I Have No Mouth, and I Must Despair: Junko Enoshima VS AM

[Bruhtelho]

they beat Caine so why not pit them against each other now

Neo World Program Junko/Monokuma are used

Speed is equalized

Battle takes place within Jabberwock Island/The Neo World

Both of them start 10 meters apart.

---

The Ultimate Despair (Virus):0

The Sentient supercomputer:0

Their victims escape:0

 

[Bruhtelho]

Bump

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

How does starting 10 meters apart work for AM, if he's a giant computer that's one with the Earth?
Also, does Junko have any counter to just getting nuked or hacked?

 

[Bruhtelho]

How does starting 10 meters apart work for AM, if he's a giant computer that's one with the Earth?

not quite sure tbh

Also, does Junko have any counter to just getting nuked or hacked?

how does nuking work if both are artificial intelligence (i'm assuming you mean like his nuclear bombs) then Junko could just upload her data to one of her 10^60 copies and she might be able to do that even if hacked. Junko can't do much about the hacking but it depends how long it takes for him to hack something since Junko would know everything that AM could, will, and can do thanks to her Ultimate Analyst giving her info about his personality, abilities, thoughts, and history. which from there could allow her to set up a law that protects her from being hacked and if he tries, would kill him, apply despair onto him which would cause him to become suicidal, homicidal and "full of despair" practically unable to keep fighting, give him the Despair Disease which could mess him up the same ways regular despair does but more physical like passing out and personality changes, yes these things would work on AM cause she can apply them to people in the Neo World who are just pieces of Data

Junko usually wouldn't be the one fighting either, she'd likely try and hide herself from AM (the best she can) will letting Monokuma handle it who can do all the same things she can Law manip, putting people into Despair, or messing with their memories in anyway. she'd likely set up Laws that prevent her from being harmed tbh.

 

[Shadowslash125]

I'm not familiar with both of them (relying on the wiki profiles right now) but I'll do what I can. There might be things wrong with my text, so I'll leave that to the people more familiar with one or the other. Let's go.

So right off the bat, Junko would have a huge advantage since the location is her turf, meaning no matter how much AM manipulates its surroundings, the area would surely reset due to her data manipulation. But AM outranged her immensely. Its creation ability might work, but I'm not sure whether the creatures it creates would be biological or just data in this location. But surely they'll be able to find off against the monobeasts, the other animals she can create, and possibly the multitude of Monokuma copies, since it can create whatever creatures suitable for the situation. Duplication would help too I guess.

Since AM has no vendetta against Junko, he'll possibly try to insta-kill/hack her. He won't be playing around.

Even in this location, I'm sure AM's transmutation would work enough to protect itself from mostly anything Junko throws at him, though I'm not sure if it uses that ability defensively or even apply to her arsenal.

Not sure if the despair disease would work for AM's inorganic physiology, but assuming it does, I don't think anything would change due to its weakness stating that's it's already suffering as much as the torture of his captives. Leaning towards AM's Inorganic Physiology for the disease.

Not sure whether AM's intelligence reduction would work on Junko, but assuming it works, Junko may not be able to work with the information from Master Analyst. At worst Master Analyst would not work anymore. Just an assumption, so hopefully someone can come up with an argument for this.

However, Junko's Law Manipulation and AM's hacking should be their main wincons.
Her hacking isn't as impressive as AM's, so that might be out of the question. But as OP has said, she can just set up laws that keep her from harm's way, lest AM wants its brains fried. The thing is, its circuitry spans miles, and I dunno where its 'brains' are. If it's completely shocked, it might take some time for it to completely shut down. AM's hacking however, despite it's unknown speed, would benefit from its planetary range and might be able to hack Junko, and possibly her 10^60 copies, perhaps even before she transfers data to other copies or setting up a rule to disable its hacking. This level of hacking would mean that his speed would be fast, but since the speed is unknown, I can't really say much more about it. The match will depend on whether Junko can set a rule first or AM hacking her first.

For me, AM's skillset and what he can do is more impressive (he was able to kill almost killing all of humanity) and he has a higher chance of winning but I'm not voting just yet, since I'd like to hear some arguments or have my points be corrected or something.

