Heartless/Nobody Downgrades

[The_real_cal_howard]

Aight so I peeped the physiology thread and I have a ton of problems with it.

I'll go in order.

>Come back in seconds due to type 8.

Outright not true. Source? Every fight involving heartless ever. Sora, Donald, Goofy, etc. put them down left and right and they don't come back automatically. Take the Hercules arena. The arenas don't have the creatures respawning every so often. And there's also the case of Green Requiems. Heartless that heal other Heartless. If Heartless can regenerate infinitely instantaneously, there's no reason for them to be healed. Finally, there's several Heartless bosses that are put down for good, and Sora doesn't necessarily have to deal the final blow. Even when Aqua fights them in their homeworld, they aren't instantaneously back after she nukes them. At the absolute best, they come back over time.

>Death manipulation

Technically right, but we normally reserve this for killing people specifically. Speaking of which, the instance where that random man vanishes in Traverse Town and a Heartless appears to collect the remaining heart seems to be an isolated incident. This never happens when any other character comes near a Heartless again. Zero.

>Non-corporeality

There are Heartless made out of gosh darned armor. They're not non-corporeal. True nature may be darkness but their physical forms are clearly physical. Shown when the cast of the games can hit them easily, but when a Shadow, which is fodder, phases into the ground, it's impossible to touch them. Apparently Sora can touch NONEXISTENTS, but he can't touch something once it's in the ground.

>Resistance to EE, mind manipulation, and transmutation

One at a time. EE, nothing supports them being able to EE in a single hit, if at all without stealing the Hearts and it happening as a result of that, so that's bunk. Especially given they easily die to Warp, an EE ability. Mind manipulation for lacking a body/soul is dumb and we've never treated it that way. Transmutation logic, see above with regen. Not to mention by that logic, every character with a godly regen should have transmutation resistance.

Most of this is Heartless stuff, but it goes doubly so with the Nobody's nonexistent physiology. The Organization 13, the posterboys of Nobodies in the verse, have clear showings of tangibility and being existent. From what I recall, having a Nobody is that your body persists after becoming a Heartless. So unless you're telling me that bodies are nonexistent, at the very least the Organization 13 should lose the standard NEP. Immortality type 5 is dumb too given that many many of them die. Marluxia for example dies in Chain of Memories and has to be created.

Most of these inconsistencies are explained away by the supporters of the verse by saying "Oh, Sora and co. have powers that allow them to negate all this stuff!" which again, doesn't work when one, they can kill them with magic, which doesn't involve being touched with the Keyblade, two, the Heartless can be healed so it clearly doesn't negate too much, and three, gosh darned Tarzan can kill them.

 

[Eficiente]

Not knowledgeable on the verse but worried about its massive wank and lack of logic & common sense. From that position, I support all of this as it all looks correct.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I'm not heavily involved with Kingdom Hearts or anything like that, but I do remember two things specifically.

I think the Non-Corporeality also comes from the fact that Sora can't harm any of the Heartless with just a sword early game. He needed a Keyblade to be able to do that.

Killing people passively isn't a requirement for Death Manipulation at all. If this is the case, any Harry Potter character needs it removed from their profiles because Avada Kedavra certainly isn't passive nor should any Pokemon that has it from Destiny Bond be able to retain it. It would be Death Manipulation like you said, it just wouldn't be really potent is all.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He can't kill em but he can certainly smack them around. He does that both at the beginning of the game and when Riku steals his keyblade. Hell, Beast is capable of putting them down, and he doesn't have a Keyblade.

EDIT: I noticed he can't touch them without the Keyblade in the beginning of the game. Not even smack them around. But when he loses it in Hollow Bastion, he can.

I didn't say that. I said that killing passively isn't consistent for Heartless (see every instance after the one that got put on the profile) and that killing people in general is normally a requirement for DM. They just kill plants. Nothing with any degree of sentience. That'd be like...plant manipulation.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Death manipulation for killing plants?

 

[Eficiente]

Limited Death Manip & Plant Manipulation

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'd like to see some arguments from the supporters, but a lot of this does sound sketchy

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Btw, this would probably nuke the conceptual destruction the cast has (barring Xehanort). Literally nothing in the series gets conceptually destroyed in a single hit, if at all. Sora outright seppukus himself and still has his heart, Ventus's still exists, frees Kairi's, and exists as a Shadow that regains his body. And the Organization XIII wouldn't be able to come back if they were conceptually deleted by Sora and co., but they do.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ploz. So, it turns out I did say passively, but that was purely on accident. I meant to say specifically, not passively. Idek how I made that mistake lol.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We all make slips of the tongue, it's all good

 

[TheSpeedster96]

This post is blatantly ignoring previous threads and profiles that literally explain everything you mentioned.

