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Hellsing AP Calc Addition

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Random-Helper323

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Just applying this calc blog, which is already accepted. The size of the fire is already on the verse page, and now the burned down 120,000 strong soul army is accepted. The low-end cremation measurement was the one accepted, even if the blog doesn't specify that.

This seemingly scales to Alucard because the fire started inside Alucard's body and spread from there. It also comes from Monster Anderson directly, and the fire even goes out when he is pushed away.

This Hellsing AP issue is currently up in the air due to previous calculations being reexamined and rejected, so this feat is being brought up to give the verse somewhere to go.




Result:

It would maintain the high tiers' AP at 7-C, Town level. This is already where the cast stands, but with the existing calculation now rejected the verse has no tier to go to.

It would apply to Alucard, Monster Anderson, True Vampire Seras, the Captain, and Vampire Walter.




Agree: 1 (DarkDragonMedeus)

Disagree:
 
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I agree, also the values gotten in that calc is lower than the one in the Blood river Calc, so how do we add this to the profile once we get enough staff votes?
 
I agree
By the way, will this guy get 7-C too? I'm not sure about this because he come from anime that doesn't follow the same storyline as manga
 
I agree, also the values gotten in that calc is lower than the one in the Blood river Calc, so how do we add this to the profile once we get enough staff votes?
Any linked values can be changed, otherwise it's a pretty small revision.
 
By the way, will this guy get 7-C too? I'm not sure about this because he come from anime that has different story as the manga
Probably not, since he's from a series where the event never happened. We're focusing on the canon series for this CRT.
 
Will Alucard's new tier look something like this?
7-C, 7-C with telekinesis | Likely 7-C, 7-C with telekinesis?

The tk calc im referring to is this one which is already in Alucard's profile (im assuming its accepted because why is it in the profile???) or should this be discussed in a separate CRT
 
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Will Alucard's new tier look something like this?
7-C, 7-B with telekinesis | Likely 7-C, 7-B with telekinesis?

The 7-B calc im referring to is this one which is already in Alucard's profile (im assuming its accepted?) or should this be discussed in a separate CRT
isnt the GPE version more accepted than the KE version though?

I think it should be discussed in another CRT unless this CRT is edited to include that
 
isnt the GPE version more accepted than the KE version though?
Why do you think that?
I think it should be discussed in another CRT unless this CRT is edited to include that
well OP said "but with the existing calculation now rejected the verse has no tier to go to" yet we still have the london blood calc thats linked to Alucard's profile

but yeah its @Random-Helper323 decision to discuss that calc here or not
 
Why do you think that?

well OP said "but with the existing calculation now rejected the verse has no tier to go to" yet we still have the london blood calc thats linked to Alucard's profile

but yeah its @Random-Helper323 decision to discuss that calc here or not
Its mainly because Im seeing the comments mostly talk about the GPE version but if the KE version is usable then I can see 7-B through Telekinesis part
 
Why do you think that?

well OP said "but with the existing calculation now rejected the verse has no tier to go to" yet we still have the london blood calc thats linked to Alucard's profile

but yeah its @Random-Helper323 decision to discuss that calc here or not
Its mainly because Im seeing the comments mostly talk about the GPE version but if the KE version is usable then I can see 7-B through Telekinesis part
We're focusing on the fire calculation here. The blood calculation is rejected, I'm given to understand. It's just that the profiles haven't been changed because, as said in the OP, the verse currently has no calculation/tier to go to.
 
This is fine if its just applying an accepted calc
 
Link the full feat?
It might be fine and I could be misremembering, but there might be a hefty caveat.
 
I'll just say and be done with it, be careful and make sure it's instant all in one burst.
If the fire had to "spread" at all, it's gonna tank the shit out of the actual feat.

