How to create High 1-B/1-A/High 1-A/0 structures?

[Question_Man_I_guess]

After reading several threads on these topics, some questions arose. I thought that a transcendence of reality and fiction was sufficient, but apparently not (at least in some cases).
So, I wanted to know what descriptions or explanations a narrator or character in a fictional franchise (comic, manga, book, video game, etc.) should give for a structure to be one of those four structures.
So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-B?
So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 1-A?
So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-A?
So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 0?

Thanks!

 

[Vesxpura]

what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-B?

higher dimensions are infinitely bigger than lower ones. there are an infinite amount of these dimensions in a hierarchy.

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 1-A?

R>F transcendence, just read the page for it and the faq of qualitative superiority

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-A?

An hierarchy of infinite 1As, R>F the whole of it

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 0?

Actus purus, The character should lack composition(divine simplicity) and be fully actual(no potentiality). Essence of that character should be equal to its existence

 

[JayaReal]

Ada kebutuhan untuk membaca sistem tingkatan.
1-A: Qualitative Superiority.
High 1-A: Meta-Qualitative Superiority.
For 0, I think you can read it in page tier 0 & here.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

higher dimensions are infinitely bigger than lower ones. there are an infinite amount of these dimensions in a hierarchy.

Then, if a structure is described like: A set of higher dimensiones that are infinitely bigger than lower ones, then it is a High 1-B? And what happen if this higher dimensions trascends the lower ones by seeing them as something fictitious or nonexistent

R>F transcendence, just read the page for it and the faq of qualitative superiority

Okey, I understand this one.

An hierarchy of infinite 1As, R>F the whole of it

What exactly would this look like? Would the High 1-A structure have to transcend R>F a space composed of infinite 1-A dimensions/planes?

Actus purus, The character should lack composition(divine simplicity) and be fully actual(no potentiality). Essence of that character should be equal to its existence

What would this look like?

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Ada kebutuhan untuk membaca sistem tingkatan.

What?

 

[Ti58]

An hierarchy of infinite 1As, R>F the whole of it

That's only 1-A+. High 1-A is beyond 1-A+ in the same way anything 1-A is beyond anything below it

1-A+ is an infinite hierarchy of 1-A stacked on top of each other, High 1-A is fully beyond that hierarchy no matter how deep you go into it

 

[Saqphire]

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-B?

Structure has to have infinite spatial dimensions that quantitatively transcend each other, whether it's in size or spatial complexity

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 1-A?

It has to have a qualitative superiority (i.e. a complete transcendance) over space and time. Qualitative superiority means no matter how much you add on Y with quantitative superiority, you'll never reach X (in this case, X is the 1-A state and Y is space and time). This includes spatial dimensions and their quantity as they essentially are space

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-A?

The structure has to transcend a 1-A construct the same way 1-A transcends spatial dimensions; it has to be completely above qualitative transcendance as a whole, which is called meta-qualitative transcendance.

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 0?

No structure can be boundless. Entities and powers however, can be and for that, they have to essentially be a changeless entity/force that isn't divided into any sub-genres. It cannot be identified as anything concrete as they're above the three laws of thought and they simply have to just be. It's a very complicated tier however and my explanation likely doesn't fully bring justice to it

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

The structure has to transcend a 1-A construct the same way 1-A transcends spatial dimensions; it has to be completely above qualitative transcendance as a whole, which is called meta-qualitative transcendance.

Do you have an example? I mean for be High 1-A, this structure must trascends (like seeing like fiction) a structure compound for "Infinite 1-A sturctures" where X is 1-A infinite structures can never reach Y that it is High 1-A?

 

[JayaReal]

Apakah Anda punya contoh? Maksud saya, untuk mencapai 1-A Tinggi, struktur ini harus melampaui (seperti melihat fiksi) struktur gabungan untuk "struktur 1-A Tak Terhingga" di mana X adalah struktur 1-A tak terhingga, yang tidak akan pernah mencapai Y, sehingga struktur tersebut mencapai 1-A Tinggi?

tidak harus tak terhingga.

 

[Vesxpura]

That's only 1-A+. High 1-A is beyond 1-A+ in the same way anything 1-A is beyond anything below it

1-A+ is an infinite hierarchy of 1-A stacked on top of each other, High 1-A is fully beyond that hierarchy no matter how deep you go into it

thats literally what i said

 

[Vesxpura]

No structure can be boundless. Entities and powers however, can be and for that, they have to essentially be a changeless entity/force that isn't divided into any sub-genres. It cannot be identified as anything concrete as they're above the three laws of thought and they simply have to just be. It's a very complicated tier however and my explanation likely doesn't fully bring justice to it

it isnt complicated whatsoever, i explained it perfectly fine

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Is there a moderator here? I'm not questioning your answers, but there's a bit of a contradiction, and I'd like an "official" response.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Then, if a structure is described like: A set of higher dimensiones that are infinitely bigger than lower ones, then it is a High 1-B? And what happen if this higher dimensions trascends the lower ones by seeing them as something fictitious or nonexistent

But, this will be a High 1-B structure?

