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Heartless/Nobody Downgrades

Again, the heart is just once facet that makes up the Organization XIII. They have bodies and souls, but no hearts. And once again, I'm very iffy on hearts being conceptual when they're shown to be physical time and time again.
 
"the heart is just once facet that makes up the Organization XIII. They have bodies and souls, but no hearts"

You are contradicting yourself here, the first sentence is stating that hearts are something that are part of Org. XIII, but the latter statement declines this, as we all know they are Nobodies.

As for the Light and Darkness stuff:

It comes from "hearts" being made of light and darkness (Which is quite explicit and we all know that), and it being stated that "hearts" make up everything.
 
I meant to say that makes up a person in KH. I just had the 13 on the mind. Another mistake on my part.
 
It's said all life has heart. Not hearts make up everything. I read Nomura's statments.

" I think of "all life has heart" as the most basic premise of KH."
 
What may also hurt their case is that Nobodies aren't totally devoid of Hearts; It's possible for a Nobody to GROW a Heart, something Roxas & Xion did, as did other Organization XIII members! For Roxas & Xion, it took about a year, but they definitely did so.

IIRC, Xemnas deliberately hid the fact they can do so, instead, to manipulate the members, making them think they were incapable of emotion & such.

And in fact, many Org. XIII members returning for KH3 was based on this; They had Vexen make Replicas (The same kind of artificial body Xion has, her being made by him supporting by her turning to ice during her death in 358/2 Days.) so that the Hearts of the dead Org. XIII members could Time Travel -as you must abandon your physical form, & being just a Heart is fine for this- & then the body-less Heart would go into the Replica. Since time travelling to where another version of yourself exists, this let the Heart get to their new bodies.

(At least, that's my memory of it. It's not exact.)

TL;DR - Nobodies aren't even always devoid of Hearts, because they can grow them.

Individuals can also be reformed via Recompletion: The destruction of the Nobody & the Heartless, causing the original person they spawned from (The Nobody) to reform, like with Xehanort.

Also, to clear up some misconceptions that were brought up earlier in this thread:

1. The real cal howard said: "A good showing of concept manipulation in KH is when Nobodies steal the concept of a photo." It's... debatable if that was stealing the concept of a Photo.

2. The real cal howard said: "An instance where they interact with someone? How about when Gothel kills two Nobodies no problem? Sully manhandling Vanitas? Any of Roxas's interactions with his friends in II?" (Bolded section is the focus.)

To explain both:


  • Roxas, near the end of his first year of existence, is blacking out & getting Sora's memories as Namine puts Sora's back together, causing those connected to Sora to remember him. Also, Sora needs Roxas -Roxas is part of him, & was half of Sora's power at the time.- to merge with Sora for Sora to be able to awaken.
  • Organization XIII wants Roxas -he's defected at this point- back because he's a Keyblade-wielding Nobody, but Roxas isn't safe to leave on his own; Org. XII would wreck & steal him, so Ansem the Wise/DiZ (Darkness in Zero) has Riku capture him & puts Roxas in a Virtual Twilight Town.
  • Ansem/DiZ alters Roxas's memory with Data, making him believe he's an ordinary boy. He spends just shy of a week in Virtual Twilight Town, believing it's his last week of summer vacation. As far as we know, he never went to school, despite remembering it. Eventually, his memories of Sora & Axel & Org. XIII getting too close lead to Ansem freezing time in the virtual world, summoning Roxas to the Old Mansion, & Roxas regains his memories of his time in Org. XIII, making him smash Ansem's computer in rage.
  • Roxas merges with Sora (Somehow, despite Roxas still being in VTT & Sora not.), being out of options.
Now, with that context given:

The Nobodies were Dusks, sent to capture Roxas. But as Ansem the Wise/DiZ/Darkness in Zero tells us, they failed because, in the Virtual Twilight Town, the Dusks couldn't tell the photos of Roxas apart from the real Roxas.

As a result, the Dusks stole not just the photos, but the data of them, & the word, too; Hence why nobody in VTT could say "photo" afterwards!