Imagine if you will, you lit a leaf on fire and it ended up burning down a forest, your lighter ain't 7-C, fire just happens to spread, heat warms things up causing what's around it to heat up too.
And in the case of Alucard, it was a continuous process (as in, his body just kept shooting out fire over the course of a prolonged timeframe), you'd obviously have to divide by that as well.
Another example, if you have a flamethrower and torch a log for 30 seconds, yeah it packs a bunch of energy, and yeah it ashed it, but it was still a steady stream of said flame for a total of 30 seconds, how much total energy it expended 30 seconds in and the energy it's accumulated, is not the same as an instant's worth, which is what would be listed as the AP value, otherwise it'd just be ED at best.

Which is a bit of the problem here, fire seeps from his body, but not all at once, it seeps and keeps on going over a length of time, and while it did light that town ablaze, the current calc treats it like everything was lit instantly in under a second, when really, a bunch of that fire is from natural spreading of it. It's basically doing the equivalent of a (short) over time feat, on top of a accumulated feat. It's def not tier 7, it might be decent still but it needs to be reworked.

For a more wiki-based example, imagine a Charizard melts a mountain, and it does so by using flamethrower at a constant rate for about a minute total.
Sure the energy is ultimately 7-A or something, but how much energy an instant of flamethrower packs, is not the same amount of energy required to have melted that mountain, we'd list the energy per second value as AP, not the overtime/spreading of heat value.
 
In the OVA it's shown to have near instantly engulfed all of Alucard's familiars, and there are implications of a sustenance/stabilization scaling for Anderson mostly due to it continuing to burn long after spreading and only stopping after his bayonett that impaled Alucard broke
 
In the OVA it's shown to have near instantly engulfed all of Alucard's familiars, and there are implications of a sustenance/stabilization scaling for Anderson mostly due to it continuing to burn long after spreading and only stopping after his bayonett that impaled Alucard broke
The OVA straight up cuts panels, it isn't exactly reliable here.
Also, you just gave reason why it wouldn't scale, "sustenance/stabilization" isn't a thing, it's a fire, fires tend to continue to burn long after the source of the flames stop.
 
The OVA straight up cuts panels, it isn't exactly reliable here.
Also, you just gave reason why it wouldn't scale, "sustenance/stabilization" isn't a thing, it's a fire, fires tend to continue to burn long after the source of the flames stop.
In the Manga it's a timeframe of a single page before his entire army is engulfed in flames. So it being portrayed as a near instant feat between both original and adaptation is consistent

The fire continuing to burn proves it burns like a normal flame. Which makes it instantly dissipating (not even a slow burn out, just instant poof gone), imply to be a sustenance feat by Anderson and his bayonets
 
This scales to Alucard because the fire started inside Alucard's body and spread from there, and he was in his red coat form. He was in the process of burning, but he was burning slowly.
Unless the fire is an explosion (it isn't; if the flames are spreading instead of being a collective spontaneous combustion, they are selectively traveling through the familiars), I don't see why this scales to Alucard's physical statistics, as he would be withstanding a small amount of the energy.

0009-012.png


Burning slower works as an argument for Fire Resistance though.
 
In the Manga it's a timeframe of a single page before his entire army is engulfed in flames. So it being portrayed as a near instant feat between both original and adaptation is consistent
A single page can be however long it wants to be, it could be an attosecond or a whole year, or anything else. The fact it's only one page means nothing by itself.
Completely ignoring "Fire Spreading" SFX, reactions to the fire, things that wouldn't have superhuman speed mind you. If the fire spread across a town in less than a second, nobody, especially not things without inhuman reactions, would react to it.


And the OVA isn't even instant if that's where we want to get our timeframe, it takes over 8 seconds, and straight up shows it spreading slowly to start, then simply cuts to the full fire (Which is exponentially less than than what you're getting from the manga btw, you treated it as a cylinder when it's objectively not in both the manga and OVA).
The fire continuing to burn proves it burns like a normal flame. Which makes it instantly dissipating (not even a slow burn out, just instant poof gone), imply to be a sustenance feat by Anderson and his bayonets
Not how this works. It can be supernatural, it can vanish instantly, but you don't get to say it's being sustained and given so and so much energy per second because of it. You need a hard statement for that type of stuff, honestly? I'm pretty sure the feat only even happens because the attack ignites unholy beings like Alucard, and then it just transferred to his soul stock, but that's besides the point.

