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So is this done or what?
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Hunter x Hunter Overhaul (Scaling)
- Thread starter LordTracer
- Start date
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- Tags
- hunter x hunter
- Status
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M3X's gotta change up a calc a bit (and by that i mean basically redo it so give him time) then we can move onto the scaling.
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Oh ok I didn't mean to come off as rude. Pitou was hypersonic+ with no calc so I wasn't sure
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no problem, my apologies if i came off as defensive myself, I didn't get that vibe from you so dw.
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Oh ok guess I misread the situation.
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Bump. BTW I don't know if we're done with speed scaling but a nice supporting feat for Killua is he isn't worried about tanks and jets and we actually see him wipe out a group of them by himself. From a quick search most tanks have 470 m/s as a minimum for muzzle velocity.
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Modern tanks have the 1600 m/s Rheinmetal 120mm tank cannon.
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Yh I was just giving the minimum I found.
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is there a way to calc gon seeing pitou in slow motion by scaling her to something or someone?
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Superhuman speed?
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Metal Gear?
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yeah, he dodges her, and just looks as she flies by in slow motion
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Iirc we’re waiting for some calcs to be done
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M3X was supposed to do them, but I suppose I could try the crater feat myself if he prefers
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alright
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When are you talking about? During his Transformation yeet of Pitou?
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Ima be completely forthright, and I mean this in sincerely no offensive/rude manner. I just will break it down to a way I could understand a full page thread of writing. So here ya go @Antvasima
So there may be from my understanding 2 more feats being calc’d.
I’d say give it another 2-3 days before pushing/bumping them for updates again.
We’re waiting is said.
Armor confirms M3X was supposed to do em.
M3X implies that he’s done a lot already, and wouldn’t mind Armor calc’ing more feats.
Armor confirms he will do what M3X would prefer.
Youpi is agreed I believe, Tank is soft rejected I believe, Silva needs recalc’d.
So there may be from my understanding 2 more feats being calc’d.
I’d say give it another 2-3 days before pushing/bumping them for updates again.
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yes
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Okay, so after rewatching it I have two statements:
1. I don’t believe that was slow motion viewing, rather than an important moment slowed down to highlight its dramatization.
2. Even if it was a perceived slow motion, I’m not entirely sure a person could calculate the perception of a character that’s not givin really any sort of valuable perception speed scaling to scale - calc off of.
I’m just some random though, so I could be wrong, that’s just my input.
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bump
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bump
some calcs had to be made
some calcs had to be made
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Hello prospective Hunters; hope you are done playing Dragon Quest. Let's see if we can get this thread revived.
I'll start with some interesting trivia:
The known world is just a small part of a lake in a super planet; assuming the HxH world is not flat, how fast compared to our planet must the super planet spin to have a 24H day/night cycle? What explains the similarity in gravity, and if gravity different to ours is in effect does this play a role in why blimps are the main technology for air travel?
Which one of you actually reads the exposition chapters fully instead of skimming through?
And finally a reminder and a warning of the terrible power of PIS, retcons, and forced drama.
You can't stop a Hunter with a .22 caliber pistol; makes sense. But ten chapters later we learn that a high-tier Nen user like Kurapika can't remain unscathed against normal 9mm pistols even if he blocks by gathering lots of Aura on one spot with Gyo. Even the fodder Dalzollene can tank ten bullets without being injured!
Hope this was a decent appetizer for Hiatus x Hiatus verse revision. Now let's get to the meat of it (unless you are vegetarian, in which case you get meat substitutes).
So these are the main issues to be discussed for scaling most of the cast:
If we use vaporization we get Low 7-C.
If we use pulverization we get 8-B, and we will most likely discard this calc and upscale Youpi from a higher calc.
Damage calculated the crater as it is shown in chapter 279:
And got 7-C+ with vaporization, and 8-A with pulverization, though the calc is not evaluated yet.
Youpi has a statement that the people he fought have less than one tenth of his sheer strength, so this can potentially be used as a multiplier for downscaling others or upscaling Youpi. Though I'd say that Rage Blast doesn't necessarily scale to Youpi's base form.
The main argument for using vaporization is the existence of a very large amount of smoke which seems to move up.
But the prevalent opinion in the previous thread is to only use pulverization with Youpi's crater, with the existence of fragmented rocks near the crater being among the strongest evidence.
The 8-B calc was reduced to High 8-C+ by the surface area, and this end was approved.
It doesn't make much sense scaling wise for the ant to make 8-A or Low 7-C, as it is a casual feat done by a fodder yet it is the most powerful feat up to that point in the manga. Though calculating it is tricky since the size of trees in the forest is wildly variable; there are normal sized trees and gigantic trees.
Though to provide my own criticism of the calc, it is mentioned that Hisoka was swarmed by 200 puppets which he used as a shield against the incoming bomb puppets, and that he suffocated while being buried under puppets.
So the assumption of the puppets being vaporized doesn't seem to match, and it is stated in the narrative that he didn't receive the full force of the explosion (technically multiple explosions, but the bomb puppets previously seemed to explode simultaneously in unison).
Calc by M3X, which is around the 8-B range.
However Armor requested to make modification and use Silva as the reference for scaling instead, so I did it myself:
Silva's height is 1.98 m, and his height in the panel as I measured is 187 pixels
Crater diameter:
Which is significantly less than the original calc. Even with 100% pulverization, which is most likely unreasonable, it only gets High 8-C.
A casual feat that will be used as a supporting one.
By the size of the explosion, the feat is only 9-A, but the explosion either vaporized 5 people or reduced them to ash.
If it vaporized them, that would be 0.069818*5 = 0.34909 Tons [8-C]
If it reduce them to ash, that would be 0.058137456*5 = 0.29068728 Tons [8-C]
Whether Netero's Zero Hand, which Meruem tanked with injuries, constitutes vaporization or pulverization is a contentous issue.
This is a calc from ChaosTheory about Zero Hand with a High 7-C high-end, which DMUA is said to have approved. We should properly port it into our wiki's blog.
This is an unevaluated calc from LIFE_OF_KING, which gets Low 7-C with vaporization (would get 8-A with pulverization)
There is the issue of Poor Man's Rose, which has an unevaluated 7-B calc with melting.
And Meruem busting a hill with a Rage Blast can be calculated. Though getting the size of the hill would be a challenge as I don't recall any reference, so we might have to assume a size. A method that might be promising is to angsize Meruem's Rage Blast beam, since it visually shrinks when it got far away.
A random casual low tier feat is that Meruem blew up a big hole in the Chimera Ant's nest with a punch the Chapter 213.
That is if we can call whatever we have now 'scaling'. Characters are given Subsonic+ and Hypersonic+ ratings without any calcs. So I suggest we return to the starting line.
I'll list a bunch of speed feats and we'll see which ones are worth calculating (or searching for already existing calculations for it in world-wide web). Some of them might be useful for scaling but not calculating.
Travel speed appears to be significantly slower than combat and burst speed.
I think it is beneficial to keep the Hunter Exam arc its own key for Gon, since Gon got the weight training in the Zoldyck arc which significantly raised his physical abilities. Though the suggested key works for Killua.
Though to play Devil's Advocate, Gon somehow managed to casually crush Illumi's arm with one hand in the Hunter Exam arc, even though Illumi supposedly got the weight training. Don't worry, Illumi got powercreeped later. Properly.
Also there are some potential multipliers. Ko is stated to gather 10 times the Aura in one spot than what usually exist:
Jajanken and Big Bang Impact are advanced applications of Ko which are even stronger. Feitan used Ko against transformed Zazan before his sword broke, so her transformed form would scale.
The databook gives character statistics. Should we consider this a reliable source for scaling?
Finally, I think that enraged/determined Gon should have a different rating than base Gon. So while the AP of base Gon wouldn't scale to Pitou and Netero, the AP of enraged Gon does.
Netero's Nen output puts him below Royal Guards:
[1]
[2]
[3]
Razor called determined Greed Island Gon a monster judging by his Aura:
[1]
[2]
And while Morel felt like being pricked by needles when exposed to Netero's Nen output, he was more overwhelmed by enraged Gon's Aura and was made to sweat. He is also able to kill Morel with Jajanken when it previously just knocked Knuckle out:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
Killua originally thinks that Neferpitou is going to fight them without using Nen, but dismisses this idea because enraged Gon has more powerful Aura than normal:
[1]
[2]
This suggest that enraged Gon is significantly more powerful than Killua in raw power.
And Pitou thinking that Gon is a threat to the king was something that was suspected even before Gon's transformation (and therefore before he sacrificed his potential for more power):
[1]
[2]
[3]
Discuss.
I'll start with some interesting trivia:
The known world is just a small part of a lake in a super planet; assuming the HxH world is not flat, how fast compared to our planet must the super planet spin to have a 24H day/night cycle? What explains the similarity in gravity, and if gravity different to ours is in effect does this play a role in why blimps are the main technology for air travel?
