High-Universal Black Clover

[Damage3245]

Why doesn't ANY universal character in fiction consistently destroy the universe too?

This is hardly a sound refutation at all.

It does raise an issue of consistency here. If their attacks can only destroy the Glamour World and never the Universe, then it is possible it is just a weakness of the Glamour World and not to do with the AP of the attacks.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Via hax

Why would it be?

 

[Majinere566]

2. This feat is done by a fodder character and there's 0 material proof that this dimension extends to that length as said above, plus I don't think a random scrawny teen with questionable hairstyle choices would be able to tell what's endless and what's not, especially given that he's most likely human and most likely can't see beyond 20km

I don't agree with the feat at all but what you're saying here I don't agree with either, His body feature and Hair choices have no correlation to what he can sense or see

 

[PsychoWarper]

Yami, in a canon anime-only episode, cuts through the Glamour World.

The overall issue with this thread is, while the feat itself holds up to par, there is quite literally nothing else in the entire series that comes close to replicate this feat. This is made abundantly clear, as Nacht, the most knowledgeable person in the series, accosts the strongest villain so far would only destroy the world at his awakening.

I agree with this, every feat of this caliber is directly related to this singular Spell, nothing else even comes close even by characters massively more powerful then her. It just isn’t consistent.

 

[Avengershows]

I don't agree with the feat at all but what you're saying here I don't agree with either, His body feature and Hair choices have no correlation to what he can sense or see

I am aware that they have no correlation, it is just a joke

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Why would it be?

The whole concept of Dimensional slash is cut through space

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Irrelevant, I didnt state her feat is an outlier in a vacuum I stated its an outlier to the rest of the verse.

It's not irrelevant though. It would only make it an outlier if she recreated Glamour World again and it blatantly said it wasn't infinite in the other uses. This is really no different to a character destroying a universe (Since the wiki equates creation and destruction) and then repeating it. Yet somehow it's not consistent.

How did they destroy it? Dorthy did it but afaik theres nothing to prove it was via AP just that the realm couldn’t handle both of them controlling it, Yami did it via a hax that very specifically cuts through dimensions/spatial stuff and… who else has done it and how?

And Yami now has a non-hax spell that is his strongest spell and above DS. That is Death Thrust. So he scales above it. We don't get to a full scene in the manga about how Moris destroyed it.

Is there any other feat in the entire verse that replicates this level that isn’t related to this one spell? Afaik everything else in the series is fairly consistently tier 6 so this is an utterly massive jump based around a single creation feat.

There doesn't need to be a feat that replicates this level of power, that isn't related to it. If this spell is portrayed as what it is and is recreated over and over again, it is not an outlier.

 

[Panache_x]

I thought this was Fun and Games
Think he posted in the wrong session

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Yami, in a canon anime-only episode, cuts through the Glamour World.

The overall issue with this thread is, while the feat itself holds up to par, there is quite literally nothing else in the entire series that comes close to replicate this feat. This is made abundantly clear, as Nacht, the most knowledgeable person in the series, accosts the strongest villain so far would only destroy the world at his awakening.

Sure it's fine to lowball that statement to mean "planet", that is sound. But using that as counter evidence just doesn't hold weight. The Black Clover World is referred to as "the physical world" or "The physical realm". Which is already an implication that it isn't just a planet that is being referred to. Especially since world can already mean "universe." I'd understand more if it was blatantly stated planet, but it's never stated to be planet.

 

[Jibz]

“Endless” is not enough for High Uni. To put it in comparison, Anna (Manifold) had like 10 different statements of infinite in size (which were posted as evidence) and yet people still argued the universe itself wasnt infinite. Ergo, not enough evidence.

What if endless is referring to it endlessly expansive thus make it endless in view because its size doesnt end. Also all the “put this in fun and games” comments. Shut up, yall annoying asf.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The whole concept of Dimensional slash is cut through space

And?

Sure it's fine to lowball that statement to mean "planet", that is sound. But using that as counter evidence just doesn't hold weight. The Black Clover World is referred to as "the physical world" or "The physical realm". Which is already an implication that it isn't just a planet that is being referred to. Especially since world can already mean "universe." I'd understand more if it was blatantly stated planet, but it's never stated to be planet.

But via context and in the face of other feats, planetary is far more logistical. Endless spaces don’t even appear outside of this.

