Hierophant Green MFTL speed

[ZillertheBucko]

I think there's some kind of mistake made on Kakyoin's profile
as we can see, Kakyoin is able to get polnareff out the way using emerald splash before a mftl attack reaches him, which is not only proof of the emerald splash's speed but also of his reactions, because he seemingly shot after hol horse had.
this is acknowledged on his profile, but there is no kind of justification for this not being mftl. Even the scan showing chariot interrupting his attack are not a valid anti feat, since it is shown that kakyoin was way farther away from the baby than silver chariot was to kakyoin, and there is no way he could have had a chance to dodge since the attack clearly came from behind.
I propose that we restore the speed rating of the emerald splash to mftl due to this inconsistency, especially since I do not seem to be able to find the thread that downgraded it anywhere...
agree: 1
disagree: 2
neutral: 1

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

yeah kakyoins profile is just really weird

small building level physically with 0 reasoning

kakyoin not scaling to heirophant in reaction speed for no reason

and hierophant being rel with the reasoning being several instances of scaling to MFTL characters

 

[ZillertheBucko]

yeah kakyoins profile is just really weird

small building level physically with 0 reasoning

kakyoin not scaling to heirophant in reaction speed for no reason

and hierophant being rel with the reasoning being several instances of scaling to MFTL characters

you would not understand the relief I just felt that I wasn't missing some major detail

 

[Damage3245]

So? Are you saying that Avdol should have MFTL movement speed too because he was able to push Polnareff out of the way of this same "MFTL attack"?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

MFTL avdol is an outlier and if i remember correctly he started moving before hol horse fired, theres nothing weird about MFTL emerald splash

 

[ZillertheBucko]

So? Are you saying that Avdol should have MFTL movement speed too because he was able to push Polnareff out of the way of this same "MFTL attack"?

well we are talking about two different occassions
that one is an outlier, so it doesn't apply to this, it cant be a feat for avdol or an anti feat for mftl hol horse.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

it would certainly not be an outlier for kakyoin either, considering that he already has a justification on his profile for a "likely higher"

 

[ZillertheBucko]

by the way what are everybody's current stances (neutral disagree agree)?

 

[Funnimane]

Agree

 

[Chariot190]

Holy shit, it's like you just ignored the fact Kak is a inconsistent mess and are blatantly cherry picking his high ends.

Even the scan showing chariot interrupting his attack are not a valid anti feat, since it is shown that kakyoin was way farther away from the baby than silver chariot was to kakyoin, and there is no way he could have had a chance to dodge since the attack clearly came from behind.

It's actually completely valid, Hierophant Green was right atop Mannish Boy moments away from landing a blow, and Chariot comes out and is just like "yeah nah".

Let's not even get into the fact that Dio, who is around the same speed as Chariot and Plat, is literally like a hundred ******* times faster than him. Dio straight up sees that shit in slow motion, if it was MFTL, it wouldn't be seen so slow that Dio can casually block hundreds of shots at once.

And let's not get into the fact that Emperor itself isn't actually fast, what's fast is the manual control done by Hol.

We're not cherry picking high ends, Kak is almost always portrayed way the **** slower than everyone else, besides Emperor shit, all his feats point to him being unironically hundreds of times slower.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

Holy shit, it's like you just ignored the fact Kak is a inconsistent mess and are blatantly cherry picking his high ends.



It's actually completely valid, Hierophant Green was right atop Mannish Boy moments away from landing a blow, and Chariot comes out and is just like "yeah nah".

Let's not even get into the fact that Dio, who is around the same speed as Chariot and Plat, is literally like a hundred ******* times faster than him. Dio straight up sees that shit in slow motion, if it was MFTL, it wouldn't be seen so slow that Dio can casually block hundreds of shots at once.

And let's not get into the fact that Emperor itself isn't actually fast, what's fast is the manual control done by Hol.

We're not cherry picking high ends, Kak is almost always portrayed way the **** slower than everyone else, besides Emperor shit, all his feats point to him being unironically hundreds of times slower.

cinematic time

ignoring whether kak is MFTL whered rel even come from

 

[Baken384]

ignoring whether kak is MFTL whered rel even come from

Downscaling

 

[Chariot190]

First off, that isn't what cinematic time is Wyatt.
Second off, Dio sees that shit in slow motion and effectively blocks thousands and thousands of shots casually, most of which are all surprise attacks. And we're supposed to "oh yeah about the same speed", **** no, that's so disingenuous to what actually happened that I'm disappointed in every single one of you.