 

[TheTenno07]

But, this will be a High 1-B structure?

That's just 1-B, for high 1-B u need infinites of those; If those dimensions seem the other like fictious then it could be 1-A

 

[Qawsedf234]

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-B?

Example: Dungeons and Dragons

When you imagined a line to represent one dimension, you also imagined the line to be somewhere- on a piece of paper for example. But that paper exists in at least two dimensions. Thus, for a line to have any real location or meaning, it must exist within a two-dimensional or larger space. The line itself describes only one dimension, but its location must be described by two.

Similarly, a two-dimensional plus sign can certainly exist alone, but to have real meaning, it must be located within a three-dimensional space from which it may be observed.

The conclusion of this line of reasoning is that any being who perceives a given number of dimensions must exist in a space that has a greater number of dimensions to perceive those dimensions; at least one more and possibly several. From this, it is easily proved that Immortals, who can perceive four dimensions, must exist in five or more.

Immortal discussions of mathematics, philosophy, and other topics lead them to this conclusion. They further deduced that an infinite number of dimensions must exist, since each depends on the one "above" it to exist.

For a dimension to make sense, it must be defined by a higher dimension, which repeats infinitely. So there's an infinite number of higher spatial dimensions, each adding a new direction or spatial axis to define the previous object.

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 1-A?

Example: Warhammer 40,000

"‘Here?’ cried Semyon, throwing his arms wide and spinning around like a lunatic. ‘You have such a limited understanding of the material world, girl. Words like here and there have no meaning. The myriad dimensions of this material universe cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language!’" – Mechanicum

The Warp exists in a state that is indescribable to the material universe. It's made of thoughts and ideas, of concepts that are more "real" than the material universe. Which can be created in the warp by accident when thinking hard enough.

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be High 1-A?

Example 1: 07th Expansion / Umineko

This will be a more complex overview:

• The Material Universe reduced to a fictional object within the Witch's domain
• The Witch's domain itself has higher layers
• Featherine's Study and the Depths of Oblivion exists in a state beyond the Witch's domain

The important parts here are as follows:

• Witch's Domains are all 1-A
• The Witch's Domains can get bigger and are part of a bigger structure
• Even if the Witch's Domains increase by infinite amounts they can't reach the domain of Featherine

Her realm exists on a greater hierarchy than a 1-A hierarchy. Even an infinite amount of R>Fs wouldn't let a Witch reach Featherine, as her state of being is fundamentally superior.

Example 2: DC Comics

• The Sphere of Gods is 1-A
• Despite the Sphere of Gods being 1-A, they are fundamentally inferior to the Overvoid, which exists on a higher state that is unreachable by that cosmology

In both cases, you have a hierarchy that transcends a 1-A hierarchy in a way that can't be bridged by R>F jumps or power increases. Like with 1-A, they operate on a superior framework of existence.

So, what description or explanation should be given for a structure to be 0?

There's really not a structure that's Tier 0. It's a source of creation that things spawn from. Like High 1-A it's complicated:

Example: The Elder Scrolls

• The Godhead is the Dreamer of reality. All things come from it, it transcends everything else and nothing can comprehend its existence.

To quote the tiering system page:

The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Outerverse level+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process, being on a which in which their power influences the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space," where the laws governing it are the three laws of thought), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

That said, characters who embody the framework of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds while nevertheless existing in one.

Tier 0: Boundless​

Entities who are completely transcendent over any and all forms of hierarchical extension. More specifically: They not only encompass the collection of all possible "qualities" represented by High 1-A+, but also exceed it utterly, existing beyond any and all distinctions between ontologies and any division between objects. They are beyond differentiation, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable. See this page for more information on both this tier and the preceding one.

In other words the Godhead is able to define a space that takes in the Laws of Identity, Contradiction, and Excluded Middle. It's able to form a hierarchy composed of all hierarchies; in addition to that, it is in a state that is beyond division and is completely unsurpassable as a concept. There's nothing greater, nothing more, nothing it can't be. It's everything that can be or will be, while still being greater than that.

If you're more familiar with IRL religious ideas, think of things like YHVH/Allah from Abrahamic Religions (at least in most major schools of thought), the Brahman from Hinduism, Nirvana from Buddhism, and I believe the unified Tao/Dao from Taoism. In all of those examples, there's a fundamental force or being that existence springs from, that is unsurpassable in nature, and incorporates all of existence in a way that allows it to form any hierarchy.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Example: Dungeons and Dragons

For a dimension to make sense, it must be defined by a higher dimension, which repeats infinitely. So there's an infinite number of higher spatial dimensions, each adding a new direction or spatial axis to define the previous object.

