Homestuck AP Downgrades

[LordXcano]

So I did this calculatio showing that the planets in Homestuck are far smaller than real ones. The main objection to this is this meteor, which is clearly the size of a large island or country. I am going to argue this is an outlier in size and also address a few concerns.

First off:

• This calculatio places the size of the planets at 1850 meters and the moons at 337 meters, both of these results are fairly consistent with mine (1491 and 851 meters respectively.)

• This calculatio gets 1665 meters for the width of the planets, once again fairly consistent with the above results.

• Another calculatio (albeit a rough one) places the planets in Homestuck at 2011 meters in diameter.

• Yet another calculatio gets just 1905 meters for the width of the planets, consistent once more. This alone would place the average depiction of these planets at 1784.4 meters. For another reference of scale, even if we combined each of these calculations the planets in Homestuck would still only be 8922 meters in diameter.

• Dave, a 13 year old, is shown as comparable to the chains that hold Derse's moon, these are the same chains that appear here. In fact, here is the immediate aftermath of that event.

• Here is another shot showing that the kids are comparable in size to the chains that hold Derse's moon.

• Here's another shot showing that Jack (someone only a bit taller than the kids, but not superhumanly so) is comparable to the chains on Prospit, which is equal in size to Derse. Remember, those are these very same chains.

• As for a scale as to how big Skaia (a proper planet) is in comparison to Prospit's moon, here's a shot from almost immediately after Jack severs the chain.

• Here is a shot comparing the Carapacians to the tiles on Skaia, the Carapacians are not superhumanly tall in any way. Here is Skaia itself, by measuring the width of the tiles we can see Skaia is just 178 tiles wide, even highballing each tile to 15 meters across still only makes Skaia 2670 meters wide.

• While it is technically non-canon, the an official comic on Paradox Space depicts the planets as traversable by foot in what seems to be a short timeframe. Obviously they would have needed to fly to get between each planet (or more likely taken a portal), but this still shows that travelling across one on foot is not a hard task.

• Here's an aerial of Dave's planet, every single time it is shown it uses this exact same aerial. Notice two things, first is that Dave's house (the tower at the top) is visible from orbit, despite not having expanding width-wise at all. Another thing is the giant disc in the middle of the planet. That is the same disc both Jack and Bro are comparable to in size, with John (still 13 by the way) also being shown as comparable in size (this is the largest the disc ever appears.)

• This is an aerial of John's planet, see the dirt tower on the top of that? That's the same dirt pillar appearing here. As you can see, it isn't that much wider than John's house itself.

• This is a shot showing the relative distances between each Gate. There are only 7 Gates all the way to Skaia, which would indicate that interplanetary distances are only a few kilometers at most.

• Backing up small interplanetary distances is this conversatio. Terezi starts at the Lillypad, which as you can see here is directly below Skaia. As soon as she begins flying it only takes her 7 pages before a planet comes into view. Keep in mind this is just a regular jetpack with no notable speed feats for it. Backing up its slowness is that even after that planet comes into view it still takes her 4 pages to bring it close enough to actually make out detail.

I know of more instances of the overall scale being depicted as small but I would need to find the animations they appear in and right now I'm strapped for data. So to conclude I'm just going to address a few counterpoints:

"If they were so small wouldn't gravity be an issue?"

Regularly, yes. However Homestuck does not care about gravity. This meteor, which as you can see is only a few buildings wide, has Earth-like gravity on it.

"They're superhuman in speed. If the planets were so small they'd clear through them instantly."

This is no different than arguing that either Naruto's Earth is 10,000x bigger than our own because it takes MHS characters days to cross nations, or alternatively that Naruto is very slow because it takes them days to cross nations.

"Homestuck doesn't care about scale, you can't pixel scale it like that."

Most mediums don't care about scale to such an inane extent. However given that I have provided at least 14 instances of small scale with 1 instance of large scale against it I would say that Hussie is consistently telling us "these are tiny as hell."

 

[Tivanenk]

I disagree. There's no indication that the Earth is smaller than our Earth. Bleach, for instance suffers from the same problem, yet we take it for granted. Completely unwarranted.

 

[LordXcano]

I wasn't arguing that the Earth is smaller than our Earth, rather that the planets the kids play on is smaller.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I agree, the amount of evidence of the planets being small is almost overwhelming.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I agree with this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

2 Kilometer planets are incredibly ridiculous. It's far likelier that the author simply didn't take the time to properly scale things, and that you are overthinking.

 

[Promestein]

I'm on Matt's side here.

 

[LordXcano]

2 Kilometer planets are incredibly ridiculous. It's far likelier that the author simply didn't take the time to properly scale things, and that you are overthinking.