By being slower than The Sun's beams but not by a drastic amount. Not really calculatable so just downscaled.

Which fyi, need I ******* remind everyone that HG is slower than The Sun's beams, something both Plat and Chariot dealt with fine LITERALLY a page later.

We really trying to scale HG to Chariot's speed, while HG is shown so much slower than him, that dude's like Dio effectively blitz him, his bloodlusted attacks can be intercepted easily by that same dude, literally SLOWER than light while the very same dudes he's meant to be "equal with" turn around one panel later and react to it. I could go on, HG ain't shit speedwise. He's blatantly not in the same ballpark, and Emperor has his own issues that have been found out due to some guides and shit making any direct speed scaling with it not gonna work.

 

[Damage3245]

and effectively blocks thousands and thousands of shots casually

I agree with you but let's not go too hyperbolic.

 

[StekFence]

Watching

 

[ZillertheBucko]

ok overall I'm just gonna say this: the current profiles for kak and hol horse do not at all reflect the majority of what you've said, I'm of the opinion that I'm not really cherry picking at all here
anyways

It's actually completely valid, Hierophant Green was right atop Mannish Boy moments away from landing a blow, and Chariot comes out and is just like "yeah nah".

Chariot is somewhat faster yeah, but that doesn't mean much here. We don't even see what chariot is doing while kakyoin is preparing hierophant, it quite literally just cuts to him being smacked. Obviously he had a much better timeframe to smack him due to the fact that he was like less than a foot away from him, and kak literally announces that he is about to kill the baby. Obviously if someone right next to me shouted they are going to kill that baby that's like on the other side of the room, I have a pretty good chance to whack them behind their head. There's no inconsistency here.

Let's not even get into the fact that Dio, who is around the same speed as Chariot and Plat, is literally like a hundred ******* times faster than him. Dio straight up sees that shit in slow motion, if it was MFTL, it wouldn't be seen so slow that Dio can casually block hundreds of shots at once.

this is the same dio that is literally reacting to giga enraged star platinum punch bro, who is basically on the peak of the scaling chain in jojo speed. It's not an anti feat for kakyoin to lose to something with speed like that as much as it is a feat for Dio reacting to it, since he literally reacts to enraged platinum punch . And even then Dio still got hit a bit by the assault of splashes. Not to mention that kakyoin literally claims in that scene to be able to sense the movements of the world, which would be weird thing to flex if he really was just not keeping up with him at all. Overall this is just an example of what puts the "at least" in Dio's at least mftl rating. There is no reason to assume that one of the verse's top tiers being that much faster is gonna bump kakyoin's speed down.

Which fyi, need I ******* remind everyone that HG is slower than The Sun's beams, something both Plat and Chariot dealt with fine LITERALLY a page later.

based on the anime scene, the way they "deal with it" is by making a mini cave, they never actually dodge the blasts or anything, so I'm gonna have to ask for some of those manga pages.
Regardless I think it's important to note the fact that kakyoin was completely streching out his range to it's absolute limits here which slowed him down, as well as the user being really ******* hot at the time, and the fact that he was in the middle of an emerald splash when it decided to start shooting at him. he himself said that the splash protected him, so this is more so a case of him being overpowered by the stand than anything.

We really trying to scale HG to Chariot's speed, while HG is shown so much slower than him, that dude's like Dio effectively blitz him, his bloodlusted attacks can be intercepted easily by that same dude, literally SLOWER than light while the very same dudes he's meant to be "equal with" turn around one panel later and react to it. I could go on, HG ain't shit speedwise. He's blatantly not in the same ballpark, and Emperor has his own issues that have been found out due to some guides and shit making any direct speed scaling with it not gonna work.

mftl characters on different ends can blitz eachother, dio is near the top of the chain
would you mind elaborating on that emperor thing a bit more? after all, if you look at the path the bullet takes, it is pretty clear judging by the angle of movement that it is moving at relatively the same speed sideways as it is moving forward, and the anime seems to support that the forward movement didn't slow down when he was doing that
which is something I'm curious about your input on actually, since I believe you've done jojo calcs in the past?

