(Hollow Knight) The Knight's intelligence and ability removals

[Justkillme42069]

This never made sense to me tbh.

The mindless part of the intelligence page:

Mindless: Those few beings that are literally mindless and have no capacity for intelligence at all.

The intelligence section of The Knight's page:

Intelligence: Mindless. Vessels were deliberately conceived to lack any perseverance in thinking, processing, feeling, and/or taking in thoughts & emotions. However, it has displayed great combat intelligence when fighting bosses and waiting for opportunities to strike.

The first bit is correct. The Pale King made the vessels for the purpose of sealing the infection. In order for a vessel to not just become another part of the Radiance's hivemind, it must not have a mind at all. The only problem is that The Knight is a failed vessel.

The Pale King created thousands of vessels, and deemed only the one we know as the Hollow Knight successful, meaning that it indeed had no will or mind, and would not succumb to the infection (which the pale king ****** up anyway lol the hollow knight got possessed). All of the other vessels, which had wills and minds, were yeeted into the abyss, including our protagonist The Knight.
The failed vessels having intelligence is supported by the hunter's journal entry for "siblings", the shades of The Knight's fellow vessels: "Fragment of a lingering will."

Aside from this, The Knight clearly displays throughout the game that it does indeed have a mind to think and a will to break.

As stated in The Knight's profile, it displays great combat intelligence. It's able to master new techniques with its nail without much training, and can learn how to use the other new spells and items it acquires throughout its journey with only around a couple minutes of practice. It's able to fight on par with Hallownest's sacred protector Hornet for example, and several other trained warriors like those in the Colosseum of Fools, Hive Knight, Dung Defender, the Nailmasters, Paintmaster and Nailsage, and is likely even superior to all of them.

The Knight understands the language of Hallownest's denizens, both written and verbal. It understands that Geo is currency it can exchange with shop vendors for items that can help it on its journey. It understands the concept of a bank, even. It knows what a map is for, knows it can draw the area in a map using a quill to navigate it easier. It knows it can use a tram pass to ride on the train thingy. It has a will to survive. It knew what to do to seal the infection inside of itself during the Hollow Knight boss fight. The list goes on, but this should be enough.

So basically I'm proposing we change The Knight's intelligence to something that isn't mindless, probably to above average for its combat skill. This would also remove its resistance to mind and empathic manipulation, since it has a mind and presumably emotions.
The Hollow Knight/Pure Vessel should also probably have those removed, since it was able to be controlled by the Radiance.

 

[Justkillme42069]

While I'm at it, the vengefuly, dirtcarver and grub mimic should be animalistic.

 

[Roachman40]

This never made sense to me tbh.

The mindless part of the intelligence page:

The intelligence section of The Knight's page:

The first bit is correct. The Pale King made the vessels for the purpose of sealing the infection. In order for a vessel to not just become another part of the Radiance's hivemind, it must not have a mind at all. The only problem is that The Knight is a failed vessel.

The Pale King created thousands of vessels, and deemed only the one we know as the Hollow Knight successful, meaning that it indeed had no will or mind, and would not succumb to the infection (which the pale king ****** up anyway lol the hollow knight got possessed). All of the other vessels, which had wills and minds, were yeeted into the abyss, including our protagonist The Knight.
The failed vessels having intelligence is supported by the hunter's journal entry for "siblings", the shades of The Knight's fellow vessels: "Fragment of a lingering will."

Aside from this, The Knight clearly displays throughout the game that it does indeed have a mind to think and a will to break.

As stated in The Knight's profile, it displays great combat intelligence. It's able to master new techniques with its nail without much training, and can learn how to use the other new spells and items it acquires throughout its journey with only around a couple minutes of practice. It's able to fight on par with Hallownest's sacred protector Hornet for example, and several other trained warriors like those in the Colosseum of Fools, Hive Knight, Dung Defender, the Nailmasters, Paintmaster and Nailsage, and is likely even superior to all of them.

The Knight understands the language of Hallownest's denizens, both written and verbal. It understands that Geo is currency it can exchange with shop vendors for items that can help it on its journey. It understands the concept of a bank, even. It knows what a map is for, knows it can draw the area in a map using a quill to navigate it easier. It knows it can use a tram pass to ride on the train thingy. It has a will to survive. It knew what to do to seal the infection inside of itself during the Hollow Knight boss fight. The list goes on, but this should be enough.