Example: Warhammer 40,000

The Warp exists in a state that is indescribable to the material universe. It's made of thoughts and ideas, of concepts that are more "real" than the material universe. Which can be created in the warp by accident when thinking hard enough.

Example 1: 07th Expansion / Umineko

Her realm exists on a greater hierarchy than a 1-A hierarchy. Even an infinite amount of R>Fs wouldn't let a Witch reach Featherine, as her state of being is fundamentally superior.

Example 2: DC Comics

• The Sphere of Gods is 1-A
• Despite the Sphere of Gods being 1-A, they are fundamentally inferior to the Overvoid, which exists on a higher state that is unreachable by that cosmology

In both cases, you have a hierarchy that transcends a 1-A hierarchy in a way that can't be bridged by R>F jumps or power increases. Like with 1-A, they operate on a superior framework of existence.

There's really not a structure that's Tier 0. It's a source of creation that things spawn from. Like High 1-A it's complicated:

Example: The Elder Scrolls

• The Godhead is the Dreamer of reality. All things come from it, it transcends everything else and nothing can comprehend its existence.

To quote the tiering system page:

In other words the Godhead is able to define a space that takes in the Laws of Identity, Contradiction, and Excluded Middle. It's able to form a hierarchy composed of all hierarchies; in addition to that, it is in a state that is beyond division and is completely unsurpassable as a concept. There's nothing greater, nothing more, nothing it can't be. It's everything that can be or will be, while still being greater than that.

If you're more familiar with IRL religious ideas, think of things like YHVH/Allah from Abrahamic Religions (at least in most major schools of thought), the Brahman from Hinduism, Nirvana from Buddhism, and I believe the unified Tao/Dao from Taoism. In all of those examples, there's a fundamental force or being that existence springs from, that is unsurpassable in nature, and incorporates all of existence in a way that allows it to form any hierarchy.

Thanks you, Qawsedf. This a whole explanation that it makes things clearer for me, although I have some additional questions that arose based on your answer.

First of all, I apologize if these seem like obvious things, but until a week ago, I only thought that multiverses or infinite multiverses existed. However, there's a completely broader world, and I'm also very new to the VS Battle wiki.

So, getting to the point, here are my questions:

1) A High 1-B structure consists of infinite higher dimensions where one of those dimensions adds a direction or spatial axis that is incomprehensible to the previous one. If a fictional franchise explains this or something similar, does it then count as a High 1-B structure?

2) Is a 1-A structure something incomprehensible to the entire High 1-B structure (from the first dimension to infinity) enough for a structure to be considered 1-A, or must it transcend that by perceiving the entire structure as something merely fictional?

3) For this question, I'll use Umineko as an example. So, the witches' domains are 1-A and form part of a much larger structure, a 1-A structure superior to a normal one, right? Then, a High 1-A structure would be an existential plane where no matter how large the mega 1-A structure grows, it will never reach it because it exists in a higher state. But is that superiority based on a transcendence where the High 1-A structure perceives the mega 1-A (which is formed from infinite normal 1-A structures) as something fictitious?

4) Tier 0 is the source of existence from which the rest of the structures like High 1-A arise, right? Therefore, a plane/structure that is 0 cannot exist; rather, it's something more conceptual and incomprehensible even to structures or entities that are in the High 1-A tier. Then, 0 only can be sources or states?

Thanks for your patience!

 

[Qawsedf234]

1) A High 1-B structure consists of infinite higher dimensions where one of those dimensions adds a direction or spatial axis that is incomprehensible to the previous one. If a fictional franchise explains this or something similar, does it then count as a High 1-B structure?

Anything under 1-A is based on Geometric Dimensions and then for High 1-B+ and Low 1-A it deals with transinfinite numbers of Geometric Dimensions. Spatial axis are not incomprehensible to lower axis, they just exist on a fundamentally higher state than they do. Like you can comprehend what a 5D space is, it's just something you can't perceive due to being 3D in nature.

For the second part, yes, if a fictional franchise has an infinite hierarchy of spaces that increase in spatial scope, it would be High 1-B.

2) Is a 1-A structure something incomprehensible to the entire High 1-B structure (from the first dimension to infinity) enough for a structure to be considered 1-A, or must it transcend that by perceiving the entire structure as something merely fictional?

