Headmaster vs Kat (Demon King Daimao VS Gravity Rush)

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Soo what's the consensus on this?

Not much of a consensus between us. It's mostly that I think Headmaster has everything needed to counter Kat even with his more limited arsenal, while the opposition argues she out spams him, which I've also answered.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think this too mixes AP with LS when they are distinct things in this context. While TK can have AP when used to accelerate an object at high speeds, simply applying force to restrain or push someone does not inherently equate to an AP based attack. If something is being moved at a high speed, the damage comes from the kinetic energy, not from just being pushed. If Kat’s stasis field applies force to "paralyze" or push an opponent, it remains a matter of LS—only when she uses it to cause acceleration would it act as an AP based attack. Since the Headmaster has higher LS, he resists the force outright.

I think your Mach 500 analogy assumes that force applied by TK automatically translates into damage regardless of movement or impact...like before. However, being hit with a force that could launch someone at Mach 500 is not the same as actually being launched at that speed. The damage in your example would result from the immense acceleration tearing the body apart, which would only be a thing if the object is moved at such speeds successfully. Since the LS advantage would prevent the motion from happening, then no acceleration or impact happens, meaning no AP. Here since the Headmaster is strong enough to resist with LS, the AP effect never happens at high speed, and the force remains an LS vs LS rather than an AP.

Also, I am still confused since before one of you mentioned that it (TK) simply spawns on the opponent, so like, it's inherently no AP here. Don't know why I'm having this long conversation about AP vs LS. Not to mention, nothing stops Headmaster from using Magic based TK to counteract her. He won't do it immediately, since as I've said before his standard tactic is Hua Jin, but it's entirely possible if needed.

The thing you're misunderstanding is that Telekinesis (and gravity) ARE a force. They can physically interact and damage things. The Lifting Strength is irrelevant, because all it means is they will stand in place as an invisible force 3x stronger than their durability slams into them. It's no different from an invisible wall slamming into you. Having the LS to not get launched doesn't stop you from being hit by the force of telekinesis. The force of telekinesis doesn't come from it moving things. It comes from being an invisible energy that acts in a direction based on the users mind.

This argument is asinine imo because it means the attack potency of a psychic is irrelevant so long as the opponent has greater LS. Which means you get to stupid situations where a Galaxy level Psychic with Class 100 LS can't scratch a Class K Wall level character because they can't cause them to move. The energy of telekinesis does not come from moving you. It comes from itself. It IS KE. It's literally an invisible force that acts on things.

The very fact they can generate concussive force through gravity with punches and kicks that blows up things on impact without accelerating them in the game is a debunk of this in and of itself.

But even if we want to say that LS nullifies the concussive/blunt force of her gravity, she can still crush things. And crushing things is AP. It just doubles as LS. And the wiki accepts crushing things as AP. So if you disagree with that, I assume you'd have to make some site-wide CRT to say that crushing things doesn't count as AP or smth.

Also yes, the gravity just kinda spawns around the enemy... and then acts/moves in a direction that presses against the surface of their body to move them. The gravity impacts your body. That in and of itself is an impact.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Too many words, someone give me a TLDR

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

The thing you're misunderstanding is that Telekinesis (and gravity) ARE a force. They can physically interact and damage things. The Lifting Strength is irrelevant, because all it means is they will stand in place as an invisible force 3x stronger than their durability slams into them. It's no different from an invisible wall slamming into you. Having the LS to not get launched doesn't stop you from being hit by the force of telekinesis. The force of telekinesis doesn't come from it moving things. It comes from being an invisible energy that acts in a direction based on the users mind.

I think you might be contradicting yourself by acknowledging that TK is a force but then treating it as an attack that inherently scales to AP. Yes, TK is a force, (never said otherwise) but the issue is whether it applies AP or just LS. The force by TK in this case is not accelerating an object to cause kinetic damage, it is just pressing against something. You even said that LS means the opponent "will stand in place" as the force "slams into them," but this directly supports my argument: if they can stand in place and not move, then there is no acceleration, no kinetic impact, and so no AP. If Kat's TK just "spawns on them" as you say, then it's applying force in place, which is purely a matter of LS, not AP. So, Headmaster would resist.