Which one of you actually reads the exposition chapters fully instead of skimming through?
And finally a reminder and a warning of the terrible power of PIS, retcons, and forced drama.
You can't stop a Hunter with a .22 caliber pistol; makes sense. But ten chapters later we learn that a high-tier Nen user like Kurapika can't remain unscathed against normal 9mm pistols even if he blocks by gathering lots of Aura on one spot with Gyo. Even the fodder Dalzollene can tank ten bullets without being injured!
Hope this was a decent appetizer for Hiatus x Hiatus verse revision. Now let's get to the meat of it (unless you are vegetarian, in which case you get meat substitutes).
So these are the main issues to be discussed for scaling most of the cast:
1- Youpi's Rage Blast crater
Based on M3X's calc of the crater Youpi made in chapter 278:If we use vaporization we get Low 7-C.
If we use pulverization we get 8-B, and we will most likely discard this calc and upscale Youpi from a higher calc.
Damage calculated the crater as it is shown in chapter 279:
And got 7-C+ with vaporization, and 8-A with pulverization, though the calc is not evaluated yet.
Youpi has a statement that the people he fought have less than one tenth of his sheer strength, so this can potentially be used as a multiplier for downscaling others or upscaling Youpi. Though I'd say that Rage Blast doesn't necessarily scale to Youpi's base form.
The main argument for using vaporization is the existence of a very large amount of smoke which seems to move up.
But the prevalent opinion in the previous thread is to only use pulverization with Youpi's crater, with the existence of fragmented rocks near the crater being among the strongest evidence.
2- Bombardier Beetle
Killua's surface area was accounted for in a calc by M3X. The calcs the surface area were applied on a calc by LordUrien935 (Low 7-C), a calc by ChaosTheory (8-B one), and one by Cable's Calculations (Low 7-C).The 8-B calc was reduced to High 8-C+ by the surface area, and this end was approved.
It doesn't make much sense scaling wise for the ant to make 8-A or Low 7-C, as it is a casual feat done by a fodder yet it is the most powerful feat up to that point in the manga. Though calculating it is tricky since the size of trees in the forest is wildly variable; there are normal sized trees and gigantic trees.
3- Hisoka survives Chrollo's bomb puppets
Calc by M3X, which yields 8-B with pulverization even before taking the fragmented area and people getting vaporized into account.Though to provide my own criticism of the calc, it is mentioned that Hisoka was swarmed by 200 puppets which he used as a shield against the incoming bomb puppets, and that he suffocated while being buried under puppets.
So the assumption of the puppets being vaporized doesn't seem to match, and it is stated in the narrative that he didn't receive the full force of the explosion (technically multiple explosions, but the bomb puppets previously seemed to explode simultaneously in unison).
4- Silva punching Cheetu into a crater
Calc by M3X, which is around the 8-B range.
However Armor requested to make modification and use Silva as the reference for scaling instead, so I did it myself:
Silva's height is 1.98 m, and his height in the panel as I measured is 187 pixels
Crater diameter:
- Crater diameter: 442 px = 4.68 m
- Crater depth: 359 px = 3.80117647 m
Which is significantly less than the original calc. Even with 100% pulverization, which is most likely unreasonable, it only gets High 8-C.
5- Uvogin tanks an anti-tank super bazooka
Calc by M3X.A casual feat that will be used as a supporting one.
By the size of the explosion, the feat is only 9-A, but the explosion either vaporized 5 people or reduced them to ash.
If it vaporized them, that would be 0.069818*5 = 0.34909 Tons [8-C]
If it reduce them to ash, that would be 0.058137456*5 = 0.29068728 Tons [8-C]
Meruem stuff
So with the main AP feats/calcs that do not involve Meruem highlighted, here is what involves Meruem.Whether Netero's Zero Hand, which Meruem tanked with injuries, constitutes vaporization or pulverization is a contentous issue.
This is a calc from ChaosTheory about Zero Hand with a High 7-C high-end, which DMUA is said to have approved. We should properly port it into our wiki's blog.
This is an unevaluated calc from LIFE_OF_KING, which gets Low 7-C with vaporization (would get 8-A with pulverization)
There is the issue of Poor Man's Rose, which has an unevaluated 7-B calc with melting.
And Meruem busting a hill with a Rage Blast can be calculated. Though getting the size of the hill would be a challenge as I don't recall any reference, so we might have to assume a size. A method that might be promising is to angsize Meruem's Rage Blast beam, since it visually shrinks when it got far away.
A random casual low tier feat is that Meruem blew up a big hole in the Chimera Ant's nest with a punch the Chapter 213.
We were too slow... HxH's speed scaling is dead
That doesn't mean we can't make up a substitute speed scaling!That is if we can call whatever we have now 'scaling'. Characters are given Subsonic+ and Hypersonic+ ratings without any calcs. So I suggest we return to the starting line.
I'll list a bunch of speed feats and we'll see which ones are worth calculating (or searching for already existing calculations for it in world-wide web). Some of them might be useful for scaling but not calculating.
- Gon catches up from a distance to a man who fell from a tilted ship (Chapter 2)
- The Hunter Exam's examinees ran 80 kilometers in six hours (Chapter 7) In case you were wondering about their pace
- Hisoka throws his cards at the Man-faced Ape faster than he can react and at an other Man-faced Ape faster than he can run, with Satotz catching Hisoka's cards (Chapter 8)
- Kurapika deflects Hisoka's cards, which hit and killed several examinees (Chapter 8)
- Hisoka rushes in and slashes several examinees with his card faster than they can react (Chapter 8)
- Hisoka disappears from the panel just when Gon was about to hit him, and then reappears beside Gon faster than he can perceive (Chapter 8)
- Gon disappears from the panel by jumping to the ceiling in Netero's ball challenge (Chapter 13)
- Netero outspeeds Gon and Killua from a distance, just when they were about to catch the ball (Chapter 14)
- Killua slashes two men, seemingly multiple times, before they can notice (Chapter 14)
- Gon moving in front of Sedokan faster than he can notice in the candle challenge (Chapter 17) This feat seems to be forgotten about, and a calc will likely give beginning of series Gon his Subsonic rating proper
- Killua blitzes Johness the Dissector, moving to him and ripping his heart and moving behind him, before he can notice (Chapter 21)
- Killua was out of arms reach, but he managed to snatch one of the Amori brothers' badge from his pocket with no visible movement (Chapter 29)
- Hanzo appears beside Gon faster than he can perceive, while Gon was running away (Chapter 33)
- Gotoh repetedly tosses and catches a coin faster than a normal person can see, and throws it to a man behind Gon faster than a normal person can see (Chapter 43)
- Killua disappears when he is about to be hit by Zushi's punch and appears behind him (Chapter 45)
- Machi makes at least dozens of stitches to connect Hisoka's severed arms in a short time, mentioning that all tissues are sewn together implying she connected blood vessels and nerves (Chapter 55)
- Killua jumps high above faster than Riehlvelt can perceive (Chapter 59)
- Killua casually catches Riehlvelt's whips when he performs his Song of Defense technique, repeatedly swinging his whips faster than normal people can perceive and producing whipcracks (Chapter 59) It is of note that whipcracks in real life are produced due to the tip of the whip surpassing the speed of sound
- Gon creates afterimages to distract Hisoka (Chapter 61)
- Kurapika swings his chain multiple times to capture bullets fired at him within the chain's links (Chapter 68)
- Nobunaga spars with Franklin, and seems to react to Franklin's bullets from close range (Chapter 71)
- Shachmono reacts to Franklin's bullets, and expands his Black Children before the bullets reach him. Blaise and Ivlenkov appear to jump out of the way of the bullets, and managed to evade the hail of Nen bullets enough to escape the auction room (Chapter 73) I'd say that this is a great feat to get the speed of fodder Hunters from
- Uvogin catches a bullet fired from point-blank with his teeth (Chapter 75)
- Uvogin says that the Phantom Troupe are fast enough to cover their ears before the sound from his Nen-enhanced scream reaches them (Chapter 76)
- Kurapika disappears just when Uvogin was about to hit them faster than Uvogin can perceive, and then reappears behind Uvogin (Chapter 82)
- Killua repeatedly moves as a blur in an attempt to make Phinks lose sight of him (Chapter 90)
- Chrollo knocks out Neon with a chop to the back of her neck faster than normal people can perceive, and a security camera only captured a frame of Chrollo's arm blurring in its original position (Chapter 96)
- Feitan and Phinks blitz mafia members, cutting their head off or snapping their necks and appearing behind them, faster than they can perceive (Chapter 97)
- Kurapika rolls away from machinegun bullets after they have been fired and takes cover (Chapter 97)
- Kurapika can use his chain to capture people from across the street within 0.5 seconds (Chapter 110)
- Kurapika captured Chrollo from the reception desk within 0.2 to 0.3 seconds, though Chrollo's reaction was slowed by the sudden darkness from the lights going out (Chapter 114)
- Nobunaga biltzes Squala, moving to him and cutting his head off and moving behind him, faster than he can perceive (Chapter 112)
- Gon blitzes a Greed Island player, moving to him to snatch his card and move behind him, before the player can notice (Chapter 133)
- Killua blitzing the 288th Hunter Exam's examinees, knocking out 1488 person in a short time, though collecting their badges delayed him and made his overall time an hour and a half to finish badge collection (Chapter 148)
- Gon and Killua jump a distance that is noticeably further than 16 m faster than Tsezguerra can perceive (Chapter 160)
- Razor's devils repeatedly pass a dodgeball between them faster than Tsezguerra can perceive (Chapter 162)
- Gon, Killua, and Kite run far away from horses and their riders before they can notice (Chapter 190)
- Neferpitou launches themself at Gon, Killua, and Kite's location from a very long distance and cuts Kite's arm (Chapter 198) Chapter 259 states that Neferpitou's En tentacles is what reached Kite, and the tentacles can extend to 2 kilometers, so this distance can be used as the confirmed high-end. For a low-end we can measure the shorter tentacles
- Cheetu disappears just before bullets are about to hit him, and he rips the fingers of at least two officers and appears behind them faster than they can perceive (Chapter 218)
- Cheetu travels at a speed over 125 MPH or 55.88 m/s according to authorities (Chapter 218)
- Killua after removing Illumi's needle blitzes Rammot, moving to him and ripping his head and moving behind him, faster than he can perceive (Chapter 219) NGL's port of entry does a full-body scan using metal detector, x-ray, and ultrasound. They ban synthetic materials and implants, including surgical bolts, metal dentals fillings, and silicon prosthetics. So how did they not notice Illumi's needle lodged in Killua's head???
