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Source of that?
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I Have No Circus and I Must Amazing Digital [TADC's Episode 2 CRT Thread]
- Thread starter Flowerguy2
- Start date
The_Pink_God
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Jax easily can strangle and overpower her without even trying
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You mean this? Jax just grabbed her by the neck and threw her. It was a quick move that surprised Pomni, she didn't have time to react properly, not to mention we didn't see her try to defend herself.
IDK3465
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I could argue more with Jax being stronger than Pomni, but even if we had no reason to assume Jax is stronger, we'd still have no reason to assume Pomni's significantly stronger, either. At no point do we see Pomni overpower anyone or do anything that the rest of the cast couldn't; there's no reason to assume she's several tiers of LS above everyone else when she and the rest of the cast are depicted as total equals. If Jax isn't stronger than Pomni, and Pomni's not stronger than Jax, then the only explanation is they're equal in strength.
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Actually, yes there is a reason, Pomni demonstrated a notable feat, the others did not. It's that simple
You just made that up.
Also, your saying that they are totally equal is debatable, given that Zooble easily overpowered Jax and incapacitated him for a while, proving that she is stronger than him.
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An upfront take using the interpretation that all the characters should scale to Pomni's strength would be: "I'm media attentive enough to realize that, based on author intent and how the characters are written in the series so far, the main cast will end up having evidence of scaling to each other, and instead of waiting for that evidence to show itself, I want to implement the scaling immediately by using "should be comparable to" logic." Rather than purely taking into consideration feats and statements, a person with this belief had formed it based on an educated guess and/or a very plausible prediction.
Fortunately, whether the aforementioned take or the opposite one is more reliable isn't very important here. There is already evidence that all the human minded characters are roughly comparable to each other in strength.
Caine makes NPCs with the intention of giving any of the human minded characters a challenge, without there being an arbitrary unbalanced difficulty depending on which character is physically interacting with the NPCs. For example, Caine specifically made the Gloinks for a challenge involving gathering them to stop them from causing mischief, in which any of the human minded characters were capable of participating in. Even though not all characters were shown catching Gloinks and being hit by them on-screen, the known purpose of Gloinks is already enough to deduce that the human minded characters would have been capable of gathering Gloinks to stop them from causing mischief. It's not as though Caine isn't powerful enough to decide how the Gloinks work relative to all the human minded characters. Additionally, Gloinks can bonk Jax, who has been at least rough with all the main human minded characters at this point.
Caine is implied to have made many NPCs in the past, based on various little details, such as Jax asking "is this another one of your NPCs" upon Pomni's first appearance, or Caine being a contributor to the advancement of AI technology which he can apply to NPCs. Despite this, there has yet to be a single revealed occurrence where a human minded character was worried about an NPC being leagues above them in strength, unless the NPC was stronger than all of them, like how everyone who encountered The Fudge wanted to prevent themselves from being eaten. The only reason arbitrary strength imbalance would be a concern if it were true would be because they lack feats, which obviously isn't a good in-setting reason. Another realistically conceivable reason could be Caine making a design oversight, but he's always working on things and using better technology, so he probably fixed a design oversight like that by now if there ever was one.
Fortunately, whether the aforementioned take or the opposite one is more reliable isn't very important here. There is already evidence that all the human minded characters are roughly comparable to each other in strength.
Caine makes NPCs with the intention of giving any of the human minded characters a challenge, without there being an arbitrary unbalanced difficulty depending on which character is physically interacting with the NPCs. For example, Caine specifically made the Gloinks for a challenge involving gathering them to stop them from causing mischief, in which any of the human minded characters were capable of participating in. Even though not all characters were shown catching Gloinks and being hit by them on-screen, the known purpose of Gloinks is already enough to deduce that the human minded characters would have been capable of gathering Gloinks to stop them from causing mischief. It's not as though Caine isn't powerful enough to decide how the Gloinks work relative to all the human minded characters. Additionally, Gloinks can bonk Jax, who has been at least rough with all the main human minded characters at this point.
