Humanity vs It's Greatest Invention (Composite Human vs Amik) (GRACE)

[ThePrimalHunter]

Story:
Downtown Louisville, Kentucky, 2046. Amik and his friends have been hiding out in an abandoned building. Amik was out searching for supplies for Carla so she could fix her mini-EMP. Disguising himself as a human, Amik went looking for parts downtown. That's when Carla would call Amik using their makeshift burner phones

Carla: So Amik, I have good news and bad news. Good news, Lieutenant Mendoza is finally off of our asses. He's been taken off of the case.

Amik: ******* finally. That's a relief to hear. What about the bad news?

Carla: Uhhhmmm, so instead, the military hired some assassin to get you instead. And from the looks of it, it's just the one guy. No police, no military convoy with him, just the one dude.

Amik: How... how is this bad news? Instead of an entire police force, we just have to deal with one random guy. They just made this far easier for us. They put the game on easy mode, as you'd say.

Carla: The military wouldn't send just one person unless they knew this dude could do this solo. This guy is shrouded in mystery, I couldn't find anything on the guy, I don't even know his name. All I have is a photo which I just sent you.

Amik: Okay, so what's the plan on killing him?

Carla: Amik, listen, I've tapped into some of the calls the captains are having. This guy seems dangerous. He's strong, smart, skilled, armed, the captains are fully confident he can take you down, and those guys know what you can do. I think you should just try to get back without alerting anyone. We can wait them out. Lie low for a bit. We mig...

Amik: We can't. If this guy is as smart and dangerous as you say, they'll find us. This guy's only flesh & blood, and he can't do what I can do. The best way to get rid of this problem is to eliminate him. Do you know where he is right now?

Carla: One sec... he's roughly... a one minute walk away from you.

Amik: ... Shit.

Composite Human vs Amik

Ground Rules:

• Speed is Equal
• Fight takes place in a 2046 Downtown Louisville
• CH has an i48 Military-Grade Assult Rifle (3 clips of ammo) and a Military Control Shield
• CH has prior knowledge of Amik & 10 minutes of prep
• Amik has an MI Hand Cannon (5 clips of ammo)
• Amik has the knowledge Carla gave him & 1 minute of prep
• Both start 80m away from each other and know the general direction of their opponent, but have no line of sight
• CH will attempt to bring Amik in alive, though he will kill if needed
• Amik is going for the kill

Battle Music (Get it? Because Composite Human is an amalgomation of all humans and Amik's whole arc is him learning how to be human? I know, I'm a genius. So what if it's a mid selection for a battle song, it still works)

Who Wins?

The Best Of Humanity: 1 (Rayfire)
The Best Of Humanity's Inventions: 4 (Primal, Chanimate, Volt12121, Javenplaz253)
Inconclusive: 0 ()

 

[Rayfire]

Dang, you went all out on the story. I should prolly do this for my matches

It’s said that amik’s ESI can be tricked, as long as you have a high enough intelligence and know how it works, and since CH knows everything about amik, I don’t think they’d have any problem doing that, though I think that hinges on how exactly you can do that, which should be considered if CH only has a gun and a shield

Composite human also has something similair of his own, which would be ESP, a good example of which is shown here with sheer intuition alone. Since CH has prior knowledge, I’m sure they’d have no problem even if amik attempts to take them by surprise or outsmart them. CH is pretty screwed in everything except skill if it comes down to a fist fight, but once again it’s doubtful that they’d let that happen, especially with equalised speed

So, basically, CH will likely keep his distance, and see amik coming if he tries to outsmart or sneak attack him through intuition alone, and attempt to blast em to bits with perfect marksmanship. How would amik deal with dis?

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

It’s said that amik’s ESI can be tricked, as long as you have a high enough intelligence and know how it works, and since CH knows everything about amik, I don’t think they’d have any problem doing that, though I think that hinges on how exactly you can do that, which should be considered if CH only has a gun and a shield

I should probably explain how ESI works and how Amik managed to trick the Type 5's ESI

So pretty much, ESI predicts how someone will react to a combat situation by taking all of the information known about them and the android predicts what they are most likely to do next through mental calculations and probability equations. They then proceed to calculate the best way to counter said response, how the other person will respond, the chances of it working, and they proceed to execute it. Think Connor's precog from D:BH but on enough steroids to kill an elephant.

Amik could counter it because the calculations the android makes rely on the already scanned info on how the person reacts and fights. So Amik started the fight with simple martial arts, basic jabs, ect. Once the AMIKA was used to that fighting style and could predict it with 100% accuracy, Amik then switched to a grappling fighting style, completely throwing the ESI state off, as he was not at all doing what it had predicted and was completely different. Once it adjusted to that, Amik would do hit and run tactics. Then he'd start just throwing stuff, ect. He eventually got it to the point of where the AMIKA had so much different types of information and input it couldn't accurately predict what Amik was doing, making it completely useless. From there Amik did enough damage to the AMIKA that it couldn't properly fight back and he won.

The problem is, CH will have a hard time doing this with just a gun. It's kind of hard to throw something like that off with just "shoot" and then "shoot again, but differently", and obviously CH isn't winning hand-to-hand with how big the AP gap is

So, basically, CH will likely keep his distance, and see amik coming if he tries to outsmart or sneak attack him through intuition alone, and attempt to blast em to bits with perfect marksmanship. How would amik deal with dis?

Amik would likely just try to find out CH's skills, how he will likely react, and just gain general information to use when he enters ESI. From there, he'll just spam precog until he eventually manages to gun the human down and ensure a victory

 

[Rayfire]

I see. Well, Amik doesn't have any decent knowledge on Composite Human, since carla basically just went "Yo, kowalski, who's that guy rising out of the water?" (Detecting CH as a threat) and nothin' else. Meanwhile, CH has got all the knowledge he needs on amik, so their ESP should definitely factor in, at least until ESI can predict all of CH's movements if the fight goes on long enough.