Actually having just watched the OVA's episodes, if we're using that as the reference for times and context, why are you ignoring the fact it only lit the bodies on fire and the rest was just natural spreading?
Any other fire simply spread off them like to the building, because they're on fire, not due to Anderson.
Also why ignore the fact it took minutes of sustained fire to actually burn the bodies? The cremation wasn't quick, it's actually quite slow.
Why ignore how the fire isn't even remotely as all encompassing as the calc treats it as? Actually let's talk about that.

Your calc assumes it instantly heated up a cylinder of air too mind you, as in, a big circle that is uniform.
That's straight up wrong, if that was the case, the fire would extend to the foreground too, past the buildings even, by almost 200m.
That is not what happens.
You're taking a stream of fire that lit a street on fire between buildings, taking the horizontal length of that fire, and extending omnidirectionally to create a circle, when what you should be doing, is treating it like a rectangle, a thin yet long strip of air that got heated up that extended down the street, which you can scale easily off the building the fire is literally touching.
Both the manga and OVA show this too, it extends down between the buildings, ie the street, not this huge AOE nuke.

I'm not gonna comment on the fact that's generous in and of itself either, given Integra is legit on that same street down the block and what's on fire, as in the flames we'd be seeing on that panel you're scaling, is just the top of that building that got lit ablaze due o the vines, the fire isn't filling the street but just the bodies and some stuff at the side so it might even be less.

Either way, you need to fix that, it isn't a cylinder + it happens over time (at minimum 8 seconds to spread, actual minutes to burn most of the bodies), so you need to divide it even then.
 
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.Timeframe
Manga shows a single page, OVA shows seconds, timeframe is short

You're right: no familiars reacted to the flames until they were already engulfed by them
.Sustenence
I said implied, not that it's correct or objective
.Cremation
Cremation was entirely an afterthought.

I wasn't snickering behind closed doors rubbing my hands together, muttering "this'll show them! The VS Battles Wiki staff!" like a pencil-mustached Hanna-Barbera machiavillain
.fire volume
human surface area = 1.75 sq meters
minimum flame area = 120,000 humans = 210,000 sq m
height = 99.013 meters
volume = 20792730 m3
1.225 kg density of air = 25471094.25 kg

Energy = 27838887171480 joules

timeframe is 21149 seconds to 21151 seconds from Alucard lit to army engulfed. 2 seconds = ~ 3kiloton/second
 
Manga shows a single page, OVA shows seconds, timeframe is short
I don't care how short it is, it isn't instant, and if it isn't instant, you need to factor that in.
Manga shows visible reactions as the flames pour out. If you use the OVA, it's even worse, the fire spreads extremely slowly as we watch the flames move down the street.
I said implied, not that it's correct or objective
If it isn't correct don't argue it?
Cremation was entirely an afterthought.
It's the very premise of your upgrade, tackle it properly.
I wasn't snickering behind closed doors rubbing my hands together, muttering "this'll show them! The VS Battles Wiki staff!" like a pencil-mustached Hanna-Barbera machiavillain
My dude what are you yapping about? Nobody said that. But you still need to calc it properly.
human surface area = 1.75 sq meters
minimum flame area = 120,000 humans = 210,000 sq m
height = 99.013 meters
volume = 20792730 m3
1.225 kg density of air = 25471094.25 kg

Energy = 27838887171480 joules

timeframe is 21149 seconds to 21151 seconds from Alucard lit to army engulfed. 2 seconds = ~ 3kiloton/second
This is straight up wrong, from the frame the flames start coming out, to the frame of the shot of the town, which is the equivalent of what you're trying to calc, the shot you get your 99m height from, is 194 frames.
Hellsing is 24fps, that is quite literally 8.08 seconds.

