Hunter vs Shalltear Bloodfallen

[Mr. Bambu]

No, I'm saying Shalltear is because that was stated above, status effects are still on her when she gets rez'd, regardless of how good Ainz' abilities are.

 

[Jugger47]

No, I'm saying Shalltear is because that was stated above, status effects are still on her when she gets rez'd, regardless of how good Ainz' abilities are.

You keep saying that but you are making no attempt to explain why? Also Ainz abilites? Im asking why you are saying status effects are still on a person after they come back from the dead. Dragon Element I mean.

 

[OpMasada]

No, I'm saying Shalltear is because that was stated above, status effects are still on her when she gets rez'd, regardless of how good Ainz' abilities are.

You keep saying that but you are making no attempt to explain why? Also Ainz abilites?
Im asking why you are saying status effects are still on a person after they come back from the dead. Dragon Element I mean.

It's like you are literally ignoring what others say now. Read my post that you replied to.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

^

 

[OpMasada]

Please, just get the quote if you can find it, i'm actually starting to suffer from a headache

 

[Jugger47]

I'm willing to say Shalltears self revive doesn't negate status effects that carry over after death, since I admitely cannot find it right now.

But none of you have yet to prove or even explain why you are saying that dragon element carries over after death. I don't play the games so I am asking.

That is why I asked the question

"You are saying that if a player/monster dies in MH under the dragon effect they are still effected even if they were revived? Or something similar?"

Whats there to even negate if nothing is there after death anyways?

If any you did explain why it does I apologize as either it happened before I came here or I missed it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wait. Why does it need to carry over after death if it already carries over self revive?

 

[OpMasada]

>Comment

dragon element carries over death because you have no proof that shalltear's res negates status effects. Fact that she was still affected by the WCI after her auto-res is where you should start the counterargument.

You have no proof WCIs inherently carry over death, the resurrection operated by Ainz disproves that.

 

[Jugger47]

Wait. Why does it need to carry over after death if it already carries over self revive?

Well. I mean I consider both the same thing right? I mean you need to die to be revived. There seems to be alot of confusion going on. Im asking you why you guys are saying dragon element carries over after self-revive/ death after resurrection

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because her self revive has been shown to not neg status effects before. That is why.

 

[Jugger47]

>Comment
dragon element carries over death because you have no proof that shalltear's res negates status effects. Fact that she was still affected by the WCI after her auto-res is where you should start the counterargument.

Ok that is flawed logic. If a spell/ability has an effect that carries after death than yes. Shalltear will not be able to get rid of it after her resurrection. (as far as I know)

But if said spell/ability doesn't carry over after death in the first place than there is nothing to negate when she is revived.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...

You're displaying a flaw in homegirl's resurrection as a need for proof from the other side.

Her resurrection does not auto-neg status effects. Ergo this is not auto-negged.

 

[OpMasada]

A flawed logic as flawed as you saying hunter can't null because she never null an item with a specific ability that she already nulled.

Shalltear's item resses her immedietely after "death", but she wasn't cured from her effects, you still have no proof that the res negates status effects? You have no proof that WCI exists even after res?

 

[Jugger47]

Because her self revive has been shown to not neg status effects before. That is why.

Haha I see now.

No that is unacceptable logic. I thought that maybe you guys were saying that Dragon element is known to carry on after death (like a mechanic were if a player is ressurected they are still under its effect) which I would have conceded.

But now you guys are completely coming up with flawed logic.

No guys, I can die in Warframe while on fire. When I come back I don't expect to still be set ablaze because I have just have already died and came back to life.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah. In Warframe you just respawn. This is a specific weakness in her resurrection, statuses are still active on her once she comes back. False comparison, my guy.

 

[Jugger47]

...
You're displaying a flaw in homegirl's resurrection as a need for proof from the other side.

Her resurrection does not auto-neg status effects. Ergo this is not auto-negged.

I cannot even tell if you both are being serious anymore.

If a power/ability is not shown to carry after death in the first place then you cannot expect it to carry over.

If a power/ability does carry over innately then, yes, shalltear does not get rid of it after death.

The fact remains that shalltear has to actually DIE to revive. So the status MUST cross over after death.

That is completely ridiculous logic to me and unless you give me some proof that Dragon Element does indeed carry over after death or resurrection I won't concede this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Except abilities already inflicted on Shalltear are inherently shown to carry over to her, that's her weakness. That's something you agreed to above.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Back for some input: Shalltear didn't get freed from her status from the WCI, but she did after she was resurrected by other means than her item, so it can be assumed that Shalltear's res doesn't negate status effects.