That said, since CH should know what ESI is, they can probably just come up with multiple strategies with the prep time they get, which could help trip it up and make CH more unpredictable. It won't get rid of ESI, sure, but it'd definitely help, even if amik is smarter (Although i personally think CH should also be extraordinary genius, since they have basically limitless knowledge, Can logically go beyond anything any individual human can achieve physically and mentally, the fact that people like Nostradamus exist, ESP, etc)

There's also a pretty notable difference in terms of weapons, too. CH has a shield, which they'd also be able to use with perfection cause elite roman warriors and the like, whilst Amik doesn't have anything to block any projectiles that CH throws at em

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I think the biggest problem for CH here will be 2 things

1. Amik has used ESI to dodge bullets before even after they've been fired. ESI slows bullets to a standstill and Amik has predicted ways to dodge them after they were already fired (which honestly should give him a higher speed rating but I've been to lazy to calculate that recently), so hitting Amik is going to be difficult

2. Even if Amik is hit, he can survive with up to 43% of his body destroyed, so he'll be fine for a while. Meanwhile, a single bullet and CH is instantly dead here

Also, although the ESP thing will be helpful for general intuition type stuff, it pales in comparison to what Amik can do with stuff like that, and although powerful, it's not Peter's spider-sense, it won't just instantly predict every move Amik makes, it's not precognition or anything

 

[Rayfire]

1. Amik has used ESI to dodge bullets before even after they've been fired. ESI slows bullets to a standstill and Amik has predicted ways to dodge them after they were already fired (which honestly should give him a higher speed rating but I've been to lazy to calculate that recently), so hitting Amik is going to be difficult

What if CH Takes him by surprise? CH knows about ESI and so will exploit any way to get around it. ESI as far as i know it doesn't automatically activate as soon as someone tries to kill amik. Both CH and Amik are extremely intelligent in their own ways (CH Definitely has the edge in knowledge, experience, strategy, focus, etc, Amik has way better processing speed and sheer computing power, though if im wrong correct me) so i think even if CH is considered dumber, he still meets the requirements (That is, the IQ and knowledge requirement) to get around ESI.

2. Even if Amik is hit, he can survive with up to 43% of his body destroyed, so he'll be fine for a while. Meanwhile, a single bullet and CH is instantly dead here

CH has the shield to defend himself from a fatal blow, and definitely has the skill and intuition to know when to hold it up. Composite human means he has the experience of the greatest soldiers/gun users to ever live COMBINED after all. This also goes for CH attacking too. Amik could definitely handle a few shots, but wouldn't that slow him down if, i don't know, CH shot his leg or arm off? Amik bleeding out is also a factor

Also, although the ESP thing will be helpful for general intuition type stuff, it pales in comparison to what Amik can do with stuff like that, and although powerful, it's not Peter's spider-sense, it won't just instantly predict every move Amik makes, it's not precognition or anything

Yeah, but i think it should be a factor. Analytical prediction ain't as good as precog, but it'd definitely help CH. ESI can't predict everything perfectly either, otherwise it couldn't be outsmarted or tricked to begin with

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

What if CH Takes him by surprise? CH knows about ESI and so will exploit any way to get around it. ESI as far as i know it doesn't automatically activate as soon as someone tries to kill amik. Both CH and Amik are extremely intelligent in their own ways (CH Definitely has the edge in knowledge, experience, strategy, focus, etc, Amik has way better processing speed and sheer computing power, though if im wrong correct me) so i think even if CH is considered dumber, he still meets the requirements (That is, the IQ and knowledge requirement) to get around ESI.

Extrasensory Perception (Capable of scanning nearby terrain in a 3d cube, allowing him to know everything in his surroundings down to the smallest details, making it nearly impossible to sneak attack him)

It would be pretty hard to get the jump on him if he knows where CH is. Stealth isn't really an option for CH here

CH has the shield to defend himself from a fatal blow, and definitely has the skill and intuition to know when to hold it up. Composite human means he has the experience of the greatest soldiers/gun users to ever live COMBINED after all. This also goes for CH attacking too. Amik could definitely handle a few shots, but wouldn't that slow him down if, i don't know, CH shot his leg or arm off? Amik bleeding out is also a factor

The shield definetly is a big help here, as it keeps CH from getting blown apart. The main problem is that Amik has gotten around these shields before, mainly through dissarming (which he could do due to better LS) or through shooting through the glass, which usually only takes a few shots as the glass is weaker than the rest of the shield. Granted, these people were less skilled, but that doesn't change the fact that Amik would know how to get past something like this. He has a few times before, so he can do it again.

As for the bleeding out, Amik can still do that, and having an arm or leg shot off is not going to benifit him, but Amik knows this, and he'll try to not be shot. ESI should keep him away from bullets for the most part due to being able to predict pretty much all of them.

ESI, even without much knowledge of the opponent, is still really powerful and in-verse is considered pretty much a 1-to-1 replication of what will happen and has stupidly good accuracy, though it isn't perfect as it relies on the androids calculation abilities, which can still falter. But CH, even with prior knowledge, I don't think could realistically be able to trick it, at least at first. CH has the skill of all soldiers ever, but Amik has predicted the moves from entire groups of skilled soldiers with crazy levels of training before with pretty much 100% accuracy (these soldiers had knowledge of ESI as well, and were still helpless against it). CH is a great stratigist, but Amik has predicted the strategies of androids even smarter than himself before and came out on top. Amik tricked it, sure, but he had to feed it with information he would proceed to go against over a several minute fight. Switch up too early before the prediction system gets comfortable, and the ESI will adapt.

The biggest hurdle for CH is going to be having an opponent that can, with very high accuracy, predict where to go, what to do, what will happen, and calculate what the best course of action possible is. CH has the skill and experience here, they could possibly outsmart Amik and even find a way to trick the ESI, and his gun can kill Amik, but even for someone as smart as CH, it's pretty hard to counter something that knows what you'll likely try to do before you do it and can find out how to get past that.