also yeah watch the hyperbole a bit, it's just a bit inconvenient to have to argue with that at times


Important afterthought
Polnareff quite literally takes off his armor before deciding to attack it, which is a light implication that the speed of the bullet scales to armor on chariot, which is probably something good to know considering the mftl feat is quite literally done with armor on

 

[ZillertheBucko]

as a side note: is it even possible to downscale mftl to rela, judging by the fact that a billion one shots on this site isn't enough proof to upscale an 8-C to 8-B

 

[Baken384]

as a side note: is it even possible to downscale mftl to rela, judging by the fact that a billion one shots on this site isn't enough proof to upscale an 8-C to 8-B

He downscales from The Sun lightspeed, not MFTL if i remember correctly

 

[ZillertheBucko]

He downscales from The Sun lightspeed, not MFTL if i remember correctly

ok that makes more sense, forget that point then

 

[Chariot190]

I agree with you but let's not go too hyperbolic.

Eh, may not be to far off. It'd be like a hundred or so if we count the individual pieces in the panels. Would easily hit a thousand in the anime given though due to it being a spray that lasts for numerous frames every time.

Either way. Wasn't being that hyperbolic, there was a LOT of shards.

yeah kakyoins profile is just really weird

small building level physically with 0 reasoning

kakyoin not scaling to heirophant in reaction speed for no reason

Also his profile is weird, the main issue is his ass is impossible to scale consistently, he's an actual mess. And the physical AP is a leftover from old scaling that's now gone, though that's not a hard issue to fix, he has a few feats we could do, likely won't get anything good though (Expecting 9-B to 9-A), which makes sense, he's been called time and time again as an extremely weak Stand that can't actually fight 1v1 as he'd almost always be outclassed due to not being a combat type or a power type but rather he's a Long Range Recon Type, except Splash which is stated to actually be quite powerful in contrast to the weak main body.

kakyoin not scaling to heirophant in reaction speed for no reason

Why would he? You don't scale to your Stand's speed ever unless shown, the default isn't that they scale, the default is they don't scale. Kak has no real feats implying he scales to HG's speed flat out, and thus, he doesn't.

and hierophant being rel with the reasoning being several instances of scaling to MFTL characters

One instance actually, only one, that in retrospect isn't actual scaling because Hirohiko Araki ******* weird and likes to complicate basic stats and scaling with funny haha meme quirks and caveats to things. But he does have a handful of instances where it's shown he very obviously doesn't scale.

ok overall I'm just gonna say this: the current profiles for kak and hol horse do not at all reflect the majority of what you've said, I'm of the opinion that I'm not really cherry picking at all here
anyways

Yes and? Nobody said they weren't a bit out of date, but given you're going on about how you looked through shit, you should know this anyhow.

Chariot is somewhat faster yeah, but that doesn't mean much here.

He's a **** ton faster lad, he scales to Dio, who scales hilariously above HG, this shuts down your scaling as it is. Also him being faster at all makes your scaling to him suspect to begin with.

We don't even see what chariot is doing while kakyoin is preparing hierophant, it quite literally just cuts to him being smacked.

Yeah, exactly, we don't see him, and then next panel HG's on his ass. Despite Kak having a huge head start. And it doesn't "cut" to him being smacked, that's simply the order of events, Chariot comes out, ko's Kak while HG is mid attack, despite HG being literally like a foot away from Mannish Boy. HG leapt toward the kid, tried to kill him, Chariot can come out, and knock Kak the **** out. Casually mind you, while Kak himself is a bit bloodlusted and desperate.

Obviously he had a much better timeframe to smack him due to the fact that he was like less than a foot away from him, and kak literally announces that he is about to kill the baby.

He actually had next to no time dude, Pol is shocked, he doesn't actively make an attempt to stop him till Kak is right there about to land teh killing blow, then Pol is like "yeah no **** that".

Obviously if someone right next to me shouted they are going to kill that baby that's like on the other side of the room, I have a pretty good chance to whack them behind their head. There's no inconsistency here.

Yeah, now try stopping them when their magic ghost is like a foot away from the target while you're even further away from them.
And what's this matter, you're acting like Chariot came out and prepped his attack while HG was still far away, he wasn't, Pol, with zero effort, just knocks HG on his ass the moment they enter range.

this is the same dio that is literally reacting to giga enraged star platinum punch bro, who is basically on the peak of the scaling chain in jojo speed.