"Outright not true. Source? Every fight involving heartless ever. Sora, Donald, Goofy, etc. put them down left and right and they don't come back automatically. Take the Hercules arena. The arenas don't have the creatures respawning every so often. And there's also the case of Green Requiems. Heartless that heal other Heartless. If Heartless can regenerate infinitely instantaneously, there's no reason for them to be healed. Finally, there's several Heartless bosses that are put down for good, and Sora doesn't necessarily have to deal the final blow. Even when Aqua fights them in their homeworld, they aren't instantaneously back after she nukes them. At the absolute best, they come back over time."

Every profile literally states that the Keyblade prevents them from regenerating, it releases their heart and they cannot reform. That's stated by multiple, knowledgeable people. Every character with a Keyblade or empowered by magic consistently negate their regen. It's literally explained right to Sora. Also, healing in KH restores more than just health, Sora went from nearly knocked unconcious with no stamina to full up ready to fight with a simple cure spell.

"Technically right, but we normally reserve this for killing people passively. Speaking of which, the instance where that random man vanishes in Traverse Town and a Heartless appears to collect the remaining heart seems to be an isolated incident. This never happens when any other character comes near a Heartless again. Zero."

Passive hax isn't relevant to Death Manip, and hax since witnessed and shown can become outliers now? Heartless are blatantly stated by Ansem to take hearts by looking at someone or ripping it from them. People who fight that have strong hearts, which in KH allows you to resistance darkness, simple as that. That's why Sora, who we literally follow throughout all the games and physically attacked by Heartless can't take his heart.

"One at a time. EE, nothing supports them being able to EE in a single hit, if at all without stealing the Hearts and it happening as a result of that, so that's bunk. Especially given they easily die to Warp, an EE ability. Mind manipulation for lacking a body/soul is dumb and we've never treated it that way. Transmutation logic, see above with regen. Not to mention by that logic, every character with a godly regen should have transmutation resistance."

I already explained to you how Heartless take hearts, and taking a heart from someone induces erasure, thus it's still EE. You realize that Warp erases the heart of Heartless, an abstraction of someone, right? Soul and mind are the exact same thing in verse, but that's beside the point. Heartless are stated to lack minds, that's resistance/immunity to mind manip. Transmutation comes from Ever's old blog, and Ever has said in a GC that he thinks his old blog is wrong.

"Most of this is Heartless stuff, but it goes doubly so with the Nobody's nonexistent physiology. The Organization 13, the posterboys of Nobodies in the verse, have clear showings of tangibility and being existent. From what I recall, having a Nobody is that your body persists after becoming a Heartless. So unless you're telling me that bodies are nonexistent, at the very least the Organization 13 should lose the standard NEP. Immortality type 5 is dumb too given that many many of them die. Marluxia for example dies in Chain of Memories and has to be created."

Want to show an instance of that when it's not shown with a character who has NPI? Yes, people who have strong will continue to live on with a non-existent body in KH.

5: Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them.

"I think I'm... I'm fading!? No, this isn't... the way I... I won't ALLOW..."

And this is how all Nobodies visually and narratively die. They come back through resurrection/regen of their Nobody and Heartless counterpart being destroyed.

"Most of these inconsistencies are explained away by the supporters of the verse by saying "Oh, Sora and co. have powers that allow them to negate all this stuff!" which again, doesn't work when one, they can kill them with magic, which doesn't involve being touched with the Keyblade, two, the Heartless can be healed so it clearly doesn't negate too much, and three, gosh darned Tarzan can kill them."
Everything said here was addressed.

Btw, this would probably nuke the conceptual destruction the cast has (barring Xehanort). Literally nothing in the series gets conceptually destroyed in a single hit, if at all. Sora outright seppukus himself and still has his heart, Ventus's still exists, frees Kairi's, and exists as a Shadow that regains his body. And the Organization XIII wouldn't be able to come back if they were conceptually deleted by Sora and co., but they do.

The Keyblade of hearts releases/unlocks hearts, not destroys them. Ven's heart wasn't destroyed because it was apart of Sora's, thus it was saved, and Vanitas flatout says both of their hearts would be erased if the X-Blade was destroyed. Nobodies lack a concept, why would they be conceptually destroyed?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Keyblade prevents them from regenerating, yet everyone else can get rid of them no problem? Not just Donald and Goofy, but Beast? Hell, Sora can kill them when he only has magic and no Keyblade. And what you linked isn't anything more than normal healing. Being incapable of fighting and being returned to fighting form? That's literally healing 101. There's nothing to pass off as special there. Cure's basic. Which doesn't negate my argument that if Keyblades were these almighty regen negating weapons, then the Green Requiems shouldn't be capable of healing Heartlesses. Heck, Sora shouldn't be able to heal himself in his fights with other Keyblade wielders like Riku and Aqua.

