Honkai Star Rail Upgrades :Argenti 4-A feat is real

[Woomica]

Summary
This is a major upgrade for Honkai Star rail cast especially for the Astral Express,Xianzhou Luofu cast and the oncoming Penacony cast on this wiki
i will try my best to explain the upgrade so to start off
Feat
The feat comes from Argenti stating that he will pierce the belly of the sting causing the spams that will eject the express
The Sting in question is so large that it even posseses stars inside of the belly and its mouth
Before asking if the thing is actually real..yes it is real indeed as stated by welt yang himself
Scaling
I will use the standard 4-A calc for the starry sky
the main question that will be an issue is that the Feat in question is a piercing attack and not an regular blunt physical attack,
however even by the AP standards piercing attacks are supporitng for a higher rating

• When used with an equal amount of energy, sharp and spiky weapons tend to be able to overcome higher durability than blunt ones. However, this cannot be considered proper Durability Negation. If a sharp or pointy weapon is shown to have kinetic energy on the level of a certain tier, it can contribute towards the character receiving an unquantified "possibly higher" rating.

Now to question why use that when it grants "possibly higher rating" and not clear 4-A scaling
this is because albeit we see Argenti only pierce the sting,he was also showng battling the Traiblazer and by the end we see that the same Traiblazer wasnt injured in any way. In fact the Argenti praises traiblazer strength proving us that both Strenght and Durability of the Traiblazer is enough to sustain his piercing attacks so assuming the traiblazer had the same durability as the sting they would likely be easily harmed by his attacks which in this case doesnt happen.

• Going down the list we have Dan heng who is shown to be comparable to the Traiblazer and far stronger as the Imbibitor Lunae can also battle the Harmonious Choir who posseses a power of an Emanator
  down the list we have
• Phantylia as a Lord Ravager she is on the same level as the Emanators
• Jingyuan as a general of Xianzhou Loufu is no way inferior to the Lord Ravagers putting him on par with Emanators Phantylia and IL Dan Heng
• March 7th and Himeko, were able to battle against Harmonious Choir
• Kafka and Blade greatly combarable to the Express and Blade can clash against jingliu and dan heng
• Jingliu can easily overpower Yanqing causing him to use full power against her singular attack , easily stomped Blade in their fight is greatly comparable to Jingyuan and Dan Heng.
• Welt Yang likely superior to the express crew can also fight the Harmonious Choir alongside the crew.
• Also Argenti himself for the entire 4-A feat he made. (My dumbass forgot to add him here)

Speed scaling
With the recent removal of Honkai Impact 3rd from the page the relativistic scale coming from Welt Yang is also gone, charaters with Relativistic speed will be downgraded back to Sub-Relativistic coming from seele calc
everybody who showed any comparasion towards express,xianzhou cast,penacony cast, with Unknown speed will also get Sub-Relativistic speed on their profile
Note:
Characters from astral express should also get ther Xianzhou/Penacony key arc as thats where will 4-A scaling mainly be,since the herta space station/belobog arc scaling come from star devouring monster

 

[GarrixianXD]

Hmmm…

 

[GarrixianXD]

Fix some of your links. Seems like you linked entire videos than the timestamp itself.

 

[Woomica]

Fix some of your links. Seems like you linked entire videos than the timestamp itself.

some linked videos should have entire timestamp (jinglu vs blade) (yangqing vs jingliu) but i can fix them,which other video links are broken?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Now to question why use that when it grants "possibly higher rating" and not clear 4-A scaling
this is because albeit we see Argenti only pierce the sting,he was also showng battling the Traiblazer and by the end we see that the same Traiblazer wasnt injured in any way. In fact the Argenti praises traiblazer strength proving us that both Strenght and Durability of the Traiblazer is enough to sustain his piercing attacks so assuming the traiblazer had the same durability as the sting they would likely be easily harmed by his attacks which in this case doesnt happen.