Not to mention that if CH ***** up once, he's dead, while Amik does have a bit of room for error due to being able to survive a few rounds. So Amik can mess up once or twice, figure out how CH fights, and find a way around it, while we can't mess up once or the robot will just turn the skull into a red mist with a single shot

 

[Rayfire]

It would be pretty hard to get the jump on him if he knows where CH is. Stealth isn't really an option for CH here

I guess it would depend on the range of the cube, but CH has lots of buildings to hide behind if he tries to sneak attack amik, and even if amik see’s him coming with extrasensory perception, CH will also see him coming, so it’d kinda just make them 50/50

The shield definetly is a big help here, as it keeps CH from getting blown apart. The main problem is that Amik has gotten around these shields before, mainly through dissarming (which he could do due to better LS) or through shooting through the glass, which usually only takes a few shots as the glass is weaker than the rest of the shield. Granted, these people were less skilled, but that doesn't change the fact that Amik would know how to get past something like this. He has a few times before, so he can do it again.

Riot shields in real life seem to work similarly in this case, so, especially considering that CH has full prior knowledge on amik here, and since CH is also well aware of this weakness (Bro literally invented riot shields) I doubt it’d be easy to do this from a distance when CH can cover himself with the buildings as well. CH is pretty screwed if amik manages to get in close, obviously, but they’d know not to let Amik do that, so they’d fight from a distance consistently to avoid it.

ESI, even without much knowledge of the opponent, is still really powerful and in-verse is considered pretty much a 1-to-1 replication of what will happen and has stupidly good accuracy, though it isn't perfect as it relies on the androids calculation abilities, which can still falter. But CH, even with prior knowledge, I don't think could realistically be able to trick it, at least at first. CH has the skill of all soldiers ever, but Amik has predicted the moves from entire groups of skilled soldiers with crazy levels of training before with pretty much 100% accuracy (these soldiers had knowledge of ESI as well, and were still helpless against it). CH is a great stratigist, but Amik has predicted the strategies of androids even smarter than himself before and came out on top. Amik tricked it, sure, but he had to feed it with information he would proceed to go against over a several minute fight. Switch up too early before the prediction system gets comfortable, and the ESI will adapt.

How does that work? Apparently you can trick it if you switch strategies mid fight, but it can predict your movements right off the bat with zero knowledge on your movement patterns? And I don’t remember seeing the soldier thing on his profile. Maybe I’m just being confused, but even then, CH doesn’t have to get in close where amik will want him. CH can always buy time to build up a pattern that ESI will alert amik of, and then suddenly switch movements or strategies right when CH gets an opening. The situation the soldiers were in is also unclear. Were they throwing straight hands? Were they shooting at him wildly? Did they have 250 IQ?

In any case, CH is way beyond any elite soldier logically speaking, since he is literally all of them combined, plus insane intuition and several other abilities that will boost any skills CH have or could obtain. CH is also smart enough to avoid doing anything that amik will see coming through ESI, at least to deal damage until he gets an opening to exploit ESI’s weakness. It will be kind of like this quote:

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night. And when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.” - Sun Tzu, The art of war.

The biggest hurdle for CH is going to be having an opponent that can, with very high accuracy, predict where to go, what to do, what will happen, and calculate what the best course of action possible is. CH has the skill and experience here, they could possibly outsmart Amik and even find a way to trick the ESI, and his gun can kill Amik, but even for someone as smart as CH, it's pretty hard to counter something that knows what you'll likely try to do before you do it and can find out how to get past that.

Composite human is, well, a composite human, so they’ll also know what the best possible course of action is with their godly intelligence, full knowledge of the area around him and his opponent, Extreme Accuracy of his own, and also the best humanly possible strategising through literally countless years of combat experience (Mentally ofc) so they’re kinda 50/50

And if CH knows about ESI, therefore knowing that it’ll predict what they are most likely to do (Although it doesn’t make a lot of sense that it can predict your movements off the bat with no knowledge but it can’t when you switch strategies suddenly, at least to me) can’t CH just… Do the complete opposite of what the ESI will expect? It’s made clear that ESI isn’t 100% perfect, especially with no knowledge either, and I have no idea if those soldiers were just randomly trying to land shots on Amik either, which also wouldn’t make much sense either if that is the case, since it’s described as Information Analysis/Analytical prediction. Predicting random shots would be outright precognition

I think it should also be said that Amik has to be more careful with his shots (Amik has 90 rounds with his handgun, whilst CH has 96 rounds according to the details on the weapon profiles) and that he’d also need to wait a little bit longer to accurately aim because of the massive recoil it has, which could potentially leave him unable to counterattack effectively for a brief moment, whilst CH wouldn’t have that problem and can fire whenever he wants and not suffer from recoil. CH’s own gun could jam, sure, but CH also knows the most perfect ways to unjam a gun quickly, and I don’t think a futuristic gun would be any different if CH has been around long enough to be hired as an assasin.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Sorry for not responding earlier, I was grounded and had my computer taken away, and I hate making replies using the mobile version of the site. I'll reply to this tommorow when I'm not as sleep deprived and can properly respond

 

[Rayfire]

All good bro. I know how that feels (Also i use the mobile version all the dang time lol)

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Alright, I'm rested, not grounded, and ready to talk about humans vs robots

How does that work? Apparently you can trick it if you switch strategies mid fight, but it can predict your movements right off the bat with zero knowledge on your movement patterns? And I don’t remember seeing the soldier thing on his profile. Maybe I’m just being confused, but even then, CH doesn’t have to get in close where amik will want him. CH can always buy time to build up a pattern that ESI will alert amik of, and then suddenly switch movements or strategies right when CH gets an opening. The situation the soldiers were in is also unclear. Were they throwing straight hands? Were they shooting at him wildly? Did they have 250 IQ?