Uh oh, another plothole - Killua dodges Palm's knife just when it is about to touch him, disappearing and appearing nearby, faster than Palm can perceive (Chapter 220)
- Phantom Troupe members move fast enough to disappear from the panel (Chapter 225)
- Bonolenov's Jupiter is stated to move at the speed of sound (Chapter 227) The Chimera Ant with sharp teeth is slower than sound, so it seems that the speed of officer level Chimera Ants scale slower than sound
- Knuckle estimates that Cheetu travels at a speed of 100-110 MPH or 44.704-49.1744 m/s (Chapter 235)
- Killua making quick work of Leol's squad (Chapter 236)
- Killua dodges Ikalgo's flea air gun with help from his En when the flea bullet was 57 cm away (Chapter 237)
- Killua blitzes Ikalgo, apparing behind him and stabbing Ikalgo's host body's head faster than Ikalgo can perceive (Chapter 237)
- Killua grabs Ikalgo faster than he can perceive, when Ikalgo moved far away using his air gun (Chapter 238)
- Killua blitzes the Ortho siblings, cutting their heads faster than they can perceive (Chapter 240)
- Killua catches the Ortho siblings' dart with his Hatsu enhanced reflexes just when it materializes in his head and stabs him (Chapter 240) There is a statement that this requires light-speed reflexes, but this is obviously a hyperbole
- Leol states that he can throw the harpoon from his stolen ability at sonic speed (Chapter 253)
- Neferpitou takes less than 0.1 seconds to attack after activating Terpsichora as stated, while being some distance away from Netero who is being attacked (Chapter 264)
- Netero finishes attacking Neferpitou with his bodhisattva hand between the time of activating Terpsichora and attacking (Chapter 264) Neferpitou was able to observe Netero's attack by compressing their awareness and internal sensation of time
- Netero at least 60 years before the Chimera Ant arc managed to punch faster than sound, and put his hands together in prayer and punching 10,000 times in less than an hour when the routine originally took him more than 18 hours, with each prayer+punch taking 5-6 seconds in the beginning (Chapter 265)
- Youpi finishes transforming his arm and smashing the stairway in 0.27 seconds (Chapter 267)
- Neferpitou falls from a height of around 100 meters in the air and around 500 meters away from the palace, and then launches themself back to the palace after falling to the ground, with their leg swelling to twice the size it did against Kite (Chapter 267) Neferpitou was high in the air when Dragon Dive hit the palace after 0.96 seconds, and Youpi destroyed the stairs at 3.28 seconds after feeling Neferpitou's En when they was still mid-air, and Neferpitou arrived at the Palace at 4.87 seconds. So maybe we can get a reasonable timeframe if we calculate and detract the time it takes for Neferpitou to fall to the ground, but the maximum is 1.59 seconds
- Gon and Killua arrived at the right wing of the palace and travelled across its hallway by 4.87 seconds from the invasion, noting that they were at the central stairway at 3.28 seconds from the invasion (Chapter 269)
- Killua uses his yo-yos to blow the heads of two Chimera Ants from a distance faster than they can react, he then rips their hearts and arms and appears behind them (Chapter 269)
- Gon managed to climb the stairs to the second floor of the right tower by 6.52 seconds from the invasion, after he travelled from the central tower from 3.28 seconds after the invasion (Chapter 269)
- Before Knuckle intervened, the fight between Youpi and Shoot occurred for just 10 seconds (Chapter 272)
- Knuckle outruns Youpi's Rage Blast (Chapter 278)
- Killua blitzes Youpi and disappears from his sight with Whirlwind (Chapter 281)
- Knuckle and Morel run away from Youpi's Rage Blast when they were very close to him when he was about to explode (Chapter 285)
- Youpi in Rage Incarnate form blitzes a Morel smoke clone from distance (Chapter 287)
- Youpi in Rage Incarnate form moves a distance behind Knuckle faster than he can perceive (Chapter 289)
- Meruem is faster than Netero except when Netero does his prayer motion and use the bodhisattva to attack (Chapter 292)
- Netero struck Meruem well over a thousand times with his bodhisattva in less than a minute (Chapter 297)
- Neferpitou was able to rush at Gon to decapitate him, but their instinct warned them that he'll be able to react (Chapter 300)
- Meruem needs 20 minutes to run from the site where he fought Netero to the palace according to Shaiapouf (Chapter 301)
- Meruem needs 5 minutes to fly with his wings from the site where he fought Netero to the palace according to Shaiapouf (Chapter 301) Youpi originally estimated 15 minutes, but Meruem flies faster than expected
- Killua using Speed of Lightning moves away from a Shaiapouf clone faster than he can perceive (Chapter 303)
- Killua using Speed of Lightning runs a distance away from Palm's position (Chapter 305)
- Adult Gon leaves the room faster than Neferpitou can perceive after they attacked with Terpsichora (Chapter 306)
- Adult Gon disappears just when Neferpitou was about to land a hit (Chapter 306)
- Killua rushes in and pushes Adult Gon away, after Neferpitou's corpse controlled by Terpsichora rushes at Gon to attack him from a much closer distance than where Killua is (Chapter 307)
- Meruem's En is stated to lit up the palace at the speed of a flash of light (Chapter 308)
- Meruem appears before Knuckle and Meleoron faster than they can perceive, and blitzes them when they are at snailspeed (Chapter 308)
- Welfin uses a truck for travel (Chapter 309) Previously Kite dismissed horses because it is faster to travel by running, and Gon told Neferpitou that they can travel to Peijin faster by running at Chapter 300
- Killua using Lightning Speed moved fast enough to disappear from Gotoh's, Canary's, and Amane's perception when they were surrounding him (Chapter 327)
- Hisoka reacts to Gotoh firing his coins with more power than a bullet. When Hisoka is about to get hit by the coins, he jumps and disappears faster than Gotoh can perceive, then repeatedly jumps between trees faster than Gotoh can follow (Chapter 327)
- Tsubone in bike mode with two riders surpass Killua's maximum Lightning Speed's travel speed while carrying someone (Chapter 328) Am I the only one who finds Nen users using Conjuration to transform their bodies into objects goofy and contrived?
- Killua using Lightning Speed can travel to a town 40 km away in under 10 minutes while crossing the woods instead of using the road (Chapter 328) Roughly 66.66 m/s or 149 MPH or 240 km/hr
- Illumi sticks needles in several people faster than they can react (Chapter 328)
- Ging and Pariston dodge fire from machineguns Muherr's henchmen conjured (Chapter 347)
- Ging performs twelve quick punches, and ports them using Leorio's ability for practically simultaneous remote punches (Chapter 347)
Travel speed appears to be significantly slower than combat and burst speed.
