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I Can Dodge Raindrops if I Try (Classifying Re Zero's Impossible Skill Feats)

Celestial_Pegasus

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Transcendents in Re Zero are stated many times to be able to dodge raindrops:


Rainstorms produce a ton of raindrops to the point just a cubic meter can have thousands of droplets within it, it's clearly impossible to dodge every single raindrop in a rainstorm even if you're super fast, there isn't enough space for you to move without bumping into raindrops. In this thread @SeijiSetto calculated at that any given moment there are 6 raindrops occupying the volume where Cecilus, Reinhard etc is, not to mention they are actively moving around and so they would be running into more raindrops, in short this is an impossible feat.

In addition to these feats we also have multiple feats of people below the level of transcendents having such precision they can incapacitate a part of your body ie leg, avoiding all your bones, nerves, blood vessels and muscles


Now again how is it possible to cut someone in such a way you can see their musculature, without touching their blood vessels or nerves? These are again impossible feats, Wilhem's feat however I suppose could be accomplished if you're just really skilled.

Adding on to this even at the lower levels of "skill" there are a few feats which come to mind which should be impossible:
  • Even under the effects of Shamak, which affects the senses(Volume 11, Chapter 2), Elsa was still able to not only accurately target her enemies vitals (Volume 11, Chapter 2), but also avoided an attack which destroyed the entire room she was in (Volume 11, Chapter 2). I suppose with this feat you could maybe argue Elsa just moved fast enough to escape the room? But the fact that she threw her knives at Frederica past the smoke (which is Shamac which is what is affecting her senses), implies she was still very much in the room, this maybe arguable.
  • 12 year old Ram (forgot her exact age at this point) has supernatural body movements (The Hidden Village Oni Sisters, Chapter 5) which lets her avoid getting fatal wounds, from countless explosion inside the corridor of a building. In this feat Ram figured out the trick to the explosions by sensing the disturbance in the mana right before the explosions. Faist however unleashed countless explosions in this corridor, so even though Ram knew when they were coming she couldn't avoid them, she couldn't avoid them yet somehow despite the scale of the explosions and the amount of them, and the fact this happened inside a corridor so there wasn't much space to dodge, Ram avoided fatal injuries with her supernatural body movements.

I think the Ram and Elsa feats are on the borderline if not over the borderline of being impossible.

So how do we explain the characters consistently doing these impossible stuff? I already started to explain when I mentioned Cecilus saying you can't do something when you think you can't do it, meaning as long as you believe something is possible, it is.

Cecilus was able to run on magma (Arc 8, Chapter 43), to which Al says this is impossible, and Cecilus again says as long as a person thinks something is impossible, they will never be able to do it. Cecilus was able to use a single grain of gravel as a foothold, even fragments of glass and ash. He is able to do this because he can disregard logical and general notions (Arc 8, Chapter 57). In another instance, Cecilus ignored the nature principles which would normally make a human fall to the ground when they have nothing to hold on to (Arc 7, Chapter 106).

In conclusion all these impossible feats are the characters explicitly ignoring logic, as such I suggest characters such as Theresia, Reinhard, Cecilus etc all get law manipulation. For them I think it's pretty blatant they're doing impossible stuff. The question is whether or not law manipulation should also apply to characters like Elsa and Ram.
 
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Law manipulation and subjective reality would be more accurate considering Cecilus's statement.

Also Olbart has that shinobi technique of dodging an undodgable attack too

Reids conceptual cutting would also be a part of this, he cut down that black hole saying it was just air to him. He also did a weird movement where he was using a single leg to drag Roy across the walls while running with a single leg

I will add the scans later as I am a bit busy rn but there should be even more
 
Law manipulation and subjective reality would be more accurate considering Cecilus's statement.

Also Olbart has that shinobi technique of dodging an undodgable attack too

Reids conceptual cutting would also be a part of this, he cut down that black hole saying it was just air to him. He also did a weird movement where he was using a single leg to drag Roy across the walls while running with a single leg

I will add the scans later as I am a bit busy rn but there should be even more
I agree with this take.
 
