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Homestuck AP Downgrades

Well, he is a bureaucrat, and I know him to be highly knowledgeable about Homestuck, so I generally go along with what he considers appropriate.
 
I don't have very much time today, but I've already expressed why I disagree with this.

Assuming the planets are <1500 meters in diameter, and Jade's meteor is around the size of a small continent, Jade's meteor is literally bigger than the Incipisphere, which is the area in which the game takes place and all the planets are housed. Hell, even the meteor that was about to hit Houston would be bigger based on the image Prom posted displaying its size compared to Jade's meteor.

In addition, Prom also posted an image showing more of the meteors which would raze Earth as blips on the map, and they were still large enough to cover major areas and cities. Going by the pixel scaling of the planets, all of these meteors are orders of magnitude larger than all the game's planets, which is absurd. The comparison of all these meteors to the actual Earth is massively more important than pixel scaling planets with zero point of reference.
 
In addition, here's something else I had forgotten about. Calibor's planet, the Land of Colours and Mayhem, was Earth. As in, Earth in the far future after everything else was dead.

If you want to be so precise with scaling, here's Earth compared to the other planets of Caliborn's session. While not Earth-sized, they are only slightly smaller, and are around the size of something like Mars.

However, the comic makes it very clear that, since Caliborn's dead session supplied him with 15 planets instead of just one, they are classified as "minor planets", meaning they are likely notably smaller than the planets of other sessions, which would more likely be equal in size to Earth.
 
Why do we all of a sudden care about Hussie's intention of what he depicted the planets to be? We should care about whats commonly depicted/visually shown in his work; it just so happens to be that the planets in question are small.
 
That is likely just due to him being a lazy and/or bad artist though.
 
So what? We dont deny calculations due to an authors ignorance with science, so why deny calculations because of how incompetent of an artist the author is?
 
While I know very little on Homestuck, I want to ask something. Is there a population count of how many living beings live on one of those planets? Because depending on the answer, this may or may not be accepted, as a planet sized population would not fit in a planet that's only several kilometers long.
 
Because the meteor that was shown to be country-sized in comparison to Earth here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGQlI0XfEaY

Was depicted as notably smaller than Skaia, one of the supposedly City-Sized planets.

The meteor cannot be capable of destroying the Earth, and depicted as country sized in relation to Earth on multiple ocassions, and also be smaller than merely City-Sized planets. It would also make the meteor larger than the Solar System a chunk of the series takes place.
 
Going to point out again that, as I posted above, the only actual comparison that I know of between Earth (in this case, future Earth) and any session's planets (those of Caliborn's session) are between Earth and multiple minor planets deemed insufficient to be Caliborn's true planet. Said minor planets are still around the size of Mars. As should be obvious, Earth/Caliborn's planet is the one with a giant version of Caliborn's symbol stamped on it.

I'll also point out that, as far as measuring the chain connecting Derse and Prospit to their moons, the number of chain links isn't set and consistent, either.
 
A planet is a planet, unless specified otherwise, I think it's ridiculous to assume that the planets are tiny, and much easier to appriciate that the author just simply didn't draw them to genuine scale, thinking it wouldn't matter
 
@Ant (1) No offense but if you're going to go by an argument simply because someone said it and not the quality of the argument then you shouldn't really be taking a position.

@Azathoth (1) The images shown show literally thousands of meteors far smaller than even houses. There are just 2 meteors that would dwarf the planets, they are clearly the exception to the rule.

@Ant (2) Hussie is neither a lazy nor bad artist, hence why he has a comic several thousand pages in length. It's just that he likely didn't intend for them to be planet sized, as shown by nearly every instance they appear in bar just 2 meteors (which we don't even see compared to the planets anyway.)

@Marvel We never see a full population, but it is an extremely population-dense planet literally covered in buildings, more than enough to house even 50,000 people.

@Matthew Once more, the meteor is never shown in comparison to the planets. We have no idea how small they are compared to it. Not to mention ignoring mounds of evidence for this one outlier in size is incredibly dishonest.

@Azathoth (2) It's very dishonest of you to assume that that image is to scale while also ignoring all of the other images. Surely you wouldn't say this is to scale? Plus, Caliborn's session is intended to be extremely difficult and is stated numerous times to be an oulier session that should not happen. It would make sense for his planets to be larger.

@Kyo Because there was nothing stating the planets were real sized in the first place and there's no instances of them appearing real size. There's 2 instances of what we assume would result in real size, but there's no genuine "Look at how big this is" moments.

To address Azzy's point about the inconsistent number of chains here is some very simple scaling that does not involve chains and, in fact, directly shows us how large the kids are in comparison to the planets. In this image we see Jade flying to another tower. While she is very small compared to them, the "orbs" on top of the towers are no more than 10x larger than her.

Those are the same orbs we can directly see here. This, without a doubt, means that Prospit is nowhere near the size of a real planet or even a real moon.