First off, Dio barely reacts to Star Platinum, ****, he even gets interrupted and fails to properly stop time and flee. Dio can react to Star Platinum, but it ain't easy for him, meanwhile with HG it's done with zero effort. And the other Dio is ******* HIGH DIO, who's blatantly and flat out beyond his base. And an even more pissed off Plat actually blitzes him.

It's not an anti feat for kakyoin to lose to something with speed like that as much as it is a feat for Dio reacting to it, since he literally reacts to enraged platinum punch .

Except it is? Damn dude in case you forgot, we're talking about Pre-High Dio who's not even trying and is doing this shit with a flick of his fingers with a smile on his face. Seeing that show in slow motion at that. While with Plat Dio needs to actually be on his A-Game even at base, and the more pissed Plat gets, the more Dio straight up struggles before eventually getting his face smashed in.
See the issue? Dio needs to try for Plat. With HG it's not even worth his effort.

And even then Dio still got hit a bit by the assault of splashes.

No he didn't? He blocked every single one, he was hit by ONE stray shard that he missed because he was getting overwhelmed and one got through, it took dozens if not hundreds of shards at the same time for Dio's speed to fail to block one.
The other times Dio literally sat there on purpose and avoided them without even moving to flex.
And if you mean movement, ignoring the fact movement=/=combat, Dio actually DOES move out of the way of the first few splashes, but eventually can't anymore because everytime he moved he set off another and was then forced to block them, which he does, extremely well, to the point it's pretty pathetic on Kak's end comparatively, that even having Dio trapped, danmaku'ing his ass, restricting Dio's movement and more, that he was lucky to even land one hit on him.

Not to mention that kakyoin literally claims in that scene to be able to sense the movements of the world, which would be weird thing to flex if he really was just not keeping up with him at all.

He doesn't say that, he said he couldn't sense even a strand get broke if you mean when he's talking to himself while literally dying trying to figure out what happened. And that he should've been able to at least sense something, but he doesn't and is baffled that not just a few strands got broke, but the whole web at the exact same time. Because time stop sure, but his line here says **** all in regards to scaling, a rel dude could sense a MFTL dude from 20m away fyi when any movement that dude makes is automatically sent to the former, it'd be extremely tough, but 20m is a hefty distance, but it's possible, especially when the whole arc up to this point makes it very, very, clear HG doesn't scale to The World in speed at all, like come the **** on dude, you're joking right? "Let's scale HG to TW because of a line where he doesn't even say that. Ignore the fact we just spent half a volume of him being blitzed out the ass by Dio who wasn't even bothering to time stop against him".

Overall this is just an example of what puts the "at least" in Dio's at least mftl rating. There is no reason to assume that one of the verse's top tiers being that much faster is gonna bump kakyoin's speed down.

As the person who put the at least in Dio's rating, I can tell you that ain't why dude.
It kinda is when this "top tier" is only that, a top tier, not a God Tier, and someone who has to actually try to keep up with the other fast dudes, but doesn't even think of Kak as big enough of a threat to even use time stop on to avoid his attacks, opting to straight up juse use his normal speed to effortlessly block and deflect. Which is a pretty huge red flag when Kak's other feats are failing to react to light that literally everyone else besides him managed to do (capping his ass at Rel fyi), being so much slower than a casual Dio that it isn't even funny, being demonstrably shown slower than Chariot and Plat on multiple occasions and so on.

based on the anime scene, the way they "deal with it" is by making a mini cave, they never actually dodge the blasts or anything, so I'm gonna have to ask for some of those manga pages.

Damn, was that so hard? Chariot deflects 4 beams from The Sun at the same time, while HG failed to barely get off the Emerald Splash, funny how that works?
You're ******* joking right? Even in the anime Chariot proceeds to deflect a **** ton of beams from it while Plat makes the cave, in both anime and manga, so what the hell are you talking about?