Law manipulation and subjective reality would be more accurate considering Cecilus's statement.
Disagree with Subjective Reality. IIRC that's reserved for stuff that brings fiction into reality or vice versa. All that's being done here is people defying the principle of logic by believing they can. Seems like thought based law-manip imo.
 
In addition to these feats we also have multiple feats of people below the level of transcendents having such precision they can incapacitate a part of your body ie leg, avoiding all your bones, nerves, blood vessels and muscles
I'm not sure I'd be quick to classify the superhuman precision feats as logically impossible, unless it's a matter of a blade being too thick/too large for something so precise. In that same chapter of Wilhelm voiding the floor's power we got him evading a storm of threads in the dark, and stopping an explosion by just cutting it, which I'd consider sillier than the surgical stab.


I would note for anyone concerned about this being used to say they can do anything by believing it, it probably still needs to be conceivable at a surface level at least. Like even though dodging rain is logically not possible, it's still a common enough trope in several stories because the idea seems fine before you look into why it can't be done.

An example of something they can't do is standing without any foothold.
With a backwards glance towards the undead Blight Dragon fading into the sky, its existence severed, Cecilus and Halibel could be seen and heard descending to the ground while pressingly exchanging words, having just killed the Dragon in a literal flash.

As the unmistakable apexes of the world, the two were equally transcendent beings; however, the fact that they could not defy the laws of physics and remain in the sky provided a certain sort of satisfaction― (Re:Zero, Arc 8 "Vincent Vollachia", Chapter 71 "Heroic Reveries")

But logically impossible footholds like grains of gravel, wood splinters, shards of glass, or cinders of ash, are fair game.
 
I would note for anyone concerned about this being used to say they can do anything by believing it, it probably still needs to be conceivable at a surface level at least.
Obviously yeah. Abilities are limited solely to what they're shown to do in the series. They'd only be able to do stuff they've done, or things similar in match-ups with this logic manip (Law Manip for the time being).
She is his main heroine so you are cooked
I'd cook that bum.
 
Pegasus, could you ping other mods so we can get this accepted and continue the garou vs Reinhard thread (or is that not possible anymore?)
 
continue the garou vs Reinhard thread
It doesn't change much + a CRT needs 48 hours at least + this is kind of cringe honestly. It's just a versus thread. You can remake it if you really want to in however many months that's allowed, or after Garou or Reinhard get big changes. Reinhard still has a named chapter yet to be written, and we're barely scratching the surface of the deeper mechanics in the story.
 
I agree however I would like for which characters you believe to be affected. I think the obvious ones are Reinhard, Cecilus, Halibel and Reid. Should someone like Volcanica be given transcendent as well or because of him being a dragon he shouldn't and what about characters who are dragonkin and spirits and etc.

TLDR: what characters do most people agree will be effected by this CRT aside from the obvious ones.
 
Rainstorms produce a ton of raindrops to the point just a cubic meter can have thousands of droplets within it, it's clearly impossible to dodge every single raindrop in a rainstorm even if you're super fast, there isn't enough space for you to move without bumping into raindrops. In this thread @SeijiSetto calculated at that any given moment there are 6 raindrops occupying the volume where Cecilus, Reinhard etc is, not to mention they are actively moving around and so they would be running into more raindrops, in short this is an impossible feat.
well it's not THAT impressive y'know 🤓

rain is only 14mph and these guys have silly analytical prediction and uhhh ummm also he might have gone around it and uhh hmm umm jumped over the cloud or outran the storm or maybe he uhhh-
 
I agree with law manipulation, but would "limited matter manipulation" be a better alternative than subjective reality?

Or we could just go for a limited version of invincibility
 
I agree however I would like for which characters you believe to be affected. I think the obvious ones are Reinhard, Cecilus, Halibel and Reid. Should someone like Volcanica be given transcendent as well or because of him being a dragon he shouldn't and what about characters who are dragonkin and spirits and etc.