1-A is about qualitative superiority. It's working on a framework that can never be reached by a lower tier:

Q: What is "qualitative superiority"?​

A: To put it simply: It is superiority over lesser things that involves no element of quantity, or amount, in any manner whatsoever. It, instead, hinges entirely on the nature of the character's existence and ontology. In general, all characters with such superiority over lesser things are 1-A.

To better understand the concept, consider the fact that all tiers from 11-C to Low 1-A can ultimately be bridged together by summing up smaller things, and can likewise be decomposed down into these smaller constituents. For example, a mathematical space with an inaccessible cardinal's worth of dimensions (Well into High 1-B+) is reducible to the individual elements comprising it, each of which is a 0-dimensional point.

An example of the same principle can be seen in the Tychonoff cube: Given the unit interval [0,1] (A 1-dimensional object) and an arbitrary cardinal number κ, one can represent by [0,1]^κ the generalization of the unit interval to κ-many dimensions. In English: If we had a line segment of length 1, and multiplied it by itself, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of times, the result would be a Tychonoff cube of inaccessibly-many dimensions. A 11-B object can be multiplied by itself in order to net a High 1-B+ object. This continuity between the two, where a larger object can be expressed as a composition of many smaller objects, is what makes the gap between these tiers quantitative.

Being 1-A means that no amount of increases, even trans-infinite ones, will bridge this gap. Just being bigger like in your example, won't be enough.

So, the witches' domains are 1-A and form part of a much larger structure, a 1-A structure superior to a normal one, right? Then, a High 1-A structure would be an existential plane where no matter how large the mega 1-A structure grows, it will never reach it because it exists in a higher state. But is that superiority based on a transcendence where the High 1-A structure perceives the mega 1-A (which is formed from infinite normal 1-A structures) as something fictitious?

For this question, no. Think of it like this:

• In Umineko, the Witch Domain views the Human domain as fictional
• The framework difference between the Witch Domain and the Human domain is therefore Reality-Fiction Transcendence. This is called Meta-Transcendence
• To be High 1-A, you need Meta-Meta Transcendence. This means that being R>F to a 1-A space isn't enough, as that's just Meta-Transcendence+1. Even infinite amounts of R>F is just 1-A+, because it's based on the same Meta-Transcendence but on a higher level.
• Featherine's Space is High 1-A because it operates on a different framework from the Witch Domain's R>F, where it's not R>F but another conceptually superior space

You need to be superior in a way different than R>F to get High 1-A.

Tier 0 is the source of existence from which the rest of the structures like High 1-A arise, right?

Your universe can be composed of only 10-Bs and have a Tier 0. A High 1-A or High 1-A+ space is not needed; you just need to fulfill the needed requirement for encompassing all logical states and having an unsurpassable nature.

Therefore, a plane/structure that is 0 cannot exist; rather, it's something more conceptual and incomprehensible even to structures or entities that are in the High 1-A tier. Then, 0 only can be sources or states?

Yes, Tier 0 is not a plane or structure. It's a wellspring where things come from. Something like Tao or Nirvana isn't an entity for example, but its not a place either. It's the thing that all things come from.

The gap between 0 and the other tiers is conceptually greater than any previous gap. It's like the gap between 1-A (1 Layer) to 1-A (Baseline) is greater from 11-C to Low 1-A. A High 1-A being works on a Meta-Meta hierarchy, but a Tier 0 being is composed of all possible hierarchies in a way that's not divisible unlike a High 1-A+.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Anything under 1-A is based on Geometric Dimensions and then for High 1-B+ and Low 1-A it deals with transinfinite numbers of Geometric Dimensions. Spatial axis are not incomprehensible to lower axis, they just exist on a fundamentally higher state than they do. Like you can comprehend what a 5D space is, it's just something you can't perceive due to being 3D in nature.

For the second part, yes, if a fictional franchise has an infinite hierarchy of spaces that increase in spatial scope, it would be High 1-B.

So, spatial axes can be understood, but not perceived. It's like us having theories about 5D, but not being able to perceive it, right?

So, if a fictional franchise establishes a higher-dimensional plane or existential structure where it specifies that these higher dimensions have spatial directions and axes that the lower ones don't, it's a High 1-B. Perfect, that's clear to me.

1-A is about qualitative superiority. It's working on a framework that can never be reached by a lower tier:

Being 1-A means that no amount of increases, even trans-infinite ones, will bridge this gap. Just being bigger like in your example, won't be enough.

So, what would it be like? Shouldn't the 1-A structure consider the higher 1-B level as fiction? How can one then determine if it's a 1-A level? Is it because it possesses concepts and laws that defy all understanding?

If a fictional franchise explains that there is an existential plane that transcends the logic of any of the infinite higher dimensions, would it then be a 1-A level? Or, what exactly would that franchise have to say about it?