As for Roxas interacting with Hayner, Pence &/or Olette in Virtual Twilight Town, those were virtual versions/simulations of them who had been programmed to know him. However, at this point, Roxas had existed nearly a year & via his experiences, had practically grown a Heart of his own.

Hence, he forged a connection with the REAL, Hayner, Pence & Olette because of Roxas's Heart bonding with the Virtual versions of him. Thus, after Roxas merges with an unknowing Sora & Sora visits the REAL Twilight Town, Roxas's bonds with Hayner, Pence & Olette's Hearts causes feelings in them & Sora, despite that they're the real versions he barely ever met in 358/2 Days, & not the Virtual versions he was made to know in VTT.


I hope this helps clear things up!

(Also, at some point later, I might like to discuss some dialogue about how Nobodies don't exist. I'll have to check some videos again, & I don't know nor care whether it gets them Type 1/2 NEP or whatever. I just want us to have a certain & comprehensive understanding, if that's alright.)
 
@Imaginym

Right now we are discussing it on Cal at Discord (Check the KH Discord Group).

Once we conclude there we can bring the proper conclusions here.

I still have to point out something, however, the moment a Nobody grows a "heart", they no longer are Nobodies, but are instead a Somebody.
 
Okay, after some discussion with Cal at Discord, we managed to agree that everything is fine but:

- Transmutation resistance has to go

- Intangibility only applies for Pureblood Heartless.
 
Well, I'm sure the transmuation resistance being gone was agreed on here, and the latter was at least brought up and all.
 
Can somebody summarise the arguments here please?
 
I wouldn't be sure about Intangibility only applying to Pureblood Heartless. It has already been pointed out that Sora needed magic in Hollow Bastion without his Keyblade in order to do any damage to the Heartless there. Emblem Heartless having armor isn't really an argument for them not having Intangibility in my opinion. I'm pretty sure that there are many characters with armor that still possess Intangibility and I'm also under the impression that the armor is simply part of the Heartlesses in question.
 
When is the Resistance against Transmutation going to be removed?
 
Why should the resistance be removed?
 
Bobsican said that it has been agreed to remove the Resistance so I thought that someone should do that now.
 
I do not think so. I can close this thread if you wish.
 
Bobscian

'Okay, after some discussion with Cal at Discord, we managed to agree that everything is fine but:

- Transmutation resistance has to go

- Intangibility only applies for Pureblood Heartless.'

Cal

'I haven't once said that.'

Uhhhhh....
 
Well, then I guess the Intangibility can still be discussed, but it seems that it staying is more agreed on.
 
Do you havve some arguments for it being removed that you want to mention?
 
So should I close this thread?
 
If nobody has anything to discuss anymore, you probably should.
 
Everything I've said both here and on Discord. I've yet to respond to whoever sent the Re:Mind stuff.
 
You're aware I'm a college student and my time is limited, right? My time that I used to spend on the wiki I'm more using for actually enjoying myself with real people. Hell, simply responding to you is taking from class.
 
Oh, I wasn't aware, sorry.

Take your time then, but please just make sure to eventually reply or so.
 
Hey, so I'm a bit late to the party, but there's just a quick point I want to bring up. With the Nobodies not being able to feel emotion, I'm certain that in DDD it's stated that Nobodies will eventually grow their own Hearts and Xemnas was lying to make Organization XIII go with his plan to claim Kingdom Hearts. That seems to be the reason why Roxas still existed inside Sora and could have a Heart to Heart interaction in Re:Mind. Sure, it's not combat applicable, but maybe it could be added as a type of Limited Abstract Physiology kind of thing in the general abilities?
 
Well, the abstract stuff got removed for now, so I would focus on the other main CRTs the series holds right now, as that's where that's being handled. And that was already listed as Ressurection on the Nobody Physiology page IIRC, it's also not combat applicable, but we all know that.
 
@Bob

I know defeating a Heartless and a Nobody makes the Somebody come back, but cases of Roxas and Xion getting their own hearts (as shown in Re:Mind when they synched theirs with Lea's) is a different case
 
They're still non-existent. A nobody isn't going to suddenly grow a heart in the middle of combat, profiles already state they lose it as a Somebody.
 
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