TLDR: what characters do most people agree will be effected by this CRT aside from the obvious ones.
Theresia and Wilhelm+ characters should have it.
Elsa and Ram upscalers should have a version of it too but limited to their own feats.
People I can think of that fall into these categories off the top of my head:

T/W
1. Gluttony's potentially
2. Marcos
3. Kurgan (maybe)
4. Garfiel (maybe)
5. Eugard
6. Olbart

Ram/Elsa upscale

1. Julius (relative)
2. Garfiel
3. Roswaal
4. Marcos
5. Priscilla (maybe)
6. Emilia (maybe)
7. Sirius (maybe)
8. Gluttony's
9. Ricardo (maybe)
10. Grimm
11. Carol
12. Groovy
13. Baleroy
14. Rowan
15. Heinkel (maybe)
16. Olbart
17. Yorna
18. Eugard

Eugard might fall in the same category as Cecilus and Halibel actually..
 
Should someone like Volcanica be given transcendent as well or because of him being a dragon he shouldn't and what about characters who are dragonkin and spirits and etc.
I'd say no. Volcanica is transcendent because it's the ultimate specimen of the ultimate species. Same for the likes of the Witch(es) who is(are) transcendent because of either insane magic or Authorities. Not just due to being superhuman fighters.
 
I'd say no. Volcanica is transcendent because it's the ultimate specimen of the ultimate species. Same for the likes of the Witch(es) who is(are) transcendent because of either insane magic or Authorities. Not just due to being superhuman fighters.
What is the magic skill scaling btw?
 
In conclusion all these impossible feats are the characters explicitly ignoring logic, as such I suggest characters such as Theresia, Reinhard, Cecilus etc all get law manipulation. For them I think it's pretty blatant they're doing impossible stuff. The question is whether or not law manipulation should also apply to characters like Elsa and Ram.
I disagree with this conclusion.

We don't tend to index things that are just outright logical impossibilities. As there's no way to accurately define or quantifiably measure them within our systems. It would be like giving every character who does "the impossible" some kind of law manipulation.

And even if you were to index it, their applicability would be limited in scope to explicitly what they have shown to ignore, which would just be the capability to dodge raindrops and nothing else. Since there's no way you can reasonably extrapolate the impossible onto other things without immediately entering NLF territory. (Example: saying they can just dodge anything even if it is impossible to)

Personally don't really think this can be or should be indexed.

Cecilus was able to run on magma (Arc 8, Chapter 43), to which Al says this is impossible, and Cecilus again says as long as a person thinks something is impossible, they will never be able to do it. Cecilus was able to use a single grain of gravel as a foothold, even fragments of glass and ash. He is able to do this because he can disregard logical and general notions (Arc 8, Chapter 57). In another instance, Cecilus ignored the nature principles which would normally make a human fall to the ground when they have nothing to hold on to (Arc 7, Chapter 106).
Running on magma is free movement. And can even be done within physics if you should move quickly enough.

Being able to stand on grains is also free movement.

All of this is just Free Movement, actually.

If you want to argue that free movement is an application of his subjective reality, I think that would be more compelling than law manipulation.

A lot less susceptible to no limit fallacies at well.
 
Disagree with this being law or logic defying, it's even specifically said they can't defy the laws of physics.
They're neither defying, creating, destroying nor affecting any laws or logic, what they're doing rather is defying or going beyond general preconceived notions of what is and isn't possible. It's based on general comprehension, in other words it's common sense which makes this subjective reality and no, subjective reality doesn't literally have to be turning fiction to reality and vice versa.
 
I'm not sure about this specific case being Law Manipulation. Maybe a limited form of Reality Warping?

It's not really modifying laws, just doing things despite them being impossible. Really, I'd prefer to just put them as a high-grade version of their ordinary ability, such as Free Movement, but not all of these cleanly land into abilities we have specific pages for. We don't have a page for dodging Danmaku, we just put that under speed/skill.