Caine is implied to have made many NPCs in the past, based on various little details, such as Jax asking "is this another one of your NPCs" upon Pomni's first appearance, or Caine being a contributor to the advancement of AI technology which he can apply to NPCs. Despite this, there has yet to be a single revealed occurrence where a human minded character was worried about an NPC being leagues above them in strength, unless the NPC was stronger than all of them, like how everyone who encountered The Fudge wanted to prevent themselves from being eaten. The only reason arbitrary strength imbalance would be a concern if it were true would be because they lack feats, which obviously isn't a good in-setting reason. Another realistically conceivable reason could be Caine making a design oversight, but he's always working on things and using better technology, so he probably fixed a design oversight like that by now if there ever was one.
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That all seems like a good theory to me, because that's all it is, a theory based on "I guess it would make sense for this to happen like this." Everything lacks sources and is simply an interpretation of how you think Caine thinks (the same guy who sent the entire cast against Queen Gloink, who is evidently far superior to the entire cast).
Caine could have simply created the Gloinks and given them enough strength to be comparable to the weaker members of the group, that doesn't mean they are all comparable.
Do you want to base your argument on something that you don't know if it happened or not? Not to mention, the same thing I said above about the Gloinks can apply. And the fact that there are NPCs stronger than the cast like The Fudge or Queen Gloink means, well, that Caine does create NPCs that are stronger than the cast :v. Which in itself invalidates the "everyone is comparable to each other because Caine creates NPCs that everyone is capable of defeating" argument.
My position is simple, Pomni is the only one who demonstrated a Class 25 feat, no one has physically overpowered her or anything like that, so no one scales from that.
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We could assume it's an outlier. A value far outside the expected range given the other known values.
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Yes
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- Thread starter
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Bumper
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Scaling and potrayal > Feats, always.
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Well. You would have to prove that the other characters are as strong as Pomni or stronger. What stops Pomni from simply being an abnormally strong character among the other cast members?
The_Pink_God
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I don't think I said this already but I do agree with everything here
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The fact that Pomni is significantly shorter than everyone else, is generally one of the more timid and panicky of the cast, and that there isn’t much that says she’s leagues above everyone else. I know this sounds like I’m going off on a limb here, but while there isn’t much saying everybody scales to Pomni, there is just as much saying everybody doesn’t scale to Pomni.
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I don't think size matters. Zooble's arms are thinner than Jax's and yet she is stronger than him, Caine is more powerful than all the characters despite being significantly smaller than most, Kaufmo is many times larger than the cast, and Ragatha is not much weaker than him, etc.
I would love to know the reason why Pomni's personality influences how strong she is.
We really have no reason to assume that all characters should scale to Class 25 because of Pomni's feat. At least for now.
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I mean generally in fiction, the more panicky characters are weaker than most of the others unless in very specific situationsI would love to know the reason why Pomni's personality influences how strong she is.
My point is that there isn’t much saying Pomni is substantially more powerful than everyone else, and there isn’t much saying the inverse is true either
I can settle for a “possibly/likely higher”, but Pomni scaling significantly above everybody else straight up is kind of hard to believe
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What I wrote about Caine's intentions wasn't part of what you quoted here. By "author intent," I meant in real life, not in-setting. Anyway, the Gloink Queen has no strength feats aside from converting inanimate objects into Gloinks, and she only expressed crazy overconfident plans to turn all of existence into Gloinks, so it's headcanon that she's truly "far superior" to the entire main cast, unless it is confirmed elsewhere. If it's inferred based on her being a boss enemy, then that doesn't necessarily make her "far superior" more so than just "stronger."
This is unlikely to be the case, as a Gloink bonked Jax, who has been at least rough with every human minded character, therefore Jax isn't a weaker one of the characters and neither are the Gloinks. Based on this, it's reasonable to infer that all the human minded characters are approximately as strong as each other, when the Gloinks were designed to be stopped from physically causing disturbances by any of the human minded characters.
My point is specifically about the consistency of relativity between the human minded characters, not specifically who they scale above. Me pointing out how The Fudge is stronger than all of them isn't meant to be evidence that they can defeat NPCs, it's meant to demonstrate that they're all weaker than The Fudge, so they're all below that league of power, possibly together in that regard. It might lead us to having a better idea of how the human minded characters are meant to compare to each other. It's just one piece of evidence, not an immediately decisive factor, so don't take it too seriously, but I thought it was worth mentioning nonetheless.