I am mostly neutral on this, but I don't think this is a very strong point. The size difference between Argenti and the sting is ridiculous. Its like a mosquito being able to pierce a human + argenti is 4-C. Argenti was charging head on with the intention of piercing, a ramming like motion in one direction, while against the trailblazer there's nothing that indicates he tried such a move , and the trailblazer could have just dodged the slashes and thrusts, that would also qualify for being considered "strong". So big hmmmm to this whole part of the revision, don't count my vote yet. I want to see more discussion

With the recent removal of Honkai Impact 3rd from the page the relativistic scale coming from Welt Yang is also gone, charaters with Relativistic speed will be downgraded back to Sub-Relativistic coming from seele calc
everybody who showed any comparasion towards express,xianzhou cast,penacony cast, with Unknown speed will also get Sub-Relativistic speed on their profile

I disagree, Seele's calc comes from Blitzing Bronya's rifle, which Bronya used to fight the Express Trio when they first arrived in Jarilo. If they scale to the calc, then the whole feat is circular. Plus Seele snails Bronya twice (When the vagrants shot at Bronya and in the Seele Trailer). Plus Seele has no speed scaling with the casts of other worlds because of that. Maybe look for other speed feats if possible. I think Aventurine reacted to Orbital canon in Penacony. Phantylia's calc has her attack speed at Sub-Rel which could be good. But only applies to Xianzhou high tiers and onwards.

 

[Woomica]

I am mostly neutral on this, but I don't think this is a very strong point. The size difference between Argenti and the sting is ridiculous. Its like a mosquito being able to pierce a human + argenti is 4-C. Argenti was charging head on with the intention of piercing, a ramming like motion in one direction, while against the trailblazer there's nothing that indicates he tried such a move , and the trailblazer could have just dodged the slashes and thrusts, that would also qualify for being considered "strong". So big hmmmm to this whole part of the revision, don't count my vote yet. I want to see more discussion


I disagree, Seele's calc comes from Blitzing Bronya's rifle, which Bronya used to fight the Express Trio when they first arrived in Jarilo. If they scale to the calc, then the whole feat is circular. Plus Seele snails Bronya twice (When the vagrants shot at Bronya and in the Seele Trailer). Plus Seele has no speed scaling with the casts of other worlds because of that. Maybe look for other speed feats if possible. I think Aventurine reacted to Orbital canon in Penacony. Also Phantylia's calc has her attack speed at 0.09c. That one may be really good but only scales to Xianzhou high tiers and onwards

i can change the speed scale using that calc if others dont mind

 

[Woomica]

I am mostly neutral on this, but I don't think this is a very strong point. The size difference between Argenti and the sting is ridiculous. Its like a mosquito being able to pierce a human + argenti is 4-C. Argenti was charging head on with the intention of piercing, a ramming like motion in one direction, while against the trailblazer there's nothing that indicates he tried such a move , and the trailblazer could have just dodged the slashes and thrusts, that would also qualify for being considered "strong". So big hmmmm to this whole part of the revision, don't count my vote yet. I want to see more discussion

litteral first attack argenti does in game is legit stabbing you in the chest why that wouldnt happen in their fight? not only that but majority of the fights in hsr happened In game except several cutscenes in which one overpowered another (jinglu vs yangqing/blade) or (holding back acheron/firefly) i dont rly see why would that not be used in this case too?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

litteral first attack argenti does in game is legit stabbing you in the chest why that wouldnt happen in their fight? not only that but majority of the fights in hsr happened In game except several cutscenes in which one overpovered another (jinglu vs yangqing/blade) or (holding back acheron/firefly) i dont rly see why would that not be used in this case too?

My fault and saying he would never do it I concede there. Although its still a telegraphed and easier to dodge move meaning it could've been dodged or parried. What you're implying kinda, is that Argenti say tries to stab the trailblazer in the chest or wherever but the trailblazer is tanky enough that it either doesn't go that deep or can't get in at all which would justify the Traiblazer not bleeding out or something. However, Argenti and Trailblazer skill wise and speed wise are competitive so Trailblazer never should be getting stabbed like that. Them blocking and parrying each other would also allow that outcome of neither of them are badly injured to happen.
It is also awkward cause Argenti and Trailblazer are competitive each other (Even according to his profile) in strength. If Trailblazer can withstand Argenti's pierces to this degree, then trailblazer is way way more durable than Argenti due to the nature of pierce damage. If this is your hill though then sure.
I am open to changing my mind here, but I'm skeptical so far.

 

[Woomica]

My fault and saying he would never do it I concede there. Although its still a telegraphed and easier to dodge move meaning it could've been dodged or parried. What you're implying kinda, is that Argenti say tries to stab the trailblazer in the chest or wherever but the trailblazer is tanky enough that it either doesn't go that deep or can't get in at all which would justify the Traiblazer not bleeding out or something. However, Argenti and Trailblazer skill wise and speed wise are competitive so Trailblazer never should be getting stabbed like that. Them blocking and parrying each other would also allow that outcome of neither of them are badly injured to happen.
It is also awkward cause Argenti and Trailblazer are competitive each other (Even according to his profile) in strength. If Trailblazer can withstand Argenti's pierces to this degree, then trailblazer is way way more durable than Argenti due to the nature of pierce damage. If this is your hill though then sure.
I am open to changing my mind here, but I'm skeptical so far.

