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We are sure that Welt even a good part of its power unlike Honkai Impact 3rd?
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Honkai: Star Rail Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Giannysmag
- Start date
We are sure that Welt even a good part of its power unlike Honkai Impact 3rd?
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Welt has knowledge about imaginary spaces, as shown when he ripped apart Sirin's imaginary space with his bare hands in Second Eruption.
It's also stated in his character details that it is unknown if he retains his power that he had in his prime; which implies a very strong "possibly", and it is also implied he still has his Herrscher powers in HSR too.
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AlipheeseXIV
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Not sure about that, the main thing is that we don't have any feats of him seriously fighting against any HSR characters atm so saying that HSR scales to 2-C purely because Welt does is iffy. Especially when he hasn't even used his authority/main herrscher abilities outside of basic gravity manipulation it's just unlikely they scale to him given what we've seen so far. It's also implied that Welt didn't even break so much as a sweat during the Phantylia fight which correct me if I'm wrong but is currently the best we have for HSR scaling atm (outside of statements & whatnot) the only person who was really exhausted after the fight was Jing Yuan
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"星系" is the term that Hoyo uses to refer to individual leaf worlds on the Tree, of which the sizes vary greatly from solar-system sized to several trillion light years in diameter. It's considered a mistranslation because the word "galaxy" does not encompass the correct contextual terminology that Honkai has been using since GGZ. This is why we call it "star system" instead, because the phrase doesn't inherently have misleading connotations, even if not entirely accurate.
From what I remember, 65% is when Welt fought Ryusuke. The fight took place before the Honkai was defeated and before Welt fought Kevin, after which we know he was stronger than he was in Second Eruption. The reason we don't directly scale Welt to his strength in Hi3rd is because we don't know how much power he retained after Kiana sealed Honkai on the Moon.
All we know is that he can still use his Reason Authority, but we don't know how much of it or how much raw energy he still has compared to his prime.
AlipheeseXIV
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Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, that's also my understanding. While he has retained a pretty great sum of his original powers we haven't seen him fully utilize his skill set against anyone in HSR yet compared to other characters from honkai like Sirin, Ryusuke or Kevin to name some examples. I also don't think we will see him do that for quite some time given that at present most HSR high tiers like Aeons and whatnot can only currently be highballed to universal at best via statements/implications but no outright showings and atm I don't think there's any higher dimensional spatial hax going on or anything of that matter correct me if I'm wrong
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Ruan Mei is sociopathic af wtf
AlipheeseXIV
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Giannysmag
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Lmao
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Ruan Mei is disgustingly OP, I just pulled her for just memes and she came out anyway, so I build her, and the results is that she is really broken, mainly in the Simulated Universe that depending the amount of blessings do you have, you can pretty much defeat a Boss's 1st phase just by entering the battle with her skill
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Whatever thread that was, it's either dead or outdated. Any official discussion on the tiering of Honkai 3rd is on-hold until a CRT specifically addressing it is posted.
While on the topic, my stance hasn't changed since the latest CRT - while I believe the cosmology is Tier 1, I do not believe any of the characters (with the potential exceptions of Cocoon Kiana and the Aeons) scale to Tier 1. The last discussion kind of ended without my response, but the previous argument centered around dimensional hax scaling to attack potency via UES, which would be valid for most verses.
My counter-argument was that a character would not physically scale to the full effect of a chain reaction if all they did was use their own energy to start it. Case in point, Otto did not literally drive a wedge into the Imaginary Tree to create a new timeline for Kallen; he was speaking in metaphors as he always did when it concerned the Tree. What he actually did was that he used the Tree to travel back in time to kill the Honkai Beast that would've killed Kallen, thereby creating an alternate timeline where she survives. The alternate timeline being created was nothing more than an extension of the Tree's functions as a representative of the Many Worlds Interpretation, and the only feat Otto performed under his own power was travelling back in time and killing the Honkai beast.
Furthermore, UES wouldn't even apply to dimensional hax, as all dimensional hax is performed through Herrscher Authorities, of which their mechanisms are conceptual in nature. Concept Manip does not scale to UES because its effects are abstract and unquantifiable.
TL;DR Honkai 3rd characters have smurfy Tier 1-ish hax, but none of it scales to the user's regular AP.
On a side note, I also realize this would perhaps invalidate our current 4-A tiering as well, since it comes from Elysia's creation and telekinetic feats with Origin, but that's what a CRT discussion is for.
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Do they have any other Tier 4 feat to scale to or nah?
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IIRC they're all statements. There's An-Utu being compared to supernovae, so those tanking it would scale accordingly, but that's assuming the statement is valid. Same goes for Dea Anchora's "star-shattering" attacks. Elysia's "hands able to re-arrange the stars in the night sky" is possible, but that's the least valid of the bunch since it's implicitly referring to her Origin Authority.