I agree with this for the most part

So basically I'm proposing we change The Knight's intelligence to something that isn't mindless, probably to above average for its combat skill. This would also remove its resistance to mind and empathic manipulation, since it has a mind and presumably emotions.
The Hollow Knight/Pure Vessel should also probably have those removed, since it was able to be controlled by the Radiance.

The Knight should still keep the resistances, considering it is not tarnished by an 'idea instilled'. The vessels where literally made to not think or feel so the knight should keep these to some extent.

"No cost too great.
No mind to think.
No will to break.
No voice to cry suffering.
Born of God and Void.
You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams.
You are the Vessel.
You are the Hollow Knight."

The Pure Vessel is considered to be the hollow knight's 'pure' form, with it's worldly body being deemed bound and defiled. It should keep the resistances to a very limited extent.

"Show reverence, o meagre one. Show fear! Thou approacheth a great and terrible God.
Though its worldly body be bound and defiled, the glory of its pure form endures, ruler of this pantheon. Its endless power shall attune Us to the one greater still,a God of Gods!"

 

[Justkillme42069]

The Knight should still keep the resistances, considering it is not tarnished by an 'idea instilled'. The vessels where literally made to not think or feel so the knight should keep these to some extent.

"No cost too great.
No mind to think.
No will to break.
No voice to cry suffering.
Born of God and Void.
You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams.
You are the Vessel.
You are the Hollow Knight."

As I said, The Knight is a failed vessel. It and the other failures were deemed failures because they weren't non-thinking and non-feeling enough to not be affected by the infection. And as I also said, The Knight can absolutely think based on what we can see throughout the game. It being able to feel emotions or not admittedly isn't clear, though, aside from not wanting to die.
That whole quote is also directed only towards the Hollow Knight, the only "successful" vessel who was deemed pure enough to not be affected by the infection, who was also not actually successful since it was possessed by the Radiance, but presumably much more pure than the others, including The Knight.

Only the Pure Vessel key should keep the resistances, it is considered to be the hollow knight's 'pure' form, with it's worldly body being deemed bound and defiled.

"Show reverence, o meagre one. Show fear! Thou approacheth a great and terrible God.
Though its worldly body be bound and defiled, the glory of its pure form endures, ruler of this pantheon. Its endless power shall attune Us to the one greater still,a God of Gods!"

Fair enough.

 

[Roachman40]

As I said, The Knight is a failed vessel. It and the other failures were deemed failures because they weren't non-thinking and non-feeling enough to not be affected by the infection. And as I also said, The Knight can absolutely think based on what we can see throughout the game. It being able to feel emotions or not admittedly isn't clear, though, aside from not wanting to die.
That whole quote is also directed only towards the Hollow Knight, the only "successful" vessel who was pure enough to not be affected by the infection, who was also not actually successful since it was possessed by the Radiance, but presumably much more pure than the others, including The Knight.

Understandable, although I think the resistances should be added to the knight's voidheart key, considering it's unified with the void.

 

[Justkillme42069]

Understandable, although I think the resistances should be added to the knight's voidheart key, considering it's unified with the void.

Why would that give it those resistances though?

 

[Roachman40]

It is unified with the void as said, The knight is even considered empty by the white lady after acquiring it.

"That pulsing emptiness... Truly, it has been transformed by the revelations it found.
Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.
The fate of our Kingdom, our Hallownest... that future belongs to you now."

 

[Justkillme42069]

It is unified with the void as said, The knight is even considered empty by the white lady after acquiring it.

"That pulsing emptiness... Truly, it has been transformed by the revelations it found.
Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.
The fate of our Kingdom, our Hallownest... that future belongs to you now."

Fair enough. The Knight is still just as intelligent as before even after getting voidheart, and the White Lady only comments on The Knight not being able to feel anything, so resistance to empathic manipulation is fine but not mind manipulation.
This dialogue also heavily implies that The Knight could actually feel emotions previously, since the part of The Knight's "transformation" that she comments on is that she can't sense any emotions from it, so that also probably solidifies The Knight's base key not having resistance to empathic manip.