And if CH knows about ESI, therefore knowing that it’ll predict what they are most likely to do (Although it doesn’t make a lot of sense that it can predict your movements off the bat with no knowledge but it can’t when you switch strategies suddenly, at least to me)

I'll explain this a bit better. The answer is bad writing. That's your answer

ESI is a prediction system. Humans are pretty predictable creatures, and even modern-day computers can predict humans actions fairly well. Type 4 AMIKA's blow any modern-day AI & computer out of the water in intelligence and computing power, and can make predictions even with very little info. Gathering info on an opponent makes the predictions vastly more accurate though, and far more likely for the counter-plan to succeed. It can still make these predictions even without the pre-gathered information as judging what a human is likely to do in certian situations is fairly easy, especially for a high-powered AI like Amik that was built to be able to predict a soldiers movement in war and adjust accordingly even without proper time to scan them. Predicting where a human will shoot when you start running isn't exactly that hard of a task, and with his intelligence, Amik can do it to dozens of guns at the same time.

And countering ESI isn't as simple as just "changing strategies". Well, it kind of is, but it's a bit more complex than that. The way it is countered is by feeding it a whole bunch of info and then directly countering said info. That's like showing a modern-day AI a bunch of videos of people opening a door, sitting down, and eating food, then later showing it a video of a man opening a door and asking it to predict what the man will do. Obviously, the AI will say "oh, he'll go sit down and eat some food." If the man suddenly opens the door, walks right past the table and goes into a different room, the AI will be dumfounded and get its prediction completely wrong because the information it was fed earlier was went against entirley. That's more or less how the ESI is tricked, feeding it information that you then go directly against. If you convince it that you are a horrible fighter, barely know how to throw a punch, and are pretty much an idiot that is bumbling around, the AI will treat you like a bumbling idiot and make predictions as such. If you then suddenly pull out Bruce Lee level martial arts, the ESI will be completely thrown off as you just went against every piece of info it had on you.

But it's not like you can just throw out some judo then some kickboxing right after and suddenly expect the ESI state to be completely helpless. It can rapidly register new information and adapt, and you have to get it to the point of where the computer is 100% confident of your next move and believes that it's reading you like a book and has to go against dozens of pieces of gathered information in order to fully trick it out. And even then, the Type 5's ESI was still somewhat adapting to this and could still give decent, albeit very flawed, predictions and strategies for what Amik was doing. But by the end, it just had too much conflicting information and couldn't come up with a proper prediction.

I hope I kind of cleared up ESI and how it makes its predictions.

The situation the soldiers were in is also unclear. Were they throwing straight hands? Were they shooting at him wildly? Did they have 250 IQ?

Think this image but Amik had cover to run too and the soldiers were roughly like 30 meters away

All of the soldiers had guns, and Amik predicted the most likely paths of the bullets, the best way to dodge the bullets, and how to safely get to cover with the least amount of risk possible. From there, he managed to disarm a soldier and use their firearm against the rest of the troops and won. During this whole ordeal, Amik caught 1 bullet to the arm due to an error not with ESI, but with him accidentally not running as fast as he should've, thus making him get caught in one of the bullets trajectories.

And no, the soldiers themselves were definetly not anything special in intelligence, but other commanders Amik meets, like Captain Fordweather, is pretty comparable, as he has plenty of genius - extraordinary genius feats (Multiple statements of being a master strategist, has shut down entire small countries before, outsmarts Carla several times, ect), and these guys are scared of Amik's abilities so it's not like Amik hasn't been compared to master strategists before.

In any case, CH is way beyond any elite soldier logically speaking, since he is literally all of them combined, plus insane intuition and several other abilities that will boost any skills CH have or could obtain. CH is also smart enough to avoid doing anything that amik will see coming through ESI, at least to deal damage until he gets an opening to exploit ESI’s weakness. It will be kind of like this quote:

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night. And when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.” - Sun Tzu, The art of war.

Amik's initial predictions probably won't be amazing, but Amik still knows that this guy has bare minimum military training and is more skilled than all the other soldiers he has faced. CH has the training of all soldiers, but they still only have the training of a soldier, and most soldiers, even highly skilled ones, follow pretty much the same basic principles when in a gunfight (IIRC the actual US Marine Corp gunfight rules are simular to this). CH can do them better than any human alive, sure, but the strategies really won't be much diffrent as all decent soldiers just follow this line of thinking. So making a predition of how CH will react in certain situations shouldn't be this impossible task for Amik.

Even though CH is the most unpredicable human on earth, they'll still 100% follow basic military and firefight concepts. There's a reason why soldiers follow those rules, because they're incredibly efficent at keeping you alive, so unless CH is activley trying to die, they'll use their own training that has kept millions of soldiers in firefights, which will make early predictions easier for Amik, as he'll generally know what basic training and rules CH will follow in this match and can run decently accurate, though not perfect, predictions that should help Amik stay safe. And if CH decides to not follow these basic firefight rules, he's just killed himself as not following these pretty much ensures you won't win a firefight, especially against someone as skilled as Amik.

Composite human is, well, a composite human, so they’ll also know what the best possible course of action is with their godly intelligence, full knowledge of the area around him and his opponent, Extreme Accuracy of his own, and also the best humanly possible strategising through literally countless years of combat experience (Mentally ofc) so they’re kinda 50/50

The only diffrence is that Amik has a far better and more reliable prediction system that not only tells him what the opponent is going to do, but how to counter it as well and the statistically most likely way to win, and it does this virtually instantly. It's also spammable, and Amik frequently spams it in-character

And if CH knows about ESI, therefore knowing that it’ll predict what they are most likely to do can’t CH just… Do the complete opposite of what the ESI will expect? It’s made clear that ESI isn’t 100% perfect, especially with no knowledge either, and I have no idea if those soldiers were just randomly trying to land shots on Amik either, which also wouldn’t make much sense either if that is the case, since it’s described as Information Analysis/Analytical prediction. Predicting random shots would be outright precognition

CH wouldn't really know what Amik was predicting. He wouldn't know what info Amik has/hasn't gathered on him yet and thus wouldn't really know what Amik has planned. Sure, CH has prior knowledge on Type 4 AMIKA's abilities and strengths, but she doesn't know what Amik knows about them, what predicitons Amik is making, or what strategy Amik thinks they're about to pull and what the counter will be.