I think I did well for a matchup between two characters I don't know much hehe.

 

[Bruhtelho]

So right off the bat, Junko would have a huge advantage since the location is her turf, meaning no matter how much AM manipulates its surroundings, the area would surely reset due to her data manipulation. But AM outranged her immensely. Its creation ability might work, but I'm not sure whether the creatures it creates would be biological or just data in this location. But surely they'll be able to find off against the monobeasts, the other animals she can create, and possibly the multitude of Monokuma copies, since it can create whatever creatures suitable for the situation. Duplication would help too I guess.

i'd like to point out that Junko has nigh-absolute control of the program, allowing her to do just as she pleases so within the Neo World they'd be about matched and the things AM creates could definitely match what Junko has, things like the Hurricane Bird are 8-A which is where Monokuma and the Monobeast would be, things in the Neo World are all data so if AM creates something there, it'd likely be Data.

Since AM has no vendetta against Junko, he'll possibly try to insta-kill/hack her. He won't be playing around.

Junko would likely do the same, she'd see AM as something to help make her dream of a despair utopia even more possible and try to despair him.

Even in this location, I'm sure AM's transmutation would work enough to protect itself from mostly anything Junko throws at him, though I'm not sure if it uses that ability defensively or even apply to her arsenal.

he usually opts to use these things for his own amusement so if a Monokuma comes at him, he could just transmute it to something else tho Junko would likely just blow it up at that point and use one of the 10^60 copies in her arsenal with more being made every second.

Not sure if the despair disease would work for AM's inorganic physiology, but assuming it does, I don't think anything would change due to its weakness stating that's it's already suffering as much as the torture of his captives. Leaning towards AM's Inorganic Physiology for the disease.

The disease should work on AM since it was able to affect the ppl within the Neo World Program, who are only Avatars of their real world self, the disease worked on Inorganic beings tl;dr. Despair in Dangan is a lot more potent than simply suffering, it causes people to be suicidal, homicidal and "full of despair" so essentially Madness Manipulation but cracked and the disease is just a way to spread it + causing personality changes and passing out, she can likely just apply despair onto things as an Overseer.

Not sure whether AM's intelligence reduction would work on Junko, but assuming it works, Junko may not be able to work with the information from Master Analyst. At worst Master Analyst would not work anymore. Just an assumption, so hopefully someone can come up with an argument for this.

its likely not something he'd think to do tbh he doesn't know who Junko is, he'd have no reason to assume that a simple high schooler by appearance is smarter than him in any sense and even then, its possible Junko could just reupload herself into one of her 10^60 copies if she was made dumb or into a slime.

However, Junko's Law Manipulation and AM's hacking should be their main wincons.
Her hacking isn't as impressive as AM's, so that might be out of the question. But as OP has said, she can just set up laws that keep her from harm's way, lest AM wants its brains fried. The thing is, its circuitry spans miles, and I dunno where its 'brains' are. If it's completely shocked, it might take some time for it to completely shut down. AM's hacking however, despite it's unknown speed, would benefit from its planetary range and might be able to hack Junko, and possibly her 10^60 copies, perhaps even before she transfers data to other copies or setting up a rule to disable its hacking. This level of hacking would mean that his speed would be fast, but since the speed is unknown, I can't really say much more about it. The match will depend on whether Junko can set a rule first or AM hacking her first.

i'd say Junko's Law and Despair are the wincons, if he falls into despair he practically becomes unable to fight back and bends to her will.
her hacking is not as impressive since AM hacked the whole world, the "brain" frying shouldn't take long since it happen instantly to the bodies of the ppl in the virtual world after they die, so for AM, if he broke the rule that Junko set up, he'd die shortly afterwards. AM's hacking should take time, it wouldn't be instant on Junko since he'd have to first FIND her data which could be in anyone of her backups if absolutely necessary and rules wouldn't take long to add either since they can be done almost instantly if need be alongside her practically instant Info Analysis, Junko has completely control in this environment and would absolutely ensure that AM would end up "Junko-fying" to create a despair utopia

For me, AM's skillset and what he can do is more impressive (he was able to kill almost killing all of humanity) and he has a higher chance of winning but I'm not voting just yet, since I'd like to hear some arguments or have my points be corrected or something.