As I said earlier, saying passively instead of specifically was a typo. And I read all of Ansem's reports. Nothing states that the Heartless can just look at you and take your heart. You're speaking about Ansem Report 4, but it only says their bodies and souls disappear after absorbing the heart. Nothing about passive absorption at all. Everything mentions stealing hearts, sure. But it only mentions going after living hearts and swarming them. And of course shown hax can be outliers, just like everything else. Breathing in space can be an outlier. Why would you think a potent ability never shown again despite the fact that this should be happening every other scene? Sora and Riku would be dead the second the Heartless invaded Destiny Islands, as they don't have the means to protect themselves yet and get their hearts passively stolen. The contradictions outweigh the showings. KH doesn't get a pass.

Okay, debunking that right now. Heartless taking hearts is not EE. It's stated by Ansem time and time again in the very link you gave me that when Heartless take hearts, the body and soul get sent off somewhere else to reincarnate. Heartless are stated to lack emotions, not minds. Ansem states they have some degree of intelligence and he could possibly communicate with them somehow. And finally, prove that Warp erases the abstraction of a Heartless.

An instance where they interact with someone? How about when Gothel kills two Nobodies no problem? Sully manhandling Vanitas? Any of Roxas's interactions with his friends in II? Pretty sure they'd mention if Roxas was like a ghost. But hey, to avoid contradictions we say they all have NPI, which is the epitome of a cop-out instead of addressing the issue. There's not a single showing of the Organization XIII being non-physical, but feats mean nothing.

I'm aware how they die. I'm also aware of the Nobodies being nonexistent after reading more of Ansem's stuff being a lie. They're the body and soul of the beings the Heartless take, but strong enough to persist in their human forms in the case with the Organization. And I'm not talking about their fully human forms returning. Marluxia outright dies in CoM, but he's back in 3. Because they recreated him. Conceptual destruction means there is zero way for Marluxia to come back.

Finally, your last paragraph. Completely ignores the context of the Vanitas thing. Vanitas says their hearts would be gone forever if the X-Blade was destroyed because their hearts make up its being. So destroying it would be destroying their hearts as it literally is their hearts (and if hearts were actually conceptual, like an idea, how does said idea form a blade? Heck? How come they're always physical, looking like a cartoon heart. Why is it not just another aspect of their being unrelated to their soul instead of a whole concept?) And Nobody's don't lack a concept, they lack a soul. A person is made up of more than once concept, dude. Even ignoring the body and soul part I brought up earlier from Ansem, Do I straight up not exist if I'm blind and lack the concept of sight? It's only once concept that I have after all. Nobodies lack a heart, but they sure as heck don't lack a concept.

Even if a lot of my Heartless statements are wrong, Nobodies having nonexistence despite the contradictions has got to go.


"Where does the body go when it separates from the heart? If the soul remains within the body, is it still considered to be deceased? When the heart returns to the Heartless, the physical form disappears. But that is merely true in this world. Perhaps the body exists in another form in another world. If that is the case, then it is possible for one to exist in two worlds. A being that is neither darkness nor light; belonging nowhere; abandoned by its heart; a mere shell of its former self. The relation between the heart and body is complex. However, I am certain that if your self exists here, then by definition, the other cannot truly "exist." The other, the one which does not exist, shall be dubbed, "Nobody.""

Ansem's full of flowery language here. He says that the body and soul devoid of the heart exists somewhere else but also doesn't exist. Yet this right here is what grants them nonexistence.

And there's also this one:

"While beings born of darkness and those lacking hearts may find them convenient, it is dangerous for others to make much use of the corridors of darkness. Darkness erodes the heart. In search of a place to proceed with my research and planning away from prying eyes, I found myself in "Twilight Town." It is a quiet village, forgotten in the chasm between light and darkness. I situated myself in the basement of an abandoned mansion standing beyond the woods. My underground research resulted in one new discovery after another. When a Heartless is born, the body and soul left behind are reborn into this world as a different being. They possess different intentions than their Heartless brethren, and while it is unclear what these sentient "things" are after, it would appear they are responsible for much bedlam in the world. My erstwhile friend the King and his subjects, along with a hero wielding the Keyblade, are battling the Heartless even as a new threat approaches. This new threat...they have given themselves a fitting name, I suppose. These non-beings: "Nobodies." A great number of Nobodies have lost human form, as have the Heartless. Yet the Nobody born of someone with a strong heart retains its shape, with but the faintest visible changes. It appears my betrayers have retained their human forms as Nobodies, and are gathering more followers in hopes of furthering a new scheme. "Organization XIII," formed of 13 Nobodies with my betrayers at its core, has divided into two; they are said to be carrying out some sort of research. Seeking to uncover the plans of this Organization, I have decided to head for where six of its members have gathered. Towering over the outer limits of the realm between darkness and light: Castle Oblivion."