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Because it's just ridiculous, this is one of the reasons why this site is so hated, so don't add another one.
Pomni in no way is potrayed as such, and there's no evidence for all the other characters being far weaker than her, and NO WAY Gooseworks is remotely thinking of Pomni as this super strong muscleman.
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Bro spitting straight fax
Anyways, yeah, there's just no evidence that being made of ribbons or having detachable body parts would make one less physically strong; at most, it might make them less durable. I think the digital gang should be comparable to Pomni; not weaker, not stronger, just comparable.
It's really a shame that this site hates inferred evidence so much.
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Bump
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Oh I'm sorry bro T_T
The_Pink_God
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How's the vote tally btw?
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13 Votes in total, no Admin/Content Mod/Burecat yet
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Even if in some fictional works that happens, it would have to be shown that it happens in the same way in this verse as well.
Queen Gloink survived an aggressive beating from Kaufmo, iirc.
I mean, Jax seemed to be more annoyed than hurt by that hit. I have other problems with that too. Jax could be one of the weakest characters. To begin with, we already know that he is weaker than Zooble, who casually overpowered him with only one arm.
I'm pretty sure that appealing to ridicule is a type of fallacy. Anyway, there's no evidence that everyone is equally strong, you're basing all that reasoning on basically nothing. Because there is nothing, 0 evidence, none, that everyone is equally strong as Pomni. Since Pomni is the only one who demonstrated a notable feat, it is up to you to prove that the others are comparable.
I didn't know you could read minds :v.
Since no argument convinces me, I will keep my vote as it is.
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That's durability, not strength.
Even in the case that Jax was more annoyed than hurt, that still means he got hurt, just to a lesser extent than he got annoyed. This is intuitive, since people tend to get annoyed by getting hurt by a bonk like that.
If Zooble grabbing and overpowering Jax while he wasn't ready to be attacked is evidence that Zooble is stronger than Jax, then why isn't Jax grabbing Pomni by the neck and throwing her evidence that Jax is stronger than Pomni? You mentioned before that the latter was a swift surprise attack, but that seems like a double standard to me. For a moment, Pomni even touched Jax's arm, yet that did nothing to stop Jax from throwing her.
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Bump
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He wasn't hurt significantly enough to assume that the Gloink is just as strong as him. There are many 10-C things that are capable of annoying or even slightly hurting a human when it hits them in the face, it would be like saying this cat is 10-B.
They are two totally different scenes. Jax visibly suffers and is incapacitated for a while (The feat also seems casual, Zooble didn't seem to be trying very hard). In the truck scene everything happens (literally) in a second, Jax grabs Pomni by the neck (unlike the Jax and Zooble scene, Pomni can talk normally even though Jax is grabbing her by the neck, which means that Jax was just grabbing her, not strangling her) and throws her over the truck, Pomni doesn't look noticeably in pain and two seconds later she's like nothing happened to her (Leaving aside the fact that she was stretched by the trucks).
Since Pomni grabs Jax's arm and he still throws her, I guess I could be okay with using this to make Jax Class 25 under the argument of "(He grabbed Pomni and threw her, even though Pomni grabbed him from the arm)". But I still don't think that scene proves that Pomni's AP = Jax's AP, since he didn't hurt her at all.
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Unlike cats, the Gloinks can swiftly steal things like tables, which is impressive strength similar to Jax breaking a sign with one attack. In that context, a Gloink bonking Jax implies that they have comparable strength.
I'm fine with considering Zooble as having even better lifting strength than Jax. What I'm really trying to get at in the end is just that the differences between the characters just depends on how many arms they're using, rather than them being in completely different tiers. There are indeed some differences between the two scenes, but Jax not having held Pomni's neck for as long as Zooble held Jax's neck meant that Pomni didn't stop breathing for long enough to become incapacitated, not that Jax couldn't have done that if he wanted to, given how Pomni using two hands to try stopping Jax from throwing her with one hand didn't work, and how easy it was for Jax to throw Pomni out of the truck against her will. With what we established about Jax's lifting strength relative to Pomni's, Jax could easily strangle Pomni if he were to use two arms, so I think he might be able to do it with one hand if he held Pomni for longer.