We cant rly assume the fight was just dodging/clashing or stabbing each other till death since the fight happened in game,however we cant go and say that neither of that never happened,similarly how we can assume that phantylia threw a litteral star at us we can assume that argenti stabbed traiblazer once(or twice or any amount of times)and survived.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

I am leaning to agree with the OP overall, mainly about the speed for sure

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

We cant rly assume the fight was just dodging/clashing or stabbing each other till death since the fight happened in game,however we cant go and say that neither of that never happened,similarly how we can assume that phantylia threw a litteral star at us we can assume that argenti stabbed traiblazer once(or twice or any amount of times)and survived.

It’s cause so my perspective on gameplay fights like these is going for what’s most logical and how the combatants talk after the fight is over.

Taking Phantylia’s feat as an example at its most literal/stretched one could just use our Sun’s mass and get High 4-C for it. But in this case you look at the feat, and calc it as High 5-A. Or you can just say the feat doesn’t exist. But since the Ravagers generally are shown to be Tier 5 and up that needs to be argued that it isn’t literal rather than being assumed as the norm/expected. (oh and by the way I mean the revision is already underway, just sneak in Phantylia’s calc into the OP so she can get her Lifting strength rating and attack speed)

Meanwhile it’s safer to assume Argenti never got a clean stab off on Trailblazer, at best he got some shallow slashes off, since against an equal opponent, a clean stab is a decisive loss or at least would be treated as serious. Cause again this implies Trailblazer >>> Argenti instead.
However this may just be something we just can’t agree on, if this is such a case then I’ll see if I just get outvoted or not. If so then I’ll accept it

 

[Woomica]

It’s cause so my perspective on gameplay fights like these is going for what’s most logical and how the combatants talk after the fight is over.

Taking Phantylia’s feat as an example at its most literal/stretched one could just use our Sun’s mass and get High 4-C for it. But in this case you look at the feat, and calc it as High 5-A. Or you can just say the feat doesn’t exist. But since the Ravagers generally are shown to be Tier 5 and up that needs to be argued that it isn’t literal rather than being assumed as the norm/expected. (oh and by the way I mean the revision is already underway, just sneak in Phantylia’s calc into the OP so she can get her Lifting strength rating and attack speed)

I get this and i can slide the calc tomorrow or later since ill study and then sleep after this and will refute rest of the args tomorrow

Meanwhile it’s safer to assume Argenti never got a clean stab off on Trailblazer, at best he got some shallow slashes off, since against an equal opponent, a clean stab is a decisive loss or at least would be treated as serious. Cause again this implies Trailblazer >>> Argenti instead.
However this may just be something we just can’t agree on, if this is such a case then I’ll see if I just get outvoted or not. If so then I’ll accept it

It is and it isnt,based of the gameplay just how we tanked phantylia star attack,we can also assume we were able to tank the stab,or if you wanna push it got damage bht not dangerous or lethal one,regardless majority of the scaling on the wiki regardless of the game accepts the fights as clear scaling to one another so if for example argenti is now 4-A trailblazer will be 4-A too since otheriwse if 4-A were to fight 4-C 4-A will just one shot
Thats how i generally see how scaling is based on this wiki hence why i use it.Im gonna study and then sleep and see if anything changes.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

• Going down the list we have Dan heng who is shown to be comparable to the Traiblazer and far stronger as the Imbibitor Lunae can also battle the Harmonious Choir who posseses a power of an Emanator
  down the list we have
• Phantylia as a Lord Ravager she is on the same level as the Emanators
• Jingyuan as a general of Xianzhou Loufu is no way inferior to the Lord Ravagers putting him on par with Emanators Phantylia and IL Dan Heng
• March 7th and Himeko, were able to battle against Harmonious Choir
• Kafka and Blade greatly combarable to the Express and Blade can clash against jingliu and dan heng
• Jingliu can easily overpower Yanqing causing him to use full power against her singular attack , easily stomped Blade in their fight is greatly comparable to Jingyuan and Dan Heng.
• Welt Yang likely superior to the express crew can also fight the Harmonious Choir alongside the crew.
• Also Argenti himself for the entire 4-A feat he made. (My dumbass forgot to add him here)

The ones who should be in this list too are:

• Kafka, who easily defeated Blade in the past and can fight against March 7th, Welt and The Trailblazer at the same time
• Post-Xianzhou Luofu Arc Yanqing, who was able to fight against The Trailblazer in a 1v1 during the mission "Letter From A Strange Woman"
• Penacony Arc Human Dan Heng, who was able to fight and damage Harmonious Choir, scaling even higher than that as the Imbibitor Lunae, while his Pre-Penacony Arc self should remain as 4-C in his Human Form and 4-A in his Vidyadhara Form

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

It is and it isnt,based of the gameplay just how we tanked phantylia star attack,we can also assume we were able to tank the stab,or if you wanna push it got damage bht not dangerous or lethal one,regardless majority of the scaling on the wiki regardless of the game accepts the fights as clear scaling to one another so if for example argenti is now 4-A trailblazer will be 4-A too since otheriwse if 4-A were to fight 4-C 4-A will just one shot
Thats how i generally see how scaling is based on this wiki hence why i use it.Im gonna study and then sleep and see if anything changes.

Thing is with the star case that is blunt force, so nothing indicates it ‘should’ be a problem if the characters get tagged by it, that and the difference in surface area between said star and the Express crew. So the characters tanking it is fine and does not make the scaling any weirder.

The reason I’m pressing the piercing point is me saying if we are going with this. Argenti’s justifications should be updated in order for such to be consistent (Idk like removing anything saying comparable to Trailblazer in any department besides speed and skill, and making Trailblazers that they can tank stabs from Argenti). Cause I did say, if this is your hill to die on then sure.

Fights are scaling and I do agree on that part.
Just that how the fight impacts scaling can be case by case in specific instances like this one. Either Argenti is way weaker than Trailblazer and keeps up with his stabbing and slashing attacks (Trailblazer would decently upscale with Argenti being the bottom of the 4-A characters) or Argenti and Trailblazer are competitive with each other in almost every way but now 4-A is invalid.

I’ll also continue later tomorrow, it’s late in my timezone.

 

[Avengershows]

I will reply tommorow

 

[GarrixianXD]

The AP section looks good but I don't see a need to take in sharpness as a factor. Sharpness correlates with a concentration of force within a thin area, which is proportional to the pressure. Perhaps "possibly higher via piercing damage" could work; to harm someone with a blade, the difference between the pressure output cannot be significant so giving it an unclear 4-A scaling is just unnecessary.

As for speed, I agree with Jack.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Yeah, after reading with more attention, I still support the 4-A upgrade, but I have to agree with @Jackof_noTrades068 regarding the speed, personally I think that the characters by the time of Xianzhou Luofu Arc pretty much scales to Seele's speed

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

disagree, Seele's calc comes from Blitzing Bronya's rifle, which Bronya used to fight the Express Trio when they first arrived in Jarilo. If they scale to the calc, then the whole feat is circular. Plus Seele snails Bronya twice (When the vagrants shot at Bronya and in the Seele Trailer). Plus Seele has no speed scaling with the casts of other worlds because of that. Maybe look for other speed feats if possible. I think Aventurine reacted to Orbital canon in Penacony. Phantylia's calc has her attack speed at Sub-Rel which could be good. But only applies to Xianzhou high tiers and onwards.

I agree here and brought this up in the main thread. Bronya level characters should simply scale to Supersonic based off the bullet she dodged.

Neutral about the AP stuff.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Jack on speed. As for AP, it looks cool, but I also think inverse square law might be helpful here.

 

[Avengershows]

I agree with Jack on speed.
And as DDMedeus said, inverse square law needs to be applied because this is just not how physics work. As Jack said, a mosquito being able to pierce your skin doesn't mean it has greater durability. I'll eyeball calc but, assuming that the stars eaten are sun sized and are directly plastered on the bugs internal structures:

E = 5.693e+41 J (GBE of the Sun, there's probably a better value to use but I'm entirely eyeballing here)
r = 696340000 m
I = 5.693e+41/(4π((696340000)^2)) = 9.3430491e+22 J/m2 (or 1.8686098e+23 J/m2 if you want to say only half a star came into contact there, but this isn't how you'd calculate that)
This means that you'd need to focus 22.3~44.6 teratons of tnt per square meter to be able to do the same amount of damage as a star.

Assuming that Argenti scales to Himeko's canon for example you'd have:
E = 1.5272962e+25 J
r = 0.01 m (assuming the size of a spear tip, I don't know it off the top of my head)
I = 1.5272962e+25/((4π((0.01)^2)) = 1.2153837e+28 J/m2 which means that Argenti was throwing out around 2.9 exatons of tnt per square meter.