Where he states that Nobodies are just the empty body and soul devoid of the heart. I'm not pulling this out of my ass.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Far from a Kingdom Hearts expert. But after reading through the OP and all the comments following it, I agree with everything that's being proposed here

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Alright, so I'll read through this, but until then I'd suggest to give links for claims like Sora negating their régen instead of healing affecting stamina too.

 

[Theglassman12]

From what little I know of KH, Cal's arguments seem legit.

 

[TriforcePower1]

While I will say to be 100% honest that the reason most Heartless just don't come back is because Keyblades negate their ability to come back, it is very clear that even when they're not killed by that weapon they take a pretty long time to return. Keyblades also just prevent them from coming back, it doesn't negate their regen.

Also, about Heartless being non-physical, that seems fine tbh. Sora cannot hit them in Destiny Island (I really hope I didn't get the name wrong), and he needs to use magic in order to defeat them on Hollow Bastion. I would say NPI is more of a property of magic in general in the KH verse. Disney characters hitting them is either them using magic or a way of balancing stuff (I mean, they fight bosses with the protagonists but we don't scale them to Sora&co)

But I agree with the OP for everything else.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, I'll give my point of view to the stuff on the OP:

>Come back in seconds due to type 8.

Okay, it may be exaggerated, but it's stated in 358/2 Days that if defeated without means related to a Keyblade normally, they come back in a reasonable amount of time, I would like some support on those scans being found, as otherwise I'm fine with it just not being combat applicable if anything.

>Death manipulation

Plants are alive, the power not being useful against practical stuff is another thing, after all, Ganondorf Death Manip'd the Great Deku Tree and we don't pass that as Plant Manip, do we?

>Non-corporeality

This one I can agree with to a degree, however, you only find ones with armor and all that junk of Emblem Heartless, Pureblood ones are another thing, I think just granting this to Pureblood Heartless should be more reasonable.

>Resistance to EE, mind manipulation, and transmutation

Yes, it's a side effect of when they steal a "heart", as the Nobody Physiology page says, a body and soul without a heart simply ceases to exist, those that remain with an strong will can come back as Nobodies, but that's besides this point.

Which is why they resist EE, as for the Mind Manip, well, I'm neutral on that, and as stated above, Transmutation resistance is good to go, it was based on Ever's blog, which he admitted didn't aged well.

> Nobody stuff

Yes, it's pretty blatant in-verse that they are of nonexistent nature, Yen Sid and even themselves talk about them not being truly "existent", and they are stated to be denied by both light and darkness, which is why they fall with NEP type 2, they totally lack a concept to exist.

I likely missed a lot in the discussion, so please update me briefly with what to discuss after replying to this.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

>Come back in seconds due to type 8

I think reducing the timeframe is fine, I'm not sure where seconds even came from. However, using Keyblade wielders as an example of why they shouldn't have this is kinda dumb considering the Keyblade is meant to directly target their connection to darkness. As for Disney characters putting them down, I don't remember this being the case at all. They can harm their forms and such, but they don't have any statements where they outright were stated to perma put down Heartless.

>Death manipulation

When has sentience ever been a factor been when giving the ability? Do I have to define the idea of death for you?

"a permanent cessation of all vital (see VITAL sense 2a) functions : the end of life" - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/death

Okay Cal, please tell me where in this definition that sentience is mentioned. The only thing I see is the fact your function cease to exist and that it is the end of life. I'm not sure if you've just never paid attention in school, but plants are living beings.

Not sure why people are acting as if it's a revalation that killing plants of all things isn't really that potent. The only thing I think makes sense to here honestly is removing it being a passive, rather an active ability. If it's not shown on a passive level multiple times and that's what the site demands, it being active makes more sense than outright losing the ability.

>Non-corporeality

I will actually say that I partially agree with you here. However, the loss of Non-Corporeality via armor and stuff is something that's pretty much exclusive to the Emblem Heartless. And yes, they do get harmed by shit like crates. I think we've mentioned this beforehand, but we forgot to revise/add it. Bob made the physiology pages so you'd have to ask him.

Purebloods should retain this, however. They outright have shown to be impervious to physical attacks like the Ploz person showed and in Hollow Bastion, you literally have to use Magic to harm them. This would moreso just give Magic in the verse Non-Physical Interaction, that's not even inconsistent either since it can harm nobodies.