CH likely isn't outstrategising here, as not only is Amik >= CH in strategy intel, but Amik pretty much has a pause button that gives him as much time as he needs to figure out what he needs to do and a system that helps him predict what strategy is best.

Are Amik's predictions perfect? No. But you know who else's predictions aren't perfect? Composite Human. Amik does mess up sometimes, but CH isn't exactly immune to mistakes either. The only diffrence is that if Amik makes a mistake, he'll likely be okay, he has wiggle room to mess up and re-evaluate his plan. If CH makes a mistake, they have far less wiggle room and chances to come up with a new plan.

Also, no, the soldiers weren't doing random shots, they were aiming specifically at Amik while trying to not hit the other soldiers surrounding him. He was able to predict when certian soldiers would raise their guns and fire and where they would likely fire with that given information, and due to humans being pretty predictable, Amik could easily predict what to do and execute it, only slipping up because he wasn't running fast enough. CH won't be making random shots either, they'll be making stratigic shots to weak points, such as the head or specific joints, not trying to do that would just hurt CH. Prediting roughly when someone's going to shoot and where wouldn't be hard for a computer like Amik, especially if he's already gotten decent info on him through scanning.

I think it should also be said that Amik has to be more careful with his shots (Amik has 90 rounds with his handgun, whilst CH has 96 rounds according to the details on the weapon profiles) and that he’d also need to wait a little bit longer to accurately aim because of the massive recoil it has, which could potentially leave him unable to counterattack effectively for a brief moment, whilst CH wouldn’t have that problem and can fire whenever he wants and not suffer from recoil. CH’s own gun could jam, sure, but CH also knows the most perfect ways to unjam a gun quickly, and I don’t think a futuristic gun would be any different if CH has been around long enough to be hired as an assasin.

I really doubt ammo will be an issue for these guys, most irl gunfights don't last more than a few seconds (though this is for close ranged gunfights, mid ranged ones like this likely won't end as quick), and with these guy's percission, they won't be waisting much shots and they likely won't burn through that ammo that fast. The aiming part & recoil is true, but keep in mind Amik's LS. He'll be able to keep it under decent control, he's done it before and has been fine, even in firefights with groups of people. The only people super effected by the recoil are the humans of the verse like Carla. Also, yeah, the gun jamming really won't be an issue for CH.


A big point that I want to mention is that when Amik did trick the Type 5 AMIKA, he got hit numerous times. In order to trick the AI, you have to get the AI to the point that it's reading you like a book before you can suddenly trick it, otherwise it can still adapt and catch you before you can trick it. It calculates the most likely strategy to happen and work, but that doesn't mean it doesn't account for the fact that it's only a prediction, and that anything can happen. Sure it can predict the strategy that had a 84% chance of happening, but that doesn't mean when the 16% chance scenario happens, the ESI will be helpless. It'll just realize that scenario 1 isn't happening and plan for scenario 2. Or if Amik fumbles on the execution of plan 1 on taking the opponent down, he could just enter it again and go for plan 2. It will not be perfect, and it's less likely to work, but if CH tries to switch up plans just a bit too early, the ESI will be set back a bit, but it can still adapt and get back on track.

Unless you get it to think it can 100% predict what you will do, it still has the possiblity of recovering and planning something diffrent. And in order for Amik to do this, he had to get hit A LOT and take a lot of damage and repeat the exact same thing that wasn't working over and over and over before he could trick the ESI. CH really can't do that here, as a single hit and it's game over. Not to mention that in order to do the tricking plan, CH will need to keep at that same strategy for extended periods of time. Meanwhile, Amik will be calculating the best way to get past that exact strategy. All he'll be doing is making himself easier to predict and thus, making it more likely for Amik to kill him. And unlike Amik in his own "tricking the ESI" situation, CH doesn't have the durability or wiggle room to survive long enough to pull the uno reverse on Amik's information and dome shot him.

And this all goes without even mentioning the fact that Amik litteraly came up with the "trick the ESI by feeding it wrong information" plan himself, so he'll probably realize what CH is doing and account for that.

Honestly, the way that I see this battle is as CH fighting somebody that can predict nearly anything that they'll do with immense percission and speed, has edges in strength, durability, and stamina, can keep fighting through crazy levels of damage, and is pretty much an equal in intelligence and strategy. As I said earlier, CH is very smart and skilled, but when dealing with someone that can predict what you'll do with high accuracy and requires you to become even more predicable to trick them, there isn't much you can do other than hope that they slip up bad enough for you to win, and while sure, there are some scenarios where that happens, in the vast majority of fights, Amik likely won't give CH that chance

 

[Rayfire]

HOLY SPAGHETTIOS THIS IS AN AKUMO-LEVEL RESPONSE

(I’ll get around to responding this when I can tho )

 

[Rayfire]

And countering ESI isn't as simple as just "changing strategies". Well, it kind of is, but it's a bit more complex than that. The way it is countered is by feeding it a whole bunch of info and then directly countering said info. That's like showing a modern-day AI a bunch of videos of people opening a door, sitting down, and eating food, then later showing it a video of a man opening a door and asking it to predict what the man will do. Obviously, the AI will say "oh, he'll go sit down and eat some food." If the man suddenly opens the door, walks right past the table and goes into a different room, the AI will be dumfounded and get its prediction completely wrong because the information it was fed earlier was went against entirley. That's more or less how the ESI is tricked, feeding it information that you then go directly against. If you convince it that you are a horrible fighter, barely know how to throw a punch, and are pretty much an idiot that is bumbling around, the AI will treat you like a bumbling idiot and make predictions as such. If you then suddenly pull out Bruce Lee level martial arts, the ESI will be completely thrown off as you just went against every piece of info it had on you.