This is a very heavily eyeballed calculation, and it needs to be properly done, but I just demonstrated how it'd look within ~2 orders of magnitude

 

[Woomica]

The ones who should be in this list too are:

• Kafka, who easily defeated Blade in the past and can fight against March 7th, Welt and The Trailblazer at the same time
• Post-Xianzhou Luofu Arc Yanqing, who was able to fight against The Trailblazer in a 1v1 during the mission "Letter From A Strange Woman"
• Penacony Arc Human Dan Heng, who was able to fight and damage Harmonious Choir, scaling even higher than that as the Imbibitor Lunae, while his Pre-Penacony Arc self should remain as 4-C in his Human Form and 4-A in his Vidyadhara Form

okay thanks for that

Thing is with the star case that is blunt force, so nothing indicates it ‘should’ be a problem if the characters get tagged by it, that and the difference in surface area between said star and the Express crew. So the characters tanking it is fine and does not make the scaling any weirder.

The reason I’m pressing the piercing point is me saying if we are going with this. Argenti’s justifications should be updated in order for such to be consistent (Idk like removing anything saying comparable to Trailblazer in any department besides speed and skill, and making Trailblazers that they can tank stabs from Argenti). Cause I did say, if this is your hill to die on then sure.

Fights are scaling and I do agree on that part.
Just that how the fight impacts scaling can be case by case in specific instances like this one. Either Argenti is way weaker than Trailblazer and keeps up with his stabbing and slashing attacks (Trailblazer would decently upscale with Argenti being the bottom of the 4-A characters) or Argenti and Trailblazer are competitive with each other in almost every way but now 4-A is invalid.

I’ll also continue later tomorrow, it’s late in my timezone.

I dont mind downscaling argenti if thats how you see the entire 4-A thing,as long as i can make a crt pass im fine if he doenst scale fully to 4-A

I agree with Jack on speed. As for AP, it looks cool, but I also think inverse square law might be helpful here.

so what can we do abt the crt now?

 

[Avengershows]

I dont mind downscaling argenti if thats how you see the entire 4-A thing,as long as i can make a crt pass im fine if he doenst scale fully to 4-A

Welt shouldn't scale to anything beyond H6-A anyway, in Honkai 3rd, it's outright stated that the energy output of most metamorphized Herrschers (who are stronger than regular one, aka who are stronger than Welt) does not go beyond 712.5 Petatons, which very obviously here clashes with the 4-A scaling, especially since it's made dubious as to whether or not Welt even retains his power from his hay-day, which is already less than 712.5 Petatons.
This, combined with the fact that the surface area of a spear and a star are different, giving different levels of power needed to pierce the Giant Sting, very very obviously points to a fact that 4-A scaling just does not work. Neither via physics nor via actual game lore.

 

[GarrixianXD]

but I also think inverse square law might be helpful here.

Considering the entire distant environment -- on a cosmic scale was affected and inside the belly of the sting, I'm sure Elizhaa's calculation should work.

I agree with Jack on speed.
And as DDMedeus said, inverse square law needs to be applied because this is just not how physics work. As Jack said, a mosquito being able to pierce your skin doesn't mean it has greater durability. I'll eyeball calc but, assuming that the stars eaten are sun sized and are directly plastered on the bugs internal structures:

E = 5.693e+41 J (GBE of the Sun, there's probably a better value to use but I'm entirely eyeballing here)
r = 696340000 m
I = 5.693e+41/(4π((696340000)^2)) = 9.3430491e+22 J/m2 (or 1.8686098e+23 J/m2 if you want to say only half a star came into contact there, but this isn't how you'd calculate that)
This means that you'd need to focus 22.3~44.6 teratons of tnt per square meter to be able to do the same amount of damage as a star.

Assuming that Argenti scales to Himeko's canon for example you'd have:
E = 1.5272962e+25 J
r = 0.01 m (assuming the size of a spear tip, I don't know it off the top of my head)
I = 1.5272962e+25/((4π((0.01)^2)) = 1.2153837e+28 J/m2 which means that Argenti was throwing out around 2.9 exatons of tnt per square meter.

This is a very heavily eyeballed calculation, and it needs to be properly done, but I just demonstrated how it'd look within ~2 orders of magnitude

Elizhaa's calculation already implemented the inverse square law, I have no idea what you're talking about here and I'm pretty sure you don't exactly know how the Inverse Square Law works.