For this question, no. Think of it like this:

• In Umineko, the Witch Domain views the Human domain as fictional
• The framework difference between the Witch Domain and the Human domain is therefore Reality-Fiction Transcendence. This is called Meta-Transcendence
• To be High 1-A, you need Meta-Meta Transcendence. This means that being R>F to a 1-A space isn't enough, as that's just Meta-Transcendence+1. Even infinite amounts of R>F is just 1-A+, because it's based on the same Meta-Transcendence but on a higher level.
• Featherine's Space is High 1-A because it operates on a different framework from the Witch Domain's R>F, where it's not R>F but another conceptually superior space

You need to be superior in a way different than R>F to get High 1-A.

So, to be High 1-A, it's not enough for that structure to transcend a 1-A structure; a meta-transcendence is necessary. But what would that be? It doesn't matter if the High 1-A structure transcends a structure composed of infinitely many 1-A structures, right? How will it be a "different way than R>F"

Your universe can be composed of only 10-Bs and have a Tier 0. A High 1-A or High 1-A+ space is not needed; you just need to fulfill the needed requirement for encompassing all logical states and having an unsurpassable nature.
Yes, Tier 0 is not a plane or structure. It's a wellspring where things come from. Something like Tao or Nirvana isn't an entity for example, but its not a place either. It's the thing that all things come from.
The gap between 0 and the other tiers is conceptually greater than any previous gap. It's like the gap between 1-A (1 Layer) to 1-A (Baseline) is greater from 11-C to Low 1-A. A High 1-A being works on a Meta-Meta hierarchy, but a Tier 0 being is composed of all possible hierarchies in a way that's not divisible unlike a High 1-A+.

So, technically, a fictional franchise could consist solely of a multiverse or a timeline, yet have an entity/source that belongs to Tier 0. Is that why the Star Wars Force was added as belonging to Tier 0?
And how would they know if something in a fictional franchise belongs to Tier 0?
Thanks!

 

[Qawsedf234]

So, spatial axes can be understood, but not perceived. It's like us having theories about 5D, but not being able to perceive it, right?

Yes. That's what Tiers Low 1-C to High 1-B are based on.

Shouldn't the 1-A structure consider the higher 1-B level as fiction?

Yes, but your example was the following:

1-A structure something incomprehensible to the entire High 1-B structure (from the first dimension to infinity) enough for a structure to be considered 1-A,

Being incomprehensible, by itself, is not a 1-A justification. For example, an Aleph-2 amount of dimensions would also be so much bigger than you'd struggle to understand it, but that doesn't make it 1-A. You need Meta-Transcendence, which is usually R>F to get 1-A.

If a fictional franchise explains that there is an existential plane that transcends the logic of any of the infinite higher dimensions, would it then be a 1-A level? Or, what exactly would that franchise have to say about it?

The key part is explained in the FAQ I linked

This inaccessibility possessed by qualitatively superior characters and realms can also be expressed in terms of sheer ontology, generally speaking. That is to say: They are fundamentally different from the nature of the lower reality, and this different nature is precisely the source of their superiority over it. Since their "otherness" is identical to their transcendence, no expansion or extension of the lower reality and anything in it can possibly attain to them, as long as it maintains its particular nature. Put it simply: They are as powerful as they are alien.

The potential disqualifiers largely revolve around the aforementioned aspect of inaccessibility: A qualitative superiority is completely irreducible to anything lesser than itself, and conversely, it cannot be reached by any additive process whatsoever.

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

Secondly, a 1-A level cannot be attained by a process in which the lower level quantitatively "adds up" to itself to break through into the higher one, due to the total lack of structural continuity between the two; the higher level cannot be attained, nor expressed by, any expansions of the lower one, and therefore things from the latter cannot interfere with the former by means of their own lower existences. Put simply: A non-1-A cannot reach the level of 1-A by appealing to another non-1-A

Just being bigger or transcending a plane isn't enough unless that transcendence makes it clear that they're working on a superior framework. That no amount of increases or additions to the lower world would let you reach the higher world.

So, to be High 1-A, it's not enough for that structure to transcend a 1-A structure; a meta-transcendence is necessary.

Well, a Meta-Meta Transcendence.

But what would that be?

I gave two examples with DC and with Umineko. To use DC since that's easier to get as you have a fancy map the Sphere of the Gods are shown with a spectrum wave. No matter how dense that wave gets, no matter how much you increase the size of the God Sphere, it can never reach beyond the Source Wall and get to the Overvoid. At the Source Wall is the limit of imagination and outside the Source Wall you have a fundamentally higher plane of existence.

Like with 1-A, you have to show evidence that no amount of stacking, even an R>F stack, would let you get to the High 1-A sphere. As no increase would let you cross into a higher framework.