This argument is asinine imo because it means the attack potency of a psychic is irrelevant so long as the opponent has greater LS. Which means you get to stupid situations where a Galaxy level Psychic with Class 100 LS can't scratch a Class K Wall level character because they can't cause them to move. The energy of telekinesis does not come from moving you. It comes from itself. It IS KE. It's literally an invisible force that acts on things.

Your example of a Galaxy level psychic being unable to hurt a Wall level character with higher LS misrepresents things. AP is relevant, but it's not automatically linked to TK unless it is actually delivering an attack that deals damage through kinetic energy or some other means. Your comparison is wrong IMO because AP and LS are not inherently correlated. There are plenty of Low 2-C (Universe level+) characters who only have finite LS, and their AP does not suddenly let them exert infinite LS on an opponent. The idea that "TK energy does not come from moving you" but "is KE" is contradictory since KE is directly tied to motion, so if something is not being moved, then no KE is being applied in an offensive way.

The very fact they can generate concussive force through gravity with punches and kicks that blows up things on impact without accelerating them in the game is a debunk of this in and of itself.

The example of concussive force from gravity punches and kicks in the game is irrelevant here because those are explicitly using impact to cause destruction. A punch or kick with gravity buff is still an attack that delivers force through an actual impact, which is different from static TK field holding things in place. Kat generating shockwaves by striking something is a clear application of AP, whereas just applying force against an opponent without moving them is not. If her TK was throwing objects at high speed or slamming people into walls, then that would be an application of AP. But simply restraining or pushing someone does not qualify as AP based damage.

But even if we want to say that LS nullifies the concussive/blunt force of her gravity, she can still crush things. And crushing things is AP. It just doubles as LS. And the wiki accepts crushing things as AP. So if you disagree with that, I assume you'd have to make some site-wide CRT to say that crushing things doesn't count as AP or smth.

Crushing something does require LS, which is why it's not about AP. The ability to apply pressure to a thing until it's destroyed depends on if the force used is greater than the object's structure, which overlaps with LS. AFAIK this is why the wiki already differentiates between characters who can exert force to crush something but do not have AP on the level of destruction they can cause by physically striking an object. (e.g. Low 2-C not having infinite LS) If you think "crushing things is just AP," then that would mean LS itself inherently scales to AP, which is not the case. AP and LS have overlap in some areas, but they are still different.

Also yes, the gravity just kinda spawns around the enemy... and then acts/moves in a direction that presses against the surface of their body to move them. The gravity impacts your body. That in and of itself is an impact.

You say that "gravity just spawns around the enemy" and then "acts/moves in a direction," but that means it is not inherently delivering an impact. Simply being surrounded by a force does not inherently deal AP damage, it only applies force in a way that interacts with the opponent's LS. Since the Headmaster's LS is greater than the force being applied, then he resists being moved or crushed, and no AP based effect takes place. So far from what I've seen, Kat’s gravity abilities don't seem to work like projectiles that delivered KE. So based on how it functions, it does not inherently justify AP damage unless she's throwing things, in which case Headmaster's Hua Jin counters it.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Too many words, someone give me a TLDR

I'll try to do a good TL;DR I guess.