Regardless I think it's important to note the fact that kakyoin was completely streching out his range to it's absolute limits here which slowed him down,

No it doesn't, one of HG's MAIN advantages is that he DOESN'T slow down while he stretches, he isn't a short range power type, he's a long range recon, he can go to the end of his range and still have the same speed and power, this is literally one of the main benefits to having HG as a Stand, the fact you think it works the opposite is baffling.

as well as the user being really ******* hot at the time, and the fact that he was in the middle of an emerald splash when it decided to start shooting at him. he himself said that the splash protected him, so this is more so a case of him being overpowered by the stand than anything.

It being hot is such a bad excuse I'm not even gonna humor it, especially when Pol and Jotaro react to them and they're just as hot. Also false, he wasn't in the middle of the splash when it attacked, Pol and Jotaro actually warn Kak of the beams ahead of time which opts HG to use ES, and fails, the splash barely makes it a foot or two before the beams **** him over, you realize that's bad right? Really bad? The fact even with warning from the two other dudes about lightspeed attacks coming, Kak barely manages to save his own ass. And yeah, the splash protected him, because the beams showed up and would've killed him if the splash wasnt right in front of him. You're still ignoring what actually happened and simplifying the **** outta it to try and excuse a blatant anti-feat as well as anti-scaling given he was the only one in the group who had any real issue with it.

mftl characters on different ends can blitz eachother, dio is near the top of the chain

He's actually not, he's on the lower end, he straight up struggles with pissed Platinum. And even if Dio was 999x, the absolute highest he could be and still be MFTL, and HG was 100x, the lowest he could be, such a difference wouldn't let Dio do what he did, hell, I could calc it to prove my point, it'd be calc stacking sure and unusable, but it'd prove my point of Dio being so ******* beyond HG it's not even funny.

would you mind elaborating on that emperor thing a bit more? after all, if you look at the path the bullet takes, it is pretty clear judging by the angle of movement that it is moving at relatively the same speed sideways as it is moving forward, and the anime seems to support that the forward movement didn't slow down when he was doing that

And the anime is wrong in this case, it's why we only use it when it aligns with canon info and doesn't deviate, Araki says Emperor's speed actually isn't that fast, but do to Hol himself being fast, he can make turns and pivots at ludicrous speeds, that's a Hol thing, not Emperor thing, and Hol is faster than Pol flat out stated and even Chariot itself, Hol is cracked as **** speedwise for some reason, he's faster than his own Stand, he's like cowboy Rohan.

also yeah watch the hyperbole a bit, it's just a bit inconvenient to have to argue with that at times

Wasn't even hyperbole, I counted a fuckton of shots in the manga (before stopping), and in the anime I got up to like 300 shots before I stopped counting, there was indeed thousands of shots used against Dio (anime at least, probably a hundred or two in the manga), given the anime I stopped way before the end of the arc.


Like no for real, let's look at HG's feats.

MFTL scaling.

• Intercepted Emperor with Emerald Splash (Not a real feat given how Araki explains how that Stand's speed in particular works, which is kinda weird, but blame him, not me).
• Tagged early Platinum (Who wasn't even really tagged, he knew the attack was coming and noticed it, he just didn't do anything about it. He turns around and casually deflects it like a page later).

Anti MFTL Scaling.

• Failed to properly react to lightspeed attacks, even though his allies could and even warned him of them.
• Is so much slower than even base Dio that any scaling putting them together or even close is completely disingenuous.
• Equal in speed to Hermit Purple (Which was blitzed by The World as well fyi so a Stand that's consistently made its equal in speed is shown way slower too).
• Demonstrated to be slower than Chariot, not only in The Sun arc where Chariot immediately reacts and deflects things HG failed to properly avoid, but in Death 13, where Chariot could stop a bloodlust HG's attack casually and reluctantly.
• Chariot actually nearly intercepts an attack from Dio, the same Dio who is above HG by a **** ton.
• Star Platinum has shown the ability to casually deflect the Emerald Splash too.

The thing is, HG doesn't have any real scaling or feats, you're under the impression he's MFTL and he just has some one off anti-feats, in reality, those anti-feats are his only feats.

 

[Chariot190]

We're not making HG MFTL, you're lucky he's even in Rel. He has zero feats on the caliber of MFTL or even FTL and the feats he does have don't actually work or are extremely flimsy and basically just grasping at things that probably don't exist.

His anti feats and anti scaling far, far outweigh his "good" feats, you'd need like half a dozen of straight up blatant direct scaling before it'd become even a "likely" or "possibly" listing.