 

[PsychoWarper]

It's not irrelevant though. It would only make it an outlier if she recreated Glamour World again and it blatantly said it wasn't infinite in the other uses. This is really no different to a character destroying a universe (Since the wiki equates creation and destruction) and then repeating it. Yet somehow it's not consistent.

It can absolutely be an outlier if it’s inconsistent with the feats of the rest of the verse, there are characters canonically massively more powerful then her whos best feats arn’t even close to it.

And Yami now has a non-hax spell that is his strongest spell and above DS. That is Death Thrust. So he scales above it. We don't get to a full scene in the manga about how Moris destroyed it.

Hold up does the Yami one only happen in the anime and not the Manga? If its anime only afaik its non-canon.

There doesn't need to be a feat that replicates this level of power, that isn't related to it. If this spell is portrayed as what it is and is recreated over and over again, it is not an outlier.

Yes there does as its inconsistent, it would be one thing if anyone else even got into tier 3 but no other character gets beyond Tier 6 and at best reaches Tier 5. It is not consistent with the rest of the verse.

 

[Jibz]

to the amount of people that dislike this site as a whole but can’t understand why.

naw peeps who say that are both based and right. This site sucks.

 

[JOLTxx]

Luck says: "This place... There's no border. It's endless."

Magna says: "Huh? Luck, you moron. That's not even possible."

Reve (elf-Dorothy) responds to Luck and Magna by saying: "Here in Glamour World....The impossible is possible. It's all the way I want it to be."

Luck is notorious for having some of the best mana-sensory abilities in the series. So his credibility holds weight.

This is so silly on so many levels... Where's your evidence that luck's sensory abilities is credible enough to take his word into consideration? Also something being endless doesn't make it infinite, it's like being in the middle of the ocean and all you can see is water and you're like "this is endless". The word endless is just to emphasize on how big the glamour world is and doesn't in any way imply Infinity.

The first standard is met. As while in Glamour World, Sally calls the spell a world and says it's the biggest spell that a mage could create.

Yes she did create the glamour world but it doesn't relate to AP. Creation feats are not treated as or considered combat applicable unless it's stated, shown or implied that said character battle capabilities relates to the structures one characters energy creates. What you just provided is nothing but pocket realty manipulation or space - time manipulation. And destroying her glamour world would warrant nothing more than pocket reality manipulation or spatial manipulation or limited space-time manipulation instead of universal AP

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

1. Endless is most likely hyperbolic, by most likely i mean most definitely, anyone with any reading literacy beyond being able to read words out loud would agree to that

Endless being the hyperbolic and not its "infinite" definition makes zero sense. Why would Magna call it "impossible" if he thought Luck was being hyperbolic? And reve/dorothy AFFIRMED the Impossible (infinite) definition.

2. This feat is done by a fodder character and there's 0 material proof that this dimension extends to that length as said above, plus I don't think a random scrawny teen with questionable hairstyle choices would be able to tell what's endless and what's not, especially given that he's most likely human and most likely can't see beyond 20km

Everyone relevant upscales from Demon Licht's calc, who is a fodder character in the verse. So this argument makes zero sense. Material proof is not needed to prove it. There's contextual proof that you haven't come close to debunking. Calling Luck, one of the best sensory abilities in the series a random scrawny teen, is just appealing to absurdity.

3. Even if we make an assumption that the word endless here is literal, we don't know if it's just incredibly reality bending hax that would make it endless in the same way a giant circle is endless

lol, what?

4. No other feats in the verse have ever been demonstrated to go even remotely close to this level, so how is it consistent?

Because the feat is replicated over and over again.

5. As for relating to the stars thing, you're making an assumption that those stars and galaxies are actual stars and galaxies and aren't just visual effects which as far as I remember is not accepted by the wiki, esp when it comes to dealing with magic

What is the required standard for stars in created realms or pocket dimensions?

 

[PsychoWarper]

naw peeps who say that are both based and right. This site sucks.

Ive never found a VS site that doesnt suck tbh, Comic Vine, Space Battles, VSBW, VSBW copies, Reddit, Youtube, etc… all suck ass.

Regardless this is derailing as are the “should be F&G” comments.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

And?



But via context and in the face of other feats, planetary is far more logistical. Endless spaces don’t even appear outside of this.

It is logistical if you're attempting to scale Lucifero. But to use it to limit a direct feat, not so much.

 

[Damage3245]

Because the feat is replicated over and over again.