>"The Organization 13, the posterboys of Nobodies in the verse, have clear showings of tangibility and being existent. From what I recall, having a Nobody is that your body persists after becoming a Heartless. So unless you're telling me that bodies are nonexistent, at the very least the Organization 13 should lose the standard NEP."

Cal, you're literally leaving out context and that's the most pathetic thing you can possibly do. You realize there's more to it beyond just their bodies, right? Hearts already make up your existence and this has been agreed on multiple occasions. They are greater than the body, the soul, and the mind. Whenever the body loses the heart, it loses that identity and shouldn't exist period. That's literally why they are ******* established as "nobodies". So the normal body is not nonexistent on its own, no.

Them having Nonexistent Physiology isn't wrong for the higher nobodies either. There are many statements which pertai to the higher nobodies as well. One of those scenes literally corrects a statements to being that they were nonexistent as well. So yes, you literally did lie when you said the only they had NEP was because of Ansem's statements.

>Rid of Conceptual Destruction

You used like the dumbest examples you could've possibly tried here. Sora stabbed himself with Keyblade of Heart, which unlocks one's heart and doesn't functionally have to be used to destroy. Using the Organization as a reason they shouldn't have Conceptual Destruction is outright ignoring the mechanics of the verse. I'll quote from another page since we just seem to love ignoring those here.

"2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence." - https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nonexistent_Physiology

Do you know what we define the heart as? Well, it has been agreed the heart is your concept. Therefore, if you don't exist at a conceptual level, no shit they can't they conceptually destroy them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this.

>Remove Non-Physical Interaction

Including this because you pretty much mentioned it in the comments. Cal, it's not a ******* anti-feat for non-physical beings to be interacted with, that's why there is literally an entire ******* ability around it. You keep saying that giving NPI is just a poor excuse, yet you've had like 10 different examples shown to you on why you were fundamentally incorrect about the physiologies. If being interacted with by a mass amount of people when you have feats for incoporeality, I'm expecting every Ghost Type Pokemon to lose their Non-Corporeal status. With your atrocious logic, which you've for some reason decided not to apply to Pokemon despite the case being worse there because there are hundreds of Pokemon being able to harm ghost types, then sure we can removed the NPI. But again, just like the Immunity to Soul Manipulationt thing, I want you to go to every verse where a being was interacted with that was Non-Physical and say we need to remove it because of that.

>Hearts aren't concepts and conceptual destruction expanded

Cal, once again, do you not understand what the definition of a concept is?

"an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances" - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concept

First off, you know why they are concepts. They are made distinctively different than just the body, the mind and the soul. It's implied the heart can exist beyond any of them as Xemnas states destroying the soul wouldn't affect the heart of Lea, you have examples of time travel where your physical form is outright ripped away and that's irrelevant to the heart as it still remains, etc. Not only that, the segment in the Final World pretty much shows the whole conceptual thing when Chirithy states it.

Anyway, back on topic to concept, the idea is that the heart is literally their concept of being. If they do not have a concept of being, that only serves in to tie why they have Type 2. And no, that's a huge as hell false equivalency where "Do I straight up not exist if I'm blind and lack the concept of sight?" The difference is that one of them is your outright ability to even exist while one of them is an aspect of something greater, it's not your existence but it helps shape reality. And you realize that once again, there is an example of a character getting Type 2 NEP for this exact reaso? This is what... the 5th time you've acted like the site doesn't treat it like that when it clearly does? Cal, please go to Gretchen's page and ask to remove her Type 2, you seem very confident here on it.

>"Immortality type 5 is dumb too given that many many of them die."

"Immortality Negation (Mid-Godly, can harm Heartless in a fashion that prevents them from coming back; Types 3, 5, and 8."

"Immortality Negation (Mid-Godly, can harm Heartless in a fashion that prevents them from coming back; Types 3, 5, and 8."

"Immortality Negation (Mid-Godly, can harm Heartless in a fashion that prevents them from coming back; Types 3, 5, and 8."

TYPES 3, 5, and 8.

So I think you can already tell why this point is actually stupid given the fact the Keyblade users already negate Type 5 on the page for the Keyblade, which you are once again choosing to ever so coincidentally avoid because it ***** up your entire argument. I'm not sure how this is wrong given literally a good amount of people getting Type 5 comes from the fact they have NEP.

>Resistance to EE, mind manipulation, and Transmutation

This was done because as Bob said, it's a side effect of when they also steal the heart for Existence Erasure. Given they obviously cannot do that to each other, I don't see why that is wrong. Also, losing resistance to Existence Erasure just because an Existence Erasure can affect them is literally dumb. You're entirely ignoring that it just means that they'd have a more potent version of it or the idea the Resistance Negation page exists.