Gon/Killua keys and some misc. scaling
M3X suggested streamlining the keys.| Original: Key:Hunter Exam Arc | Zoldyck Family Arc/Heavens Arena Arc/Yorknew City Arc | Greed Island Arc | Chimera Ant Arc | Adult Gon |
| Suggested: Key: Hunter Exam Arc to Zoldyck Family Arc | Heavens Arena Arc to Yorknew City Arc | Greed Island Arc to Beginning of Chimera Ants Arc | Chimera Ants Arc |
I think it is beneficial to keep the Hunter Exam arc its own key for Gon, since Gon got the weight training in the Zoldyck arc which significantly raised his physical abilities. Though the suggested key works for Killua.
Though to play Devil's Advocate, Gon somehow managed to casually crush Illumi's arm with one hand in the Hunter Exam arc, even though Illumi supposedly got the weight training. Don't worry, Illumi got powercreeped later. Properly.
Also there are some potential multipliers. Ko is stated to gather 10 times the Aura in one spot than what usually exist:
Jajanken and Big Bang Impact are advanced applications of Ko which are even stronger. Feitan used Ko against transformed Zazan before his sword broke, so her transformed form would scale.
The databook gives character statistics. Should we consider this a reliable source for scaling?
Finally, I think that enraged/determined Gon should have a different rating than base Gon. So while the AP of base Gon wouldn't scale to Pitou and Netero, the AP of enraged Gon does.
Netero's Nen output puts him below Royal Guards:
[1]
[2]
[3]
Razor called determined Greed Island Gon a monster judging by his Aura:
[1]
[2]
And while Morel felt like being pricked by needles when exposed to Netero's Nen output, he was more overwhelmed by enraged Gon's Aura and was made to sweat. He is also able to kill Morel with Jajanken when it previously just knocked Knuckle out:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
Killua originally thinks that Neferpitou is going to fight them without using Nen, but dismisses this idea because enraged Gon has more powerful Aura than normal:
[1]
[2]
This suggest that enraged Gon is significantly more powerful than Killua in raw power.
And Pitou thinking that Gon is a threat to the king was something that was suspected even before Gon's transformation (and therefore before he sacrificed his potential for more power):
[1]
[2]
[3]
Hopefully-not-the-end.
If we can't even un-hiatus this thread, then there is no hope for the manga.Discuss.
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Thinking now, we could use this method. The result will change to 8-B probably
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Y'know it's been a while since I read HXH and I totally thought that panel was a parody or something. lol
Either version seems fine to me but I'd go with pulv.
Eh, I'm not sure cause he said "less" than 1/10th so we can't just divide by 10 and assume that's correct
Seems ok at a glance
4- Silva punching Cheetu into a crater
Calc by M3X, which is around the 8-B range.
However Armor requested to make modification and use Silva as the reference for scaling instead, so I did it myself:
Silva's height is 1.98 m, and his height in the panel as I measured is 187 pixels
Crater diameter:
Half Ellipsoid volume: 43592157 cm^3
- Crater diameter: 442 px = 4.68 m
- Crater depth: 359 px = 3.80117647 m
Which is significantly less than the original calc. Even with 100% pulverization, which is most likely unreasonable, it only gets High 8-C.
Still believe that the ash end is better.
I feel like it might be a better idea to leave Meruem aside? We've got a lot on our hands already so I think tackling the god tier too might be a mistake
Same story here, I think we should stick to AP for now. But that is very good research. There were actually a couple speed calcs I approved/rejected a long while ago that I don't think were ever brought up here.
there's no hope even if we manage to conclude this thread
Been too long since I read HXH, can't input here
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Hello prospective Hunters; hope you are done playing Dragon Quest. Let's see if we can get this thread revived.
I'll start with some interesting trivia:
The known world is just a small part of a lake in a super planet; assuming the HxH world is not flat, how fast compared to our planet must the super planet spin to have a 24H day/night cycle? What explains the similarity in gravity, and if gravity different to ours is in effect does this play a role in why blimps are the main technology for air travel?
Which one of you actually reads the exposition chapters fully instead of skimming through?
And finally a reminder and a warning of the terrible power of PIS, retcons, and forced drama.
You can't stop a Hunter with a .22 caliber pistol; makes sense. But ten chapters later we learn that a high-tier Nen user like Kurapika can't remain unscathed against normal 9mm pistols even if he blocks by gathering lots of Aura on one spot with Gyo. Even the fodder Dalzollene can tank ten bullets without being injured!
Hope this was a decent appetizer for Hiatus x Hiatus verse revision. Now let's get to the meat of it (unless you are vegetarian, in which case you get meat substitutes).
So these are the main issues to be discussed for scaling most of the cast:
1- Youpi's Rage Blast crater
Based on M3X's calc of the crater Youpi made in chapter 278:
If we use vaporization we get Low 7-C.
If we use pulverization we get 8-B, and we will most likely discard this calc and upscale Youpi from a higher calc.
Damage calculated the crater as it is shown in chapter 279:
And got 7-C+ with vaporization, and 8-A with pulverization, though the calc is not evaluated yet.
Youpi has a statement that the people he fought have less than one tenth of his sheer strength, so this can potentially be used as a multiplier for downscaling others or upscaling Youpi. Though I'd say that Rage Blast doesn't necessarily scale to Youpi's base form.
The main argument for using vaporization is the existence of a very large amount of smoke which seems to move up.
But the prevalent opinion in the previous thread is to only use pulverization with Youpi's crater, with the existence of fragmented rocks near the crater being among the strongest evidence.
2- Bombardier Beetle
Killua's surface area was accounted for in a calc by M3X. The calcs the surface area were applied on a calc by LordUrien935 (Low 7-C), a calc by ChaosTheory (8-B one), and one by Cable's Calculations (Low 7-C).
The 8-B calc was reduced to High 8-C+ by the surface area, and this end was approved.
It doesn't make much sense scaling wise for the ant to make 8-A or Low 7-C, as it is a casual feat done by a fodder yet it is the most powerful feat up to that point in the manga. Though calculating it is tricky since the size of trees in the forest is wildly variable; there are normal sized trees and gigantic trees.
3- Hisoka survives Chrollo's bomb puppets
Calc by M3X, which yields 8-B with pulverization even before taking the fragmented area and people getting vaporized into account.
Though to provide my own criticism of the calc, it is mentioned that Hisoka was swarmed by 200 puppets which he used as a shield against the incoming bomb puppets, and that he suffocated while being buried under puppets.
So the assumption of the puppets being vaporized doesn't seem to match, and it is stated in the narrative that he didn't receive the full force of the explosion (technically multiple explosions, but the bomb puppets previously seemed to explode simultaneously in unison).
4- Silva punching Cheetu into a crater
Calc by M3X, which is around the 8-B range.
However Armor requested to make modification and use Silva as the reference for scaling instead, so I did it myself:
Silva's height is 1.98 m, and his height in the panel as I measured is 187 pixels
Crater diameter:
Half Ellipsoid volume: 43592157 cm^3
- Crater diameter: 442 px = 4.68 m
- Crater depth: 359 px = 3.80117647 m
Which is significantly less than the original calc. Even with 100% pulverization, which is most likely unreasonable, it only gets High 8-C.
5- Uvogin tanks an anti-tank super bazooka
Calc by M3X.
A casual feat that will be used as a supporting one.
By the size of the explosion, the feat is only 9-A, but the explosion either vaporized 5 people or reduced them to ash.
If it vaporized them, that would be 0.069818*5 = 0.34909 Tons [8-C]
If it reduce them to ash, that would be 0.058137456*5 = 0.29068728 Tons [8-C]
Meruem stuff
So with the main AP feats/calcs that do not involve Meruem highlighted, here is what involves Meruem.
Whether Netero's Zero Hand, which Meruem tanked with injuries, constitutes vaporization or pulverization is a contentous issue.
This is a calc from ChaosTheory about Zero Hand with a High 7-C high-end, which DMUA is said to have approved. We should properly port it into our wiki's blog.
This is an unevaluated calc from LIFE_OF_KING, which gets Low 7-C with vaporization (would get 8-A with pulverization)
There is the issue of Poor Man's Rose, which has an unevaluated 7-B calc with melting.
And Meruem busting a hill with a Rage Blast can be calculated. Though getting the size of the hill would be a challenge as I don't recall any reference, so we might have to assume a size. A method that might be promising is to angsize Meruem's Rage Blast beam, since it visually shrinks when it got far away.
A random casual low tier feat is that Meruem blew up a big hole in the Chimera Ant's nest with a punch the Chapter 213.
We were too slow... HxH's speed scaling is dead
That doesn't mean we can't make up a substitute speed scaling!
That is if we can call whatever we have now 'scaling'. Characters are given Subsonic+ and Hypersonic+ ratings without any calcs. So I suggest we return to the starting line.
I'll list a bunch of speed feats and we'll see which ones are worth calculating (or searching for already existing calculations for it in world-wide web). Some of them might be useful for scaling but not calculating.