Welt shouldn't scale to anything beyond H6-A anyway, in Honkai 3rd, it's outright stated that the energy output of most metamorphized Herrschers (who are stronger than regular one, aka who are stronger than Welt) does not go beyond 712.5 Petatons, which very obviously here clashes with the 4-A scaling, especially since it's made dubious as to whether or not Welt even retains his power from his hay-day, which is already less than 712.5 Petatons.
This, combined with the fact that the surface area of a spear and a star are different, giving different levels of power needed to pierce the Giant Sting, very very obviously points to a fact that 4-A scaling just does not work. Neither via physics nor via actual game lore.

HI3 has been nuked and shouldn't be discussed here at all.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

HI3 has been nuked and shouldn't be discussed here at all.

Except HI3 is still connected to HSR and should be included in discussions of scaling.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Except HI3 is still connected to HSR and should be included in discussions of scaling.

No. The scaling chain has entirely been cut off; everything that regards Welt's Hi3 key has been deleted, not even the calculations have any impact on the HSR scaling. Also, Avergershows straight up said something that "Welt shouldn't scale to anything beyond H6-A anyway", which wasn't even approved on a CRT and is objectively wrong even before the deletion of Hi3. FYI, Hi3 was 4-A and Welt scaled to that rating.

 

[Woomica]

Welt shouldn't scale to anything beyond H6-A anyway, in Honkai 3rd, it's outright stated that the energy output of most metamorphized Herrschers (who are stronger than regular one, aka who are stronger than Welt) does not go beyond 712.5 Petatons, which very obviously here clashes with the 4-A scaling, especially since it's made dubious as to whether or not Welt even retains his power from his hay-day, which is already less than 712.5 Petatons.
This, combined with the fact that the surface area of a spear and a star are different, giving different levels of power needed to pierce the Giant Sting, very very obviously points to a fact that 4-A scaling just does not work. Neither via physics nor via actual game lore.

i wont argue anything abt math and whatever scaling you bringed up but i heavily dissagre with the "outright statement" which as "Can" and "most" with the fact our old man welt blatantly tanks the damage from Harmonious Choir and no there isnt any Imaginary barrier here to protect him, nor you can argue that he can dura neg with his abilities when there is nothing abt that on his profile. So even if you want to use any of that you should make a litteral 4-C downgrade crt, then remake honkai profiles,downgrade welt and whatnot just so you can use that statement...

 

[Woomica]

anyway i wont bother with all the hi3 shit ill just wait the staff input here and conclude crt i dont want irrelevant derailings rn

 

[Avengershows]

HI3 has been nuked and shouldn't be discussed here at all.

Nuking it doesn't make it nonexistent, it still affects scaling, whether you like it or not. You can't pick and choose what's canon and what isn't, and there's no rule forbidding me from using materials that aren't indexed on the site. Also, let's not forget your reaction to HI3rd being nerfed being "why not just delete the verse". I'm not going to throw any accusations agianst you, but your intent is pretty clear.

i wont argue anything abt math and whatever scaling you bringed up but i heavily dissagre with the "outright statement" which as "Can" and "most" with the fact our old man welt blatantly tanks the damage from Harmonious Choir and no there isnt any Imaginary barrier here to protect him, nor you can argue that he can dura neg with his abilities when there is nothing abt that on his profile. So even if you want to use any of that you should make a litteral 4-C downgrade crt, then remake honkai profiles,downgrade welt and whatnot just so you can use that statement...

This is an incredibly stupid take.
MOST METAMORPHIZED, metamorphized Herrschers are stronger than regular Herrschers, which Welt is a part of. He did not undergo metamorphisis.
Maybe refreshing you on what the statement is will help you stop being obtuse:
"But rule or not, making a "bomb" enough to destroy a world or creating a new bubble universe requires massive energy..."
"Energy of this level can easily surpass the maximum power output of most metamorphise Herrscher individuals."
Your entire argument for this relies on ignoring and twisting thing the canon so you can have a higher rating.

Elizhaa's calculation already implemented the inverse square law, I have no idea what you're talking about here and I'm pretty sure you don't exactly know how the Inverse Square Law works.

You have no clue what you're talking about. The calculation above took into account the explosion yield formula and assumed that the Giant Sting created the space within itself, which is blatantly stupid. It didn't.
Even the calc they use as a basis outright says "creating or destroying". Please don't throw these backhanded insults when you're blatantly wrong.