This point, I'm honestly baffled that people have said Cal makes sense here. You say that just it has never been treated that way? That's untruthful and a literal lie.

"Outright immunity should nearly never be given except in certain cases, such as being immune to Soul Manipulation due to lacking a soul." - https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Resistance

Did everyone on this thread just ignore the fact that the literal Resistance page basically negates Cal's entire point? Not enough for you? Let's give examples of characters who literally have a resistance or immunity from not having a soul. Mega Ma (And literally every other Classic Robot in the verse), Goddess Madoka and Devil Homura (Or literally anyone else in this verse that becomes a witch), Flowey, Shulk (Replica Monado Key), Anti-Spiral, Liu Kang (Zombie Key), God (Supernatural), Arthur Penhaligo, Hades Izanami, Kuroto Da, etc. Must I go on about something you can find by just a quick search?

I especially like how literally one of the people agreeing with Cal said this in another thread about resistances, yet they said this was wank?

"A true Immunity can only truly happen if the character/thing completely lacks the target of the abilities/techniques/etc."

So Cal, like I said before, I want you to please go to every other verse that has Immunity to Soul Manipulation/Mind Manipulation for these reasons because rather than making a thread to overall target this "problem" you have, you chose to only do so with Kingdom Hearts, why?

Anyway, as for the Transmutation, I agree with the removal. This is also based on the fact that if they have Incorporeality, they'd already gain that through technicality of having it. It'd be about as redundant as adding Dura Negation for an Existence Erasure. ability.

I'm not replying to this thread past this as I've made it clear I'm sick of this site for the amount of bandwagoning for things like this. I only replied because Speedster literally had home problems and couldn't, but I guess that's not going to be waited on if we keep bandwagoning like people are right now. I really hope to everyone who's reading the thread passed this can think independently and not blindly say Cal is right from now on when I've directly shown for like multiple of his things that he either is demonstrating clear double standards or outright hasn't shown the full context. I am sorry if this comes off as me being rude, but I've honestly had up to this point because there have literally been members and moderators alike mocking the views of the supporters of Kingdom Hearts and it's by far one of the most toxic responses you could give to a situation like this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Starting with the Nobodies because we seem to be on the same page before that.

Hearts make up 1/3 of your existence. This is stated by Ansem. This is shown when Sora loses and his game over screen has his heart floating outside his body with his body not ceasing to exist on a conceptual level. And I'm aware of the statements that Nobodies don't exist. I'm also aware of two concepts that exist in versus debating. One, that flowery language exists, and two, that feats are greater than statements. They don't exist in that they don't have a Heart and it makes them empty. They exist in the literal sense of the word. And they don't have the feats to say otherwise. Furthermore, I don't care if this was accepted before. Undertale went from tier 6 to tier 10. I/O and Marvel were largely accepted to be tier 0 and got removed from it. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

Now onto the conceptual destruction. Hearts aren't your concept, they're a concept. There's a massive difference that the entirety of KH seems to be ignoring. As it's completely different from the body and soul. Not to mention the very thing you quoted contradicts it as Nobodies are not primordial voids or pure emptiness. I'd also like to address the problem of the word concept/conceptual being seen as a trigger word. Not just for KH, but on the wiki in general. Mentioning the word doesn't automatically associate to conceptual manipulation. For example, saying "We got rid of that concept" doesn't mean "we erased this concept on some advanced level." It just means "we don't use that anymore." Because context matters. And that matters here because it's clear when Chirithy says Sora is "Conceptually in pieces", he is clearly using conceptually as a synonym for figuratively. "What? No, not literally, of course. You're conceptually in pieces." The quote uses the word literally, and uses conceptually as an antonym. So no, it's not saying Sora's platonic concept was spread across the wind or anything like that.

Now onto NPI. Here I'll actually give it to you, but for Heartless. Not for the Organization XIII or Nobodies. Heartless have actually shown the feats of being unable to be interacted with, with Sora at the beginning of the game. So I could see Keyblade and magic wielders having NPI for harming Pureblood Heartless. But the difference between them and the Organization III? Or them and Ghost Pokemon? Or them and Stands? That despite the contradictions, they actually have demonstrable feats of being incapable of being interacted with, instead of assuming they are from flowery text with nothing supporting that.

Now onto the hearts and concepts. It's a concept in the same way that a soul is a concept. Just because it's different from the body and the soul doesn't mean it's unequal to them. It's a concept in the loosest way possible. A good showing of concept manipulation in KH is when Nobodies steal the concept of a photo. Not this. Furthermore, Kriemhild Gretchen isn't a good example. She has nonexistence because Madoka outright erases her from existence. False equivalency.