But it's not like you can just throw out some judo then some kickboxing right after and suddenly expect the ESI state to be completely helpless. It can rapidly register new information and adapt, and you have to get it to the point of where the computer is 100% confident of your next move and believes that it's reading you like a book and has to go against dozens of pieces of gathered information in order to fully trick it out. And even then, the Type 5's ESI was still somewhat adapting to this and could still give decent, albeit very flawed, predictions and strategies for what Amik was doing. But by the end, it just had too much conflicting information and couldn't come up with a proper prediction.

I hope I kind of cleared up ESI and how it makes its predictions.

That’s kinda what I was going for, lol. Even if ESI isn’t completely dumbfounded, it would still mean Amik wouldn’t have his crazy “Predicting bullet trajectories before they even fire” type prediction skills. Even then, Especially considering that CH is insanely smart in his own right, has more ways to defend with their shield, and knows exactly what ESI is, I don’t think they’d be completely helpless against it at the very least. It’d certainly give Amik an edge here, but that doesn’t mean CH can’t predict amik’s actions either, even if it’s not as good.

Additionally, ESI won’t exactly have anything to go on at first to do it’s thing either, especially if amik is dealing with someone who is literally perfect in every single way possible. So there’s a chance that CH might take him off-guard right off the bat even if amik can scan his surroundings to know his location.

Think this image but Amik had cover to run too and the soldiers were roughly like 30 meters away

All of the soldiers had guns, and Amik predicted the most likely paths of the bullets, the best way to dodge the bullets, and how to safely get to cover with the least amount of risk possible. From there, he managed to disarm a soldier and use their firearm against the rest of the troops and won. During this whole ordeal, Amik caught 1 bullet to the arm due to an error not with ESI, but with him accidentally not running as fast as he should've, thus making him get caught in one of the bullets trajectories.

And no, the soldiers themselves were definetly not anything special in intelligence, but other commanders Amik meets, like Captain Fordweather, is pretty comparable, as he has plenty of genius - extraordinary genius feats (Multiple statements of being a master strategist, has shut down entire small countries before, outsmarts Carla several times, ect), and these guys are scared of Amik's abilities so it's not like Amik hasn't been compared to master strategists before.

I see. Once again though, CH is much, much smarter than a platoon of soldiers, so they aren’t going to be dumb enough to waste ammo that ESI will see coming, and will do everything possible to get around it, which, at the the very least, CH could hinder it as I’ve explained above ^ And there’s also the fact that ESI doesn’t know what someone who is literally the best at everything is like, so ESI would be stuck, at least at first.

As for intelligence, I feel like CH should definitely be considered an hugely upscaled version of Captain Fordweather. He’s shut down small countries before, yeah, but that’s not always comparable to, uh, taking over entire frickin continents, and whilst starting from complete scratch too (For example, napoleon, Alexander the Great, a certain funni toothbrush mustache man, etc) and not only that, but CH would have the experience and knowledge of thousands of master strategists throughout history as well, which speaks for itself. I think it’d be safe to say that Captain Fordweather and others would also be pretty intimidated by CH in terms of intelligence too.

CH wouldn't really know what Amik was predicting. He wouldn't know what info Amik has/hasn't gathered on him yet and thus wouldn't really know what Amik has planned. Sure, CH has prior knowledge on Type 4 AMIKA's abilities and strengths, but she doesn't know what Amik knows about them, what predicitons Amik is making, or what strategy Amik thinks they're about to pull and what the counter will be.

CH likely isn't outstrategising here, as not only is Amik >= CH in strategy intel, but Amik pretty much has a pause button that gives him as much time as he needs to figure out what he needs to do and a system that helps him predict what strategy is best.

Are Amik's predictions perfect? No. But you know who else's predictions aren't perfect? Composite Human. Amik does mess up sometimes, but CH isn't exactly immune to mistakes either. The only diffrence is that if Amik makes a mistake, he'll likely be okay, he has wiggle room to mess up and re-evaluate his plan. If CH makes a mistake, they have far less wiggle room and chances to come up with a new plan.

Also, no, the soldiers weren't doing random shots, they were aiming specifically at Amik while trying to not hit the other soldiers surrounding him. He was able to predict when certian soldiers would raise their guns and fire and where they would likely fire with that given information, and due to humans being pretty predictable, Amik could easily predict what to do and execute it, only slipping up because he wasn't running fast enough. CH won't be making random shots either, they'll be making stratigic shots to weak points, such as the head or specific joints, not trying to do that would just hurt CH. Prediting roughly when someone's going to shoot and where wouldn't be hard for a computer like Amik, especially if he's already gotten decent info on him through scanning.

Amik doesn’t know what CH is all about either. Carla here just tells him “Yo kowalski, this guy’s pretty dangerous” and gives him what CH looks like and nothing else. If anything, Amik has less info. Even if CH doesn’t know about how much Amik knows about them or not, it doesn’t really matter, since CH still has more knowledge in the end.

I feel like the outstrategising part is a tiny bit debatable. Amik will have way better processing speed, intuition, etc, but CH has far more experience, knowledge, and knows all the best strats possible anyway, especially considering CH should be way smarter than Captain Fordweather as I’ve explained above. ^ CH would also have a fair bit of time to strategise themselves too. Amik can slow down his perception of time briefly through ESI and whatever tech he has I believe, but CH can buy themselves time as well, and would have much more knowledge and experience to pull from too.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I'll make my reply to that post later today

I'm also going to send this thread to a few other FC/OC users to ask for their opinion that way we can have multiple people joining this discussion

 

[Javenplayz253]

Aight lemme read both's profiles

 

[Chanimate]

Alright, there is a lot of crap said up there, but this is what I think.

