial. It was awe or wonder. Perhaps they were the same.

"You don't know," he said, and began to smile. "O great sorcerer who brings the dead to life. You don't know. You're a fake!"

"I know," the man in black said. "But I don't know . . . what."

"White light," the gunslinger repeated. "And then—a blade of grass. One single blade of grass that filled everything. And I was tiny. Infinitesimal."

______

The quote we have on Ga's page about the size of the Tower and "a single atom in a blade of grass" comes immediately after that, because The Man In Black is explaining to Roland what the latter saw in that vision. (Roland doesn't know what an "atom" is, so that's why he didn't know how to describe what the hell he was looking at)

But yeah, hoo man. This is looking like a mismatch now. Lelouch's Geass is good and all, but Flagg's on a different level of the Tower in a completely different league from him.
 
Wow, that's even more impressive, and the explanation does fit in with the context. I never doubted ol' Randy for a second, he should win.
 
It's also a really solid willpower feat for Roland, since he managed to endure that vision without losing his mind, even if he came dangerously close. Hell, in the new film (which is a canon sequel to the books), the gunslinger is straight up unaffected by Flagg's mindhax, and the latter even states it twice.

But anyway, forget winning. This is pretty much a stomp at this point. lol
 
>Direct Eye contact

Blatantly false. Lelouch regularly mindhaxes entire groups of people with barely a glance, ranging from squadrons to halls of nobility

>Can be resisted via willpower

Blatantly false. Geass has almost never been resisted by willpower, and when it did, it was A. a different geass and took 8 years, or B. From his weakened Geass, which is far weaker than his normal Geass, left the victim a sputtering mess who talked to herself, and also overpowered said girl and sent her on a murderous rampage of genocide, and was likely only PIS to produce drama anyway. That's ignoring the fact that that mind has was accidental in the first place. In fact, willpower is more often shown to boost Geass effects anyway

>Flagg resists

No. The idea that Flagg resists is based on two faulty things. The first is that the arcane nature of the vision makes it stronger. The second is the idea that it was even mind hax. The thing is, the idea that since it was utterly arcane it was stronger is blatantly false. The nature of the mind hax has never been a factor, only the amount it affects. Otherwise. Cthulhu would have better mind hax than Luke. Even assuming it was stronger, it wasn't actually mind hax. This didn't exist at the time, but its actually madness manip, a power that is at best a subset of mind manip and as such does not scale to things like mind control, or at worst is a completely seperate skill. All this is ignoring the fact that Lelouch mindhaxed the collective mind of humanity and its afterlife as well, which is easily billions more than Flagg's resist.
 
The reason the vision was stronger isn't that it was "utterly arcane". It was because of the scale and complexity of said vision. Complexity of a vision can absolutely equate to the potency of a person's mental powers. Numbers aren't the only measurement available.

And yes, it was a form of mindhax. Flagg used his telepathy to send the vision directly into Roland's mind, and it wasn't "designed" to drive him mad. It was meant to show him the scale of what it was he was attempting to pursue (read: the Tower), and the possibility of it driving him mad would have been a side-effect at most, one which wouldn't have bothered Flagg any.

Regardless, I suppose I'll switch my vote to Lelouch as well, since I didn't know about the whole "collective mind of humanity" thing when I originally cast my vote.
 
I was referring more to the vision. Complexity also doesn't really make a difference, since the point is that the scale isnt necessarily measurable, since with Crhulhu, a higher d being is far more complex than even that vision. I guess it doesn't matter too much tho.
 
Actually when this whole "Lelouch haxed collective mibd of humanity yadayada" happened?
 
Actually, it was Episode 21.

Although that episode has reminded me that he doesn't have his Geass active all the time, and that he has to activate it manually and speak in order to control someone. And that the effects don't surface until a couple of moments after he's finished speaking. (The main guy in front of Lelouch when the latter mind-controls the court gets out most of a sentence before he falls to it.)

So, as a rule, unless Lelouch activates and says "Kill yourself" right from the getgo, Flagg's command ends him immediately due to his lack of resistance to just about anything. And if he tries something like "Obey me", it will be rendered moot due to him falling dead right after.

Also, Flagg hears people's thoughts and can read people's memories in moments. So it's entirely possible that he'll see what's coming and just throw up an illusion in order to trick Lelouch before he can activate, since the very same episode shows us that he can't tell illusions apart from reality. (He explicitly calls Marianne an illusion and believes her to be one) The moment he realizes something's wrong, Flagg will have ended him with any number of his abilities.

In fact, mind reading could easily just lead to him saying "Quiet" to prevent Lelouch from talking, the same way he did with Laurie when she started screaming after he killed Lon. No speaking equals no commands, which equals Flagg doing whatever he wants to Lelouch without any repercussions.

So yeah, either inconclusive due to mutual kill, or Flagg wins due to mind reading/a well-placed illusion, or just starting with a command that's guaranteed to kill or incap no matter what. I'm thinking the latter.
 
Hmm.. I'll go with inconclusive then, since technically his geass is activated with a thought when he doesn't have his contacts on, and he can just use "DIE" as a phrase, not just kill yourself, so mutual kill is more likely in my eyes. That could ls just be a PIS moment, but it really doesn't matter
 
But yeah, the manual actation isn't a thing. That gesture is for removing his contacts, which he doesn't have upon becoming emperor Lelouch, since he doesn't need to disguise it and isn't worried about aforementioned accidental mind hax
 
I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but Lelouch doesn't have to activate his geass. He has what's called a "runaway" geass that can't be deactivated, so that reasoning doesn't work. That activation was just him removing his contacts, which I assume he doesn't have by default.

There's also the fact that in the Alternate timeline Nunnally's Nightmare its implied that Eden Vital/God/The Gods connects all minds across all timelines, which in Code Grass is countless with one for every possibility, including the anime timeline. So yeah.
 
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