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Dang, do we even have Tier 5 feats?
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The best I can remember is Sirin's meteors having a very high end in the High 6-A Tier and Kevin being 100x stronger than that feat
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The whole Authority = Concept thing would definitely need some discussion. Cuz if everything performed via Herrscher Authority is conceptual, then literally none of the Herrschers physically scale to their AP, which just isn't true in a lot of cases.
Rather than just outright not scaling Authorities to AP, we should just keep in mind that the full feats of Herrschers don't necessarily scale to their regular abilities if we don't know the exact function of said Authorities in respect to achieving said feats, or if we do know, whether said functions are valid to scale to UES.
For example, Bronya should still scale to the creation of her constructs due to the function of Reason being "converting Honkai energy into conventional energy, and thus, real mass". On the other hand, as Origin's function is (as far as we've been able to figure out) wish-granting, then effects produced by it shouldn't scale.
It boils down to whether the mechanics of the hax can be considered quantifiable in real-world physics terms. If it is, then it can scale. If it isn't, then it can't.
Rather than just outright not scaling Authorities to AP, we should just keep in mind that the full feats of Herrschers don't necessarily scale to their regular abilities if we don't know the exact function of said Authorities in respect to achieving said feats, or if we do know, whether said functions are valid to scale to UES.
For example, Bronya should still scale to the creation of her constructs due to the function of Reason being "converting Honkai energy into conventional energy, and thus, real mass". On the other hand, as Origin's function is (as far as we've been able to figure out) wish-granting, then effects produced by it shouldn't scale.
It boils down to whether the mechanics of the hax can be considered quantifiable in real-world physics terms. If it is, then it can scale. If it isn't, then it can't.
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How does this thread have 22 pages already lmfao?
Anyway pretty sure for SR we should get at least tier 3 ravagers though do we know if the Aeons are above the comoslogy?
I haven't really followed it and the entries in the SU is kinda there. Anyone having difficulties with gold and gears? Not willing to try higher than conundrum 2 rip.
Anyway pretty sure for SR we should get at least tier 3 ravagers though do we know if the Aeons are above the comoslogy?
I haven't really followed it and the entries in the SU is kinda there. Anyone having difficulties with gold and gears? Not willing to try higher than conundrum 2 rip.
AlipheeseXIV
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I disagree with this, I refuse to believe someone as smart as Otto would merely stop a single honkai beast from killing Kallen there and then when it only solves the immediate issue at hand not the core of it. Kallen is still a Kaslana who'd risk her life to save people, it's engraved in her soul. This would be counterintuitive to how Kallen died in the first place because Otto was the one who released that honkai beast to save her from her execution and he underestimated her Kaslana nature resulting in her death, this would quite literally be him making the same mistake which just isn't consistent with his character or the story. It's much more consistent for him to have literally driven a wedge into the Imaginary Tree to guarantee her safety, especially when you factor in that there are other easier ways of him saving Kallen that wouldn't of taken him 500 years let alone costing him his life and to just get this out of the way I'm not trying to argue the validity of Otto's feat whether it's tier 1 or 2 or whatever doesn't matter to me I'm just disagreeing with your reason for assuming that he didn't drive a wedge into the tree it's just inconsistent
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Where is this written in the standards?
This would only be true if Honkai energy was a non-physical energy system.
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I have no idea but magic in GOW is a conceptual UES.
Rakih_Elyan
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Elysia 4-A AP shouldn't even be used in combat.
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I don't know how it wouldn't be, Elysia can explode that dimension with people in it.
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Well, I don't like to bring bad news, but this exists and as you can imagine proposal 3 ends with the R>F of the verse, I wouldn't panic because we also have quantitative superiodity (size) but this will certainly affect the cosmology and how we rate hax.
The third one is just as important as the above two, and in most cases will probably be what makes or breaks whether your R>F Transcendence is 1-A or not: Are beings from the fictional reality interacting with the "real world" despite having no business doing that? As an example: In Bravely Default, the real world is an actual important plot-point, referred to as the "Celestial Realm" where the gods live. It appears to be very much a literal real world, so much so that, at the end of the game, the 3DS camera turns on and projects the player's face over the background as a showcase of the Celestial Realm. Furthermore, the characters are referred to as lesser beings compared to the Celestials, who as said before, are also "gods" to them.
So, that seems to have a good case for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, right? No, not really, because a plot-point in the game is also that the villain, Ouroboros, hatched a scheme to link together a bunch of alternate universes, in the hopes of consuming them and, in doing so, increase his power enough to breach into the Celestial Realm. That implies continuity between the higher world and the lower one in the sense described above, which is, of course, unacceptable. Another example would be this, which, of course, dispenses all explanation.