@DontTalkDT How do you think cases like this should be handled?
 
We don't tend to index things that are just outright logical impossibilities. As there's no way to accurately define or quantifiably measure them within our systems
Isn't the wiki outright adding a logic manipulation page which accounts for characters who also defy logic through the use of the ability? Why would this be any different than that?
 
it's even specifically said they can't defy the laws of physics.
They change their mind on the fly.
Cheerfully responding to Al’s exclamation, Cecilus performed an outrageous act that scoffed at the very laws of physics. (8/43 "To Each Their Long-Cherished Desires")
As the unmistakable apexes of the world, the two were equally transcendent beings; however, the fact that they could not defy the laws of physics and remain in the sky provided a certain sort of satisfaction― (8/71 "Heroic Reveries")

In any case I presume Law Manipulation is being suggested by OP because Logic Manipulation is currently considered a subcategory of that.

You are correct that Subjective Reality isn't just manipulating fiction. An example would be magic in Sousou no Frieren.
 
I'm not sure about this specific case being Law Manipulation. Maybe a limited form of Reality Warping?

It's not really modifying laws, just doing things despite them being impossible. Really, I'd prefer to just put them as a high-grade version of their ordinary ability, such as Free Movement, but not all of these cleanly land into abilities we have specific pages for. We don't have a page for dodging Danmaku, we just put that under speed/skill.

@DontTalkDT How do you think cases like this should be handled?
If no clear mechanism is stated I would agree to list it as a high- grade version of their ordinary ability or, generally, a kind of martial art feat.
Outside of that just listing it and not linking to anything is also acceptable.

I don't think law manipulation is appropriate as that would imply that laws being changed is the mechanism, which in a vacuum we can't conclude.
 
If no clear mechanism is stated I would agree to list it as a high- grade version of their ordinary ability or, generally, a kind of martial art feat.
Outside of that just listing it and not linking to anything is also acceptable.

I don't think law manipulation is appropriate as that would imply that laws being changed is the mechanism, which in a vacuum we can't conclude.
read garou vs reinhard for why that is a bad idea (vehement opposition)
 
If no clear mechanism is stated I would agree to list it as a high- grade version of their ordinary ability or, generally, a kind of martial art feat.
Outside of that just listing it and not linking to anything is also acceptable.

I don't think law manipulation is appropriate as that would imply that laws being changed is the mechanism, which in a vacuum we can't conclude.
Yeah, ig you could just put "Can dodge undodgeable attacks" in the P&A.
 
Doesn't work for skill either. Completely unquantifiable. A catalyst for an endless amount of no-limit-fallacy arguments in skill debates.

"Your character can predict a thousand attacks ahead, learned a million martial arts that each take decades to learn, and copy any technique at a glance? That's cool and all but my character performs a skill feat that is literally mathematically impossible so none of that matters."

That's an exaggeration but I have already seen this kind of thing happen in the thread that spawned this thread.

It doesn't even make sense as a 'skill,' because there is no method of physically moving your body in any "skillful" fashion that will get you to dodge rain. It is either some kind of magic or it just can't be quantified at all.
 
read garou vs reinhard for why that is a bad idea (vehement opposition)
Not the thread for it but since it seems like this is what mainly bothers you I'll say it. There will still be vehement opposition to this even if this thread passes. The problem like I said already in the vs thread isn't the use of the feats, it's the method in which you choose to argue with it.
Dodging rain is a feat that should only matter if faced against someone that spams danmaku of equal number. In such a scenario it can be argued he can avoid all of it however, it doesn't mean an equally skilled practitioner will be incapable of tagging as long as their verse doesn't have such a feat. Know this and know peace
 
Not the thread for it but since it seems like this is what mainly bothers you I'll say it. There will still be vehement opposition to this even if this thread passes. The problem like I said already in the vs thread isn't the use of the feats, it's the method in which you choose to argue with it.
Dodging rain is a feat that should only matter if faced against someone that spams danmaku of equal number. In such a scenario it can be argued he can avoid all of it however, it doesn't mean an equally skilled practitioner will be incapable of tagging as long as their verse doesn't have such a feat. Know this and know peace
So why wouldn’t rain dodging apply in CQC? I get why you’d want to argue against it, but let me give you a better analogy.


