High School DxD Downgrade: 2-A Cosmology

[Digital_Franz]

I have been planning this downgrade for a long time.

The 2-A rating of the cosmology was accepted in this thread, a thread where we were all fooled by this sandbox that we didn't read, especially the scans.

Well, it's all well and good that I say we were fooled, now we have to prove it. First I agreed with the thread to upgrade cosmology without reading the blog, just because the OP mentioned infinite possibilities and was trying to argue Low 1-C, which was my main point of contention, neglecting the rest. So cosmology is 2-A using the Many-World Interpretation argument and infinite possibilities.

Infinite Possibilities​

There are issues with the infinite possibilities stuff:

• Scans and their contexts in this link.

The first scan, the funniest of all. It talks about breasts. Literally breasts. This scan is unusable. Contrary to what the one who upgraded the verse claims, this does not correlate in any way with the timelines, being here only his own addition. The scan talks about what he can do with breasts, as seen in episode 5 of DxD Hero where he summoned Rias Gremory just to press her breasts and get a powerup, nothing more here. Another funny passage where Rias's big brother suggested him to use Boost on Rias' breasts. These are the possibilities in question.

The second scan is the same scan, nothing more.

The third scan is just as fun. The scan talks about match formation and possibilities and it's used for scaling, lol.

The fourth scan. He talks about the power of the breasts that can give him random powerups, hinting at possibilities, here nothing material and usable for scaling.

The fifth scan. So peak this scan. Literally, nothing usable here. It mentions possibilities that "can occur" following the throwing of a rock. It's such a basic thing. With a soccer ball coming towards us, we have several possibilities, I don't see anything here that can be added for scaling. If you open this link again, you will see that the one who published the scan is trying to justify something. What he says there unfortunately comes purely from his own invention, nothing mentioning the creation of anything.

The sixth scan. This one is so funny. It just refers to the potential of the young people whose training is taken care of by a certain character, nothing more.

The seventh scan. Not only is it vague, but the context here refers to the future, mentioning the fact that there are an infinite number of possibilities open to a person.

All this comes from a misuse of possibilities. Possibilities do not exist, they can occur.

• Misleading interpretation of scans.

There is a big misleading here. Only one world is created here, with Innovate Clear having the ability to create a world while Telos Karma the History Breaker manipulates causality. So only one world is created with the help of Innovate Clear while Telos Karma allows to alter causality, forcing impossible outcomes at improbable times. Telos Karma does not create anything, it just allows to manipulate causality and the fate of the world already created.

Many-Worlds Interpretation​

The justification of these guys is the most absurd thing ever. The justification is here. So absurd, so wrong. So the scan they used talks about timelines splitting when the past is changed, which is absolutely not consistent with the Many-Worlds Interpretation theory. The timeline splits here only happen when the past is changed, while the Many-Worlds Interpretation wants at least these splits to be made to accommodate all possibilities of an action in the present. Moreover, to their justification, they add their own deductions and personal thoughts like "the future is infinite so there are infinitely many timelines created" lol.

It's simple here: the verse does not follow the Many-Worlds Interpretation theory.


With all this said, one thing is clear: the cosmology is not 2-A and should be downgraded to 2-C.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

FoIIowing, wouId read it tomorrow.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The logic that was accepted was that, due to the existence of MWI in the verse, these "infinite possibilities" (with the valid one particularly being the "throw a rock" statement) exist somewhere. Since multiple actions create timelines, by having infinite possible actions, we end up with 2-A timelines.

I tagged the experts as I was unsure this qualified at all and they agreed, so I will call them here: @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 since you were the main staff that answered my tag, I call you once more here to resolve this.

 

[Digital_Franz]

The logic that was accepted was that, due to the existence of MWI in the verse, these "infinite possibilities" (with the valid one particularly being the "throw a rock" statement) exist somewhere.

And now I realize that the MWI is not valid since timelines are created only due to changes in the past.

Since multiple actions create timelines, by having infinite possible actions, we end up with 2-A timelines.