Are there any other Universal feats that do not involve the Glamour World?

 

[Jibz]

Ive never found a VS site that doesnt suck tbh, Comic Vine, Space Battles, VSBW, VSBW copies, Reddit, Youtube. Etc… all suck ass.

Regardless this is derailing as are the “should be F&G” comments.

High uni thread using “endless” as evidence

Can ya blame me for not taking it seriously. Fair enough ill only comment if its pertinent starting from now.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

And?

Which is Hax, something explicitly obvious by our standards and by Yami's page. Cutting space is a characteristic of his Dimensional Slash, not something that scales to AP. Literally, the Dimensional Slash is considered the key to 90% of Yami's matches thanks to being something that ignores durability. The son of a bitch can even cut EE spells using this magic

 

[JOLTxx]

Endless being the hyperbolic and not its "infinite" definition makes zero sense. Why would Magna call it "impossible" if he thought Luck was being hyperbolic? And reve/dorothy AFFIRMED the Impossible (infinite) definition.

You're literally wasting everyone's time, you have insufficient evidence to support your claim and you're going of speculative analysis using an ambiguous word that means several things and you want everyone to abandon their own interpretation of it for yours because?. Either ways it goes without saying that "endless" is simply not enough an evidence to completely prove something is Infinite

 

[PsychoWarper]

Can ya blame me for not taking it seriously. Fair enough ill only comment if its pertinent starting from now.

Nah theres definitely reasons, honestly most people take this site to seriously tbh.

 

[Jibz]

Endless being the hyperbolic and not its "infinite" definition makes zero sense. Why would Magna call it "impossible" if he thought Luck was being hyperbolic? And reve/dorothy AFFIRMED the Impossible (infinite) definition.

Me when endless suddenly means infinite now. You do realise endless can mean infinitely/endlessly expanding. That would also fit said description and also not be infinite.

 

[Nierre]

I share the same opinions as @JOLTxx

 

[Avengershows]

Endless being the hyperbolic and not its "infinite" definition makes zero sense. Why would Magna call it "impossible" if he thought Luck was being hyperbolic? And reve/dorothy AFFIRMED the Impossible (infinite) definition.

Endless does not neccesairly always mean infinite in size. Again, as I said above, a circle is endless, but it is not infinite in size. Endless literally just means "without end"

random scrawny teen

Him having good sensory skills won't change the fact that he's scrawny

Because the feat is replicated over and over again.

Is there an example of any other feat excluding the Glamor World that's on this level?

AFFIRMED

Your affirmation is "Here in the Glamor World... The impossible is possible" is a contradiction, to create an impossibility she has to be within the world, but the impossibility is the world itself and it's creation, which doesn't work, at best that statement is just hax.

 

[SuperStar]

I agree with this, every feat of this caliber is directly related to this singular Spell, nothing else even comes close even by characters massively more powerful then her. It just isn’t consistent.

Especially when the feats around this arc were Island to Country

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This is so silly on so many levels... Where's your evidence that luck's sensory abilities is credible enough to take his word into consideration? Also something being endless doesn't make it infinite, it's like being in the middle of the ocean and all you can see is water and you're like "this is endless". The word endless is just to emphasize on how big the glamour world is and doesn't in any way imply Infinity.

The fact you can't properly read the argument is silly. I provided the scan that is said Luck is known for his sensory ability. Which proves the statement is made by a credible source. I dare you to look up the definition for infinite, by the way.
I've already addressed this refutation in the actual post so it's funny that you're just rehashing it.

It makes no sense for Magna to think that Luck is just saying "This spell really big.". Which is essentially what amounts to your ocean analogy. In fact, Sally even says "This must be the biggest spell one can possibly create," Manga just says "Dunno." Whereas Luck saying "Endless" Magna calls it impossible. This means that the "infinite" Definition of endless is being used, otherwise the dialogue is redundant. Reve affirms the "Impossible" (Infinite) Endless.

Yes she did create the glamour world but it doesn't relate to AP. Creation feats are not treated as or considered combat applicable unless it's stated, shown or implied that said character battle capabilities relates to the structures one characters energy creates. What you just provided is nothing but pocket realty manipulation or space - time manipulation. And destroying her glamour world would warrant nothing more than pocket reality manipulation or spatial manipulation or limited space-time manipulation instead of universal AP

Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.



Using the same pool of energy used to create said dimension.

Examples of destruction, Glamour world collapses from the clashes of their dreams.