CH is the amalgamation of every human, minus their bad traits. Because of this, they have incredible intelligence. You gave CH prior knowledge about Amik, so I assume that means ESI as well. CH could very well trick the ESI, given their incredible intelligence. However, they are not going for the kill and Amik seems comparable (if not almost certainly superior) in intelligence.

CH has the weakness of being a human, so if Amik gets even a few hits in, CH is probably dead. They also only have 3 shots of the weapon that can harm Amik, and while they are certainly smart enough to use the gun properly (better than any normal human), it's still against a super AI that is expecting them.

This is a very complicated match up that I need more time to think about

 

[Chanimate]

Upon further review, I think Amik has the advantage here. It's got many of the same advantages of the CH, but has less prep time. It's likely just as good a shot as CH and could take out CH before being taken out himself. He also has more ammo and will absolutely win in a close fight. He also has a speed advantage, which might make shooting him harder, even for the composite human. I'm aware humans have done incredible things with their aim, but usually that takes multiple attempts, it usually isn't against a hostile AI, and it usually isn't against something that has avoided bullets before.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

CH has the weakness of being a human, so if Amik gets even a few hits in, CH is probably dead. They also only have 3 shots of the weapon that can harm Amik, and while they are certainly smart enough to use the gun properly (better than any normal human), it's still against a super AI that is expecting them.

*mags, not shots. Each mag holds 32 shots, so 96 in all

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Upon further review, I think Amik has the advantage here. It's got many of the same advantages of the CH, but has less prep time. It's likely just as good a shot as CH and could take out CH before being taken out himself. He also has more ammo and will absolutely win in a close fight. He also has a speed advantage, which might make shooting him harder, even for the composite human. I'm aware humans have done incredible things with their aim, but usually that takes multiple attempts, it usually isn't against a hostile AI, and it usually isn't against something that has avoided bullets before.

CH has 6 more shots than Amik btw, 32*3 = 96 while 18*5 = 90

Do you want me to count that as a vote or do you want to wait?

 

[Chanimate]

*mags, not shots. Each mag holds 32 shots, so 96 in all

Thanks for clarifying. Nevermind then, CH has more than a good chance of hitting then.

 

[Chanimate]

CH has 6 more shots than Amik btw, 32*3 = 96 while 18*5 = 90

Do you want me to count that as a vote or do you want to wait?

No, don't count the vote. This is a complicated match and I don't think it's that clear. That said, I do think Amik has the advantage, especially with what you said about the group. Unlike in normal fiction, conservation of ninjutsu does not apply to these fights and a group of humans is inherently harder to avoid than one really really skilled human.

 

[Volt12121]

That is quite the complex match up, especially with all the point that wete brought up. But overall, i'd probably hand the victory to Amik, Composite Human's biggest fault is well, being human, no matter how much endurance they have, in the long run they'll eventually be to damaged to keep up with Amik who can manage wounds far better than them.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Alright, reply time

That’s kinda what I was going for, lol. Even if ESI isn’t completely dumbfounded, it would still mean Amik wouldn’t have his crazy “Predicting bullet trajectories before they even fire” type prediction skills. Even then, Especially considering that CH is insanely smart in his own right, has more ways to defend with their shield, and knows exactly what ESI is, I don’t think they’d be completely helpless against it at the very least. It’d certainly give Amik an edge here, but that doesn’t mean CH can’t predict amik’s actions either, even if it’s not as good.

Additionally, ESI won’t exactly have anything to go on at first to do it’s thing either, especially if amik is dealing with someone who is literally perfect in every single way possible. So there’s a chance that CH might take him off-guard right off the bat even if amik can scan his surroundings to know his location.

Amik is an extraordinary genius for a reason, predicting bullets like that isn't an easy feat.

And while sure, CH won't be completely helpless and ESI isn't the most OP precog out there, Amik would, again, still know the basics of gunfight, and could apply them even without much knowledge of CH. Just because CH is perfect in every way doesn't mean he won't follow basic firearm combat tactics that Amik would know due to his vast experience with intelligent stratigists and military platoons. If CH runs for cover, Amik doesn't really need scanned knowledge to figure out where CH is likely running too and find a way to prepare around that. If Amik sees CH pointing the barrel of the gun at his head, it's safe to assume CH is going for a headshot and Amik can plan from there. Even though CH is perfect, as Chanimate said, it's objectivley more difficult to dodge multiple bullets from multiple sides than from just one person. Sure, that one person is far more skilled, but it's still just one gun. One direction of attack. As oppose to numerous attacks from numerous angles. If Amik survived that without much info on the opponents, than he can survive CH's firearm skill for a while too.

I see. Once again though, CH is much, much smarter than a platoon of soldiers, so they aren’t going to be dumb enough to waste ammo that ESI will see coming, and will do everything possible to get around it, which, at the the very least, CH could hinder it as I’ve explained above ^

CH is far smarter than a platoon of soldiers, but so is Amik. And while CH will be trying to get past ESI, my question is how? How would he try to get around that? Tricking it is going to be extremley dangerous as he can't mess it up even once and he'll have to make himself an easier target to do it. "Hindering" it might be an option, but what's stopping the ESI from just rapidly adapting again? Or just going with a backup plan if plan A ain't working? Or Amik from just spamming it so that he is constantly changing his strategy every second? He can calculate 10,000,000 ways to kill someone in the blink of an eye after all, he can just spam to constantly make new strategies and he can make a new one faster than CH's brain can even physically percieve and act the new one out.