No. The scaling chain has entirely been cut off; everything that regards Welt's Hi3 key has been deleted, not even the calculations have any impact on the HSR scaling. Also, Avergershows straight up said something that "Welt shouldn't scale to anything beyond H6-A anyway", which wasn't even approved on a CRT and is objectively wrong even before the deletion of Hi3. FYI, Hi3 was 4-A and Welt scaled to that rating.

The scaling chain might've been cut off, but HI3rd Welt is still cannonically the same Welt as in HSR, there is absolutely no reason not to use things pertaining to him in HI3rd. Unless you want to say that you wish to defile the canon and intentionally ignore canon parts of a character for your own sake and desire. Your entire argument relies in HI3rd being deleted off the wiki, but that doesn't make it not canon. As for HI3rd being 4A beforehand, just because it was doesn't mean it was accurate.
Maybe, just maybe, stop being so obsessed with giving everything higher ratings and getting salty when you can't.

 

[Avengershows]

anyway i wont bother with all the hi3 shit ill just wait the staff input here and conclude crt i dont want irrelevant derailings rn

It's not "irrelevant derailing" it's the literal canon which y'all are choosing to ignore so you can wank the series.

 

[Woomica]

Nuking it doesn't make it nonexistent, it still affects scaling, whether you like it or not. You can't pick and choose what's canon and what isn't, and there's no rule forbidding me from using materials that aren't indexed on the site. Also, let's not forget your reaction to HI3rd being nerfed being "why not just delete the verse". I'm not going to throw any accusations agianst you, but your intent is pretty clear.

This is an incredibly stupid take.
MOST METAMORPHIZED, metamorphized Herrschers are stronger than regular Herrschers, which Welt is a part of. He did not undergo metamorphisis.
Maybe refreshing you on what the statement is will help you stop being obtuse:
"But rule or not, making a "bomb" enough to destroy a world or creating a new bubble universe requires massive energy..."
"Energy of this level can easily surpass the maximum power output of most metamorphise Herrscher individuals."
Your entire argument for this relies on ignoring and twisting thing the canon so you can have a higher rating.

Not at all if the latter is showng to battle someone on a much higher scale than the statement itself why do i have to rely on something that "should" downgrade him when he in fact still has a feats better than that..well unless you wanna retcon every single feat after that statement which is okay hsr is apparently not canon

It's not "irrelevant derailing" it's the literal canon which y'all are choosing to ignore so you can wank the series.

whos wanking lol you are using the hi3rd statement that even gets contradicted by its own feats in its own game and lore well whatever makes you happy

 

[Woomica]

You have to basically nuke entire hsr scaling just so you can use that one statement that has nothing to do with any of the hsr characters except welt and even he fights the characters on the higher AP than the statement you want to lock everyone behind

 

[GarrixianXD]

Nuking it doesn't make it nonexistent, it still affects scaling, whether you like it or not. You can't pick and choose what's canon and what isn't, and there's no rule forbidding me from using materials that aren't indexed on the site. Also, let's not forget your reaction to HI3rd being nerfed being "why not just delete the verse". I'm not going to throw any accusations agianst you, but your intent is pretty clear.

Yadiyadiya.

You have no clue what you're talking about. The calculation above took into account the explosion yield formula and assumed that the Giant Sting created the space within itself, which is blatantly stupid. It didn't.
Even the calc they use as a basis outright says "creating or destroying". Please don't throw these backhanded insults when you're blatantly wrong.

And everything was absorbed and imbued with the energy of The Sting.

The scaling chain might've been cut off, but HI3rd Welt is still cannonically the same Welt as in HSR, there is absolutely no reason not to use things pertaining to him in HI3rd. Unless you want to say that you wish to defile the canon and intentionally ignore canon parts of a character for your own sake and desire. Your entire argument relies in HI3rd being deleted off the wiki, but that doesn't make it not canon. As for HI3rd being 4A beforehand, just because it was doesn't mean it was accurate.
Maybe, just maybe, stop being so obsessed with giving everything higher ratings and getting salty when you can't.

No CRT not valid

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I dont mind downscaling argenti if thats how you see the entire 4-A thing,as long as i can make a crt pass im fine if he doenst scale fully to 4-A

Btw with the current inverse square law propositions I’m hearing that also works perfectly fine either option I’m chill with

No. The scaling chain has entirely been cut off; everything that regards Welt's Hi3 key has been deleted, not even the calculations have any impact on the HSR scaling. Also, Avergershows straight up said something that "Welt shouldn't scale to anything beyond H6-A anyway", which wasn't even approved on a CRT and is objectively wrong even before the deletion of Hi3. FYI, Hi3 was 4-A and Welt scaled to that rating.