Oh yes thats right but still Ainz has stated that if he died after casting Time Stop I think? His spell would still be in effect and if he was under a spells status effect if he was revived with his ring which is self resurection.

This. You say "Oh yeah that's right" to the fact that Shalltear's status effects not getting nulled upon resurrecting. That is a weakness that comes into play. Her own self rez does not negate statuses, but other rez does.

 

[Jugger47]

Except abilities already inflicted on Shalltear are inherently shown to carry over to her, that's her weakness. That's something you agreed to above.

I just stated

The fact remains that shalltear has to actually DIE to revive. So the status MUST cross over after death.

 

[Akreious]

"Yeah. In Warframe you just respawn. This is a specific weakness in her resurrection, statuses are still active on her once she comes back. False comparison, my guy."

Actually no. Resurrection in Overlord resets your character like any other respawn in videogames. The only reason why there Shalltear was still under control once she was revived is because she was controlled by a World Class Item, an item that specifically bypasses any resistances or attempts to break it's control unless specifically done by another World Class Item made to counter it. It was never a weakness of Shalltear's resurrection, it's merely an example of the item that affected her. She was only fine when revived by Ainz because the original caster already died of her injuries, and even then there was doubt if she even was okay at that point. Plus it's clear that resurrection via paying money and resurrection via items are different things, since Shalltear revived with none of her items equipped nor had any knowledge of what happened.

Tell me any other instance of it being a weakness in her resurrection. No, her skills do not count. They're on a specific timer that carries on and will only go away once the allotted timeframe is done, or else people would just spam their abilities, die, come back and spam them some more to get unfair kills against opponents who legitimately won.

 

[OpMasada]

...
You're displaying a flaw in homegirl's resurrection as a need for proof from the other side.

Her resurrection does not auto-neg status effects. Ergo this is not auto-negged.

I cannot even tell if you both are being serious anymore.
If a power/ability is not shown to carry after death in the first place then you cannot expect it to carry over.

If a power/ability does carry over innately then, yes, shalltear does not get rid of it after death.

The fact remains that shalltear has to actually DIE to revive. So the status MUST cross over after death.

That is completely ridiculous logic to me and unless you give me some proof that Dragon Element does indeed carry over after death or resurrection I won't concede this.

Still waiting on you for that proof that WCI carries over death, buddy.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

See my last comment. This is getting to the point of just flat out ignoring the parameters of abilities and placing unneeded ones on Hunter's in order to make Shalltear win.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Akre We've proven that it is incorrect that Overlord rez auto-negs statuses, please read the thread.

 

[Akreious]

No, no we have not. You yourself have come to that fact while everyone else argues otherwise. Well, maybe except OpMasada.

"In the form of a dress, this World item allows the user to subjugate the mind of any creature, even those that possess racial immunity to mind-control. For instance, it can effectively bypass the undead's resistance without problem.

Although it is considered to be an impressive artifact, the Six Cardinals acknowledge on the fact that this item does have its own limits. In this case, the item is only capable of charming one target at a time. As Shalltear is under mind-control, she can be left in an immobile state even if the user is no longer conscious or around to command her. For that reason, the power it has over the target will continue to remain in effect.

Still, the target under that item's effect will attack whoever approach it by close proximity. In order to break free from this item's control, the brainwashed target must be killed and later resurrected. According to the Six Cardinals, it doesn't seem to work on the Platinum Dragon Lord, a user of Wild Magic."

So no. The only reason why Shalltear was okay after being revived by Ainz is because that's how you directly counter the World Class item. If the being proper is revived immediately after by an equipped item (And therefore, revived themselves) then the WCI's effect is still operating.

 

[OpMasada]

"Yeah. In Warframe you just respawn. This is a specific weakness in her resurrection, statuses are still active on her once she comes back. False comparison, my guy."
Actually no. Resurrection in Overlord resets your character like any other respawn in videogames. The only reason why there Shalltear was still under control once she was revived is because she was controlled by a World Class Item, an item that specifically bypasses any resistances or attempts to break it's control unless specifically done by another World Class Item made to counter it. It was never a weakness of Shalltear's resurrection, it's merely an example of the item that affected her. She was only fine when revived by Ainz because the original caster already died of her injuries, and even then there was doubt if she even was okay at that point. Plus it's clear that resurrection via paying money and resurrection via items are different things, since Shalltear revived with none of her items equipped nor had any knowledge of what happened.

Tell me any other instance of it being a weakness in her resurrection. No, her skills do not count. They're on a specific timer that carries on and will only go away once the allotted timeframe is done, or else people would just spam their abilities, die, come back and spam them some more to get unfair kills against opponents who legitimately won.