Honestly, no scan shows that an action creates a timeline, none.

I tagged the experts as I was unsure this qualified at all and they agreed, so I will call them here: @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 since you were the main staff that answered my tag, I call you once more here to resolve this.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, this downgrade makes sense. Also, lol at some of those scans.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, this downgrade makes sense. Also, lol at some of those scans.

Ajem, you literally accepted them in the past thread

Thanks for coming

 

[Digital_Franz]

Also, lol at some of those scans.

Fr.

Ajem, you literally accepted them in the past thread

Not reading shi-

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

looks good, I agree.

 

[Rutæhh]

The first scan, the funniest of all. It talks about breasts. Literally breasts.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

Agree with the OP

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

The only timelines we know of are the anime timeline, the LN timeline, the original timeline, the What-If timeline, and the future timeline, for a total of 5.
Thanks to DxD EX we know that there are more timelines than those 5 but we are never given an exact number, we are only told that a large number of timelines were generated and that they continue to be generated. Well, they can be infinite.

 

[Digital_Franz]

The only timelines we know of are the anime timeline, the LN timeline, the original timeline, the What-If timeline, and the future timeline, for a total of 5.
Thanks to DxD EX we know that there are more timelines than those 5 but we are never given an exact number, we are only told that a large number of timelines were generated and that they continue to be generated. Well, they can be infinite.

They can? We're not here to guess.

 

[Da3ggman]

We got boob scaling before GTA6 ain’t no way-

Anyway uhh obviously agree with the downgrade, it’s absolutely silly that this passed lmao.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

My type of jokes, just funny as hell. One of the reasons why I got Issei as my name, they really used the grabbing dragon's power as justification lol.

I will be irrational; there's no way I would ever agree with a DxD downgrade as a real fan.

CRT speaks facts, so agree.

 

[SCARECROW1983]

Infinite Possibilities​

There are issues with the infinite possibilities stuff:

• Scans and their contexts in this link.

The first scan, the funniest of all. It talks about breasts. Literally breasts. This scan is unusable. Contrary to what the one who upgraded the verse claims, this does not correlate in any way with the timelines, being here only his own addition. The scan talks about what he can do with breasts, as seen in episode 5 of DxD Hero where he summoned Rias Gremory just to press her breasts and get a powerup, nothing more here. Another funny passage where Rias's big brother suggested him to use Boost on Rias' breasts. These are the possibilities in question.

The second scan is the same scan, nothing more.

This point is easy to explain, what's wrong with talking about breasts? There literally even exists a god of breasts, that's part of the logic of dxd. Also, do you pay attention to the explanation on the blog? here I leave you what it says

"To add further detail, Oppai's scans reference the infinite possibilities of what powers Issei could obtain from them and how he could obtain them, directly correlating to the differences between the timelines. Issei unlocked Dress Break during V1 in the anime while it was on LN, it is Volume 2. It uses Pailingual for the first time during the events of Volume 6 in the anime, while on LN, it is Volume 5. Issei uses Pailingual for the first time to see past events in volume 9 of the anime while it is Volume 7 of LN."

Scanning was used because it correlates with the differences between the different possibilities of the timelines, so the infinite possibilities of this do have to do with the different timelines.

The third scan is just as fun. The scan talks about match formation and possibilities and it's used for scaling, lol.

Now again, this scan was not done because as explained in the blog

"In High School DxD, timelines are spawned via various methods like time traveling, actions made after time traveling, or even just any possible action or possible inaction"

Since there are infinite possibilities in something, it means that there are infinite actions/inactions that can come out of it, which goes hand in hand with how the dxd multiverse works.

The fourth scan. He talks about the power of the breasts that can give him random powerups, hinting at possibilities, here nothing material and usable for scaling.

This is already explained in the first point so I don't see the point in repeating it but to add as extra information, as explained in the blog, the difference between the timelines of anime and novels is not the only factor to take into account. There are also changes to the story and abilities, even in appearance, such as Issei's dragon arm or Issei's ability to alter space-time in the anime.