- Gon catches up from a distance to a man who fell from a tilted ship (Chapter 2)
- The Hunter Exam's examinees ran 80 kilometers in six hours (Chapter 7) In case you were wondering about their pace
- Hisoka throws his cards at the Man-faced Ape faster than he can react and at an other Man-faced Ape faster than he can run, with Satotz catching Hisoka's cards (Chapter 8)
- Kurapika deflects Hisoka's cards, which hit and killed several examinees (Chapter 8)
- Hisoka rushes in and slashes several examinees with his card faster than they can react (Chapter 8)
- Hisoka disappears from the panel just when Gon was about to hit him, and then reappears beside Gon faster than he can perceive (Chapter 8)
- Gon disappears from the panel by jumping to the ceiling in Netero's ball challenge (Chapter 13)
- Netero outspeeds Gon and Killua from a distance, just when they were about to catch the ball (Chapter 14)
- Killua slashes two men, seemingly multiple times, before they can notice (Chapter 14)
- Gon moving in front of Sedokan faster than he can notice in the candle challenge (Chapter 17) This feat seems to be forgotten about, and a calc will likely give beginning of series Gon his Subsonic rating proper
- Killua blitzes Johness the Dissector, moving to him and ripping his heart and moving behind him, before he can notice (Chapter 21)
- Killua was out of arms reach, but he managed to snatch one of the Amori brothers' badge from his pocket with no visible movement (Chapter 29)
- Hanzo appears beside Gon faster than he can perceive, while Gon was running away (Chapter 33)
- Gotoh repetedly tosses and catches a coin faster than a normal person can see, and throws it to a man behind Gon faster than a normal person can see (Chapter 43)
- Killua disappears when he is about to be hit by Zushi's punch and appears behind him (Chapter 45)
- Machi makes at least dozens of stitches to connect Hisoka's severed arms in a short time, mentioning that all tissues are sewn together implying she connected blood vessels and nerves (Chapter 55)
- Killua jumps high above faster than Riehlvelt can perceive (Chapter 59)
- Killua casually catches Riehlvelt's whips when he performs his Song of Defense technique, repeatedly swinging his whips faster than normal people can perceive and producing whipcracks (Chapter 59) It is of note that whipcracks in real life are produced due to the tip of the whip surpassing the speed of sound
- Gon creates afterimages to distract Hisoka (Chapter 61)
- Kurapika swings his chain multiple times to capture bullets fired at him within the chain's links (Chapter 68)
- Nobunaga spars with Franklin, and seems to react to Franklin's bullets from close range (Chapter 71)
- Shachmono reacts to Franklin's bullets, and expands his Black Children before the bullets reach him. Blaise and Ivlenkov appear to jump out of the way of the bullets, and managed to evade the hail of Nen bullets enough to escape the auction room (Chapter 73) I'd say that this is a great feat to get the speed of fodder Hunters from
- Uvogin catches a bullet fired from point-blank with his teeth (Chapter 75)
- Uvogin says that the Phantom Troupe are fast enough to cover their ears before the sound from his Nen-enhanced scream reaches them (Chapter 76)
- Kurapika disappears just when Uvogin was about to hit them faster than Uvogin can perceive, and then reappears behind Uvogin (Chapter 82)
- Killua repeatedly moves as a blur in an attempt to make Phinks lose sight of him (Chapter 90)
- Chrollo knocks out Neon with a chop to the back of her neck faster than normal people can perceive, and a security camera only captured a frame of Chrollo's arm blurring in its original position (Chapter 96)
- Feitan and Phinks blitz mafia members, cutting their head off or snapping their necks and appearing behind them, faster than they can perceive (Chapter 97)
- Kurapika rolls away from machinegun bullets after they have been fired and takes cover (Chapter 97)
- Kurapika can use his chain to capture people from across the street within 0.5 seconds (Chapter 110)
- Kurapika captured Chrollo from the reception desk within 0.2 to 0.3 seconds, though Chrollo's reaction was slowed by the sudden darkness from the lights going out (Chapter 114)
- Nobunaga biltzes Squala, moving to him and cutting his head off and moving behind him, faster than he can perceive (Chapter 112)
- Gon blitzes a Greed Island player, moving to him to snatch his card and move behind him, before the player can notice (Chapter 133)
- Killua blitzing the 288th Hunter Exam's examinees, knocking out 1488 person in a short time, though collecting their badges delayed him and made his overall time an hour and a half to finish badge collection (Chapter 148)
- Gon and Killua jump a distance that is noticeably further than 16 m faster than Tsezguerra can perceive (Chapter 160)
- Razor's devils repeatedly pass a dodgeball between them faster than Tsezguerra can perceive (Chapter 162)
- Gon, Killua, and Kite run far away from horses and their riders before they can notice (Chapter 190)
- Neferpitou launches themself at Gon, Killua, and Kite's location from a very long distance and cuts Kite's arm (Chapter 198) Chapter 259 states that Neferpitou's En tentacles is what reached Kite, and the tentacles can extend to 2 kilometers, so this distance can be used as the confirmed high-end. For a low-end we can measure the shorter tentacles
- Cheetu disappears just before bullets are about to hit him, and he rips the fingers of at least two officers and appears behind them faster than they can perceive (Chapter 218)
- Cheetu travels at a speed over 125 MPH or 55.88 m/s according to authorities (Chapter 218)
- Killua after removing Illumi's needle blitzes Rammot, moving to him and ripping his head and moving behind him, faster than he can perceive (Chapter 219) NGL's port of entry does a full-body scan using metal detector, x-ray, and ultrasound. They ban synthetic materials and implants, including surgical bolts, metal dentals fillings, and silicon prosthetics. So how did they not notice Illumi's needle lodged in Killua's head???
Uh oh, another plothole- Killua dodges Palm's knife just when it is about to touch him, disappearing and appearing nearby, faster than Palm can perceive (Chapter 220)
- Phantom Troupe members move fast enough to disappear from the panel (Chapter 225)
- Bonolenov's Jupiter is stated to move at the speed of sound (Chapter 227) The Chimera Ant with sharp teeth is slower than sound, so it seems that the speed of officer level Chimera Ants scale slower than sound
- Knuckle estimates that Cheetu travels at a speed of 100-110 MPH or 44.704-49.1744 m/s (Chapter 235)
- Killua making quick work of Leol's squad (Chapter 236)
- Killua dodges Ikalgo's flea air gun with help from his En when the flea bullet was 57 cm away (Chapter 237)
- Killua blitzes Ikalgo, apparing behind him and stabbing Ikalgo's host body's head faster than Ikalgo can perceive (Chapter 237)
- Killua grabs Ikalgo faster than he can perceive, when Ikalgo moved far away using his air gun (Chapter 238)
- Killua blitzes the Ortho siblings, cutting their heads faster than they can perceive (Chapter 240)
- Killua catches the Ortho siblings' dart with his Hatsu enhanced reflexes just when it materializes in his head and stabs him (Chapter 240) There is a statement that this requires light-speed reflexes, but this is obviously a hyperbole
- Neferpitou takes less than 0.1 seconds to attack after activating Terpsichora as stated, while being some distance away from Netero who is being attacked (Chapter 264)
- Netero finishes attacking Neferpitou with his bodhisattva hand between the time of activating Terpsichora and attacking (Chapter 264) Neferpitou was able to observe Netero's attack by compressing their awareness and internal sensation of time
- Netero at least 60 years before the Chimera Ant arc managed to punch faster than sound, and put his hands together in prayer and punching 10,000 times in less than an hour when the routine originally took him more than 18 hours, with each prayer+punch taking 5-6 seconds in the beginning (Chapter 265)
- Youpi finishes transforming his arm and smashing the stairway in 0.27 seconds (Chapter 267)
- Neferpitou falls from a height of around 100 meters in the air and around 500 meters away from the palace, and then launches themself back to the palace after falling to the ground, with their leg swelling to twice the size it did against Kite (Chapter 267) Neferpitou was high in the air when Dragon Dive hit the palace after 0.96 seconds, and Youpi destroyed the stairs at 3.28 seconds after feeling Neferpitou's En when they was still mid-air, and Neferpitou arrived at the Palace at 4.87 seconds. So maybe we can get a reasonable timeframe if we calculate and detract the time it takes for Neferpitou to fall to the ground, but the maximum is 1.59 seconds
- Gon and Killua arrived at the right wing of the palace and travelled across its hallway by 4.87 seconds from the invasion, noting that they were at the central stairway at 3.28 seconds from the invasion (Chapter 269)
- Killua uses his yo-yos to blow the heads of two Chimera Ants from a distance faster than they can react, he then rips their hearts and arms and appears behind them (Chapter 269)
- Gon managed to climb the stairs to the second floor of the right tower by 6.52 seconds from the invasion, after he travelled from the central tower from 3.28 seconds after the invasion (Chapter 269)