And it's not like Amik can't physically fight or function without it, he's still a great shot and strategist, ESI just lets him slow things down and think things out better, as well as gives him a visual 3D workplace to think things out. But even without it, he can still fight.

And there’s also the fact that ESI doesn’t know what someone who is literally the best at everything is like, so ESI would be stuck, at least at first.

Yes, but he knows how soldiers fight, and what strategies people will typically fall on in a gun fight. CH is the best at it, but it's still the same basic fundimental ideas that shouldn't be too hard to predict or at least have a general idea of what their plan is. Just because you're extremley good at something doesn't automatically mean that you won't still follow the same basic principles of that thing. An extremley skilled boxer will still try to punch you, likely in the face or torso. An extremley skilled stealth master will still be hiding in the dark shadowy parts of the room or behind the object that covers them the best. An extremley skilled engineer will still follow the same basic principles of engineering, just better than a less experienced engineer.

And as it just so happens, Amik knows the basics of what a highly trained soldier will try to do in a mid-ranged gunfight, as he has done it many times before and was litteraly made for situations like this

As for intelligence, I feel like CH should definitely be considered an hugely upscaled version of Captain Fordweather. He’s shut down small countries before, yeah, but that’s not always comparable to, uh, taking over entire frickin continents, and whilst starting from complete scratch too (For example, napoleon, Alexander the Great, a certain funni toothbrush mustache man, etc) and not only that, but CH would have the experience and knowledge of thousands of master strategists throughout history as well, which speaks for itself. I think it’d be safe to say that Captain Fordweather and others would also be pretty intimidated by CH in terms of intelligence too.

Yes, CH massivley outclasses people like Fordweather. But that doesn't change the fact that other highly skilled stratigists are scared of Amik's intelligence and stratigising skill. There's a reason why the military & police stopped sending soldiers and sent a robot, because no human was actually able to figure out how to take down Amik and his squad of misfits, so they sent a smarter robot to do it.

Amik doesn’t know what CH is all about either. Carla here just tells him “Yo kowalski, this guy’s pretty dangerous” and gives him what CH looks like and nothing else. If anything, Amik has less info. Even if CH doesn’t know about how much Amik knows about them or not, it doesn’t really matter, since CH still has more knowledge in the end.

Amik still knows CH is skilled, likely has military experience, and is very dangerous and that he needs to play it safe. It's not quite to the level of knowledge CH has on Amik, but it's still decent info, and Carla did give him more info than just "He's right there!" points at screen. Simply just knowing this guy's armed is still helpful, as Amik will know that this will be a gun fight and knows to stay by cover.

I feel like the outstrategising part is a tiny bit debatable. Amik will have way better processing speed, intuition, etc, but CH has far more experience, knowledge, and knows all the best strats possible anyway, especially considering CH should be way smarter than Captain Fordweather as I’ve explained above. ^ CH would also have a fair bit of time to strategise themselves too. Amik can slow down his perception of time briefly through ESI and whatever tech he has I believe, but CH can buy themselves time as well, and would have much more knowledge and experience to pull from too.

Without scanning, then yeah it's debatable. But with scanning, Amik definetly outclasses in strategising. Dude could make perfect strategies and get nearly 100% accurate simulations with enough info. He's faught against other powerful androids with even better strength than himself and stayed alive due to knowing the absolute best way to stay alive and exactly how to do it with no errors. This has worked against androids even smarter than himself like the Type 5 AMIKA. And with scanning, Amik completely mopped the floor with dozens of armed opponents casually with his bare hands due to knowing pretty much exactly how the fight was going to play out long before he even engaged the squad. If CH doesn't go for the tricking ESI plan, than Amik will be reading him like a book and will know with pretty much no error what CH is doing and how he will fight, and how to counter it.

CH can stratigise too, but he won't have an absolutely perfect simulation of what will happen and an exact step-by-step on how to counter Amik, while Amik will have that for CH. Also how would CH realistically buy themselves time? Their best bet would be to somehow cripple Amik by shooting off a leg or something, but Amik knows to not let that happen, and he'll know how to make sure it doesn't. Just shooting cover fire to keep Amik away & behind cover might work, but that'll just waste ammo and Amik will probably just see through that.

More knowlege and experience, yes, CH has that, but that doesn't really matter all that much if you've never had to experience something as powerful as Amik's precog, which no human irl has, because precog like this isn't real. Experience against other humans =/= experience against highly intelligent AI that can see an almost perfect simulation of the future if you give it time. And experience and knowledge won't stop Amik from spamming the ability constantly to see if he needs to change his strategy or not.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I think by this point, it's safe to say that I'm voting for Amik & Rayfire is voting for CH. I'll count those votes if nobody has any objections. If someone wants their vote counted too, speak now or forever hold your peace

 

[Chanimate]

I think by this point, it's safe to say that I'm voting for Amik & Rayfire is voting for CH. I'll count those votes if nobody has any objections. If someone wants their vote counted too, speak now or forever hold your peace

A little dramatic, but I’m voting Amik FRA

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

A little dramatic, but I’m voting Amik FRA

It's just a little joke, speak whenever you want

Vote counted

 

[Rayfire]

I will prolly keep my vote on CH, even if it’d be extreme diff in my opinion

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

That is quite the complex match up, especially with all the point that wete brought up. But overall, i'd probably hand the victory to Amik, Composite Human's biggest fault is well, being human, no matter how much endurance they have, in the long run they'll eventually be to damaged to keep up with Amik who can manage wounds far better than them.

Do you want me to count this as a vote for Amik?

 

[Volt12121]

Yes

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Yes

Vote counted

 

[Javenplayz253]

Wait till' Amik meets Comp tree fra

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Wait till' Amik meets Comp tree fra

I'm a bit confused, is this a vote for Amik or Composite Human?

 

[Javenplayz253]

I'm a bit confused, is this a vote for Amik or Composite Human?

Amik

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Amik

Vote counted, that's grace