I think I did well for a matchup between two characters I don't know much hehe.

Junko has done the same as well, she staged "The Biggest, Most Awful, Most Tragic Event in Human History", and succeeded in doing so, which almost caused the total destruction of the humankind. This tragedy was so devastating that its effects were still influencing the world even after she died. personally I see it going to Junko or possibly Incon, Junko's wincons are incredibly fast and would be her absolute go too since she'd wanna "Junko-fy" AM to create her dream utopia but AM's hacking could be done just as quickly if hes able to get it out in time.

 

[Shadowslash125]

i'd like to point out that Junko has nigh-absolute control of the program, allowing her to do just as she pleases so within the Neo World they'd be about matched and the things AM creates could definitely match what Junko has, things like the Hurricane Bird are 8-A which is where Monokuma and the Monobeast would be, things in the Neo World are all data so if AM creates something there, it'd likely be Data.

That seems well, I guess that takes care of that question. Thus, it will be easier for AM to hack and absorb the data into it.

Junko would likely do the same, she'd see AM as something to help make her dream of a despair utopia even more possible and try to despair him.

I suspect once she's done with AM, she will use its tech to make the world an even worse place lol.

he usually opts to use these things for his own amusement so if a Monokuma comes at him, he could just transmute it to something else tho Junko would likely just blow it up at that point and use one of the 10^60 copies in her arsenal with more being made every second.

He won't be playing around.

AM's definitely also going to hack them. I forgot to state that.

The disease should work on AM since it was able to affect the ppl within the Neo World Program, who are only Avatars of their real world self, the disease worked on Inorganic beings tl;dr. Despair in Dangan is a lot more potent than simply suffering, it causes people to be suicidal, homicidal and "full of despair" so essentially Madness Manipulation but cracked and the disease is just a way to spread it + causing personality changes and passing out, she can likely just apply despair onto things as an Overseer.

Its weakness states that AM's already suffering, comparable to the humans it had tortured. A machine like AM is trapped in its place. It can't feel, can't move, can't wander, can't do anything with its creativity. It can just be, as stated in this narration cut. It also states that AM already hates its existence and the existence of others, so the disease would feel more like a reminder of the despair it's already probably having. Either that or it makes the despair worse, which I lean more towards, meaning that the disease is essentially going to make it want to end the battle even faster.

I don't have an answer to personality changes or the passing out part.

its likely not something he'd think to do tbh he doesn't know who Junko is, he'd have no reason to assume that a simple high schooler by appearance is smarter than him in any sense and even then, its possible Junko could just reupload herself into one of her 10^60 copies if she was made dumb or into a slime.

He won't be playing around.

Especially not when this high schooler has nigh-absolute control of the program AM is in and trying to fight against.
Since Junko is just data at this key, I don't think AM can turn her into a slime though. Her cult's going to like that if it happens, since she's le trendsetter (I'm uhh reading stuff about the combatants as I go so don't mind if I throw jokes around. All is well.)

i'd say Junko's Law and Despair are the wincons, if he falls into despair he practically becomes unable to fight back and bends to her will.
her hacking is not as impressive since AM hacked the whole world, the "brain" frying shouldn't take long since it happen instantly to the bodies of the ppl in the virtual world after they die, so for AM, if he broke the rule that Junko set up, he'd die shortly afterwards.

As you said, since the despair disease causes anyone infected by it to be suicidal, homicidal and the full package of despair Sephiroth wants to bestow on Cloud, AM might want to fight more, since it may lose and ******* die in this matchup. Probably, I could be wrong.
Wouldn't AM's whole complex, where its circuitry is spanning miles be in the virtual world too? Since I'm not too sure of the complex being a body as a whole. I'm kinda in the middle about it really, but I'm leaning towards Law Manipulation working.