- Before Knuckle intervened, the fight between Youpi and Shoot occurred for just 10 seconds (Chapter 272)
- Knuckle outruns Youpi's Rage Blast (Chapter 278)
- Killua blitzes Youpi and disappears from his sight with Whirlwind (Chapter 281)
- Knuckle and Morel run away from Youpi's Rage Blast when they were very close to him when he was about to explode (Chapter 285)
- Youpi in Rage Incarnate form blitzes a Morel smoke clone from distance (Chapter 287)
- Youpi in Rage Incarnate form moves a distance behind Knuckle faster than he can perceive (Chapter 289)
- Meruem is faster than Netero except when Netero does his prayer motion and use the bodhisattva to attack (Chapter 292)
- Netero struck Meruem well over a thousand times with his bodhisattva in less than a minute (Chapter 297)
- Neferpitou was able to rush at Gon to decapitate him, but their instinct warned them that he'll be able to react (Chapter 300)
- Meruem needs 20 minutes to run from the site where he fought Netero to the palace according to Shaiapouf (Chapter 301)
- Meruem needs 5 minutes to fly with his wings from the site where he fought Netero to the palace according to Shaiapouf (Chapter 301) Youpi originally estimated 15 minutes, but Meruem flies faster than expected
- Killua using Speed of Lightning moves away from a Shaiapouf clone faster than he can perceive (Chapter 303)
- Killua using Speed of Lightning runs a distance away from Palm's position (Chapter 305)
- Adult Gon leaves the room faster than Neferpitou can perceive after they attacked with Terpsichora (Chapter 306)
- Adult Gon disappears just when Neferpitou was about to land a hit (Chapter 306)
- Killua rushes in and pushes Adult Gon away, after Neferpitou's corpse controlled by Terpsichora rushes at Gon to attack him from a much closer distance than where Killua is (Chapter 307)
- Meruem's En is stated to lit up the palace at the speed of a flash of light (Chapter 308)
- Meruem appears before Knuckle and Meleoron faster than they can perceive, and blitzes them when they are at snailspeed (Chapter 308)
- Welfin uses a truck for travel (Chapter 309) Previously Kite dismissed horses because it is faster to travel by running, and Gon told Neferpitou that they can travel to Peijin faster by running at Chapter 300
- Killua using Lightning Speed moved fast enough to disappear from Gotoh's, Canary's, and Amane's perception when they were surrounding him (Chapter 327)
- Hisoka reacts to Gotoh firing his coins with more power than a bullet. When Hisoka is about to get hit by the coins, he jumps and disappears faster than Gotoh can perceive, then repeatedly jumps between trees faster than Gotoh can follow (Chapter 327)
- Tsubone in bike mode with two riders surpass Killua's maximum Lightning Speed's travel speed while carrying someone (Chapter 328) Am I the only one who finds Nen users using Conjuration to transform their bodies into objects goofy and contrived?
- Killua using Lightning Speed can travel to a town 40 km away in under 10 minutes while crossing the woods instead of using the road (Chapter 328) Roughly 66.66 m/s or 149 MPH or 240 km/hr
- Illumi sticks needles in several people faster than they can react (Chapter 328)
- Ging and Pariston dodge fire from machineguns Muherr's henchmen conjured (Chapter 347)
- Ging performs twelve quick punches, and ports them using Leorio's ability for practically simultaneous remote punches (Chapter 347)
Travel speed appears to be significantly slower than combat and burst speed.
Gon/Killua keys and some misc. scaling
M3X suggested streamlining the keys.
Original: Key:Hunter Exam Arc | Zoldyck Family Arc/Heavens Arena Arc/Yorknew City Arc | Greed Island Arc | Chimera Ant Arc | Adult Gon Suggested: Key: Hunter Exam Arc to Zoldyck Family Arc | Heavens Arena Arc to Yorknew City Arc | Greed Island Arc to Beginning of Chimera Ants Arc | Chimera Ants Arc
I think it is beneficial to keep the Hunter Exam arc its own key for Gon, since Gon got the weight training in the Zoldyck arc which significantly raised his physical abilities. Though the suggested key works for Killua.
Though to play Devil's Advocate, Gon somehow managed to casually crush Illumi's arm with one hand in the Hunter Exam arc, even though Illumi supposedly got the weight training. Don't worry, Illumi got powercreeped later. Properly.
Also there are some potential multipliers. Ko is stated to gather 10 times the Aura in one spot than what usually exist:
Jajanken and Big Bang Impact are advanced applications of Ko which are even stronger. Feitan used Ko against transformed Zazan before his sword broke, so her transformed form would scale.
The databook gives character statistics. Should we consider this a reliable source for scaling?
Finally, I think that enraged/determined Gon should have a different rating than base Gon. So while the AP of base Gon wouldn't scale to Pitou and Netero, the AP of enraged Gon does.
Netero's Nen output puts him below Royal Guards:
[1]
[2]
[3]
Razor called determined Greed Island Gon a monster judging by his Aura:
[1]
[2]
And while Morel felt like being pricked by needles when exposed to Netero's Nen output, he was more overwhelmed by enraged Gon's Aura and was made to sweat. He is also able to kill Morel with Jajanken when it previously just knocked Knuckle out:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
Killua originally thinks that Neferpitou is going to fight them without using Nen, but dismisses this idea because enraged Gon has more powerful Aura than normal:
[1]
[2]
This suggest that enraged Gon is significantly more powerful than Killua in raw power.
And Pitou thinking that Gon is a threat to the king was something that was suspected even before Gon's transformation (and therefore before he sacrificed his potential for more power):
[1]
[2]
[3]
Hopefully-not-the-end.
If we can't even un-hiatus this thread, then there is no hope for the manga.
Discuss.
@Elizhaa @EmperorRorepme @Edwellken @MarvelFanatic119 @Mefre @CrimsonStarFallen @Liger686 @Damage3245 @VersusJunkie54 @Dragonmasterxyz @KingEzran @WHYNAUT @SpookyShadow @ChocomilkAlex @Js250476 @UchihaSlayer96 @Zencha9 @Insert_creative_name_here_12 @Ionliosite @LordTracer @Rikimarox2 @Problemexe
Would any of you be willing to help evaluate the above post please?
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Hello prospective Hunters; hope you are done playing Dragon Quest. Let's see if we can get this thread revived.
I'll start with some interesting trivia:
The known world is just a small part of a lake in a super planet; assuming the HxH world is not flat, how fast compared to our planet must the super planet spin to have a 24H day/night cycle? What explains the similarity in gravity, and if gravity different to ours is in effect does this play a role in why blimps are the main technology for air travel?
Which one of you actually reads the exposition chapters fully instead of skimming through?
And finally a reminder and a warning of the terrible power of PIS, retcons, and forced drama.
You can't stop a Hunter with a .22 caliber pistol; makes sense. But ten chapters later we learn that a high-tier Nen user like Kurapika can't remain unscathed against normal 9mm pistols even if he blocks by gathering lots of Aura on one spot with Gyo. Even the fodder Dalzollene can tank ten bullets without being injured!
Hope this was a decent appetizer for Hiatus x Hiatus verse revision. Now let's get to the meat of it (unless you are vegetarian, in which case you get meat substitutes).
So these are the main issues to be discussed for scaling most of the cast:
1- Youpi's Rage Blast crater
Based on M3X's calc of the crater Youpi made in chapter 278:
If we use vaporization we get Low 7-C.
If we use pulverization we get 8-B, and we will most likely discard this calc and upscale Youpi from a higher calc.
Damage calculated the crater as it is shown in chapter 279:
And got 7-C+ with vaporization, and 8-A with pulverization, though the calc is not evaluated yet.
Youpi has a statement that the people he fought have less than one tenth of his sheer strength, so this can potentially be used as a multiplier for downscaling others or upscaling Youpi. Though I'd say that Rage Blast doesn't necessarily scale to Youpi's base form.
The main argument for using vaporization is the existence of a very large amount of smoke which seems to move up.
But the prevalent opinion in the previous thread is to only use pulverization with Youpi's crater, with the existence of fragmented rocks near the crater being among the strongest evidence.
2- Bombardier Beetle
Killua's surface area was accounted for in a calc by M3X. The calcs the surface area were applied on a calc by LordUrien935 (Low 7-C), a calc by ChaosTheory (8-B one), and one by Cable's Calculations (Low 7-C).
The 8-B calc was reduced to High 8-C+ by the surface area, and this end was approved.
It doesn't make much sense scaling wise for the ant to make 8-A or Low 7-C, as it is a casual feat done by a fodder yet it is the most powerful feat up to that point in the manga. Though calculating it is tricky since the size of trees in the forest is wildly variable; there are normal sized trees and gigantic trees.
3- Hisoka survives Chrollo's bomb puppets
Calc by M3X, which yields 8-B with pulverization even before taking the fragmented area and people getting vaporized into account.
Though to provide my own criticism of the calc, it is mentioned that Hisoka was swarmed by 200 puppets which he used as a shield against the incoming bomb puppets, and that he suffocated while being buried under puppets.