So, technically, a fictional franchise could consist solely of a multiverse or a timeline, yet have an entity/source that belongs to Tier 0. Is that why the Star Wars Force was added as belonging to Tier 0?

Yes.

And how would they know if something in a fictional franchise belongs to Tier 0?

They have to meet the criteria listed in the Tier:

High 1-A: High Outerverse level​

Characters or objects who operate on a different, superior qualitative framework from 1-A entities. That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm. In other words, whereas 1-A is a qualitative superiority, High 1-A represents a "meta"-qualitative superiority.

Similarly to 1-A, this tier can be generalized to higher levels of existence. Just as 1-A encompasses qualitative hierarchies, so too can there be meta-qualitative hierarchies. In addition, there can also be "meta"-meta-qualitative superiorities, and so forth, endlessly.

The apex of this tier, represented also by a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (High Outerverse level+), corresponds to characters whose power encompasses meta-qualities, meta-meta-qualities, and any and all conceivable extensions of this process, being on a which in which their power influences the space of all logically possible worlds ("Logical space," where the laws governing it are the three laws of thought), being characters who either have the ability to actualize arbitrarily large worlds, or embody the framework of such worlds itself.

That said, characters who embody the framework of all possible worlds properly speaking may be rightly considered more powerful than those that can simply create arbitrarily big possible worlds while nevertheless existing in one.

Tier 0: Boundless​

Entities who are completely transcendent over any and all forms of hierarchical extension. More specifically: They not only encompass the collection of all possible "qualities" represented by High 1-A+, but also exceed it utterly, existing beyond any and all distinctions between ontologies and any division between objects. They are beyond differentiation, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable. See this page for more information on both this tier and the preceding one.

You have to show that they can represent all Logical Worlds, but also exist beyond separation and are unsurpassable.

It's why God from Dante's Inferno would be Tier 0, despite that entire franchise otherwise being Tier 4 or below.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Yes. That's what Tiers Low 1-C to High 1-B are based on.

Perfect. I think I understand this one.

Being incomprehensible, by itself, is not a 1-A justification. For example, an Aleph-2 amount of dimensions would also be so much bigger than you'd struggle to understand it, but that doesn't make it 1-A. You need Meta-Transcendence, which is usually R>F to get 1-A.
Just being bigger or transcending a plane isn't enough unless that transcendence makes it clear that they're working on a superior framework. That no amount of increases or additions to the lower world would let you reach the higher world.

Let's get creative (I guess).
In a fictional franchise, a High 1-B structure is established. Then, it's explained that there's an existential plane that transcends the High 1-B structure by perceiving it as fictional, and it's explained that this plane operates with laws/concepts incomprehensible to that structure.
So, would it be 1-A?

I gave two examples with DC and with Umineko. To use DC since that's easier to get as you have a fancy map the Sphere of the Gods are shown with a spectrum wave. No matter how dense that wave gets, no matter how much you increase the size of the God Sphere, it can never reach beyond the Source Wall and get to the Overvoid. At the Source Wall is the limit of imagination and outside the Source Wall you have a fundamentally higher plane of existence.
Like with 1-A, you have to show evidence that no amount of stacking, even an R>F stack, would let you get to the High 1-A sphere. As no increase would let you cross into a higher framework.

Okey, I dont understand the High 1-A, but I will read Umineko and DC Cosmology.

You have to show that they can represent all Logical Worlds, but also exist beyond separation and are unsurpassable.
It's why God from Dante's Inferno would be Tier 0, despite that entire franchise otherwise being Tier 4 or below.

What will it be "all logical worlds"?
So, if the source of all creation is described as follows, would it be a Tier 0:
“It is the source of all creation, destruction, and beyond. From it originates all existence from world A (High 1-B structure), world B (1-A structure), and everything beyond their incomprehensible logic”?
If that description doesn't work, what could it be, besides those already existing in the Tier 0 category?

 

[Greenapple234]

So, spatial axes can be understood, but not perceived. It's like us having theories about 5D, but not being able to perceive it, right?

So, if a fictional franchise establishes a higher-dimensional plane or existential structure where it specifies that these higher dimensions have spatial directions and axes that the lower ones don't, it's a High 1-B. Perfect, that's clear to me.

So, what would it be like? Shouldn't the 1-A structure consider the higher 1-B level as fiction? How can one then determine if it's a 1-A level? Is it because it possesses concepts and laws that defy all understanding?

If a fictional franchise explains that there is an existential plane that transcends the logic of any of the infinite higher dimensions, would it then be a 1-A level? Or, what exactly would that franchise have to say about it?