Even if you stop early, even if you assume the final street shot is when ALL the bodies finished catching fire, that's still 6.3 seconds the instant the fire hits the final dude at the back of the line.
But all the same, this is still wrong, you wanna calc the bodies catching fire? Ok, you might be onto something actually, that could be a decent way to go about it.
But you're now calcing it as if each body has 99m tall flames that extend outward from every -^2 of them. The bodies don't have 99m tall flames on them, I don't need to explain this, you can see as much, it's like, maybe a few feet tall at most?
Yet you're calcing it as if EVERY BODY has a flame that extends outward for 99m from EVERY surface of their body, whether that's the top of their head, the bottom of their feet (obviously the flames don't extend into the ground), or even their dick or anything inbetween, needless to say this is straight up not the case.
You're conflating the bodies being on fire, with the itty bitty top of the buildings that are on fire, and making, effectively every single body, a 100m wide fireball.

So yeah nah my dude, that method is a potentially good idea (assuming they don't just catch fire because they're linked to Alucard, which I'm 80% sure is the case), but the way you went about it still needs work and the timeframe wrong still.
 
Gotta say I agree with chariot here, there are fixes that need to be made
 
I don't have a problem with the feat conceptually, but if there's serious objections to the calc itself those should definitely be addressed before I give any official approval.
 
Alright Imma be honest with you, I'm only going to talk about the math stuff now

Cremation is just an implicit end result of the feat, and is a bit more difficult to calculate since it takes place over two episodes. However, if we were to exclude flashbacks, episode openings/endings, we can vaguely find a timeframe of the feat.

Alucard catches fire at 21149 seconds, episode ends at 21176. After episode opening the battle is at 21250, leave the battle to enter flashback at 21529. We leave the flashback and Alucard awakens at 21706, then the flames end and they fight at 21849. Since there are no remaining corpses, or even blood of Alucard's army, this is an estimate of ~728 seconds (around 12 minutes)

Low end cremation was accepted so 29712086400*1000/728 = 40813305494.5 joules/second
9.75 tons/second
You could round up to 15 minutes and that'd give us 7.9 tons/second

All of the flames within a 259.692 meter length reached 99.013 meters as used in the original calc blog. However to take into account the height decreasing over greater area, we can assume conical volume

Conical mass = 1/3rd cylinder volume = 25471094.25/3 = 8490364.75 kg
Conical flame yield = 9279629057160 joules

9279629057160/8 seconds = 1.1599536e+12 joules/second
277 tons/second
 
Alternatively just assuming literally everything otuside the 259.692 meter length instantly drops down to just 1.71m height (human height to engulf a human)

259.692 meter length = 52967.201 sq m circle area
52967.201/210,000 = only 0.2522x of area is at 99.013 meter height.
1-0.2522 = 0.7478x at human height (1.71 m)

Air density is 1.225 kgm3
52967.201/210,000x1.225+0.7478x210,000x1.225 = 192371.859 kg

Yield = 210254747013 joules

210254747013/8 = 26281843376.6 joules/second
6.28 ton/second


More convoluted but eh
 
Alright Imma be honest with you, I'm only going to talk about the math stuff now

Cremation is just an implicit end result of the feat, and is a bit more difficult to calculate since it takes place over two episodes. However, if we were to exclude flashbacks, episode openings/endings, we can vaguely find a timeframe of the feat.

Alucard catches fire at 21149 seconds, episode ends at 21176.
I don't think I need to say this, given I already did, but that video is skewed.
Use the actual raw footage, go download that shit off nyaa idk, that video is skewing your result by about 1/3rd due to the differing frame rate.