The fifth scan. So peak this scan. Literally, nothing usable here. It mentions possibilities that "can occur" following the throwing of a rock. It's such a basic thing. With a soccer ball coming towards us, we have several possibilities, I don't see anything here that can be added for scaling. If you open this link again, you will see that the one who published the scan is trying to justify something. What he says there unfortunately comes purely from his own invention, nothing mentioning the creation of anything.

If this scan is explained based on all of the above, telos karma manipulates possibilities, impossibilities and causality and as mentioned above, for each action and inaction timelines are created.

"And as for Telos Karma (Volume 25 screenshot), its power is to choose "choices" or "possibilities" and force whichever he chooses to occur and each of these choices is a new history, or timeline. As stated multiple times"

This is the explanation on the blog Telos Karma gives a clear explanation of how the possibilities work based on your ability.

The sixth scan. This one is so funny. It just refers to the potential of the young people whose training is taken care of by a certain character, nothing more.

Yes, there is talk of Issei's potential, whose potential is related to the oppai's scans.

The seventh scan. Not only is it vague, but the context here refers to the future, mentioning the fact that there are an infinite number of possibilities open to a person.

Again, as explained in the blog, the multiverse works with actions and inactions and this scan only shows that the characters have infinite options to choose from which gives way to infinite actions and inactions


All this comes from a misuse of possibilities. Possibilities do not exist, they can occur.



Did you come to that conclusion why? There they are just explaining that timelines can be created for changes in the past when the blog shows that if those possibilities exist, at least you can demonstrate that they do not exist, I don't see why to think otherwise.

Here the author talks about other possibilities that go completely hand in hand with how the dxd multiverse works.

• Misleading interpretation of scans.

There is a big misleading here. Only one world is created here, with Innovate Clear having the ability to create a world while Telos Karma the History Breaker manipulates causality. So only one world is created with the help of Innovate Clear while Telos Karma allows to alter causality, forcing impossible outcomes at improbable times. Telos Karma does not create anything, it just allows to manipulate causality and the fate of the world already created.

and at this point it is only explained why it is taken that telos karma creates worlds, telos karma can manipulate the possibilities and more, when altering the world this happens, a world is created where Mitsuya used the ability and one where he did not use it and more depending on the possibilities that there are, a timeline is easily created based on the options you choose, not because he directly creates those timelines.

Many-Worlds Interpretation​

The justification of these guys is the most absurd thing ever. The justification is here. So absurd, so wrong. So the scan they used talks about timelines splitting when the past is changed, which is absolutely not consistent with the Many-Worlds Interpretation theory. The timeline splits here only happen when the past is changed, while the Many-Worlds Interpretation wants at least these splits to be made to accommodate all possibilities of an action in the present. Moreover, to their justification, they add their own deductions and personal thoughts like "the future is infinite so there are infinitely many timelines created" lol.

It's simple here: the verse does not follow the Many-Worlds Interpretation theory.



quite erroneous conclusion since you are clearly taking the blog's explanation out of context, I have ignored a clear example and limited the verse to things that are not, example of which is ignoring information

timelines created by the author of dxd that are based on possibilities unless you can demonstrate that these timelines were created by a change in the past this totally contradicts your conclusion

Another example is in "Rias in Wonderland" where we are shown the illusion of a parallel world where it is indirectly made clear to us that this world exists outside of the illusion.

Another example is in Dx6 if I'm not mistaken where we are shown 2 different universes, one where Issei and others goes to the universe of the LN Oda Nobuna no Yabō and where both universes are the same thing, which is canonical since in junior DxD we are told of the spell using to travel to another universe

If we don't go to official media, there is the fantasy game re:build where a multiverse based on actions and inactions is not explained clearly enough and more exactly like in DxD (this game was written by ishibumi)

 

[Digital_Franz]

Yeah was waiting this.

This point is easy to explain, what's wrong with talking about breasts? There literally even exists a god of breasts, that's part of the logic of dxd.

Yeah the logic of DxD.

Also, do you pay attention to the explanation on the blog?