So, to be High 1-A, it's not enough for that structure to transcend a 1-A structure; a meta-transcendence is necessary. But what would that be? It doesn't matter if the High 1-A structure transcends a structure composed of infinitely many 1-A structures, right? How will it be a "different way than R>F"

So, technically, a fictional franchise could consist solely of a multiverse or a timeline, yet have an entity/source that belongs to Tier 0. Is that why the Star Wars Force was added as belonging to Tier 0?
And how would they know if something in a fictional franchise belongs to Tier 0?
Thanks!

Sorry to bother you.
Could you please answer this question?
"If a universe's/ relam essence (its "core") is an abstract, independent concept instead of being rooted in the continuum of space and time, '
Where can you scale ?

 

[Vesxpura]

"If a universe's/ relam essence (its "core") is an abstract, independent concept instead of being rooted in the continuum of space and time, '
Where can you scale ?

Nowhere really, just makes it qualify for Abstract Existence

 

[Greenapple234]

Nowhere really, just makes it qualify for Abstract Existence

but the universe has space and time like normal universe but its core is independent concept.

doesn’t independent concept scale low outerversal?
I mean you can’t destroy this kind of universe without destroying its independent concept itself, even its creation also needs that concept as foundation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Then, it's explained that there's an existential plane that transcends the High 1-B structure by perceiving it as fictional, and it's explained that this plane operates with laws/concepts incomprehensible to that structure.

Perceiving it as fictional is the main thing. You also don't need to have a High 1-B structure to be 1-A.

What will it be "all logical worlds"?

All Logical Worlds refers to the three school of thought that I mentioned before. They represent an arrangement of all possible worlds and the frameworks they can represent.

So, if the source of all creation is described as follows, would it be a Tier 0:

Idk Tier 0 that well. Just look at how other profiles describe them and work from there.

 

[Vesxpura]

Idk Tier 0 that well. Just look at how other profiles describe them and work from there.

It wouldnt. being the source of creation just scales to the cosmology of the verse. this goes for any verse. Tier 0 doesnt require creation nor destruction feats. Anything after Outer doesnt either.

 

[Vesxpura]

What will it be "all logical worlds"?
So, if the source of all creation is described as follows, would it be a Tier 0:
“It is the source of all creation, destruction, and beyond. From it originates all existence from world A (High 1-B structure), world B (1-A structure), and everything beyond their incomprehensible logic”?
If that description doesn't work, what could it be, besides those already existing in the Tier 0 category?

Research something called "modal logic" and "modal realism".
The Description you gave would be classified as supporting evidence and not actually meant as the main argument for any tier 0

 

[Qawsedf234]

It wouldnt.

Didn't say it would. I recommend they look at accepted Tier 0 profiles and work from there.

Tier 0 doesnt require creation nor destruction feats. Anything after Outer doesnt either.

I didn't say it did. In all the examples I gave for 1-A or higher was about state of existence.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Perceiving it as fictional is the main thing. You also don't need to have a High 1-B structure to be 1-A.

Yes, I observed that, but I didn't understand it.
A fictional franchise could be based on a universe (finite or infinite) and a 1-A plane could exist.
For a 1-A plane to exist, there must be:
- A transcendence in describing it as something fictional (as the most important thing).

All Logical Worlds refers to the three school of thought that I mentioned before. They represent an arrangement of all possible worlds and the frameworks they can represent.

The things you say about Nirvana and Alá, right? Then, it "something" is described like something like that, then, it will be Tier 0.

Idk Tier 0 that well. Just look at how other profiles describe them and work from there.

I think I will read the Tier 0 Profiles.

But, I cannot undestrand the Meta trascendence yet to be High 1-A.
I mean... What are the characteristic to consider a structure like High 1-A?
I mean, if a fictional franchise comes to them, what elements should that structure have for them to consider it High 1-A, besides Meta-Transcendence?
And to be High 1-A+?

 

[Vesxpura]

Didn't say it would. I recommend they look at accepted Tier 0 profiles and work from there.

I didn't say it did. In all the examples I gave for 1-A or higher was about state of existence.

Thats fine, Just making sure you know, since you explicitly said you werent that knowledgeable on the tier, So that was for future reference.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Idk Tier 0 that well. Just look at how other profiles describe them and work from there.

Then, Who is the expert one?

 

[Ezaru]

What exactly would this look like? Would the High 1-A structure have to transcend R>F a space composed of infinite 1-A dimensions/planes?

The 1-A planes would need to trancend each other via r>f, and even that is just 1-A+

 

[Ezaru]

Example: Dungeons and Dragons

What is the proof here? Is each outer plane +1d?