In addition to that, Jade's Dreambot copies her movements on Prospit 1-for-1 in the real world. As far as I know, this Dreambot never leaves the island, or at least never goes too far beyond it. This is an exact comparison of the size of Prospit compared to Earth, which would mean that not only is Prospit likely not even the size of an island, it most certainly is not the size of a planet.
 
I am still in complete disagreements for all the same reasons that I have said and which have not been refuted, merely rejected.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I am still in complete disagreements for all the same reasons that I have said and which have not been refuted, merely rejected.
Click to expand...
You're right, technically they haven't been refuted. But I'm saying scaling to the meteor is still as much a non-proof as you're making out scaling to be. And, as I said before, even if we scale the meteor that Bec destroys to be the size of Skaia we're still stuck with Island/Country sized planets, possibly smaller if we scalled the meteor to Skaia's outer shell.
 
So, using one method is scaling that doesn't require pixel scaling and doesn't create contradictions with the Verse's cosmology or require any big assumptions is inaccurate, but your scaling is accurate despite doing all that simply though a sheer number of examples?

I think it's a quality vs quantity issue here.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
So, using one method is scaling that doesn't require pixel scaling and doesn't create contradictions with the Verse's cosmology or require any big assumptions is inaccurate, but your scaling is accurate despite doing all that simply though a sheer number of examples?
I think it's a quality vs quantity issue here.
Click to expand...
There's no contradictions with the cosmology, if DC was consistently shown to be 1 obersevable universe big and then suddenly showed a scene where Superman flies 1,000,000 quintillion lightyears the latter would be considered the outlier, not the former.

I fail to see how your example is more "quality" than mine, seeing as how there's several holes in it.
 
To address claims of Hussie not knowing scale I thought I would bring up this moo. This moon is literally covered in cities. Cities made by the same people who are genetically hardwired to build things like this.

This shows that Hussie knows how big buildings are supposed to be in relation to a planet/moon since they aren't visible at all. So by showing us the kid's houses/the towers on Derse while not showing us the literal mounds of towers and cities on the Green Moon I think it seems pretty obvious he's trying to say that the SBURB planets are smaller than real ones.
 
@Xcano

Thousands of meteors smaller than houses, and yet also a great number larger than you are stating the actual planets are.

You seem to miss the entire point. I have been repeatedly stating that Hussie does not care about drawing everything to scale, meaning pixel scaling everything isn't going to work. However, when presented with some of the only comparisons between meteors and the Earth or other planets and the Earth, you completely ignore them because it doesn't fit your narrative. It doesn't matter how many times you pixel scale something to be absurdly small. The actual comparisons we get between them and the Earth are going to be more important.

Speaking of dishonesty, I'm surprised at your blatant dishonesty regarding the issue of the moon, considering you've read the comic and know very well that said moon is literally an image of the actual moon photoshopped into the comic and made green, which is a trend among certain planets and celestial objects.

If you had multiple instancs of SBURB planets being shown this small in comparison to something like Earth or the moon, then you'd have a case. But multiple instances of pixel scaling without comparison to an actual planet do not win out against fewer instances of actual comparison to Earth.
 
@Azzy That image is of a tiny strip of land, making each of those meteors maybe 40 meters across at best.

And no, that isn't how scaling works. It's never worked like that. The most common depiction always outweighs the highest depiction. Which, in this case, isn't really a depiction at all.

Yes, I know it's a photoshopped image of the moon. But every planet in the series is a photoshopped image, including John's, which notably has his house visible. My point still stands, as if he wanted to show they were real planets he could've put any, any landmark at all visible from space on the Green Moon.

Yes, they do. Scaling never takes the highest depiction and just rolls with it simply because it wasn't shown against something else. Once more, it isn't an actual comparison and even if I did scale Skaia to the meteor we're still talking Country sized planets here.

In addition, the amount of distance Jade's Dreambot crosses is a comparison of Prospit to Earth, which you seem to have ignored.
 
No, this is of a tiny strip of land. The assumption of meteors in the first image being "40 meters at best" is ridiculous.

You are twisting scaling into something incredibly odd that doesn't work in any logical sense. Being able to create multiple instance of flawed pixel scaling does not outweigh actual comparisons to Earth. It never has, never will, and saying it does over and over again does not make it any more true. You do not have depictions of small planets compared to the Earth. You have assumptions they are that small being weighed against planets and meteors actually compared to Earth.

Yes, and other planets, such as Caliborn's, have zero landmarks on them, despite being clearly shown to have cities, mountains, oceans, etc. on their surfaces. They are still session-generated planets that are even considered "minor" planets. Hussie often simply slaps an important landmark onto a planet's surface to make it easy to recognize. If you want to argue these are accurate portrayals of size, then Bro, who we saw in comparison to the turntable on LOHAC, is around the same height as the volcano on LOFAF.

See my second point.

You are assuming Jade's dreambot never leaves her island, despite the fact it has the ability to fly, and go far enough to get photographic evidence of the meteor headed for Dave's house.
 
At this point, Xcano, there is nothing you can say that would convince me, Azathoth has been reasonable and factual throughout.
 