A lot.

"To add further detail, Oppai's scans reference the infinite possibilities of what powers Issei could obtain from them and how he could obtain them, directly correlating to the differences between the timelines. Issei unlocked Dress Break during V1 in the anime while it was on LN, it is Volume 2. It uses Pailingual for the first time during the events of Volume 6 in the anime, while on LN, it is Volume 5. Issei uses Pailingual for the first time to see past events in volume 9 of the anime while it is Volume 7 of LN."

So uh, here do you realize that this is the sandbox maker's own deduction, assumption and claim? No scan shows that it refers to the differences between timelines. The blog maker is just confusing us with the differences between timelines since the anime doesn't faithfully adapt the novel, just inserting what they think.

Scanning was used because it correlates with the differences between the different possibilities of the timelines, so the infinite possibilities of this do have to do with the different timelines.

Same, no.

Now again, this scan was not done because as explained in the blog

Lol how can I take you seriously here? Did you read the scan? And you say that what is explained in the sandbox did what? It says absolutely nothing. The scan is clear and it is clear that the claims are misleading.

"In High School DxD, timelines are spawned via various methods like time traveling, actions made after time traveling, or even just any possible action or possible inaction"

No scans supporting "any possible action or possible inaction". Can you prove this point with a scan? Both scans are clear: timelines are created because of changes in the past.

Since there are infinite possibilities in something, it means that there are infinite actions/inactions that can come out of it, which goes hand in hand with how the dxd multiverse works.

Peak reasoning fr.

If this scan is explained based on all of the above, telos karma manipulates possibilities, impossibilities and causality and as mentioned above, for each action and inaction timelines are created.

Personal belief. The scan is clear, only one word is created.

"And as for Telos Karma (Volume 25 screenshot), its power is to choose "choices" or "possibilities" and force whichever he chooses to occur and each of these choices is a new history, or timeline. As stated multiple times"

Yeah Causality Manipulation.

This is the explanation on the blog Telos Karma gives a clear explanation of how the possibilities work based on your ability.

Yeah and? It doesn't add anything.

TL;DR: You're not adding anything, just copying the stuff of the page I'm debunking.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

 

[SCARECROW1983]

Yeah was waiting this.


Yeah the logic of DxD.

A lot.

So uh, here do you realize that this is the sandbox maker's own deduction, assumption and claim? No scan shows that it refers to the differences between timelines. The blog maker is just confusing us with the differences between timelines since the anime doesn't faithfully adapt the novel, just inserting what they think.

Same, no.

I was also hoping for this, it may provide evidence that contradicts what has already been mentioned because if not you would be committing 2 fallacies which are "it is" and "it is"

Lol how can I take you seriously here? Did you read the scan? And you say that what is explained in the sandbox did what? It says absolutely nothing. The scan is clear and it is clear that the claims are misleading.

Sure, and you're here stating all that without showing any scans that prove the opposite of the argument.

No scans supporting "any possible action or possible inaction". Can you prove this point with a scan? Both scans are clear: timelines are created because of changes in the past.

Well, then why do you ignore the examples of games, author-made timelines, and parallel universes seen in the novel?

Peak reasoning fr.

And the argument against?

Personal belief. The scan is clear, only one word is created.

Again, can you prove otherwise?

Yeah Causality Manipulation.

Well, why do you limit that to causality? There is literally a thread where it was accepted as manipulation of probabilities or do you have evidence that it is limited to it?

Yeah and? It doesn't add anything.

TL;DR: You're not adding anything, just copying the stuff of the page I'm debunking.

So why are you still ignoring the last thing I posted? You are not providing any real evidence to contradict the blog.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

K so, firstly, saying that because "breasts" are mentioned, the argument is invalid isn't exactly good reasoning if reasoning at all.