Kat has a 3x AP advantage, multiple shifts (Gravity Shifting, Lunary Style), and the ability to spam attacks with added versatility. However, I believe Headmaster's more limited kit can effectively counter all of this. He can deflect spam attacks with Hua Jin, his superior LS means gravity won’t affect him much, and his greater experience gives him an edge. His fighting style is specifically designed to counter mages, including those who use magic and projectiles. He can evade her Black Hole using a hologram, has superior stamina if the fight drags on (Peak Human vs. Superhuman), and can also use mana balls as an offensive option. Any close range encounter will work in Headmasters favor, which seems to be her standard tactic as well. Then again, her profile doesn't have that section so I'm going off what I've seen.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think you might be contradicting yourself by acknowledging that TK is a force but then treating it as an attack that inherently scales to AP. Yes, TK is a force, (never said otherwise) but the issue is whether it applies AP or just LS. The force by TK in this case is not accelerating an object to cause kinetic damage, it is just pressing against something. You even said that LS means the opponent "will stand in place" as the force "slams into them," but this directly supports my argument: if they can stand in place and not move, then there is no acceleration, no kinetic impact, and so no AP. If Kat's TK just "spawns on them" as you say, then it's applying force in place, which is purely a matter of LS, not AP. So, Headmaster would resist.

There's an acceleration of "telekinetic energy" (In this case Gravity). It's established her gravity can be used as a concussive/blunt attack on an enemy already. It doesn't need to move opponents to damage them, because the gravity acts as if it has its own kinetic energy. Though more on this next

Your example of a Galaxy level psychic being unable to hurt a Wall level character with higher LS misrepresents things. AP is relevant, but it's not automatically linked to TK unless it is actually delivering an attack that deals damage through kinetic energy or some other means. Your comparison is wrong IMO because AP and LS are not inherently correlated. There are plenty of Low 2-C (Universe level+) characters who only have finite LS, and their AP does not suddenly let them exert infinite LS on an opponent. The idea that "TK energy does not come from moving you" but "is KE" is contradictory since KE is directly tied to motion, so if something is not being moved, then no KE is being applied in an offensive way.

I didn't claim AP and LS are intrinsically connected. But that in some cases, the two are. This is why there are several forms of AP feats that can also be calculated as LS. I.e. feats involving jumping and leaving behind a crater doubles as AP and LS. And are accepted on the wiki and in use on profiles. The same goes for crushing feats. If a Galaxy level character with Class 100 LS tries to TK crush a character with Class K LS but Wall level durability, they are instantaneously exploding from being crushed by Galaxy level AP.

The example of concussive force from gravity punches and kicks in the game is irrelevant here because those are explicitly using impact to cause destruction. A punch or kick with gravity buff is still an attack that delivers force through an actual impact, which is different from static TK field holding things in place. Kat generating shockwaves by striking something is a clear application of AP, whereas just applying force against an opponent without moving them is not. If her TK was throwing objects at high speed or slamming people into walls, then that would be an application of AP. But simply restraining or pushing someone does not qualify as AP based damage.

The thing is that the kicks and punches don't even make contact with the objects. Her attacks generate gravitational shockwaves that destroy everything they come into contact with. What I'm saying is that Kat can simply use that on Headmaster. Use a concussive gravity attack that he is unable to avoid due to the nature of it being TK like (So long as he's within range ofc) continuously until he's dead.

Crushing something does require LS, which is why it's not about AP. The ability to apply pressure to a thing until it's destroyed depends on if the force used is greater than the object's structure, which overlaps with LS. AFAIK this is why the wiki already differentiates between characters who can exert force to crush something but do not have AP on the level of destruction they can cause by physically striking an object. (e.g. Low 2-C not having infinite LS) If you think "crushing things is just AP," then that would mean LS itself inherently scales to AP, which is not the case. AP and LS have overlap in some areas, but they are still different.