You have no proof WCI carries over death, "she was only fine when ainz revived her because the caster died"? Where's the proof that the caster died immedietly after ainz had killed her for the second time?

>It's clear because shallter revived with no items

Uh no, she was already looted of her items as, like in yggdrasil, you drop items when you die, now that I think about it, shalltear hadn't even dropped her items after she res did she?

The only difference I can think of is that you pay with money and that it resets your time a bit.

 

[Jugger47]

Still waiting on you for that proof that WCI carries over death, buddy

"Oh yes thats right"- To you about the WCI

"Was it? Hm I'll need to remember that. Its not applicable here though." - to Yobobojojo about the WCI Tier

You are waiting on a comment I already gave

This is all in regards to shalltear self revive after death though.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

> Mind stuff is not related in any way

Okay.

> Different set of rules for different things

Okay.

Literally no effect on the fact that Jugger said "that's right" to a point Op brought up, that self rez doesn't neg statuses. This is another event that isn't in question.

 

[Akreious]

Oh and before you say "Still does not prove that the WCI is the one that carries over after death",

"Longinus: It has the power to completely remove any target from existence at the expense of the user's own existence. There was no way to restore the data of anyone deleted by the World Item, other than by using the resurrection powers of other World Items; neither cash items or resurrection spells would work. If someone were to use it on an NPC of Nazarick, it would even reduce the maximum creatable levels of NPCs — the special feature of a guild's homebase."

This item literally deletes the target's Data. Not kill, not lock away, flat out delete. The only way to get this back is by another item that specifically restores the target data.

This is the scope of power we're talking about here in the case of WCI. It's been done before, and it's very very OP. Compared to Longinus actually, the Downfall of Castle and Country is weak! That's the scope.

So no, the fact that WCI has a flat out history of effects carrying on after death (In this case, removing the very data of the target in question) just puts more suspicion on your claims.

As most game mechanics follow over too, we have to treat the Overlord verse as a sort of "Game" as well. And as we all know, respawning resets your statuses no matter what. It's you who's claiming that Overlord, despite being a game setting with game rules, that their resurrection is somehow weaker.

you have to prove that the respawning is weaker than in other verses. Unless you mean to tell me that in Overlord, a High-Level player can inflict level 20 Poison on a level 5 noob that lasts for 5 minutes so the noob just dies over and over when they try to respawn for 5 minutes.

Remember that effects and stuff are only expected to get OP at around the level 70-ish mark where you get Divine Items and even World Class Items. If a Level 20 can punk a level 1 with status effects that carry over, it's your job to source information that status effects carry over. Otherwise, we're considering Overlord's respawning or resurrection to be just like any other verse.

 

[Jugger47]

Literally no effect on the fact that Jugger said "that's right" to a point Op brought up, that self rez doesn't neg statuses. This is another event that isn't in question.

I agree with that first point but I said already but Ill say it again.

The fact remains that shalltear has to actually DIE to revive. So the status MUST cross over after death.

There is nothing to negate if an status doesn't cross over after death in the first place. It would be one thing if the item sacrificed itself in place of shalltears life which would mean she didn't die but was saved, but she mentioned that she saw death to Ainz so she did in fact die and come back.

 

[OpMasada]

Still waiting on you for that proof that WCI carries over death, buddy

"Oh yes thats right"- To you about the WCI
"Was it? Hm I'll need to remember that. Its not applicable here though." - to Yobobojojo about the WCI

You are waiting on a comment I already gave

This is all in regards to shalltear self revive after death though.

Blatantly ignoring the question. That comment has no relation to you proving WCI carries over res whatsoever.

@Akreious One of the twenty? Something that is explicitly described as existence erasure and stronger than most other WCIs?

What's your counterargument supposed to be about? Their strong so that means it has whatever ability you say it does? Doesn't work that way.

 

[Jugger47]

Blatantly ignoring the question. That comment has no relation to you proving WCI carries over res whatsoever.

OpMasada.....

I had already said that, yes the mind control that effected Shalltear obviously went away after she died and was resurrected through Nazarick gold.

Which is the entire point of me referencing what I just said.

 

[OpMasada]

@Akreious Did you also just discredit your own argument?

Well thanks for proving her res carries over status effects then.

 

[Jugger47]

Well thanks for proving her res carries over status effects then.

Ok? Dragon Element is comparable to WCI effects to you then?

What the.

 

[OpMasada]

Blatantly ignoring the question. That comment has no relation to you proving WCI carries over res whatsoever.