 

[Roachman40]

mhm

 

[EliminatorVenom]

It'd be good to ask Armor to comment on this as well. I remember him having some say on the Knight being unified with the Void.

Personally I agree in a strictly wiki-registering sense. To be honest, if this was about Hollow Knight lore speculation, I'd argue that he is, indeed, mindless, and instead acts purely out of his soul reacting to everything that happens around. But since it isn't and evidence-wise my reasoning is a bit lacking, I agree with taking out the mindless part.

I do however disagree with removing the resistances or limiting them to his Voidheart key. It is the whole point of them being a Vessel. In fact, if they have a mind, it is more of a reason to consider them having Resistance to it. The Queen simply couldn't read or feel anything from him thanks to his Voidheart making it so that she can't feel anything from him. She even recognizes that he could have something inside, but she simply couldn't know it.

 

[Justkillme42069]

I do however disagree with removing the resistances or limiting them to his Voidheart key. It is the whole point of them being a Vessel.

I don't get it. I keep saying this, The Knight is a failed vessel, because it isn't pure enough to be unaffected by the infection. Yes, to be pure enough to not be affected by the infection when it's sealed inside them is the reason the vessels were created, but only one of them was actually deemed to have been successful (who wasn't actually successful but I'm getting a bit tired of saying that). All of the others were attempts.

The Knight was a failed attempt at creating a being that would be unaffected by the infection. It was the purpose of The Knight's existence to be resistant towards controlling of the mind and emotions so it could seal the infection, but it was a failure, one of thousands. The Pale King creating the vessels made mistakes somehow in making them non-thinking and non-feeling enough to resist the infection, just like he miscalculated whether the Hollow Knight was actually pure enough to not be possessed.

In fact, if they have a mind, it is more of a reason to consider them having Resistance to it. The Queen simply couldn't read or feel anything from him thanks to his Voidheart making it so that she can't feel anything from him. She even recognizes that he could have something inside, but she simply couldn't know it.

I think this could do with a rephrasing tbh, I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here. If The Knight still has thoughts and feelings but the White Lady can't sense them, that doesn't prove anything about it being resistant to mind or empathic manip. Resistant to mind reading maybe, lol. Also

The Knight is still just as intelligent as before even after getting voidheart, and the White Lady only comments on The Knight not being able to feel anything, so resistance to empathic manipulation is fine but not mind manipulation.
This dialogue also heavily implies that The Knight could actually feel emotions previously, since the part of The Knight's "transformation" that she comments on is that she can't sense any emotions from it, so that also probably solidifies The Knight's base key not having resistance to empathic manip.

 

[Armorchompy]

The way I see it, the Knight was barely a failed attempt. The King thought the Hollow Knight was successful, yet he wasn't, so clearly his judgement was clouded in that regard. But we see even the Pure Vessel, which is unquestionably fully hollow, use intelligent sword techniques and fight smartly, so that's not an argument.

Also, just because he's a failed vessel, doesn't mean he isn't close to that ideal form. The Hollow Knight was able to contain the Radiance for centuries (?) so clearly he must be pretty close to perfection nonetheless. I think it's fine for Vessels to have those resistances, just to a lesser extent.

 

[Justkillme42069]

The Hollow Knight was able to contain the Radiance for centuries (?) so clearly he must be pretty close to perfection nonetheless.

I think that's just because it was locked in a big capsule thing with three seals on it, but whatever, I'll just accept it. This would probably just keep going in circles if I keep refuting. It's possible the Hollow Knight was resisting control from the Radiance periodically during its boss fight to stab itself, so I guess some minor resistance to it would be fine.

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with it being a minor resistance. The Radiance had an unknown but very long amount of time to gain control over the HK's mind since it's not like the Infection began to leak out right after she was sealed inside it, and even after centuries of that the HK was able to resist it.

 

[Justkillme42069]

The Radiance had an unknown but very long amount of time to gain control over the HK's mind since it's not like the Infection began to leak out right after she was sealed inside it, and even after centuries of that the HK was able to resist it.