So the assumption of the puppets being vaporized doesn't seem to match, and it is stated in the narrative that he didn't receive the full force of the explosion (technically multiple explosions, but the bomb puppets previously seemed to explode simultaneously in unison).
4- Silva punching Cheetu into a crater
Calc by M3X, which is around the 8-B range.
However Armor requested to make modification and use Silva as the reference for scaling instead, so I did it myself:
Silva's height is 1.98 m, and his height in the panel as I measured is 187 pixels
Crater diameter:
Half Ellipsoid volume: 43592157 cm^3
- Crater diameter: 442 px = 4.68 m
- Crater depth: 359 px = 3.80117647 m
Which is significantly less than the original calc. Even with 100% pulverization, which is most likely unreasonable, it only gets High 8-C.
5- Uvogin tanks an anti-tank super bazooka
Calc by M3X.
A casual feat that will be used as a supporting one.
By the size of the explosion, the feat is only 9-A, but the explosion either vaporized 5 people or reduced them to ash.
If it vaporized them, that would be 0.069818*5 = 0.34909 Tons [8-C]
If it reduce them to ash, that would be 0.058137456*5 = 0.29068728 Tons [8-C]
Meruem stuff
So with the main AP feats/calcs that do not involve Meruem highlighted, here is what involves Meruem.
Whether Netero's Zero Hand, which Meruem tanked with injuries, constitutes vaporization or pulverization is a contentous issue.
This is a calc from ChaosTheory about Zero Hand with a High 7-C high-end, which DMUA is said to have approved. We should properly port it into our wiki's blog.
This is an unevaluated calc from LIFE_OF_KING, which gets Low 7-C with vaporization (would get 8-A with pulverization)
There is the issue of Poor Man's Rose, which has an unevaluated 7-B calc with melting.
And Meruem busting a hill with a Rage Blast can be calculated. Though getting the size of the hill would be a challenge as I don't recall any reference, so we might have to assume a size. A method that might be promising is to angsize Meruem's Rage Blast beam, since it visually shrinks when it got far away.
A random casual low tier feat is that Meruem blew up a big hole in the Chimera Ant's nest with a punch the Chapter 213.
We were too slow... HxH's speed scaling is dead
That doesn't mean we can't make up a substitute speed scaling!
That is if we can call whatever we have now 'scaling'. Characters are given Subsonic+ and Hypersonic+ ratings without any calcs. So I suggest we return to the starting line.
I'll list a bunch of speed feats and we'll see which ones are worth calculating (or searching for already existing calculations for it in world-wide web). Some of them might be useful for scaling but not calculating.
- Gon catches up from a distance to a man who fell from a tilted ship (Chapter 2)
- The Hunter Exam's examinees ran 80 kilometers in six hours (Chapter 7) In case you were wondering about their pace
- Hisoka throws his cards at the Man-faced Ape faster than he can react and at an other Man-faced Ape faster than he can run, with Satotz catching Hisoka's cards (Chapter 8)
- Kurapika deflects Hisoka's cards, which hit and killed several examinees (Chapter 8)
- Hisoka rushes in and slashes several examinees with his card faster than they can react (Chapter 8)
- Hisoka disappears from the panel just when Gon was about to hit him, and then reappears beside Gon faster than he can perceive (Chapter 8)
- Gon disappears from the panel by jumping to the ceiling in Netero's ball challenge (Chapter 13)
- Netero outspeeds Gon and Killua from a distance, just when they were about to catch the ball (Chapter 14)
- Killua slashes two men, seemingly multiple times, before they can notice (Chapter 14)
- Gon moving in front of Sedokan faster than he can notice in the candle challenge (Chapter 17) This feat seems to be forgotten about, and a calc will likely give beginning of series Gon his Subsonic rating proper
- Killua blitzes Johness the Dissector, moving to him and ripping his heart and moving behind him, before he can notice (Chapter 21)
- Killua was out of arms reach, but he managed to snatch one of the Amori brothers' badge from his pocket with no visible movement (Chapter 29)
- Hanzo appears beside Gon faster than he can perceive, while Gon was running away (Chapter 33)
- Gotoh repetedly tosses and catches a coin faster than a normal person can see, and throws it to a man behind Gon faster than a normal person can see (Chapter 43)
- Killua disappears when he is about to be hit by Zushi's punch and appears behind him (Chapter 45)
- Machi makes at least dozens of stitches to connect Hisoka's severed arms in a short time, mentioning that all tissues are sewn together implying she connected blood vessels and nerves (Chapter 55)
- Killua jumps high above faster than Riehlvelt can perceive (Chapter 59)
- Killua casually catches Riehlvelt's whips when he performs his Song of Defense technique, repeatedly swinging his whips faster than normal people can perceive and producing whipcracks (Chapter 59) It is of note that whipcracks in real life are produced due to the tip of the whip surpassing the speed of sound
- Gon creates afterimages to distract Hisoka (Chapter 61)
- Kurapika swings his chain multiple times to capture bullets fired at him within the chain's links (Chapter 68)
- Nobunaga spars with Franklin, and seems to react to Franklin's bullets from close range (Chapter 71)
- Shachmono reacts to Franklin's bullets, and expands his Black Children before the bullets reach him. Blaise and Ivlenkov appear to jump out of the way of the bullets, and managed to evade the hail of Nen bullets enough to escape the auction room (Chapter 73) I'd say that this is a great feat to get the speed of fodder Hunters from
- Uvogin catches a bullet fired from point-blank with his teeth (Chapter 75)
- Uvogin says that the Phantom Troupe are fast enough to cover their ears before the sound from his Nen-enhanced scream reaches them (Chapter 76)
- Kurapika disappears just when Uvogin was about to hit them faster than Uvogin can perceive, and then reappears behind Uvogin (Chapter 82)
- Killua repeatedly moves as a blur in an attempt to make Phinks lose sight of him (Chapter 90)
- Chrollo knocks out Neon with a chop to the back of her neck faster than normal people can perceive, and a security camera only captured a frame of Chrollo's arm blurring in its original position (Chapter 96)
- Feitan and Phinks blitz mafia members, cutting their head off or snapping their necks and appearing behind them, faster than they can perceive (Chapter 97)
- Kurapika rolls away from machinegun bullets after they have been fired and takes cover (Chapter 97)
- Kurapika can use his chain to capture people from across the street within 0.5 seconds (Chapter 110)
- Kurapika captured Chrollo from the reception desk within 0.2 to 0.3 seconds, though Chrollo's reaction was slowed by the sudden darkness from the lights going out (Chapter 114)
- Nobunaga biltzes Squala, moving to him and cutting his head off and moving behind him, faster than he can perceive (Chapter 112)
- Gon blitzes a Greed Island player, moving to him to snatch his card and move behind him, before the player can notice (Chapter 133)
- Killua blitzing the 288th Hunter Exam's examinees, knocking out 1488 person in a short time, though collecting their badges delayed him and made his overall time an hour and a half to finish badge collection (Chapter 148)
- Gon and Killua jump a distance that is noticeably further than 16 m faster than Tsezguerra can perceive (Chapter 160)
- Razor's devils repeatedly pass a dodgeball between them faster than Tsezguerra can perceive (Chapter 162)
- Gon, Killua, and Kite run far away from horses and their riders before they can notice (Chapter 190)
- Neferpitou launches themself at Gon, Killua, and Kite's location from a very long distance and cuts Kite's arm (Chapter 198) Chapter 259 states that Neferpitou's En tentacles is what reached Kite, and the tentacles can extend to 2 kilometers, so this distance can be used as the confirmed high-end. For a low-end we can measure the shorter tentacles
- Cheetu disappears just before bullets are about to hit him, and he rips the fingers of at least two officers and appears behind them faster than they can perceive (Chapter 218)
- Cheetu travels at a speed over 125 MPH or 55.88 m/s according to authorities (Chapter 218)
- Killua after removing Illumi's needle blitzes Rammot, moving to him and ripping his head and moving behind him, faster than he can perceive (Chapter 219) NGL's port of entry does a full-body scan using metal detector, x-ray, and ultrasound. They ban synthetic materials and implants, including surgical bolts, metal dentals fillings, and silicon prosthetics. So how did they not notice Illumi's needle lodged in Killua's head???