Imagine two fighters with roughly comparable skills, one of them even holding a slight edge overall. But the other has an overwhelming advantage in a single area—say, analytical prediction—so dominant that it makes the rest of the skillset irrelevant. That’s essentially what rain dodging represents except its instinctive reaction.
 
Yeah, ig you could just put "Can dodge undodgeable attacks" in the P&A.
Maybe a bit more detailed than that since there are different levels/kinds of "undodgeable", but yeah, ultimately, just explaining things in full detail and having people think for themselves in debates of equivalences is an underappreciated approach.
 
So why wouldn’t rain dodging apply in CQC? I get why you’d want to argue against it, but let me give you a better analogy.


Imagine two fighters with roughly comparable skills, one of them even holding a slight edge overall. But the other has an overwhelming advantage in a single area—say, analytical prediction—so dominant that it makes the rest of the skillset irrelevant. That’s essentially what rain dodging represents except its instinctive reaction.
Rain Dodging isn't impressive on it's own since the speed at which rainfalls is slow, the only impressive thing in such a feat is the ability to fit a much larger volume within a much smaller one. Sure I'd give props for being able to read and evade the rain drops if they did that but it doesn't make it any more impressive.
Say an adult and a child are playing a game of extreme chase with the proper obstacles and everything but the child is able to keep evading the adult's attempt to catch them by slipping through spaces a fully grown person cannot pass through, does that make the child better at the game?
 
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Rain Dodging isn't impressive on it's own since the speed at which rainfalls is slow
Aren't some things in the OP literally attacks that are as dense as sand in a sandstorm that scale to the people who dodged them in speed?
Kid Cecilus dodges danmaku comparable to grains in a sandstorm or raindrops in a rainstorm. (Volume 37). This proves the earlier statement about dodging rain because he thinks he can do so, was true.
These shouldn't be much slower than the person dodging (The exception being the feats where they actually did just dodge ordinary rain. But some of these examples are attacks/danmaku that are as dense as rain, sandstorms, or potentially even mist)
 
Rain Dodging isn't impressive on it's own since the speed at which rainfalls is slow, the only impressive thing in such a feat is the ability to fit a much larger volume within a much smaller one. Sure I'd give props for being able to read and evade the rain drops if they did that but it doesn't make it any more impressive.
Say an adult and a child are playing a game of extreme chase with the proper obstacles and everything but the child is able to keep evading the adult's attempt to catch them by slipping through spaces a fully grown person cannot pass through, does that make the child better at the game?
they also dodge rain of light and mist of light, as you can see on the wiki. They are still FTL which means its relative to their speed.


Also i was wondering if we should discuss Ram dodging garfiel while he was transformed and trying to kill her at "supersonic" speeds (this is a lowball) while she was a normal human via intuiton and talent alone. Since, it does fall in this category

And its also cqc so the argument about it dodging being limited to AoE or danmaku also doesnt apply
 
yeah and we are discussing nonsense feats from other characters, good morning fezzih
Is night over here tbh.
1.My point is that we already discussed this feat before, we don't need to do It again.
2. The feats above are not really comparable to this one? Like, the difference between them is there's multiple instances of them dodge rain, so is consistent enough.

But dodging attacks that are like, Millions times faster than you only happened this one instance. Again, is a outlier.

This is still ignoring the fact that Ram while in a weak state can dodge and react to attacks that should blitz her millions times over, but in peak condition, she can't actually blitz people like that. Her "Skill and Intuition" only works one way for no reason?
 
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