For this question, no. Think of it like this:
In Umineko, the Witch Domain views the Human domain as fictional
The framework difference between the Witch Domain and the Human domain is therefore Reality-Fiction Transcendence. This is called Meta-Transcendence
To be High 1-A, you need Meta-Meta Transcendence. This means that being R>F to a 1-A space isn't enough, as that's just Meta-Transcendence+1. Even infinite amounts of R>F is just 1-A+, because it's based on the same Meta-Transcendence but on a higher level.
Featherine's Space is High 1-A because it operates on a different framework from the Witch Domain's R>F, where it's not R>F but another conceptually superior space
You need to be superior in a way different than R>F to get High 1-A.

Well I finally understand high 1-A but this seems super arbitrary

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Just being bigger or transcending a plane isn't enough unless that transcendence makes it clear that they're working on a superior framework. That no amount of increases or additions to the lower world would let you reach the higher world.

Well, a Meta-Meta Transcendence.

Like with 1-A, you have to show evidence that no amount of stacking, even an R>F stack, would let you get to the High 1-A sphere. As no increase would let you cross into a higher framework.

I think I understand High Tier 1-A now.
So, High Tier 1-A structures function differently than 1-A structures.

For example:
In a fictional franchise, it's established that there's a 1-A structure similar to the Warp in Warhammer 40K, formed from concepts, ideas, thoughts, etc., but operating differently from those laws or concepts, and transcending to another reality via R>F.
In that same franchise, there's talk of another plane of existence, one beyond the established 1-A structure. No matter how much it expands or multiplies, it will never reach this new structure. This structure not only transcends the previous one by perceiving it as fictional, but also operates with different and superior laws and concepts.

Is that right?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What is the proof here? Is each outer plane +1d?

In D&D every dimension to have coordinates requires a higher dimension to act as a background. But this works upwards infinitely. As the 4D plane needs a 5D plane, which needs a 6D, etc.

Then, Who is the expert one?

Ultima and DT are generally the most knowledgeable I guess.

 

[Ezaru]

In D&D every dimension to have coordinates requires a higher dimension to act as a background. But this works upwards infinitely. As the 4D plane needs a 5D plane, which needs a 6D, etc.


Ultima and DT are generally the most knowledgeable I guess.

Ah. So yes? Cool

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion about Tier 0, but I wanted to clarify if my understanding of High 1-A tier is correct.

If a fictional franchise (comic or video game) explains the existence of a 1-A structure (Structure A) consisting of infinite layers, and then establishes a superior plane of existence (Structure HA) that operates with completely different laws and concepts than Structure A, and is described as a place without limits (or similar descriptions), and also perceives Structure A as something inferior or fictional, then would it qualify as High 1-A? If not, what elements would qualify it?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion about Tier 0, but I wanted to clarify if my understanding of High 1-A tier is correct.

If a fictional franchise (comic or video game) explains the existence of a 1-A structure (Structure A) consisting of infinite layers, and then establishes a superior plane of existence (Structure HA) that operates with completely different laws and concepts than Structure A, and is described as a place without limits (or similar descriptions), and also perceives Structure A as something inferior or fictional, then would it qualify as High 1-A? If not, what elements would qualify it?

All High 1-A stuff is context based, but as an example that is probably High 1-A as long as the superiority isn't just due to R>F.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

All High 1-A stuff is context based, but as an example that is probably High 1-A as long as the superiority isn't just due to R>F.

Of course.
More justification is needed than a simple R>F transcendence, since, on its own, it doesn't provide enough reason to consider it a High 1-A structure, but rather another 1-A structure superior to a normal one, or one with a higher level.
Is this correct?

 

[Qawsedf234]

More justification is needed than a simple R>F transcendence, since, on its own, it doesn't provide enough reason to consider it a High 1-A structure, but rather another 1-A structure superior to a normal one, or one with a higher level.

It's because the 1-A structure in question is built on R>F. So more R>F just means more "Meta" in "Meta-Transcendence". High 1-A requires "Meta-Meta-Transcendence", so you need another quality for superiority rather than more R>F.

 

[Question_Man_I_guess]

It's because the 1-A structure in question is built on R>F. So more R>F just means more "Meta" in "Meta-Transcendence". High 1-A requires "Meta-Meta-Transcendence", so you need another quality for superiority rather than more R>F.

Ah, now I understand a bit better.
R>F works for the creation of 1-A structures (that would be Meta-Transcendence), but High 1-A structures are created differently. An R>F transcendence doesn't work; we have to look for something different (which would be Meta-Meta-Transcendence).

So, what would this Meta-Meta-Transcendence be like? When I read Umineko's cosmology and the Cthulhu Mythos, it was mentioned that High 1-A spaces functioned differently from their 1-A structures, like they have something different, something thar 1-A structures dont have.

So, this Meta-Meta-Transcendence would mean that these structures are not only infinitely larger than 1-A structures—even if the latter were infinite, they wouldn't reach them—but that they operate with different laws/concepts, right?