Now onto the type 5. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said give a character an ability as a cop-out instead of addressing the problem at hand. They were given the ability no negate type 5 despite the fact addressing what gives them type 5 in the first place. What says they're removed from the cycle of death? If there's stuff proving that, then I'll shut up. But until then, my point still stands.

Now onto the resistances. Firstly, you talking about resistance negation. I want you to check the history and see who made the page before you try to lecture me on that. Heartless have never shown to EE right off the bat, so they don't get resistance from hitting each other. And getting nuked by Warp is icing on the cake. Nothing shows that Warp is better EE, and they don't show resistance to any baseline EE abilities. If a Heartless for example no-sold a Hakai and then died to Warp, you'd have a point (don't think too much about it, it's an example). But not here.

I don't mind the attitude, and I don't find you being rude. You're being passionate on defending your series. I can see that. While I vehemently disagree with your take, I can respect them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Cal

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So, I've read the OP and the first four walls of texts.

For now I'm agreeing with Cal. The Heartless as explained by Hansen don't fit non-existence. And if they did, granting them resistance to existence erasure is stupid, since they allegedly got erased.

For the resistances, I distinctly remember a page mentioning that resistance done through sheer will power can't be translated to resistance to normal stuff. It can be listed, but it's pretty bad. I think it was SBA?

I'm neutral about non-corporeal. If shown to be at the beginning but then practically retconned then either putting a possibly before it or removing seem to be the better options.

That immortality seems to be a type 4 over time to me.

Ps.: Sorry for typos, on a phone. Will probably edit later.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Agreed with Cal.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Trying to stay neutral, Nobodies shouldn't be non-corporeal for the simple fact that they're quite literally what remains of a body and soul after someone loses their hearts. They're stated to have a body, so unless there are feats that I'm forgetting about, they shouldn't have NC. Maybe Roxas trying to hit and failing to hurt a Nobody at the start of KHII may help, but considering it was in an virtual world it may not be accurate evidence.

Now, this isn't meant to be an argument, nor do I have proof of this. It's just speculation that I'm too lazy to search evidence for. Could the reason why Nobodies are considered nonexistent by the verse's standards be because they lack the concepts of Light and Darkness within them? We know that the heart, which Nobodies don't have, contains these concepts, and they are stated to be rejected by both Light and Darkness. Maybe this is confirmed somewhere in the series?

 

[Imaginym]

I'm mostly neutral on this. Some of it I agree or disagree with. There's stuff in this thread I'd like to reply about, if that's alright. Although, right now, I lack the time to make such a substantial reply. Ideally, I'll do so as early by Sunday afternoon or so, probably later. (But I can understand if people don't feel my reply is worth waiting for.)

Put briefly, I think some things were looked over, but I'm unsure they'd impact the debates at hand much anyway.

 

[Bobsican]

> Nobody stuff

Sora being with his "heart" out in the game over screen only happens when he's killed by a Heartless, seriously, when he's defeated by a Disney guy, any FF guy or even Nobodies, etc., the "heart" part doesn't show up, meaning that Sora's body is left at a side and the "heart" is kept on floating out, this is nothing more than a representation of Sora being dead, and shouldn't be taken as an anti feat considering it's, as you said, nothing more than the game over screen, which isn't even canon obviously beyond that event in KHIII where Sora dies to Xehanort and Donald and Goofy manage to bring him back from there, and that one didn't even showed his "heart" going out anyways.

His body still being visible doesn't mean that it still "exists", every single Nobody is still visible, they don't have to be "true voids" or whatever normally type 2 NEP is, as it states:

"Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."

- Nonexistent Physiology, regarding type 2

Typically they are voids, but in KH that's simply not the case, verse mechanics and all, which isn't even needed anyways, as stated previously, that's not actually a requirement.

Yes, their existence opposes Light and Darkness, which are the concepts everything in the verse (including "hearts" as we all know) are made of, which is even more blatant when you remember that everyone in the verse (including even themselves) treats the Nobodies as being of "Nonexistent" nature and all.

And they do have the feats, just look at the time Roxas couldn't hit a simple Dusk because he didn't have a Keyblade, I've heard of "But it's data" argument, but Axel was there too, and he remembers all of those events as pointed later in KHII, so that's not really an usable argument here either.

> Conceptual Destruction

"Hearts" are the concept of each of its users, that's why when someone loses it becomes a Nobody, as stated before, among other things.

It seems now you want to debunk it being of conceptual nature to begin with, that was discussed a lot already, and we all know that there's no other way to interpret the "conceptually in pieces" part with how Chirithy expressed it, it's even consistent with the other stuff around supporting it, so don't act like it's being based only on something extremely questionable, on the contrary, it's pretty solid and even WoG supports the idea.

