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How are the Downstreamers Boundless?

OGLimitless

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So, I think we all know the criteria for Tier 0 / Boundless known as:

"Characters who can affect objects which completely exceed the logical foundations of High 1-A, much like it exceeds the ones defining 1-A and below, meaning that all possible levels of High 1-A are exceeded, even an infinite or uncountably amount of such levels. This tier has no endpoint, and can be extended to any higher level just like the ones above.

Being "omnipotent" or any similar reasoning is not nearly enough to reach this tier on its own; however, such statements can be used as supporting evidence in conjunction with more substantial information."

Now, here is the justification for why the Downstreamers reach Tier 0 / Boundless

Boundless (The Old Ones are the creators of a mathematical superspace governed by subtle mathematical rules[5] in which all logically possible universes as described by various formal systems[6] exist, with Woodin cardinals included among its mathematical possibilities[7])

Now, it's obviously that the justification they gave us for the Downstreamers doesn't fit the criteria for Boundless at all. Maybe, just maybe, I'm having a misconception, so why would this be Boundless?
 
Because math, as our tiering system based on math
 
Scale to Woodin Cardinals ( scaling them to V = ultimate L would make 10x more sense but alr)
 
OGLimitless said:
further elaborate
Click to expand...
"Transcending Dimensions" isn't really a thing because everything that exists (by necessity) needs a dimensional axis to exist on. If something isn't physical in nature, it doesn't make sense to say that it "exists" because existence, as far as anyone can tell, is physical, meaning that it would be an incoherent statement. Even fictional stories where the source tells the reader that a character is "dimensionless", the character is almost always later described in physical details, implying physical existence (and therefore dimensional existence).

I'm glad that the wiki started relying more on hierarchies and mathematics when scaling 1-A characters and higher for this exact reason.
 
OGLimitless said:
Why would size of a cardinality qualify for Boundless though
Click to expand...
The size of a cardinal doesn't automatically qualify for boundless. It depends on how a verse utilizes that number.

for example, saying that a character has "3" power doesn't make sense. It only makes sense with added context-

"this character can destroy 3 cities"
"this character can destroy 3 universes"
"this character can destroy 3 higher levels of existence"
"this character can destroy 3 outerversal realms that are stacked on top of each other, each one trivializing the last into insignificance"
 
Iirc, the verse currently (well the downgrade still on going due to continuity problem). It is said to had multiple universes with all kind of possible universes that run on different mathematical law. Also there is a mathematical superspace that scale to Woodin Cardinal or Ultimate L something
 
Swerzye29038 said:
The size of a cardinal doesn't automatically qualify for boundless. It depends on how a verse utilizes that number.

for example, saying that a character has "3" power doesn't make sense. It only makes sense with added context-

"this character can destroy 3 cities"
"this character can destroy 3 universes"
"this character can destroy 3 higher levels of existence"
"this character can destroy 3 outerversal realms that are stacked on top of each other, each one trivializing the last into insignificance"
Click to expand...
Manifold does scale to the cardinals because they scale to the universes who has that cardinals (atleast for now)
 
Vietthai96 said:
Iirc, the verse currently (well the downgrade still on going due to continuity problem). It is said to had multiple universes with all kind of possible universes that run on different mathematical law. Also there is a mathematical superspace that scale to Woodin Cardinal or Ultimate L something
Click to expand...
Mathematics doesn't really scale anywhere though
 
Swerzye29038 said:
The size of a cardinal doesn't automatically qualify for boundless. It depends on how a verse utilizes that number.

for example, saying that a character has "3" power doesn't make sense. It only makes sense with added context-

"this character can destroy 3 cities"
"this character can destroy 3 universes"
"this character can destroy 3 higher levels of existence"
"this character can destroy 3 outerversal realms that are stacked on top of each other, each one trivializing the last into insignificance"
Click to expand...
Ok, so lets say real alephs exist in the verse, btw this is just a hypothetical, I'm not in reference to a specific verse. But lets hypothetically say there is this verse that contains real alephs and this highest it goes is aleph 2, would this realm scale to outer or not?
 
OGLimitless said:
Wait I don't really think that matters, again they use cardinal's for a quantification for a certain amount of dimensions, just because something is aleph 2 in size doesn't mean it would be the same as aleph 2 set of dimensions.
Click to expand...
the wiki doesn´t use dimensions for AP anymore
 
Livinmeme said:
not really, they stopped using dimensions as scale and now uses tracends stuff
Click to expand...

Low 1-A: Low Outerverse level​

Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers
Click to expand...

1-A: Outerverse level​

Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
No they still use it, so long as it meets the criteria for it, which is why I said "not inherently".
 
Swerzye29038 said:
"Transcending Dimensions" isn't really a thing because everything that exists (by necessity) needs a dimensional axis to exist on. If something isn't physical in nature, it doesn't make sense to say that it "exists" because existence, as far as anyone can tell, is physical, meaning that it would be an incoherent statement. Even fictional stories where the source tells the reader that a character is "dimensionless", the character is almost always later described in physical details, implying physical existence (and therefore dimensional existence).

I'm glad that the wiki started relying more on hierarchies and mathematics when scaling 1-A characters and higher for this exact reason.
Click to expand...
'well you see there are dimensions in my world that transcend each other in a Tier 1 way, but I am beyond the concept and so no matter how many transcendence a dimensioned being will never reach my level of power'

does that owkr
 
Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

oh my ******* god they changed it, ignoring
 
A spatial dimension that has transcendence is still a spatial dimension, which we use it. You are missing the point.
 
Last edited:
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