Can you point me to all the stuff in the game that tells you this? The timeframe the HK was locked up for I believe but I'd still like some confirmation of it being centuries. And again, the HK was locked in a big hyper-durable capsule thing with three locks on it that can only be opened by finding all the dreamers, and HKs body was chained up inside it as well, even if the Radiance was able to control HK without much difficulty she wouldn't be able to do anything with it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Can you point me to all the stuff in the game that tells you this? The timeframe the HK was locked up for I believe but I'd still like some confirmation of it being centuries.

I don't actually know if it was centuries, I vaguely recall some stuff like that but point is, it was a lot of time. As for the Infection not leaking out immediately, mostly context clues admittedly. For example: "MEMORIAL TO THE HOLLOW KNIGHT In the Black Vault far above. Through its sacrifice Hallownest lasts eternal" the HK's memorial wouldn't really have been built if the Infection immediately began to spread.

Also, Quirrel says "And what a time I chose to arrive! This dead world has sprung to life. The creatures are riled up and the earth rumbles. The air is thick. I wonder what could have brought it all about?" implying that the majority of the infection's events are actually fairly recent.

And again, the HK was locked in a big hyper-durable capsule thing with three locks on it that can only be opened by finding all the dreamers, and HKs body was chained up inside it as well, even if the Radiance was able to control HK without much difficulty she wouldn't be able to do anything with it.

Yes, but the Infection would have began leaking out immediately if that was the case.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I don't get it. I keep saying this, The Knight is a failed vessel, because it isn't pure enough to be unaffected by the infection. Yes, to be pure enough to not be affected by the infection when it's sealed inside them is the reason the vessels were created, but only one of them was actually deemed to have been successful (who wasn't actually successful but I'm getting a bit tired of saying that). All of the others were attempts.

The Knight was a failed attempt at creating a being that would be unaffected by the infection. It was the purpose of The Knight's existence to be resistant towards controlling of the mind and emotions so it could seal the infection, but it was a failure, one of thousands. The Pale King creating the vessels made mistakes somehow in making them non-thinking and non-feeling enough to resist the infection, just like he miscalculated whether the Hollow Knight was actually pure enough to not be possessed.

I agree with that in that they weren't successful, but note that a successful one would endure against the Radiance's mind control forever, while even the Hollow Knight was good enough to ocasionally recover control for a few moments even after getting dominated by the infection. (During the battle with him, we can see the HK stabbing himself)

Even if they couldn't endure forever like how the project was supposed to go, the better Vessels can resist the Radiance's influence far better and for a longer time than anyone else.

I think this could do with a rephrasing tbh, I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here. If The Knight still has thoughts and feelings but the White Lady can't sense them, that doesn't prove anything about it being resistant to mind or empathic manip. Resistant to mind reading maybe, lol. Also

Oh, I wasn't trying to prove that he was resistant to mind or empathic manipulation, just that the Queen couldn't read him. So, even if he had an "idea instilled", like the HK did, the Queen wouldn't be able to sense it.

Eh, I'm fine with the Empathic Manipulation Resistance being taken out of base form, that argument makes a lot of sense. I'm still of opinion that his resist to Mind Manipulation should stay, but your arguments are compelling. (If this was a lore bit I'd use that as evidence that he uses his soul to react to the environment, not mind, but-)

 

[Armorchompy]

I still think all resistances a Vessel should have, including Empathic Manip, should go to the Knight and the Hollow Knight, just to a lower degree.

 

[Justkillme42069]

Do any of you have objections to changing The Knight's actual intelligence tho?

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with that

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that it seems fine and uncontroversial to change the Intelligence section of the page according with the first post.

 

[Justkillme42069]

I'll just go do that then I guess

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should I close this thread now then?

 

[Justkillme42069]

ehhhh yeah sure

 

[Antvasima]

Just to clarify, is there anything else left to do here?

 

[BlastX]

It is unified with the void as said, The knight is even considered empty by the white lady after acquiring it.

"That pulsing emptiness... Truly, it has been transformed by the revelations it found.
Does it... feel anything? Triumph? Or hate? If it does, I cannot sense it.
The fate of our Kingdom, our Hallownest... that future belongs to you now."

Sorry for the Necro but the description of the VoidHeart literally says it's unified under the bearers will, so that disproves it being mindless.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think?