> Nobody and NPI stuff

As stated before, Roxas could smack a simple Dusk (A Nobody species if you didn't knew) until he got the Keyblade at the start of KHII, or the time Sora, DOnald and Goofy point out to Rapunzel and Flynn in KHIII how Nobodies can't just be smacked with a frying pan. Show me whatever feats you can think of this being seemingly contradicted and I'll reply accordingly.

> Type 5 Immortality on Nobodies

Well, Nobodies no longer exist in the conventional sense as stated above, what makes them different from the other cases of type 5 via NEP like Digimon? This is the only one I'm unsure one, but I'm neutral.

> Resistances

Yeah, Heartless lead with stealing "hearts" from whatever is on their path, and the EE is produced from that as stated before, a verse mechanic, it (the resistance) to EE being limited is another thing, if anything it could be reworded to be pointed out to be virtually useless outside their verse.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Wait, I tought type 1 was being argued. Type 2 is a no go at all. Like, zero chance.

A type 2 is the most absolute of nothing. It cannot be defined by existence. They cannot be bound by duality and other things like that. Taking a humanoid form with thoughts and bound by both duality and time is not an absolutely nonexistent being.

You can at best argue type 1, but that is it.

Being opposed to what makes up reality is not an excuse for this. They still exist quite clearly in a way that makes type 2 a no go.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, light and darkness are said to be what makes up the world? Does it say things like rocks and air and etc. are made up of light and/or darkness, or just people? I know worlds can fall to darkness but that's not meaning they're made of light/darkness.

I'll respond to Bob's stuff in my subsequent post.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'll also give you NPI for basic Nobodies. But the Organization, the humanoid ones, still shouldn't get it.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, they lack a concept, as stated before, so they qualify for type 2 NEP per definition, just not in an higher degree than others with it if anything.

 

[Rocker1189]

I agree with pretty much everything risci has said and mostly with cal. Also I really think that the pages for both the heartless and nobodies should have much more scans.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Are we talking about type 2 concepts here? This stuff doesn't sound type 2 at all to me.

And if it's not type 2, then it doesn't really matter at all.


They contradict just about everything type 2 describes anyway. They do not lack absolutely everything, they definitly are in a state and do not defy logical principles on that fundamental a level, and they do not defy all forms of existence. They are bound by laws of reality and causuality, and are all around not type 2.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Wait, how can keyblade users destroy the concept of darkness?

Like, how can it be done by multiple characters?

If you destroy a type 2 concept, that's it. All manifestations of the concept cease being, and they become a complete impossibility to even theorize about.

If anyone éve destroyed said concept, how the hell did it come back to be destroyed again?

 

[Bobsican]

I guess just type 1 NEP with conceptual inexistence would be more reasonable then? As they lack a "heart", once again, meaning that they wouldn't be affected by conventional concept manip.

Abd all Nobodies are humanoid, after all, they all come from the same thing, those with an strong "will" just become with the exact same looks as back when they were "Somebodies", aka, Organization XIII, so to limit it to other sorts without stuff supporting it is a no. I would like for you to explan, Cal, this double standard regarding them.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That's why type 2 makes no sense. They can't be bound by a form. Like, defined shapes are a big no-no for some(no)thing that doesn't exist.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, as stated before, currently type 2 NEP doesn't lists that as an actual requirement, if anything, a CRT on their standards would have to be done, as for the current way it is they seem to qualify for such (Type 2 NEP).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."

Do I need to explain why"a human body isn't" unknowable in the truest form"? Or any of the quoted requirements?

 

[Bobsican]

They are indeed in an state of nonexistence on a conceptual level, it being knowable in (their) truest form seems to be the issue, as they are indeed in an abstract state that opposes the state of existence on all the levels they reside (light and darkness).

I guess just not meeting all the criteria sends it to just (Above average) type 1 NEP?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Not all leveles, they are not. Lacking a concept that is normally part of a person doesn't make all the other things that blatantly exist about them.

They are knowable though, very much. They have defined bodies and logic. Being opposed to what makes up reality makes you a different existence, not a non-existent.

And yeah, type 1 would be better fitting.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm fine with type 1 NEP in that case.

Gotta wait for what Cal has to say, however.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just looked into Mickey's statement about light and darkness making up everything. I'm..very surprised such a statement was taken as literally as it was.

This one, I mea

Normally we require faaaar more proof to say that something is a concept that makes up everything in the universe. Hell, Zelda has a similar statement about light and twilight and I wouldn't dream of giving them conceptual stuff for that.