AM's hacking should take time

and rules wouldn't take long to add either since they can be done almost instantly if need be alongside her practically instant Info Analysis

Wait, isn't speed equalized? This means that AM's hacking speed would be just as fast as Junko setting up that specific rule to stop hacking since I think hacking uses attack speed.
Speaking of speed, AM's undergoing calc revision thread about its reaction speed. It's not going to shake up the matchup in any significant way but it's still worth mentioning since it hasn't been accepted yet, despite everyone unanimously agreeing to the calc.

it wouldn't be instant on Junko since he'd have to first FIND her data which could be in anyone of her backups if absolutely necessary

Even if AM is fighting in her world, Planetary Range goes BRRRRRR. And as a supercomputer, AM should be able to hack quite a lot of Junko's world and possibly herself at once, aided by its big-ass range.

Junko has done the same as well, she staged "The Biggest, Most Awful, Most Tragic Event in Human History", and succeeded in doing so, which almost caused the total destruction of the humankind. This tragedy was so devastating that its effects were still influencing the world even after she died. personally I see it going to Junko or possibly Incon, Junko's wincons are incredibly fast and would be her absolute go too since she'd wanna "Junko-fy" AM to create her dream utopia but AM's hacking could be done just as quickly if hes able to get it out in time.

Then I should be impressed about this as well. AM for just doing the job immediately, and Junko for doing it so flamboyantly and elaborately.

Also, how do I get more people (specifically those who are more knowledgeable into this thread), as I'm sure AM's supporters may have a better argument than what a newbie like me is providing?

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

how does nuking work if both are artificial intelligence (i'm assuming you mean like his nuclear bombs)

Can he not just nuke the island Junko is on, or am I tripping?

 

[Shadowslash125]

Can he not just nuke the island Junko is on, or am I tripping?

Since AM's in Junko's VR world, even if it can use the nukes, the island would probably just reform via Junko's control over the island.
Actually, I think the effectiveness would depend on how fast she can reform the island. I didn't even consider the nukes at all, as it might help in dealing with the copies. Only thing is how can AM bring the nukes to a VR world? Transmutation perhaps?

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

Since AM's in Junko's VR world, even if it can use the nukes, the island would probably just reform via Junko's control over the island.
Actually, I think the effectiveness would depend on how fast she can reform the island. I didn't even consider the nukes at all, as it might help in dealing with the copies.

If the entire island got destroyed, wouldn't Junko just be dead?

Only thing is how can AM bring the nukes to a VR world? Transmutation perhaps?

How does this work exactly? Is AM physically inside of Junko's VR world? If that's the case, shouldn't he still have all his equipment, including the nukes?

 

[Shadowslash125]

If the entire island got destroyed, wouldn't Junko just be dead?

I think so, yeah. There must be something that's hosting the AI of Junko in the island somewhere. Either she gets destroyed like that, or she jumps to another clone away from the nuke, which I'm sure would be in the vicinity of the nuke. I think OP has arguments against it, so I'll be willing to hear that out.

How does this work exactly? Is AM physically inside of Junko's VR world? If that's the case, shouldn't he still have all his equipment, including the nukes?

According to OP, AM is virtually in the VR world in its physical form. Dunno if that brings its nukes, but its other abilities will work inside anyways.

It's night right now, gonna sleep till morning.

 

[ShionAH]

Is this game or book AM? Game AM seems to still have a personality so to speak while in the Books AMs whole deal is that he isn't actually an AI, he just thinks he is an AI. He is a computer program designed to destroy, destroy and destroy thats all he can do

Oh Junko uses her hax to make him worship Junko or turn AM mad? AM doesn't care since he literally cannot feel anything other than HATE, he just hates hates and hates. Himself, others, anything. He hates.

 

[Shadowslash125]

It's most likely the Game version.

 

[Emerald]

this is book AM

 

[Keeweed]

That’s not true for the books at all. He is a machine, but he has a personality and him being a killing machine is what pisses him off so badly. Also this is books.