Excluding flashbacks and all that I would say is fine tho.
After episode opening the battle is at 21250, leave the battle to enter flashback at 21529. We leave the flashback and Alucard awakens at 21706, then the flames end and they fight at 21849. Since there are no remaining corpses, or even blood of Alucard's army, this is an estimate of ~728 seconds (around 12 minutes)

Low end cremation was accepted so 29712086400*1000/728 = 40813305494.5 joules/second
9.75 tons/second

You could round up to 15 minutes and that'd give us 7.9 tons/second

Well no, that's so long that simply dividing it doesn't matter anymore, you need to take into account things like heat conductivity, heat transfer, surface area and exposure to the fire, etc (Which we do in fact do, for better or for worse, it actually buffs feats that happen quickly, like Avdol instantly melting rock, Link heating up an island in seconds, or Superman instant vaporizing large chunks of steel, boosts the temp of the things in question by quite a bit past just the minimum boiling/melting point once you factor in the actual science behind doing it quickly over a certain area).
Hell at that point it isn't even a feat anymore, it'd be like calling irl crematoriums 9-A because they can burn a body over the course of 2-4h. The heat denatures the proteins, breaking them down, the longer they're on fire, the less difficult it becomes, yadda yadda. It's no longer divide by timeframe, because the ease at which it happens increases exponentially.
All of the flames within a 259.692 meter length reached 99.013 meters as used in the original calc blog.
Ok but that literally didn't happen.
You're taking a few flames at the edge of the building (This isn't even guesswork, we get a shot of the street next chapter and just the tops on fire, the OVA makes it even clearer it's just a few patches of flame), and saying EVERY FLAME reached that high and fills up the entire 3D space of air.
It didn't, based on the fact we see down the street like 20 times in the following chapter, even as it shows bodies burning alive so we know for a fact the flames off them don't extend that high, as the flames extend like, maybe 1-2ft above them?
It just isn't true, it's wrong.

And as mentioned last post, why are you scaling it that way anyway? You can literally just scale off the building itself that fire is actively touching for a more accurate value? Like I understand using angsizing to get the distance from Point A to the POV. But only if it was actually a giant cylinder, it isn't.
However to take into account the height decreasing over greater area, we can assume conical volume
No.
It isn't a cone. It isn't a cylinder. It's none of that. In fact, if the shape you use even remotely resembles a circle's footprint, throw it out because it isn't the case.

It's just a fire that passed down a street. It'd be rectangular at best, at worst, it isn't even that and it's just individual bodies and the edge of buildings that got lit on fire as collateral.
Conical mass = 1/3rd cylinder volume = 25471094.25/3 = 8490364.75 kg
Conical flame yield = 9279629057160 joules

9279629057160/8 seconds = 1.1599536e+12 joules/second
277 tons/second
As before, that too is wrong, for the exact same reasons as outlined before.
There isn't a huge cone of fire, which again, going by that logic, the flames would extend into the foreground past the buildings, which they don't.
It is just that street, we see that to be the case in following shots, there's a bit of fire on the buildings, but that's because others hit just caught fire naturally, and it most certainly isn't this huge super heated volume of air, it's just small fires atop the buildings or on the sides of them in blotches, we know this because we see it.
And then there's the issue of, it isn't even uniformly on fire, there's so much empty space between the flames that maybe 1% of the volume you'd be getting is actually heated to that extent.
 
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Use the actual raw footage, go download that shit off nyaa idk, that video is skewing your result by about 1/3rd due to the differing frame rate.
Yeah but cremation result doesn't really matter as you said, even with the added 15 minute round up timeframe
And as mentioned last post, why are you scaling it that way anyway? You can literally just scale off the building itself that fire is actively touching for a more accurate value? Like I understand using angsizing to get the distance from Point A to the POV. But only if it was actually a giant cylinder, it isn't.
I couldn't find the height of the National Gallery, but I recognized the statue of King Charles and Trafalgar Square so I used angsizing

But in hindsight I realize I could just use the left most pillars as reference instead (~4.7 meter gap). Using that instead for scaling

Flame height = 228 px / 20 px * 4.7 = 53.58 m
Flame length = 598 px = 140.53 m

Orange street is the road right behind the National Gallery, and is 7.61 to 11.29 m wide

National Gallery flame area = 140.53*(7.61+11.29)/2= 1328.0085 sq m
Total army area = 210,000 sq m - 1328.0085= 208671.9915 sq m everywhere else