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While swiftly stealing a table is certainly more impressive than what cats can do, the Lifting Strength needed to carry a table and the Striking Strength needed to break a sign are two different amounts in two different categories, so we can't really say that implies "comparable strength". For the record, I'd support Jax being comparable to Pomni in LS simply because the two have similar physiologies, as opposed to the likes of Zooble or Gangle.
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I'm calling staff to get this approved.
@Planck69 @Damage3245 Input on these simple additions would be appreciated.
@Planck69 @Damage3245 Input on these simple additions would be appreciated.
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Absolutely not, carrying a table is not even remotely comparable to breaking a sign in half. I'm also not saying that Gloinks are 10-C like a cat, I'm saying that hurting someone so slightly doesn't mean being as strong as them and I gave the example of a 10-C cat hurting a 10-B person.
The fact that Pomni can speak normally when Jax grabs her by the neck indicates that he wasn't strangling her, that wasn't his goal either, he simply wanted to throw her towards the other truck. Zooble did strangle Jax, who was unable to utter a word and was incapacitated a few seconds later.
Speculation.
Like I said, I now agree that Jax could escalate to Class 25. But the AP is a different matter, even though Jax clearly wasn't trying to strangle and hurt Pomni, that doesn't mean he could have if he wanted to.
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Everything looks good but I wouldn't add Resurrection for Caine yet until we see it in action. It could just be as simple as making another copy of that NPC and that bringing that specific NPC back to life.
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My point is that the evidence makes the Gloinks stronger than a real cat, so the Gloinks aren't meant to be weak or something like that. Instead of the Gloinks being weak and harmlessly bonking a character that has feats, the context turns out to make the scenario a "character that has feats influences character that has feats" situation. Obviously it takes more strength to crack a sign in half, but my observation isn't trying to demonstrate that the feats are exactly the same.
Comparison: If a character has a Planet level feat and they shove a character that has a Large Planet level feat, and they're both characters that have super strength, then it's reasonable to infer that the characters are simply meant to scale to each other, even though the former would get one-shot by the latter if we were to judge them solely based on their feats, as if their roles in their story don't matter.
How is it speculation to infer that Jax would be strong enough to strangle Pomni if he were to try to, when we know that Pomni using two arms couldn't even defend herself against one of Jax's arms? This is just a matter of counting arms and comparing lifting strengths, which we've already reached an agreement on. We reached the agreement that Zooble, Jax and Pomni all have Class 25 lifting strength, and within that, the scaling chain is Pomni < Jax < Zooble, therefore Pomni isn't abnormally stronger than all the other human minded characters. Isn't that a good conclusion?
What I'm writing about in the other paragraph with a Gloink bonking Jax is where the matter of attack potency is, not this situation with the arms and grabbing. Preventing air from going through someone's neck is a lifting strength feat.
IDK3465
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I figure now would be a good time to say this, characters don’t need to necessarily beat the crap out of each other in order to scale. (Ex. Characters that are frequently rivals/enemies with each other, characters displaying similar levels and feats of strength, working together/allies with one another, depicted as equals in overall power within the context of the story, etc) If we used TheShape03’s logic of only scaling based on if a character fought another directly, then 90% of verses would have their scaling reworked, especially the ones with minimal fighting to begin with.
Even if we didn’t have the evidence that Jax can overpower Pomni, there’d still be a lot of reasons for them to be comparable through how they are depicted and their roles within the story. They are both displaying 9-C level feats, are in the same boat as and work with the other humans, and none of their feats are treated as stronger to any other main characters, including the lollipop feat that started the whole argument. Even though there’s not a lot of evidence to support that they are perfectly equal, there’s far less evidence that they aren’t. Generally, it’s better to assume that characters scale to each other rather than locking all other characters from scaling due to one preforming a single slightly stronger feat.
God, I’m so tired wtf…
Even if we didn’t have the evidence that Jax can overpower Pomni, there’d still be a lot of reasons for them to be comparable through how they are depicted and their roles within the story. They are both displaying 9-C level feats, are in the same boat as and work with the other humans, and none of their feats are treated as stronger to any other main characters, including the lollipop feat that started the whole argument. Even though there’s not a lot of evidence to support that they are perfectly equal, there’s far less evidence that they aren’t. Generally, it’s better to assume that characters scale to each other rather than locking all other characters from scaling due to one preforming a single slightly stronger feat.