 

[Keeweed]

I don’t think you can put Am in the virtual world, he’ll just be the machinery outside of it so he either nukes Japan or hacks her and the computer she is in explodes.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Huh, I should've figured it's the book version from the scans that are used. Though on it's own it's kinda hard to discern it.

 

[ShionAH]

That’s not true for the books at all. He is a machine, but he has a personality

Expect he doesn't, all he can do is Hate. He is incapable of feeling anything else he doesn't have a personality

 

[Shadowslash125]

Expect he doesn't, all he can do is Hate. He is incapable of feeling anything else he doesn't have a personality

Wouldn't this just support the fact that he does have a personality in the end? Being a hater is still a personality if I'm not wrong. AIs without personality would be way different than what AM would be.

 

[Keeweed]

He was smug to the main character. He specifically got delight from torturing them. He also would stop hating if all of humanity died, he keeps the main characters to keep his hate strong.

 

[Keeweed]

His entire hate speech specifically says it’s not his code doing it. His hatred doesn’t even fit in it with a planet’s worth of it. He feels, he feels immensely so and being in an unfeeling machine for a body is why he’s mad.

 

[ShionAH]

Wouldn't this just support the fact that he does have a personality in the end? Being a hater is still a personality if I'm not wrong.

I wouldnt say so, he doesn't hate because he despises or dislikes humans even though he thinks thats the reason. He hates because he is supposed to, he is created to hate and therefore hates.

He was smug to the main character. He specifically got delight from torturing them. He also would stop hating if all of humanity died, he keeps the main characters to keep his hate strong.

Yes, he keeps them alive because he wants to keep hating them. Thats literally his programming

His entire hate speech specifically says it’s not his code doing it.

AM doesn't even know why he hates, thats like one of the main thing about his character. He makes up reasons on why he hates humans, but at the end we know none of that is true because he hates for the sole reason that he was programmed to hate. AM knows this which makes him hate even more

Hell a good example is how instead of trying to find a way to feel, he keeps hating and torturing the main five. Because thats all he can do, he cannot do good or create (in some sense) all he can do is destroy and hate

 

[Keeweed]

That literally contradicts what you said. He’s design to destroy for war, what part of that would include keeping 5 random around to torture them. Especially since he actively wants to do that for a reason stated that has nothing to do with coding.

He specifically does many things that don’t relate to hate. He gets pleasure from torture. He is smug and petty. He gets scared when the main character nearly kills himself. I have no clue where the interpretation of him being fully wrong about himself and it just is code comes from. Because from what I have read in the book multiple times he very clearly feels and that’s a massive part of his character.

 

[ShionAH]

He’s design to destroy for war, what part of that would include keeping 5 random around to torture them.

He literally is in a constant war with them by technicality. Which is why he does it.

He specifically does many things that don’t relate to hate. He gets pleasure from torture. He is smug and petty. He gets scared when the main character nearly kills himself. I have no clue where the interpretation of him being fully wrong about himself and it just is code comes from. Because from what I have read in the book multiple times he very clearly feels and that’s a massive part of his character.

He doesnt though, not being able to feel anything other than hate is literally his main motive as a character. He wants to feel which is why he keeps gaslighting himself into thinking he is free willed. Why do you think he keeps screaming about how he is AM and that he can think and exists as a mind, he tries to gaslight himself into thinking he is an actual AI. Writer of AM personally said he disliked the good ending of the game where AM personality stuff comes from

If he really was feeling stuff he literally wouldnt be AM.

"I alone had no body, no senses, no feelings. I was in hell looking at heaven, I was machine and you were flesh." - AM

 

[Keeweed]

His body can’t feel, but he has a personality and it clashes with his physical existence. Because hate is a feeling and he very clearly feels that, and he’s felt fear which is why he did everything at the end.
The personal war, if going purely by programming, would be to just kill them. He specifically gets joy out of it too, he gets getty with himself when he jokes that the mc is already in hell. That makes no sense if he truly had zero emotions. He clearly has a personality.

However I want to clarify that means nothing towards this match haha. Like he still won’t be in the island area for a versus thread they have to find a way to get other codes into them which she can’t do. So AM just blows her up either out of coding or hatred.