The only reason this conversation is even happening is because the wiki separates LS from AP, when irl, the two are far more connected. But yes, crushing things actually IS also tied to AP. If you would like, I will even link you to accepted calculations of crushing feats being used to get AP. It's literally just multiplying the volume of the crushed thing by the pulverization value, which is just the value of compression for materials. Crushing things isn't just LS, it's AP and LS. Both can be calculated, and are accepted by wiki standards. Yes, you can have a Low 2-C with finite LS (Only in fiction). But I never argued that LS always has to correlate to AP. Just that there are applications of AP or LS that can involve the other. Hence why you can have calculations of the same feat, one for LS, and the other for AP.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

There's an acceleration of "telekinetic energy" (In this case Gravity). It's established her gravity can be used as a concussive/blunt attack on an enemy already. It doesn't need to move opponents to damage them, because the gravity acts as if it has its own kinetic energy. Though more on this next

You're mixing two different things. Kat’s gravity shockwaves work like conventional shockwaves, meaning they transfer KE and deal AP. But her static TK doesn’t do that—it applies force without acceleration, meaning it's purely a matter of LS. If she isn’t hitting Headmaster with a shockwave, she’s just trying to restrain him, which he can resist. (Also, Hua Jin, thanks to its ability to control muscles and generally great skill, allows Headmaster to still deflect Boichiro's attacks which create shockwaves and devastating attacks. So, this would also be covered.)

I didn't claim AP and LS are intrinsically connected. But that in some cases, the two are. This is why there are several forms of AP feats that can also be calculated as LS. I.e. feats involving jumping and leaving behind a crater doubles as AP and LS. And are accepted on the wiki and in use on profiles. The same goes for crushing feats. If a Galaxy level character with Class 100 LS tries to TK crush a character with Class K LS but Wall level durability, they are instantaneously exploding from being crushed by Galaxy level AP.

AFAIK crushing feats are calculated as AP because they assume the force necessary to overcome a things toughness, but that doesn’t change the fact that LS determines whether something can even be crushed in the first place. If Headmaster’s LS is high enough to resist, then Kat’s TK pressure alone won’t break him, no matter her AP.

The thing is that the kicks and punches don't even make contact with the objects. Her attacks generate gravitational shockwaves that destroy everything they come into contact with. What I'm saying is that Kat can simply use that on Headmaster. Use a concussive gravity attack that he is unable to avoid due to the nature of it being TK like (So long as he's within range ofc) continuously until he's dead.

You say that "TK energy doesn’t need to move someone to be KE," but KE requires motion. If Kat’s TK just applies force in place, it’s not KE AP, but it’s LS restraint.

The only reason this conversation is even happening is because the wiki separates LS from AP, when irl, the two are far more connected. But yes, crushing things actually IS also tied to AP. If you would like, I will even link you to accepted calculations of crushing feats being used to get AP. It's literally just multiplying the volume of the crushed thing by the pulverization value, which is just the value of compression for materials. Crushing things isn't just LS, it's AP and LS. Both can be calculated, and are accepted by wiki standards. Yes, you can have a Low 2-C with finite LS (Only in fiction). But I never argued that LS always has to correlate to AP. Just that there are applications of AP or LS that can involve the other. Hence why you can have calculations of the same feat, one for LS, and the other for AP.

Yes, AP and LS can overlap in specific feats, but that doesn’t mean LS is AP or that AP always translates to LS. The wiki differentiates the two for a reason, and "crushing" being calculable for AP doesn’t erase the fundamental role of LS in resisting it.

---

So, in conclusion, even if we grant that Kat could apply AP through TK (which I don’t think is proven here, and Hua Jin is built different), Headmaster’s kit still counters her. He can deflect, evade, and has better stamina. If all she has is a questionable TK crush argument and spam, that’s not enough to say she wins IMO.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Kat FRA.

 

[Dalesean027]

his superior LS means gravity won’t affect him much

You're mixing two different things. Kat’s gravity shockwaves work like conventional shockwaves, meaning they transfer KE and deal AP. But her static TK doesn’t do that—it applies force without acceleration, meaning it's purely a matter of LS. If she isn’t hitting Headmaster with a shockwave, she’s just trying to restrain him, which he can resist. (Also, Hua Jin, thanks to its ability to control muscles and generally great skill, allows Headmaster to still deflect Boichiro's attacks which create shockwaves and devastating attacks. So, this would also be covered.