Argument from incredulity. All evidence aside from 1 shot suggests they're small. There's no statements that they're large and no indications that they're large in the first place.

Using this same line of thinking I can argue all FTL characters are sub-light speed and also that calcs as a whole are illegitimate, because calcs are the very definition of overthinking and FTL speed by itself is ridiculous.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not comparable. Your argument comes from assuming that the author intended the planets to be tiny and city sized, which there is no evidence of.

It is not a fallacy, it's basic reasoning.

If you believe this to be legit, then we better be upgrading a lot of One Piece characters to Tier 5 because a calculation that makes the planet Large Star Sized.

What is more likely? That the author didn't bother properly scaling the planets, and that you and the other posts are overthinking basic pixel art, or that the author intended the planets to be tiny and drew them the way they did deliberatedly?

And no, don't bring up Death of the Author, or how certain authors never intended for their characters to be this or that strong. This isn't an author misinterpreting his characters' feats and power levels. He simply drew planets with pixel art. You instead are assuming his pixel art is 100% on scale and calculating it all to conclude that the planets are town cized with no textual in-story evidence for such.

 

[LordXcano]

Not comparable. Your argument comes from assuming that the author intended the planets to be tiny and city sized, which there is no evidence of.
It is not a fallacy, it's basic reasoning.

If you believe this to be legit, then we better be upgrading a lot of One Piece characters to Tier 5 because a calculation that makes the planet Large Star Sized.

What is more likely? That the author didn't bother properly scaling the planets, and that you and the other posts are overthinking basic pixel art, or that the author intended the planets to be tiny and drew them the way they did deliberatedly?

And no, don't bring up Death of the Author, or how certain authors never intended for their characters to be this or that strong. This isn't an author misinterpreting his characters' feats and power levels. He simply drew planets with pixel art. You instead are assuming his pixel art is 100% on scale and calculating it all to conclude that the planets are town cized with no textual in-story evidence for such.

I provided at least 14 instances of the author showing the planets to be tiny. It is literally obvious both from the math and casual observation.

The difference between this and One Piece is that that is one single evidence, this is (at least) 14 evidences against 1.

I think Hussie intended for them to be small. There's just 1 piece of evidence suggesting otherwise and he'd have to be really bad at art to fail at scaling them properly in literally every single appearance they make.

I have provided textual in-story evidence. These planets are meant to be small enough that they are traversable by foot, and there is in fact a story of that exact thing being done. In every appearance they make, regardless of pixel scaling or not (which, if you haven't noticed, is at most only 35% of my evidence) it is blatantly clear they are not planet sized.

Right now you are quite literally arguing that they are planet sized based entirely on assumptions. You have provided 0 evidence to the contrary aside from one single proof, you're just repeatedly stating that the author didn't mean for them to be that small while also providing no proof he meant for them to be big. Meanwhile I have provided 14 evidences he meant for them to be small.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Actually, those "evidences" are countered by all the evidence Azathoth has shown that the planets are not meant to be tiny.

Having read all you and his conversations in the Blog Post, I am not convinced of anything but you misinterpreting things.

 

[LordXcano]

Actually, those "evidences" are countered by all the evidence Azathoth has shown that the planets are not meant to be tiny.
Having read all you and his conversations in the Blog Post, I am not convinced of anything but you misinterpreting things.

Azzy provided screenshots that have no scale to them and that 1 meteor that is legitimately large. Nothing he stated was an evidence.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd say the exact opposite.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah...im with Matt on this

 

[LordXcano]

I'd say the exact opposite.

Matt, once again you're just saying something without providing any evidence. I can just as easily claim my arguments were 100% flawless and that Hussie 100% intended the planets to be the size of nickels and it would be just as legitimate as your argument because you haven't actually given any proof for your statements.

 

[Promestein]

I think a single, clear, unambigious depiction of scale is a lot more reliable than pixel scaling

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think a single, clear, unambigious depiction of scale is a lot more reliable than pixel scaling

Exactly.

Also everything else that Azathoth argued in deep length at the Blog Post, which Xcano has ignored.

 

[LordXcano]

I think a single, clear, unambigious depiction of scale is a lot more reliable than pixel scaling

Except agai pixel scaling isn't even my entire argument. I provided several clear unambigious depictions of scale to prove that they're small.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Depictions of scale that come from taking different scenes together and pixel scaling. Not legit scale.

 

[LordXcano]

Depictions of scale that come from taking different scenes together and pixel scaling. Not legit scale.

If you read the post you'd see I actually provided several depictions of scale from the exact same scenes.