I disagree that there is no cross scaling since both Welt’s character story and his “Keeping up with Honkai star rail vid” say HI3 Welt>= HSR Welt
also the 4-A rating was on route to be downgraded in a revision.
However I do agree that this should be irrelevant to this revision. Rather pass this revision or whatever and let Welt and HSR characters be downgraded later if we agree on that front. We don’t need to discuss this now, as such will be very important to building up the HI3 verse again
Let that revision come later

 

[GarrixianXD]

I disagree that there is no cross scaling since both Welt’s character story and his “Keeping up with Honkai star rail vid” say HI3 Welt>= HSR Welt
also the 4-A rating was on route to be downgraded in a revision.

Well, it wasn't. But yeah, just drop the Hi3 topic.

 

[Avengershows]

Not at all if the latter is showng to battle someone on a much higher scale than the statement itself why do i have to rely on something that "should" downgrade him when he in fact still has a feats better than that..well unless you wanna retcon every single feat after that statement which is okay hsr is apparently not canon

You're intentionally twisting those feats WHILST THEY ARE NOT ACCURATE.
Does a mosquito that pierces your skin scale to your body exploding?
No, no it doesn't.
Every feat, every instance you can think of that's nearing 4-A has to be extremely wanked for it to be even remotely feasible.

And everything was absorbed and imbued with the energy of The Sting.

Except the Sting did not explode? Nor did it create those stars? It ate them one by one.

You have to basically nuke entire hsr scaling just so you can use that one statement that has nothing to do with any of the hsr characters except welt and even he fights the characters on the higher AP than the statement you want to lock everyone behind

No you don't, literally nearly every feat is sub stellar in HSR with the exception of Aeon feats.
The fact that y'all wanna continue ignoring any counter argument and shoving things under the rug (such as the entirety of HI3rd, where no stellar feat was ever shown, and all statements pertaining to Herrschers were continental or less.

Well, it wasn't. But yeah, just drop the Hi3 topic.

It was, but then you arbitrairly decided to delete the verse which you even suggested after it was made clear in a discord chat that it was going to get nerfed. Makes me wonder why you did it

 

[Woomica]

No you don't, literally nearly every feat is sub stellar in HSR with the exception of Aeon feats.
The fact that y'all wanna continue ignoring any counter argument and shoving things under the rug (such as the entirety of HI3rd, where no stellar feat was ever shown, and all statements pertaining to Herrschers were continental or less.

if thats the case why is dan heng 4-C then,why is everyone on the page 4C???? even with the made crt abt it it was still rejected lol so nah there is a clearly stellar feat right there lol

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

We're getting off track here. Whatever HI3 related should be discussed somewhere else and I prefer not to get this thread cluttered to the point it gets unresolved.

The only priority in this thread is whether or not the inverse square law calc is valid or not + the speed scaling.

 

[Avengershows]

if thats the case why is dan heng 4-C then,why is everyone on the page 4C???? even with the made crt abt it it was still rejected lol so nah there is a clearly stellar feat right there lol

Because people scaled them to those levels? You do know profiles here are user-made and scaled, right?
They're not infalliable.

We're getting off track here. Whatever HI3 related should be discussed somewhere else and I prefer not to get this thread cluttered to the point it gets unresolved.

The only priority in this thread is whether or not the inverse square law calc is valid or not + the speed scaling.

It's not, it assumes that the Sting created the stars within itself and the space via explosion, which is just not what happened.
It also does not address the fact that regardless of those factors, a spear with multi continental energy focused in it's tip would still do more damage than a star crashing into the Sting's body.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Except the Sting did not explode? Nor did it create those stars? It ate them one by one.

"one by one" -- the entire cosmic environment was absorbed in a matter of seconds. If a celestial object were to be absorbed then reaching its level of GBE would be required.

It was, but then you arbitrairly decided to delete the verse which you even suggested after it was made clear in a discord chat that it was going to get nerfed. Makes me wonder why you did it

Profiles were ass in-general. Anyways, enough Hi3 discussion.

 

[Avengershows]

"one by one" -- the entire cosmic environment was absorbed in a matter of seconds. If a celestial object were to be absorbed then reaching its level of GBE would be required.

Scans?

Profiles were ass in-general.

Yet your immediate reaction to a nerf being prepared is to say "why not just delete the verse".
The profiles were absolutely not in such an unrecoverable state, they could've easily been fixed. It takes more effort to remake the profiles than to just fix the links and change around a bit of the text.