His LS is only 1.38x higher he just barely scales above Kat, that doesn't mean he resist he will struggle to deal with it a decent bit even if he can power through it which Kat could still freely move regardless of her stasis field there is no reason why she wouldn't attack him when he's struggling to get out of her stuff thats if she doesn't even just start trying to push and launch him or crush him all of which would apply AP as you yourself have said, he also isn't deflecting any of it as its all via her stasis field so its simply a matter of if you're in range or not nothing to do with it being sent out, hell at starting distance he's in range to immediately be affected if she uses it to grab anything in the area he would passively be included in that and have to fight to overpower it while she can wail him with a number of amped projectiles, or melee, or just do any number of attacks apply force in AP attempting to push or throw him around which will all cause damage

AFAIK crushing feats are calculated as AP because they assume the force necessary to overcome a things toughness, but that doesn’t change the fact that LS determines whether something can even be crushed in the first place. If Headmaster’s LS is high enough to resist, then Kat’s TK pressure alone won’t break him, no matter her AP.

That's great he is still being hit with 3x his AP regardless she would still be applying that level of force as well he isn't immune to it just because of slightly higher LS

He can deflect, evade, and has better stamina. If all she has is a questionable TK crush argument and spam, that’s not enough to say she wins IMO.

If he's grabbed and she attempted to throw him around, crush him or launch anything at him while he's trying to break through her stasis field he will be harmed by her AP and he would barely be able to move since her LS is very relevant to his with their being a slight difference in their values he would struggle some still even if he was stronger so she has way more room to attack

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

His LS is only 1.38x higher he just barely scales above Kat, that doesn't mean he resist he will struggle to deal with it a decent bit even if he can power through it which Kat could still freely move regardless of her stasis field there is no reason why she wouldn't attack him when he's struggling to get out of her stuff thats if she doesn't even just start trying to push and launch him or crush him all of which would apply AP as you yourself have said,

Even if Headmaster struggles, LS still determines whether Kat's TK can actually restrain him. A higher LS means she has to focus more effort in keeping him contained rather than attacking freely. Just because she can move doesn’t mean she can do so effectively while maintaining control over someone stronger than her in LS. Also, "struggling" doesn’t mean he’s done for, it just means he’s resisting, making it harder for her to keep him restrained while dealing with his counters.

he also isn't deflecting any of it as its all via her stasis field so its simply a matter of if you're in range or not nothing to do with it being sent out, hell at starting distance he's in range to immediately be affected if she uses it to grab anything in the area he would passively be included in that and have to fight to overpower it while she can wail him with a number of amped projectiles, or melee, or just do any number of attacks apply force in AP attempting to push or throw him around which will all cause damage

Being in range doesnt mean he’s automatically damaged since LS and AP arent the same thing. If his LS is high enough to resist being thrown or crushed, then no KE is being transferred in a way that deals damage. She can spam projectiles, but Headmaster can still evade, deflect, or counterattack. If she splits focus between restraining him and attacking, that makes it easier for him to break free.

That's great he is still being hit with 3x his AP regardless she would still be applying that level of force as well he isn't immune to it just because of slightly higher LS

If he's grabbed and she attempted to throw him around, crush him or launch anything at him while he's trying to break through her stasis field he will be harmed by her AP and he would barely be able to move since her LS is very relevant to his with their being a slight difference in their values he would struggle some still even if he was stronger so she has way more room to attack

Crushing calculations assume something can be crushed in the first place, no? If LS is high enough the force doesn’t reach the bar needed to actually damage him meaning it isn’t an AP issue it’s still a LS issue. He’s not immune to damage but her TK alone won’t bypass his durability if it cant physically compress him. While his superior stamina and defensive techniques mean he can still counterattack while resisting making this far less one sided than you say.