 

[Aether2734]

It's not even physical space from i know right?
It just dream manipulation and pocket reality manipulation,
Iirc there is morris statement about glamour world is intangible
I don't recall infinite prison from tensura, or unlimited blade works from FSN is being H3A

 

[SuperStar]

Also, even if she was High Uni, does this scale to anyone?

 

[Avengershows]

a majority of this thread is purely based on statmenets that are extremely vague and statements that are full of holes in logic, this thread should just be closed

 

[PsychoWarper]

Afaik on this site being called Endless is not sufficient evidence for Infinite since it can be hyperbolic or mean things besides Infinite.

Also Luck being a very good Sensory absolutely does not prove he can sense something of infinite size, he has no feats of it and him stating its Endless is no different then me stating the Ocean is endless. I could be able to sense around myself in a 100 mile radius and still not find the end to the Ocean so I would still consider it Endless. Magna saying it’s impossible and whats her face saying whats impossible is possible here could absolutely mean its just really ******* big if they consider making something so large impossible.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Endless does not neccesairly always mean infinite in size. Again, as I said above, a circle is endless, but it is not infinite in size. Endless literally just means "without end"

Endless is in the primary definiton of infinite. Using the circle argument is disanalogous to Glamour World. Especially the context of what is happening in the scene. Creating a circle that is endless wouldn't be grounds for characters being impressed.

Is there an example of any other feat excluding the Glamor World that's on this level?

Feats, no. Statements, yes.

Your affirmation is "Here in the Glamor World... The impossible is possible" is a contradiction, to create an impossibility she has to be within the world, but the impossibility is the world itself and it's creation, which doesn't work, at best that statement is just hax.

That isn't a contradiction?

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Especially when the feats around this arc were Island to Country

There are only island to country-level feats. Yet this feat exists in the same arc. So the statement is incorrect. There are island, country, and high-uni feats that arc.

 

[Avengershows]

Endless is in the primary definiton of infinite. Using the circle argument is disanalogous to Glamour World. Especially the context of what is happening in the scene. Creating a circle that is endless wouldn't be grounds for characters being impressed.

And you're intentionally misinterpreting the definition of infinite and how that wording is used, "endless in space", not just "endless". If you look up the definition of endless you literally get "having or seeming to have no end or limit."

Creating a circle that is endless wouldn't be grounds for characters being impressed.

As for this part, are you seriously unable to comprehend analogies? I'm not saying it's a circle, I'm saying that the word "endless" can also apply to a circle. As I said originally, even if the statement is taken as non hyperbolic, it's at best just spatial manipulation

Feats, no. Statements, yes.

Statments such as "muh infinite stamina" are dumb because having infinite mana or stamina does not necessairly mean you can release that level of energy.

That isn't a contradiction?

It is, she says that the impossible is possible IN the world. To create that world she'd have to be outside it

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

a majority of this thread is purely based on statmenets that are extremely vague and statements that are full of holes in logic, this thread should just be closed

Not vague at all. Explain the holes in logic. I'm only following the rules of the standards for creating pocket dimensions.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Outliers.

 

[PsychoWarper]

There are only island to country-level feats. Yet this feat exists in the same arc. So the statement is incorrect. There are island, country, and high-uni feats that arc.

Theres island level, country level and an outlier that’s inconsistent with the rest of the verse.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Afaik on this site being called Endless is not sufficient evidence for Infinite since it can be hyperbolic or mean things besides Infinite.

sigh. I agree. If there was only Luck saying endless I wouldn't even make the argument. But it's the fact that they have a whole argument about the impossibility of something being endless (Only makes sense if using infinite definition), and the creator of the spells affirms the crazy definition.

Also Luck being a very good Sensory absolutely does not prove he can sense something of infinite size, he has no feats of it and him stating its Endless is no different then me stating the Ocean is endless. I could be able to sense around myself in a 100 mile radius and still not find the end to the Ocean so I would still consider it Endless. Magna saying it’s impossible and whats her face saying whats impossible is possible here could absolutely mean its just really ******* big if they consider making something so large impossible.

I've gone over ad nauseam how this literally doesn't even change anything. If the two of us are sitting on a boat in the middle of the ocean, and you say "it's endless" and I say "That's not possible" it's fairly obvious that I'm assuming that you are using the literal and infinite definition of endless. Reve affirms the more absurd aspect of the definition.