Flames at the national gallery are 53.58 m tall, assuming 1.71 minimum everywhere else
Total mass = (1328.0085*53.58+208671.9915*1.71)*1.225 = 524280.1561 kg

Heat energy = 573017239411 joules / 8 = 71627154926.4 joule/second
17.12 tons/second
 
Yeah but cremation result doesn't really matter as you said, even with the added 15 minute round up timeframe
It effects both times tho? Like if you want to blog this, you're gonna have to add all this stuff to the blog properly.
I couldn't find the height of the National Gallery, but I recognized the statue of King Charles and Trafalgar Square so I used angsizing

But in hindsight I realize I could just use the left most pillars as reference instead (~4.7 meter gap). Using that instead for scaling

Flame height = 228 px / 20 px * 4.7 = 53.58 m
Flame length = 598 px = 140.53 m

Orange street is the road right behind the National Gallery, and is 7.61 to 11.29 m wide

National Gallery flame area = 140.53*(7.61+11.29)/2= 1328.0085 sq m
Total army area = 210,000 sq m - 1328.0085= 208671.9915 sq m everywhere else

Flames at the national gallery are 53.58 m tall, assuming 1.71 minimum everywhere else
Total mass = (1328.0085*53.58+208671.9915*1.71)*1.225 = 524280.1561 kg

Heat energy = 573017239411 joules / 8 = 71627154926.4 joule/second
17.12 tons/second
You're still falling into the exact same trap each and every time.

I'm just going to assume that the location and street width and stuff is accurate, I'll trust you on that.

You're assuming the fire extends and fills the whole street and extends 50m up at every point, basically creating a 3D dimensional space that is over 1000 degrees.
As was the case before and is still the case even now, that isn't actually what happens. You're treating it like it's a giant 3D volume of nothing but super heated air and fire, but it isn't. We see the street multiple times as it's happening, it isn't completely engulfed, there's enough empty space for victoria to stroll in untouched, Integra is on that exact same street and isn't being cooked alive, there's giant empty spaces where the fire isn' there (literally over 99% of the air space).
You're conflating the buildings catching fire, seeing the top of the fires from those buildings, and then assuming it's just some sort of solid brick of flame, it isn't.
How you keep trying to calc the feat, and what actually happens, aren't the same.

And if I'm reading that right, you're taking the surface area of the bodies, and multiplying it by their height right? While it's true the fire covers them completely, and they're 1.71m~, what you're doing by taking the area and multiplying by their height, is essentially making it so every body has fire extending off them at every point for nearly 2m off their skin, which isn't the case, it's only like a foot or so per body, but the way you have it, each body is it's own 4m wide fireball basically, and not even all over them either, like obviously the flames don't extend off the soles of their feet right?

also reading the manga, I'm not even sure they were all cremated either, we see bodies still in the process of being caught on fire 2 chapters later. So right there all 120 bodies being lit ablaze within those 8 seconds is objectively wrong.
 
I'm just going to assume that the location and street width and stuff is accurate, I'll trust you on that.
Most of that stuff is just Google Maps + the built in measure distance feature, so yeah

The flames vary between less than to more than several feet (OVA shows similarly large engulfing). with that in mind, using 21.4 cm for average head height
Minimum flame extension = 21 px / 19 px * .214 = 0.2365 m
Larger flame extension = 45 px / 12 px * .214 = .8025 m
Average flame extension = (.8025+.2365)/2 = 0.5195 m

Mass: 210,000*.5195*1.225 = 133641.375 kg
Heat change energy = 146064677220 joules

Since we're no longer taking into account the entire streets burning down, we'll only count Alucard's army being burned. Imgur link of my screen recording. Watching frame by frame Alucard burst into flames at 2.49 seconds, and the entire army is shown to catch fire at 9.39 seconds, taking roughly 6.9 seconds

Per second ap = 146064677220/6.9 = 21168793800 joules/second (5.06 tons/second)
 
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