In regards to why those statements were chosen to represent the 2-A Cosmology (Since I believe you're misunderstanding), it was because of the examples shown on the page. (Which you removed the context from to make your argument.)
Those examples being the events that revolve around breasts in the series like Issei's usage of Pailingual, Dress Break, etc are shown to be different based on the timeline that they occur in as shown on the page.
We know that changes in the past (which is something Telos Karma does) results in new timelines, and these timelines are conflated with possibilities in all three scans related to it shown on the page. So logically, Telos Karma creates differing timelines/possibilities and enforces them as being present reality.
And we know that in each timeline, certain events are different. Specifically related to breasts, so when one of the smartest characters in the verse (that has dealt with timeline shenanigans before) says that the possibilities related to breasts are infinite, logically, that would mean that the number of timelines is as well.

All this comes from a misuse of possibilities. Possibilities do not exist, they can occur.

• Misleading interpretation of scans.

? It literally says "simply by throwing a rock, a variety of possibilities are created" are you saying that things that are created do not exist? The Scan provided by you contradicts what you're saying. And how it it misleading? I'm literally just showing what it says.

There is a big misleading here. Only one world is created here, with Innovate Clear having the ability to create a world while Telos Karma the History Breaker manipulates causality. So only one world is created with the help of Innovate Clear while Telos Karma allows to alter causality, forcing impossible outcomes at improbable times. Telos Karma does not create anything, it just allows to manipulate causality and the fate of the world already created.

I don't think I'm the one with the misleading interpretation. It literally states, and I'm not paraphrasing, "That Longinus is capable of creating the choices that are impossible" when referring to the variety of possible outcomes. The Basis of your argument is that the only ability possessed by Telos Karma is to manipulate causality when that isn't true, it allows the user to tangibly create numerous possibilities/impossibilities, then makes that possibility the user's reality. (enforcing the choice as the LN calls it) All Longinus have two abilities and saying otherwise simply isn't true.

Many-Worlds Interpretation​

The justification of these guys is the most absurd thing ever. The justification is here. So absurd, so wrong. So the scan they used talks about timelines splitting when the past is changed, which is absolutely not consistent with the Many-Worlds Interpretation theory. The timeline splits here only happen when the past is changed,

Uh, when does it say only?

And another thing, when you showed the scans I provided, you didn't really debunk anything. Just said "This is nothing, this is meaningless, this can't be used" without providing any solid explanation, and when you actually did go into your arguments, you were the one who misinterpreted scans and was misleading. In conclusion, I don't really think there's much more to discuss, nothing has changed since the OP was made regarding Tier 2-A or Tier 2-C that would change its placement on its own, and I've disproven Franz' CRT, so I don't quite understand Planck69's evalution of this thread given it was perfectly fine goind into 2-A. And the comment they made regarding the scans almost makes it seem like they didn't even look at the scans in the original thread that they evaluated.

And in case anyone asks, anything you want sourced is already done in the OP or the Page in question.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Yes, I disagree with all that.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Wow, multiverse-sized breasts... Has anyone invented a bra that size?

Anyway, this seems clear cut. Why was a scan about Rias' breasts being infinite ever used in the first place?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Wow, multiverse-sized breasts... Has anyone invented a bra that size?

Anyway, this seems clear cut. Why was a scan about Rias' breasts being infinite ever used in the first place?

Read my earlier comment.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Read my earlier comment.

Ah, so the thrown rock has lots of possibilities. The breasts thing is just Issei's brain translating the subject. Technically he can do lots of different things with them and each different decision can be considered to be a different possibility...

I swear, if true, this is the most dumbed down and stupid way of describing such a multiverse I've ever seen... Though it suits Issei who is himself a complete dumbo.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I was also hoping for this, it may provide evidence that contradicts what has already been mentioned because if not you would be committing 2 fallacies which are "it is" and "it is"

Hmm what?

Sure, and you're here stating all that without showing any scans that prove the opposite of the argument.

The OP is clear with scans.

Well, then why do you ignore the examples of games, author-made timelines, and parallel universes seen in the novel?

Never ignored them. The author stated they are separate timelines, not timelines created because of action or inaction. You get the difference?

And the argument against?

In the OP.

Again, can you prove otherwise?

In the OP.