 

[Promestein]

I'm aware, but the travel related things are pretty irrelevant in a verse with multiple MFTL+ feats, like travelling between universes in years and moving from the center of a sun the size of two universes to outside of it in a short timeframe. The other things are inconsistent depiction of scales from an author who doesn't really care, while the scale of Jade's meteor is clear, unambiguous, and important.

There's also the fact that, regardless of that, the meteors raze both Earth and Alternia in a short timeframe.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I did read the post. And I did read the giant comment section. And I concluded that your evidence and arguments are unsufficient.

 

[LordXcano]

I'm aware, but the travel related things are pretty irrelevant in a verse with multiple MFTL+ feats, like travelling between universes in years and moving from the center of a sun the size of two universes to outside of it in a short timeframe. The other things are inconsistent depiction of scales from an author who doesn't really care, while the scale of Jade's meteor is clear, unambiguous, and important.
There's also the fact that, regardless of that, the meteors raze both Earth and Alternia in a short timeframe and characters pingpong around planets with minimal difficulty. It's not like them being planetary in size would go against the verse's general depictions of power.

1. The entirety of the MFTL+ upgrade was flawed, I'm just not doing that in this thread to avoid things like this.

2. That meteor was not important, it literally appeared for a single flash animation just to show off how strong Bec is.

3. The same planets this post is trying to prove are small? That's circular logic.

"I did read the post. And I did read the giant comment section. And I concluded that your evidence and arguments are unsufficient."

Matt, just like Azzy, until you can provide actual proof the planets are large I'm going to have to not respond to you. The only one in this thread who has tried to put up a semblance of evidence is Prom, you're just repeating your statements over and over again without providing any evidence for them.

This is no different than if I just quoted all of your posts and said:

"Wrong."

 

[Promestein]

It also was shown here, along with Dave's meteor, which is clearly more than big enough to level Houston and was casually cut in half by Bro. (And, again, trying to lowball it by bringing up Bro's size in comparison is just bringing up an inconsistent sense of scale made for the sake of the visuals).

3. Hence why I removed it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Azathoth provided extensive factual proof, actually. And re-read Promenstein post, she explains very easily why resorting to the walking distance argument is nonsense. I'm surprised you even bother since it's non-canonical.

Meteor isn't unimportant when it's the clearer, most detailed and legit scale used, and it's effects raze both Earth and Alternia. If this is unimportant, we'd have to consider Earth city-sized as well, which I'm sure you see the problem with.

We'd also have the statistics and Planet-Sizes exist in an obvious double standard, between a Planet-Sized Earth and City-Sized mini planets who's size actually scales to Earth through the Meteor.

Removing the improbable and accepting the most logical and likely hypothesis, do you think that it was intended for Homestuck to have a City-Sized Earth, or that the author doesn't care?

 

[LordXcano]

It also was shown here, along with Dave's meteor, which is clearly more than big enough to level Houston and was casually cut in half by Bro. (And, again, trying to lowball it by bringing up Bro's size in comparison is just bringing up an inconsistent size of scale made for the sake of the visuals.
3. Hence why I removed it.

The meteor Bro sliced in half was comparable in size to 2 buildings, as you can see right before they crashed.

Also, the meteors being that big doesn't actually really mean anything. Skaia teleports them away specifically because they will destroy it, and we never see how large the meteors are in comparison to the planet. On top of that, scale changing because one went through a portal/exited a universe isn't uncommon in Homestuck and happens all the time.

And on top of all that I think trying to disprove consistent depictions of small size when there was no statement or indication they were big in the first place based on 1 or 2 instances where we don't even get to compare scale is pretty flawed.

To compare it to the One Piece point above, if the planet in One Piece was shown 14+ times to be the size of a Large Star and one/two times to be the size of a city why would you argue that it's actually city sized and not Large Star sized?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Fallacious argument. I'd argue for One Piece Planet being the size of a Planet or Large Planet until we get an official scale otherwise that doesn't come from pixel scaling and ignoring important plot points and using non-canon comics for an argument.

 

[Promestein]

You're arguing based on that despite the fact that it's obviously a cinematic choice made for the sake of the shot and for maximum clarity, which also applies to a lot of your other arguments. Also, the kids' Skaia survives a sustained meteor bombardment for some time - given that the Reckoning started way earlier than it usually does. Prospit also does more damage to Skaia than any of the meteors do.

I'd go with the size that was more clearly, unambiguously depicted.

 

[LordXcano]

You're arguing based on that despite the fact that it's an obviously a cinematic choice made for the sake of the shot and for maximum clarity, which also applies to a lot of your other arguments. Also, the kids' Skaia survives a sustained meteor bombardment for some time - given that the Reckoning started way earlier than it usually does - and Derse is near enough to the Veil that the fact that it is not depicted as significantly smaller than random meteors is also relevant.
I'd go with the size that was more clearly, unambiguously depicted.