Okay Matt I don't really care tbh.

@Azzy Not to fall victim to just going "baaah but I'm smarter" but I would think that being a member of the calc team I would know how scaling is supposed to work. You're using one example out of a whole series showing small scale and claiming that to be special. I already showed that Hussie knows how scale works, claiming that he's messed it up literally every time aside from twice seems to be a bit flawed.

I can't find a source on this "minor planet" claim other than the Wiki, and even if it was true that doesn't particularly prove anything. That's just stating it's size in comparison to the other planets in the session, I.E. Earth. And if you'd get me a comparison of Jade to the Volcano I could easily scale LOFAF to that as well, but just as an FYI even assuming it's 600 meters tall still only results in planets 28 km in diameter.

Yes, I know it can fly. That just further proves my point? There's no restrictions on how far it can move, which would mean that if it can fly around all Prospit while still remaining in the island then that means Prospit is the size of Jade's island.

Now about that meteor, that isn't the robot "flying far enough." Jade simply flew down to Skaia and it recorded her dreams, that's a thing it does. Now even if we assume it flew all the way from Jade's island to Texas and then all the way up into orbit to personally record that meteor that still means that the distance between Skaia and Prospit is less than the circumference of the Earth, which would pretty conclusively prove how small the planets are.
 
You're still using the argument of quantity and claiming that your pixel scaling very likely to be failing to mesh with the intentions and the series' plot, as it has been shown to here repeatedly, is the superior way of doing things.

Evidence provided by both me and Ant, and the series' proper proves that you are wrong, and the fact that you yourself have to appeal to the author's ignorance of physics, claiming tha the Meteor's size on Earth is meaningless and just exists to look cool and that the "minor planet" term doesn'tp orve a thing, makes it appear that you are reaching now.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
You're still using the argument of quantity and claiming that your pixel scaling very likely to be failing to mesh with the intentions and the series' plot, as it has been shown to here repeatedly, is the superior way of doing things.
Evidence provided by both me and Ant, and the series' proper proves that you are not wrong, and the fact that you yourself have to appeal to the author's ignorance of physics, claiming tha the Meteor's size on Earth is meaningless and just exists to look cool and that the "minor planet" term doesn'tp orve a thing, makes it appear that you are reaching now.
Click to expand...
Matt no offense you aren't an authority on what is and isn't the "right way" to do calculations to determine size, especially considering 2 (albeit including me) calc members disagree with you on this.

"the series' proper proves that you are not wrong"

Thanks for the concession.
 
@LordX I doubt that is a actual concession as it is a typo if anything. I may not know much of this series, but what I do want to know is it a webcomic series, manga, or light novel series? Also same can be said for you, LordX as you are not the authority of this series, the author is the main authority when it come to things such as this
 
@Star I know it's not I was just messing around. It's a webcomic series, and I wasn't saying I was an authority on the series more an authority on how scaling works seeing at that's literally my job.
 
I suppose that is understandable, @LordX. I can not really pick a side here as I don't know much about HomeStruck. I am more interested to science and occasionally fantasy kind of fiction due to curosity and doing active thinking.
 
@LordXcano Okay. I will try to stay out of this.
 
LordXcano said:
-
Click to expand...
Matt no offense you aren't an authority on what is and isn't the "right way" to do calculations to determine size, especially considering 2 (albeit including me) calc members disagree with you on this.
"the series' proper proves that you are not wrong"

Thanks for the concession.

I disagree with you. Pixel scaling should not be overused, especially if you need to stack several of cases in a row.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
You're still using the argument of quantity
And the fact that you yourself have to appeal to the author's ignorance of physics, claiming tha the Meteor's size on Earth is meaningless and just exists to look cool and that the "minor planet" term doesn'tp orve a thing, makes it appear that you are reaching now.
Click to expand...
Whats wrong with getting twenty instances of a planet looking small; saying that the one or five instances the planet would look big are anomalous and therefore shouldnt be factored when coming up with a mean size for the planet?

"Pixel scaling should not be overused, especially if you need to stack several of cases in a row."

How is stacking several cases in a row a fault on pixel scaling? Also, there is nothing wrong with the concept, as it's just looking at the relationship of pixels and sizes of objects/characters present within the shot (like ratio.) And, it just so happens to be that when you use this method you gain the answer that these planets are infact smaller than your usual planets. Can you please list a few examples in where you would deem pixel scaling as being "overused"? In all honesty, that argument sounds like "I don't like pixel scaling when it doesnt benefit me".
 
I apologize for double posting, but to disprove the notion that these planets are smaller. One needs to provide sufficent evidence akin to twenty instances of the former being true to do so. You don't see scientists doing experiments and going with the outlier result, so why should we perform the same thing here?
 
A couple examples of strong, unquestionable evidence will twart flawed evidence.

The clearest example of scaling in the series shows that the planets aren't City sized, and then being city-sized contradicts the plot itself.

It's not about quantity, it's about being logical with the series' plot.
 
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