OpMasada.....
I had already said that, yes the mind control that effected Shalltear obviously went away after she died and was resurrected through Nazarick gold.

Which is the entire point of me referencing what I just said.

So you concede on the fact shalltear's auto-res can't negate status effects?

>Dragon Element comparable to WCI

Stop trying to twist shit. Akreious literally gave proof that the story said a WCI would get nulled over resurrection.

 

[Akreious]

"Blatantly ignoring the question. That comment has no relation to you proving WCI carries over res whatsoever.

@Akreious One of the twenty? Something that is explicitly described as existence erasure and stronger than most other WCIs?

What's your counterargument supposed to be about? Their strong so that means it has whatever ability you say it does? Doesn't work that way."

The effects of Downfall of Castle and Country specifically state that the target must be killed and revived later for it's effect to disappear. Emphasis on later, as that'd mean reviving instantly like with Shalltear (Also confirmed as she only saw a glimpse of death, implying a small time frame).

I'm not sure what else you're basing your argument on, other than "You're wrong because we have one instance of an overpowered item doing it, it must mean all effects must do it too!"

Edit: Okay OpMasada, are you like... just going to ignore the rest of the comment? Most of my reply was based on general status effects. Being killed and revived later is the effect of The Downfall of Castle and Country. I didn't discredit my own argument at all. Please at least read through my arguments properly before saying things like that.

 

[Jugger47]

Oh my, this thread is pretty much destroyed at this point. There is no real value in continuing this debate any longer.

We now have Dragon Element being compared to the effects WCI...

Confusion of ones already past admissions.....in the same thread no less...

NLF of insane porportions....

Verse equalization taken to the extreme...

No thank you, I am gone. No hard feelings here though.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm just gonna wait on this tbh. You guys have already admitted to a weakness and are scrambling to point out why it doesn't apply.

So. I'll wait.

 

[OpMasada]

"Blatantly ignoring the question. That comment has no relation to you proving WCI carries over res whatsoever.
@Akreious One of the twenty? Something that is explicitly described as existence erasure and stronger than most other WCIs?

What's your counterargument supposed to be about? Their strong so that means it has whatever ability you say it does? Doesn't work that way."

The effects of Downfall of Castle and Country specifically state that the target must be killed and revived later for it's effect to disappear. Emphasis on later, as that'd mean reviving instantly like with Shalltear (Also confirmed as she only saw a glimpse of death, implying a small time frame).

I'm not sure what else you're basing your argument on, other than "You're wrong because we have one instance of an overpowered item doing it, it must mean all effects must do it too!"

Edit: Okay OpMasada, are you like... just going to ignore the rest of the comment? Most of my reply was based on general status effects. Being killed and revived later is the effect of The Downfall of Castle and Country. I didn't discredit my own argument at all. Please at least read through my arguments properly before saying things like that.

If you are going to use the word "Later" as your evidence for the wci effect, fine with that. We'll just agree to disagree. I admit I didn't read through your entire argument, as the debate kept moving everytime I refreshed, I decided it would be better for me to read over this stuff later.

@Jugger I really can't take you seriously.

 

[Akreious]

"In the game lore of YGGDRASIL, the World Tree was once covered with a countless number of leaves, but one day a gigantic monster appeared and devoured these leaves. The leaves were destroyed one by one, until only nine were left, making the Nine Worlds of YGGDRASIL. These World Items are said to be made from remnants of those leaves, each equivalent to a world in power. The monster that devoured the original leaves would attack the remaining realms for these items. They were integral to the background story of the game: Players would step out into the unknown and face dangers in order to protect their own world."

Please, do not compare the Dragon Element to World Class Items. World Class Items are literal remains of entire worlds, and using them is more akin to warping reality rather than spells (Which make sense as spells CAN warp reality, but not on the level of literal worlds themselves).

Even if I conceed to you that status effects follow over after death, the only known instances of this was done via reality warping. Give me instances of the Dragon element warping reality in this case.

Edit: "If you are going to use the word "Later" as your evidence for the wci effect, fine with that. We'll just agree to disagree. I admit I didn't read through your entire argument, as the debate kept moving everytime I refreshed, I decided it would be better for me to read over this stuff later.

@Jugger I really can't take you seriously."

Fair enough.

"I'm just gonna wait on this tbh. You guys have already admitted to a weakness and are scrambling to point out why it doesn't apply.

So. I'll wait. "

Ignore all my arguments why dont'cha...

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

This is why i didn't want to make Overlord match,this thread goes mess than i expected.