And to be honest, even the first proposal we might fail too, for example... the Imaginary Tree being abstract, and the whole Real < Imaginary of the verse. SoQ is also made of pure information/cognition, exists between reality and possibilities.
The third one is just as important as the above two, and in most cases will probably be what makes or breaks whether your R>F Transcendence is 1-A or not: Are beings from the fictional reality interacting with the "real world" despite having no business doing that? As an example: In Bravely Default, the real world is an actual important plot-point, referred to as the "Celestial Realm" where the gods live. It appears to be very much a literal real world, so much so that, at the end of the game, the 3DS camera turns on and projects the player's face over the background as a showcase of the Celestial Realm. Furthermore, the characters are referred to as lesser beings compared to the Celestials, who as said before, are also "gods" to them.
So, that seems to have a good case for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, right? No, not really, because a plot-point in the game is also that the villain, Ouroboros, hatched a scheme to link together a bunch of alternate universes, in the hopes of consuming them and, in doing so, increase his power enough to breach into the Celestial Realm. That implies continuity between the higher world and the lower one in the sense described above, which is, of course, unacceptable. Another example would be this, which, of course, dispenses all explanation.
And to be honest, even the first proposal we might fail too, for example... the Imaginary Tree being abstract, and the whole Real < Imaginary of the verse. SoQ is also made of pure information/cognition, exists between reality and possibilities.
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I'm confused, why do you talk more about "Bravely Default" than the Hoyoverse itself in a post about R>F in Hoyoverse? doesn't use the greatest example of R>F [Welt Vs. Ryusuke] and still somehow comes to the conclusion that the Hoyoverse will probably not qualify?
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The at very least possible Tier for DHIL is High 4-C via scaling to Phantylia, who can do this
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I remember seeing a sandbox where they put it High 1-C for scaling with the Aeons, but I see those levels are pretty contentious to be honest.
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No one we currently know scales to Aeons aside from other Aeons and maybe Polka Kakamond.
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That scaling got rejected apparently
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This wiki has always treated dimensionality in such a stupid way, so I'm glad Ultima finally seems to have called this part of it out.
Suffice to say, Hoyo's R>F isn't valid. IMO it never did to begin with, but the above thread is just the nail in the coffin.
In the first place, Ryusuke's statement has always been purely metaphorical. The only reason it was treated as literal was because of wiki members enforcing wiki logic onto a non-wiki entity. Like Ultima mentioned in the thread, you can't map R>F to dimensions because all dimensionalities are equally "real" in an ontological sense. Any so-called "fictional" being interacting in any way with a so-called "real" being would immediately invalidate the feat in that context.
On top of that, as I've said several times before, Welt defeating Ryusuke has never been about AP. Ryusuke was never higher-dimensional in durability to begin with as he'd shown no feats that unilaterally proved him to be so. He only ever claimed to be, but his feats always spoke otherwise. He was only capable of moving through higher dimensional axes like Teleporters from Toaru, and we don't consider those guys 11-D just because they travel through the 11th dimension to teleport. All Welt did to beat him was learn to do the same. His actual attack power and the range of his weapon never changed, only his perception, and by extension, his ability to aim.
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Well, Ryusuke may no longer be Low-1C (that's still debatable), and I disagree with this interpretation. SoQ and Imaginary Tree still have quantitative(size) superiority over the rest of the verse, so cosmology will still be tier 1.
Anyways, we should wait for the standards to come out to see what's going to be 1-A via R>F and what's going to remain what is via size superiority. The latter is so ridiculously easy to qualify for these days that having a timeline within a realm gives you low-1c, as an example.
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You misunderstand. The tiering of the cosmology wasn't in question, only Ryusuke's tiering - and Welt's own tiering via scaling over him.
The cosmology is absolutely Tier 1. Where specifically it is in Tier 1 is potentially up for debate, but it's definitely there.
Tbh I have no clue why people every believed Ryusuke was tiered in High 1-C. Seriously, before Welt fought him, his strongest opponent ever was Sirin - who never had any comparable feats besides the long-debunked 'infinite' corridor. Then after supposedly powering-up to be higher-dimensional, literally infinitely stronger, he then got stomped by a drastically-weakened and unarmed Kevin, who would've lost to Fu Hua if she had only a single more feather. The same Kevin who was stalemated by BKE Durandal. The same Dudu who couldn't have beaten Rimestar on her own, and who then got stomped by incomplete Senti in a much later chapter.
The dimensional superiority has always been a joke unless you claim Dudu and Ana were both infinitely more powerful than Six-Core Sirin.