 

[Panache_x]

Black Clover should be High-Universal. I thought it was silly when I first heard the arguments and laughed it off. This is probably going to be one of the most controversial posts on the Black Clover page, as this will sound crazy to many people. But something "sounding crazy" isn't really relevant as long as it is factually supported. So please consider all of the evidence.

The evidence for Black Clover being High-Universal stems from the fact that it was stated and affirmed that Glamour World is an infinite-sized realm. And because creation feats can be scaled to attack potency, this would make Dorothy and anyone who scales to/above her as High-Universal. But before proving that her creation feat should scale to her AP as considered by this wiki's standards, I'll provide you with the evidence that shows that Glamour World is infinite in size:

While in Glamour World, the conversation goes as follows...

Luck says: "This place... There's no border. It's endless."

Magna says: "Huh? Luck, you moron. That's not even possible."

Reve (elf-Dorothy) responds to Luck and Magna by saying: "Here in Glamour World....The impossible is possible. It's all the way I want it to be."

Luck is notorious for having some of the best mana-sensory abilities in the series. So his credibility holds weight. Magna questions the impossibility of this being an infinite-sized spell. But Reve affirms the infinite size by stating "Here in Glamour world.... the impossible is possible." This means we have one statement by a credible character calling the spell infinite, and another statement by the creator of said spell affirming it. This is sufficient evidence that Glamour World is infinite in size.

Many will try and argue that the definition that Luck intended for "endless" was "Very big", as an alternate definition for endless is "Something seeming to have no end or border." But using that context makes no sense for the discussion. Magna clearly took Luck's intended definition of Endless as the "infinite" one. Or else he wouldn't have called it impossible to be true. And besides, Reve affirmed the "impossible" portion of what they were arguing about. So via a preponderance of evidence, Glamour World is an infinite-sized realm. Further support for this is that one of the creatures that Dorothy creates can seemingly eat or has a galaxy inside of it. Even if Glamour World wasn't Infinite there are many stars in the background which would make it 4-A.

Now of course there are standards that need to be met for creation of pocket-dimensions to scale to a characters AP/stats.

• There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location.

The first standard is met. As while in Glamour World, Sally calls the spell a world and says it's the biggest spell that a mage could create. This means that Dorothy/Reve does actually create Glamour World, not just teleporting them there. Also, when Reve and Dorothy Clash, Glamour World is destroyed. Yet days later Dorothy is still shown to be able to use Glamour World. This means that she was able to recreate it. This is repeated again, as Yami would destroy Glamour World in the Anime-Canon, yet she could use it against Moris in the manga. We know that Glamour World isn't just an illusion, as Megicula's forbidden curses are not effective in Glamour World because it is stated to be a separate space.

• There should be some reason to consider the backgrounds stars, not just painted decorations within a throne room or museum.

I'd argue that the second standard isn't really that important to the argument since the realm is infinite. But, the stars in Glamour World are shown to twinkle, gleam, and glow in the anime. Which provides evidence that the stars aren't just "painted" in her realm.

• Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.

The third standard is also met. As Dorothy/Reve uses mana to create Glamour World, which is the same pool of energy she would use to enhance her stats. Also, the same pool of energy that other characters use to fight her. When Reve first uses Glamour World, she opens her grimoire, and says "Dream Magic: Glamour World". This is proof that it is her spell. Mana is used to create spells. Drowa, Sally, and Magna all refer to Glamour world as a spell. All proving that it was made by mana. It's further backed up when heroes force Reve to spawn Dorothy, and the two duke it out. The clash of their dreams proves to be too much for the infinite realm and destroys it.


So basically anyone who scales to or above Reve/Dorothy in the elf-arc and beyond would have High 3-A AP and Durability. That's a lot of characters so don't really need to start listing them off.

OK...just read through this and it's funnily really solid
It Scaling to her AP is quite good... validation of it being created by her
And Sally statement of "it's the largest spell" would actually still help the size justification
The Galaxy is seemingly ok...not the stars anyways
This would just be difficult to accept cause "It's Black Clover"
U can shove in the Lucifero full Manifestation can end the world ...

Not saying I agree...Yet

 

[Jibz]

Endless is in the primary definiton of infinite. Using the circle argument is disanalogous to Glamour World. Especially the context of what is happening in the scene. Creating a circle that is endless wouldn't be grounds for characters being impressed

Argument by definition is a fallacy ya know.