Uh oh, another plothole- Killua dodges Palm's knife just when it is about to touch him, disappearing and appearing nearby, faster than Palm can perceive (Chapter 220)
- Phantom Troupe members move fast enough to disappear from the panel (Chapter 225)
- Bonolenov's Jupiter is stated to move at the speed of sound (Chapter 227) The Chimera Ant with sharp teeth is slower than sound, so it seems that the speed of officer level Chimera Ants scale slower than sound
- Knuckle estimates that Cheetu travels at a speed of 100-110 MPH or 44.704-49.1744 m/s (Chapter 235)
- Killua making quick work of Leol's squad (Chapter 236)
- Killua dodges Ikalgo's flea air gun with help from his En when the flea bullet was 57 cm away (Chapter 237)
- Killua blitzes Ikalgo, apparing behind him and stabbing Ikalgo's host body's head faster than Ikalgo can perceive (Chapter 237)
- Killua grabs Ikalgo faster than he can perceive, when Ikalgo moved far away using his air gun (Chapter 238)
- Killua blitzes the Ortho siblings, cutting their heads faster than they can perceive (Chapter 240)
- Killua catches the Ortho siblings' dart with his Hatsu enhanced reflexes just when it materializes in his head and stabs him (Chapter 240) There is a statement that this requires light-speed reflexes, but this is obviously a hyperbole
- Neferpitou takes less than 0.1 seconds to attack after activating Terpsichora as stated, while being some distance away from Netero who is being attacked (Chapter 264)
- Netero finishes attacking Neferpitou with his bodhisattva hand between the time of activating Terpsichora and attacking (Chapter 264) Neferpitou was able to observe Netero's attack by compressing their awareness and internal sensation of time
- Netero at least 60 years before the Chimera Ant arc managed to punch faster than sound, and put his hands together in prayer and punching 10,000 times in less than an hour when the routine originally took him more than 18 hours, with each prayer+punch taking 5-6 seconds in the beginning (Chapter 265)
- Youpi finishes transforming his arm and smashing the stairway in 0.27 seconds (Chapter 267)
- Neferpitou falls from a height of around 100 meters in the air and around 500 meters away from the palace, and then launches themself back to the palace after falling to the ground, with their leg swelling to twice the size it did against Kite (Chapter 267) Neferpitou was high in the air when Dragon Dive hit the palace after 0.96 seconds, and Youpi destroyed the stairs at 3.28 seconds after feeling Neferpitou's En when they was still mid-air, and Neferpitou arrived at the Palace at 4.87 seconds. So maybe we can get a reasonable timeframe if we calculate and detract the time it takes for Neferpitou to fall to the ground, but the maximum is 1.59 seconds
- Gon and Killua arrived at the right wing of the palace and travelled across its hallway by 4.87 seconds from the invasion, noting that they were at the central stairway at 3.28 seconds from the invasion (Chapter 269)
- Killua uses his yo-yos to blow the heads of two Chimera Ants from a distance faster than they can react, he then rips their hearts and arms and appears behind them (Chapter 269)
- Gon managed to climb the stairs to the second floor of the right tower by 6.52 seconds from the invasion, after he travelled from the central tower from 3.28 seconds after the invasion (Chapter 269)
- Before Knuckle intervened, the fight between Youpi and Shoot occurred for just 10 seconds (Chapter 272)
- Knuckle outruns Youpi's Rage Blast (Chapter 278)
- Killua blitzes Youpi and disappears from his sight with Whirlwind (Chapter 281)
- Knuckle and Morel run away from Youpi's Rage Blast when they were very close to him when he was about to explode (Chapter 285)
- Youpi in Rage Incarnate form blitzes a Morel smoke clone from distance (Chapter 287)
- Youpi in Rage Incarnate form moves a distance behind Knuckle faster than he can perceive (Chapter 289)
- Meruem is faster than Netero except when Netero does his prayer motion and use the bodhisattva to attack (Chapter 292)
- Netero struck Meruem well over a thousand times with his bodhisattva in less than a minute (Chapter 297)
- Neferpitou was able to rush at Gon to decapitate him, but their instinct warned them that he'll be able to react (Chapter 300)
- Meruem needs 20 minutes to run from the site where he fought Netero to the palace according to Shaiapouf (Chapter 301)
- Meruem needs 5 minutes to fly with his wings from the site where he fought Netero to the palace according to Shaiapouf (Chapter 301) Youpi originally estimated 15 minutes, but Meruem flies faster than expected
- Killua using Speed of Lightning moves away from a Shaiapouf clone faster than he can perceive (Chapter 303)
- Killua using Speed of Lightning runs a distance away from Palm's position (Chapter 305)
- Adult Gon leaves the room faster than Neferpitou can perceive after they attacked with Terpsichora (Chapter 306)
- Adult Gon disappears just when Neferpitou was about to land a hit (Chapter 306)
- Killua rushes in and pushes Adult Gon away, after Neferpitou's corpse controlled by Terpsichora rushes at Gon to attack him from a much closer distance than where Killua is (Chapter 307)
- Meruem's En is stated to lit up the palace at the speed of a flash of light (Chapter 308)
- Meruem appears before Knuckle and Meleoron faster than they can perceive, and blitzes them when they are at snailspeed (Chapter 308)
- Welfin uses a truck for travel (Chapter 309) Previously Kite dismissed horses because it is faster to travel by running, and Gon told Neferpitou that they can travel to Peijin faster by running at Chapter 300
- Killua using Lightning Speed moved fast enough to disappear from Gotoh's, Canary's, and Amane's perception when they were surrounding him (Chapter 327)
- Hisoka reacts to Gotoh firing his coins with more power than a bullet. When Hisoka is about to get hit by the coins, he jumps and disappears faster than Gotoh can perceive, then repeatedly jumps between trees faster than Gotoh can follow (Chapter 327)
- Tsubone in bike mode with two riders surpass Killua's maximum Lightning Speed's travel speed while carrying someone (Chapter 328) Am I the only one who finds Nen users using Conjuration to transform their bodies into objects goofy and contrived?
- Killua using Lightning Speed can travel to a town 40 km away in under 10 minutes while crossing the woods instead of using the road (Chapter 328) Roughly 66.66 m/s or 149 MPH or 240 km/hr
- Illumi sticks needles in several people faster than they can react (Chapter 328)
- Ging and Pariston dodge fire from machineguns Muherr's henchmen conjured (Chapter 347)
- Ging performs twelve quick punches, and ports them using Leorio's ability for practically simultaneous remote punches (Chapter 347)
Travel speed appears to be significantly slower than combat and burst speed.
Gon/Killua keys and some misc. scaling
M3X suggested streamlining the keys.
Original: Key:Hunter Exam Arc | Zoldyck Family Arc/Heavens Arena Arc/Yorknew City Arc | Greed Island Arc | Chimera Ant Arc | Adult Gon Suggested: Key: Hunter Exam Arc to Zoldyck Family Arc | Heavens Arena Arc to Yorknew City Arc | Greed Island Arc to Beginning of Chimera Ants Arc | Chimera Ants Arc
I think it is beneficial to keep the Hunter Exam arc its own key for Gon, since Gon got the weight training in the Zoldyck arc which significantly raised his physical abilities. Though the suggested key works for Killua.
Though to play Devil's Advocate, Gon somehow managed to casually crush Illumi's arm with one hand in the Hunter Exam arc, even though Illumi supposedly got the weight training. Don't worry, Illumi got powercreeped later. Properly.
Also there are some potential multipliers. Ko is stated to gather 10 times the Aura in one spot than what usually exist:
Jajanken and Big Bang Impact are advanced applications of Ko which are even stronger. Feitan used Ko against transformed Zazan before his sword broke, so her transformed form would scale.
The databook gives character statistics. Should we consider this a reliable source for scaling?
Finally, I think that enraged/determined Gon should have a different rating than base Gon. So while the AP of base Gon wouldn't scale to Pitou and Netero, the AP of enraged Gon does.
Netero's Nen output puts him below Royal Guards:
[1]
[2]
[3]
Razor called determined Greed Island Gon a monster judging by his Aura:
[1]
[2]
And while Morel felt like being pricked by needles when exposed to Netero's Nen output, he was more overwhelmed by enraged Gon's Aura and was made to sweat. He is also able to kill Morel with Jajanken when it previously just knocked Knuckle out:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
Killua originally thinks that Neferpitou is going to fight them without using Nen, but dismisses this idea because enraged Gon has more powerful Aura than normal:
[1]
[2]
This suggest that enraged Gon is significantly more powerful than Killua in raw power.
And Pitou thinking that Gon is a threat to the king was something that was suspected even before Gon's transformation (and therefore before he sacrificed his potential for more power):
[1]
[2]
[3]
Hopefully-not-the-end.
If we can't even un-hiatus this thread, then there is no hope for the manga.
Discuss.
I think Pulverisation makes sense on Youpi’s explosion calc. I don’t think Menthuthuyoupi’s statement could be used for downscaling as it’s too vague. Are the extermination team an 11th of his strength? 12th or maybe even less. At best we could use it to upscale Youpi but it’d be an at least rating
I don’t have a problem with any of the calcs proposed so far.
I agree with Armor that we should leave the speed scaling aside for now until we can establish AP ratings for all the other characters.
I also agree with Shadow’s ideas for Gon and Killua’s keys. Enraged Gon is notably more powerful than normal Gon and even has a different mindset so it should have its own key.
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