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Now that the Ryusuke tiering is finally dead, we can move on to the actually-important discussions on tiering, like how we'd scale characters in Honkai 3rd now that Ely's Tier 4 is potentially invalid. On top of that, we also need to decide how we'd tier the bulk of the HSR characters and compiling what feats they scale to, then validating those feats. Once we do, we'll have a good picture of what the scaling of the verse would look like.
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We don't even know how Aeons scale to each other. We know Lan is like, the lowest tier of Aeon in terms of power - and his best feats are travelling MFTL+ and shooting down stars with his Lux Arrow. Some of Nanook's Emanators have better feats than the Aeon of the Hunt.
Also not sure how Polka would scale to any Aeons. Dunno where you got that from, tho admittedly I haven't finished Gold and Gears.
Only person I can see scaling to an Aeon from our current lore is that one "Fool" who allegedly fought and wounded Nanook.
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Kevin was able to carry out an attack that incapacitated PE HoTE for 12 hours.
Durandal is stated to have herrscher level powers, and was the only one capable of fighting K423 HoV
Rimestar is a stronger version of HoI, HoI while fighiting HoT Mei threated to tear the fabric of reality apart. HoT is stronger than HoV Kiana and bested her in Lament of the Fallen.
Incomplete Senti you mean Hua? wouldn't she still be on the same level as Phoenix Fu Hua who beat Kallen who was the strongest Valkyrie of her time, would put her at that level.
K423 HoV was stronger than 6-cored Sirin from 2E, cores are only a fraction of a Herrscher power.
Come to think of it, debating here is a waste of time, I' would put that time into finishing the profiles, fixing the ones that are already here, and writing blogs about terminology, cosmology, Honkai energy, among others.
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We already have several Tier 6 feats for HI3 that I compiled in the other thread.
Extra note, I think I remember Herrscher of the End had like some statements of being able to destroy Earth? But I don't remember where.
For Star Rail, of the top off my head and excluding the Aeons, most notable feats we have are:
- The cast being able to fight Cocolia's giant mech - Just based off it's sheer size, this one is easy Tier 7
- Dan Feng parting the seas - Likely somewhere in Tier 7
- Cocolia having the power of a Stellaron, which froze Jarilo's surface - I'm not sure if Cocolia fully scales to the Stellaron itself, but if she does, this is easy High 6-A
- The Doomsday Beast having a world destroying statement iirc? - 5-B
- Dan heng defeating a monster that could swallow stars from Himeko's profile - 4-C
- Phantylia's High 4-C feat - High 4-C
- Apparently Argenti defeat some monster who was swallowing stars or something? - I haven't finished the quest so idk the full context, and iirc, he was gonna sacrifice himself to do it, if it is true, then it's probably High 4-C to 4-A.
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This was full power Kevin using absolutely every ounce of his energy.
We're talking about absurdly-weakened Kevin, in base form and without Shamash.
You're proving my point. K423 HoV is stronger than Six-Core Sirin, but not infinitely so. If Durandal could stalemate the same Kevin who stomped Welt, who supposedly is infinitely stronger than his Second Eruption self who fought Six-Core Sirin, then your scaling chain would look like this:
Kiana HoV = Durandal = Weakened Kevin >>> Post-Ryusuke Welt > Ryusuke > ∞ > Six-Core Sirin > Second Eruption Welt
Do you see how ridiculous that is? Everything else you mentioned is irrelevant when your base argument is this flawed.
Who do you think you're talking to? Every existing Honkai 3rd profile right now except for Elysia's was made from nothing by me. I know better than anyone else in the Honkai supporters how much else there is to do.
Rushing out profiles with half-assed statistics is what caused Honkai to be such a badly-indexed verse that it needed to be overhauled to begin with. You don't even have your facts right, so what makes you think you have the capability to make a good profile page at all?
Wasting time? Making pages that would just get completely overwritten by corrective revisions is the actual waste of time.
Make the pages once their contents have been agreed upon.
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The swallowing stars thing is just Dan Heng, and that happened pre-Jarilo VI.
Argenti's thing was piercing the stomach of the Giant True Sting, which was big enough that the Express didn't realize it was even inside a stomach at all. Probably more of a range thing, though being able to harm it should be good as its own feat. The main feat was more of a resistance and self-sustenance thing, since he resisted the stomach acids that were corroding the exterior of the Express, and then the vacuum of deep space after he made it out.
Post-Xianzhou TB would also scale above Argenti, since he won their duel. It's implied that Argenti got a power up from the Path of Beauty afterwards though, so probs 2 different keys.
Dunno if Stellarons are all equal in strength, but if so, Cocolia likely wouldn't scale since the maximum output of a Stellaron (via self-destructing) managed to destroy an Emanator of Abundance iirc.
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Wdym?
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Welt never interacted with Ryusuke and he won by literally manipulating the gravity of the most real world through Rock Authority.
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