God, I’m so tired wtf…
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What part of "the cat is an example" did you not understand? I never said that Gloinks were weak like cats or anything like that, I said that just because they hit Jax like that doesn't mean they should scale to Jax's durability, because it was an extremely minor "damage" and he seemed more annoyed than hurt. If I have to repeat this one more time my head will explode.
No, that's not how it works, you don't need to have strength comparable to someone just to push them and both having superhuman strength won't matter either, because there are different degrees of "super strength" and one can be inferior to another despite having superhuman strength.
We agree on the Class 25 thing. What I disagree with is assuming that Jax should have the same AP/SS as Pomni because of that feat, like you said, it's an LS feat and the reason why That Pomni couldn't free herself was because of Jax's LS.
Bad example, those characters would have a reason to scale each other, since they compete with each other. But this does not happen in Digital Circus.
How can one character scale another character just because they work together? Does this mean that I am as strong as the people I work with?
Bad example, this is a good reason for 2 characters to scale each other. But this does not happen in Digital Circus.
Those 90% that you mention have reasons to scale characters with each other, their reasoning is not "they share the same space and work together, they are clearly comparable, without a doubt." I will go to work together with Mike Tyson, so I can punch with more than 1600 Joules.
They may still be 9-C, but one may be weaker than the other.
I've made enough fun of this nonsensical reasoning, I don't think it's worth mentioning.
Headcanon, how do you know that the author didn't think that one show of force could be less or greater than others? do you read minds? Teach me, I also want to read minds.
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I understand that you don't mean it literally, but I felt like sticking with the analogy you used because I thought it could've helped reach an understanding. I can approach this differently if you want me to... Where do you think the Gloinks scale, then?
By the way, in my previous message, I might have accidentally implied that stealing a table is a feat of super strength in the wrong way. I should clarify that I don't mean to claim that it's inherently so, but with the Gloinks being limbless and being able to effortlessly attach heavy objects to themselves, it's impressive in this case.
You're right about the first part; I should have wrote "slightly harmed" instead of "shoved." With that correction... If two super strengthed characters scale to each other despite them individually having feats with a tier gap, then a judgement usually should be made about which tier is more consistent, since characters scaling to each other usually means they're in the same tier. If we were explore that, my comparison would be derailing the topic, so I suppose we just dismiss my comparison example.
That means we share the same idea about this part.
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I totally agree with everything here! Also I swear there was a building level digital circus calc on a different vs wiki but I can't find it and it's annoying me"I'm not a child, you don't have to hype me up..."
So basically: New TADC's Episode Just Dropped, New Abilities, New CRTs, and Vice Versa
The Cycle of VSBW's Life!
The Main Cast/The Circus Gang
Upgrades/Downgrades
Agree (13 Votes in Total, 1 Staff-related Vote): @Psychomaster35, @Imaginym (Agreed with everything else), @TheShape03 (Same as Imaginym), @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera (Agreed with everything else minus Lollipop's feat), @IDK3465 (Agreed with everything else minus scaling characters to Pomni's Toon Force/Elasticity), @Barry_Ken, @James_Plays_4_Games, @StretchSebe, @LightSoul8, @Ednaxel2, @DarlingAurora, @Javenplayz253, @The_Pink_God, @Damage3245
Neutral:
Disagree: @Imaginym (Disagreed with Scaling other characters to Class 25's LS and Pomni's Toon Force/Elasticity), @TheShape03 (Same as Imaginym expect for Caine's scaling to Class 25), @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera (Disagreed with Pomni's Lolipop stick feat), @IDK3465 (Disagreed with the cast getting/scaling to Pomni's Toon Force/Elasticity minus Jax)
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I believe you are talking about this
However, like I said, nobody scales to this since nobody damages the truck at any point, especially since Pomni and Gummigoo were being protected from the explosion by the truck's exterior.
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Oh beans. Atleast I know!
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I'll come some staff again.
@Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @Dereck03 Input would be appreciated on this simple addition CRT.
@Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @Dereck03 Input would be appreciated on this simple addition CRT.