Well, why do you limit that to causality? There is literally a thread where it was accepted as manipulation of probabilities or do you have evidence that it is limited to it?

And? Probabilities==timelines? Get the definition of probability. Probabilities are chances of an event occurring, don't add anything here.

So why are you still ignoring the last thing I posted? You are not providing any real evidence to contradict the blog.

Last thing you posted? Literally there was nothing new and everything is addressed in th

 

[Digital_Franz]

(Which you removed the context from to make your argument.)

Removed nothing. Your so claimed context is just non-existent.

Those examples being the events that revolve around breasts in the series like Issei's usage of Pailingual, Dress Break, etc are shown to be different based on the timeline that they occur in as shown on the page.

No. It's your personal belied, the scan doesn't imply this and is talking about a lot of thing Issei can do with Breasts, not correlating with the timelines. Possibilities in question.

We know that changes in the past (which is something Telos Karma does) results in new timelines, and these timelines are conflated with possibilities in all three scans related to it shown on the page. So logically, Telos Karma creates differing timelines/possibilities and enforces them as being present reality.

No, Telos Karma does not create possibilities, but makes existing possibilities happen. The scan itself says so.

And we know that in each timeline, certain events are different. Specifically related to breasts, so when one of the smartest characters in the verse (that has dealt with timeline shenanigans before) says that the possibilities related to breasts are infinite, logically, that would mean that the number of timelines is as well.

Never related to breasts. Just drop scans to support your claim. Always with "logically that would mean" but nothing to support your claim, the scans do not imply this.

? It literally says "simply by throwing a rock, a variety of possibilities are created"

Uh you read that in the scan it is literally "they can occur"? "they are created" is your own addition, personal belief.

are you saying that things that are created do not exist?

They arent created though.

The Scan provided by you contradicts what you're saying. And how it it misleading? I'm literally just showing what it says.

It contradict? I'm reading the scan, not what you put down.

I don't think I'm the one with the misleading interpretation. It literally states, and I'm not paraphrasing, "That Longinus is capable of creating the choices that are impossible" when referring to the variety of possible outcomes.

Yeah it refers to the fact that as it can make possibilities come true, even impossible ones come true.

The Basis of your argument is that the only ability possessed by Telos Karma is to manipulate causality when that isn't true, it allows the user to tangibly create numerous possibilities/impossibilities, then makes that possibility the user's reality. (enforcing the choice as the LN calls it) All Longinus have two abilities and saying otherwise simply isn't true.

Yeah doesn't change much. Probability Manipulation.

Uh, when does it say only?

What is the reason why there were divisions? Where does it say that it is not only because of the changes in the past? The two scans although different show one thing: the divisions only occur during changes in the past. When Time Travel enters the equation, MWI cannot be the solution.

And another thing, when you showed the scans I provided, you didn't really debunk anything. Just said "This is nothing, this is meaningless, this can't be used" without providing any solid explanation, and when you actually did go into your arguments, you were the one who misinterpreted scans and was misleading.

I don't think I misinterpreted the scans, just that you guys are adding what isn't in the scans and not taking into account context like possibilities with match formations.

In conclusion, I don't really think there's much more to discuss

Same here. You are not providing anything new, repeating the same arguments.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Ah, so the thrown rock has lots of possibilities. The breasts thing is just Issei's brain translating the subject. Technically he can do lots of different things with them and each different decision can be considered to be a different possibility...

I swear, if true, this is the most dumbed down and stupid way of describing such a multiverse I've ever seen... Though it suits Issei who is himself a complete dumbo.

The thing is, he's misleading. The possibilities never correlate to the timelines since each timeline has its own story. The possibilities refer to what he can do with breats.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah, all I can really say is I told you so.

Don't have the patience or time to go through these threads which are constantly getting stonewalled though, and not over DXD. Stopped being the guy that opposed these threads a while ago because the wank became so ridiculous and hard to keep up with, and for some reason staff just didn't actually look any deeper than the surface when accepting this stuff.

Agree with the OP.