You're applying a double standard here. I'm not sure if this first one was accepted here, but for a while Jupiter-sized Naruto and what was it 8000 km DBZ moon was accepted based on what was clearly a "cinematic choice."

Random meteors are depicted as way bigger than others. Some meteors are small enough that babies are comparable in size to them while some (such as the one in Cascade) are implied to be large enough to just wipe out Skaia instantly, or at least are depicted as many times larger than others.

Continuing on this "cinematic choice" thing, I can turn this around and say Hussie was making the meteors on Earth bigger-than-normal simply for the cool factor. This is partially backed up as the one Bro split literally only existed so Bro could be cool, and the one Bec destroyed only existed so we could see how cool Bec was.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Are both Jupiter-Sized Naruto and 8k Km DBZ moon accepted now? No, so why bother.

The size of the meteor is clearly shown in relation to Earth and other planets, so it cannot be tiny. If it is, Earth is tiny as well.

And that argument was fallacious when you have a quantifiable sense of scale for the meteors on Earth, but not for the other planets.

Who cares if the meteors exist to make the character cool and powerful. They happened, we get scaling from them. It's legit, and using this fallacy will get you nowhere.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. You are wanting Town Sized planets, but because of the meteor and Earth you are forced to do an argumentative gymnastic to claim both are not mutually-exclusive.

 

[Promestein]

Why is that a double standard, I don't think I ever supported either of those. And if I did, then that was a mistake and I was wrong. We don't have those things accepted anymore. It's irrelevant.

Yeah, that's basically just what feats are, things that make characters look cool. They still happened. And if he really wanted the meteor slicing feat to be so cool, why would he make it smaller for the shot in Descend?

 

[LordXcano]

Why is that a double standard, I don't think I ever supported either of those. And if I did, then that was a mistake and I was wrong. We don't have those things accepted anymore. It's irrelevant.
Yeah, that's basically just what feats are, things that make characters look cool. They still happened. And if he really wanted the meteor slicing feat to be so cool, why would he make it smaller for the shot in Descend?

Here's the thing though, 8000 km DBZ moon was only rejected specifically because WoG confirmed it was the real distance away. That would imply that the standard on this wiki is to take things as they are most commonly portrayed, not as what one would assume they be.

I'm saying he didn't make the meteor smaller. We had no scale as to how large the meteor was right up until it crashes, at which point we see it is the size of two buildings. I'm saying he makes things bigger just so they can be cool, and in addition even if that meteor was the size of the galaxy it wouldn't matter. We never see how big it is in comparison to Skaia, so it very well could've dwarfed it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Again, a false equivalence.

WoG statement that the moon in 300,000 Km from Earth = Pixel Scaling. One depicts intention and a clear scale. The other is assumptions that the author always draws the planets with scale.

You know what also depicts legit, 100% usable scale that's not debatable?

Everything related to the meteor.

Edit:

"So it very well could've dwarfed it"

Key word: could've. You are using argument from assumption. Use what's most logical from clear evidence and scale from that, not from what you want to be true.

 

[Promestein]

... Yes, we do, it's clearly depicted right here. If it was the size of two or three buildings, it wouldn't even be a blip. These two pages show meteors that are clearly more around that size, in a ridiculous quantity no less.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What is more logical to assume is an intended value:

Taking two different shots and pixel scaling from them to determine that the planet is only a few thousand kilometers in diameter...

Or using scans that overlay the meteor's size with a real-world Map of the Earth?

Which is a more reasonable way of scaling? Which is more believable, and likely to be Hussie's intention?

Why would the meteor be overlayed to be that large over a real world map for "coolness effect"?

 

[LordXcano]

... Yes, we do, it's clearly depicted right here. If it was the size of two or three buildings, it wouldn't even be a blip. These two pages show meteors that are clearly more around that size, in a ridiculous quantity no less.

Thank you for providing those pages, which show literally thousands of meteors far smaller than the 2 large ones. I think this should prove my point that those meteors are the exception to the rule rather well.

And, once more, their size is irrelevant. We never see how large they are in comparison to Skaia, so it is completely possible that they dwarf it and it wouldn't contradict anything. Even if I scaled Skaia to the largest meteor there it would still make the planets merely Country or Large Country sized at best.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It is relevant. The tiny meteors have nothing to do with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Since Azathoth seems to disagree with this, I agree with Matthew and Promestein. Also, given the former's personal situation, we might have to wait until he gets the time to respond again.

 

[LordXcano]

Since Azathoth seems to disagree with this, I agree with Matthew and Promestein. Also, given the former's personal situation, we might have to wait until he gets the time to respond again.

Why would Azzy be a higher source of authority than me when we have both read the comic?