 

[Dalesean027]

Even if Headmaster struggles, LS still determines whether Kat's TK can actually restrain him. A higher LS means she has to focus more effort in keeping him contained rather than attacking freely. Just because she can move doesn’t mean she can do so effectively while maintaining control over someone stronger than her in LS. Also, "struggling" doesn’t mean he’s done for, it just means he’s resisting, making it harder for her to keep him restrained while dealing with his counters

Even if she herself couldn't move she would still be able to pelt him with anything else that was in range of her stasis field that got picked up as well so even if they were both struggling to move around, remember she doesn't need to gesture to do any of that so that'd still work out for her while his range of motion would still be extremely limited as well, still tho also he'd still be affecting by the AP of it she just tried launching him with the field.

Being in range doesnt mean he’s automatically damaged since LS and AP arent the same thing. If his LS is high enough to resist being thrown or crushed, then no KE is being transferred in a way that deals damage. She can spam projectiles, but Headmaster can still evade, deflect, or counterattack. If she splits focus between restraining him and attacking, that makes it easier for him to break free.

That's not how her stasis field works for one, she's not splitting focus for anything that's in it. Also like no one said he is instantly getting harmed, you said he would dodge, I'm saying there is nothing to dodge if he's in range he caught the moment she activates it to grab anything it just grabs whatever is in range which would include him hence my mention of starting distance

Crushing calculations assume something can be crushed in the first place, no? If LS is high enough the force doesn’t reach the bar needed to actually damage him meaning it isn’t an AP issue it’s still a LS issue. He’s not immune to damage but her TK alone won’t bypass his durability if it cant physically compress him. While his superior stamina and defensive techniques mean he can still counterattack while resisting making this far less one sided than you say.

No one said it bypasses durability he is just still would he harmed because of 3x AP of force still being applied to him

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Even if she herself couldn't move she would still be able to pelt him with anything else that was in range of her stasis field that got picked up as well so even if they were both struggling to move around, remember she doesn't need to gesture to do any of that so that'd still work out for her while his range of motion would still be extremely limited as well, still tho also he'd still be affecting by the AP of it she just tried launching him with the field.

I feel like this assumes her stasis field can apply force in a way that inherently means AP, no? As I said before, if Headmaster’s LS is enough to resist being thrown or crushed, then there's no KE that harms him. Struggling to move =/= being damaged. And his Hue Jin + stamina lets him keep countering while resisting. The fact that she can still attack doesn’t mean he's out of options, since he too can do that.

That's not how her stasis field works for one, she's not splitting focus for anything that's in it. Also like no one said he is instantly getting harmed, you said he would dodge, I'm saying there is nothing to dodge if he's in range he caught the moment she activates it to grab anything it just grabs whatever is in range which would include him hence my mention of starting distance

Whether or not she splits focus doesn’t change that resisting someone with comparable LS makes it harder to fight. If she keeps him in place, she also has to maintaining it, meaning he has an opportunity to resist and counter. Also, just because he’s in range when she uses it doesn’t mean he’s done for since his LS determines whether he can resist, meaning she can’t just control him easily.

No one said it bypasses durability he is just still would he harmed because of 3x AP of force still being applied to him

You're once again mixing AP with LS. Again, LS says whether he can be physically affected in the first place. If she can’t actually crush or throw him due to LS, then the AP doesn’t matter. The only way he takes damage is if she actually throws something at him,, not just from being affected by the field itself. Like, I don't even know where you suddenly got the idea TK automatically is AP?

 

[Hypertornado099]

You can't break out of Kat's TK with lifting, its gravity manipulation

I highly doubt you can use martial arts to hard counter all of her attacks. What is he gonna do to a kick from someone much stronger than him?

The whole Superhuman vs Peak Human stamina is BS. These things are arbitrary, we don't know how much more stamina the Headmaster has

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

You can't break out of Kat's TK with lifting, its gravity manipulation

But LS still applies here. Gravity manipulation applies force, and LS determines if someone can resist force base restraint. The gravity manip page also says LS can allow resistance unless extra context says otherwise:
"Please note that surviving or moving in increased gravity will not grant resistance to gravity manipulation, unless there is extra context demonstrating that it is not just a Lifting Strength feat."
tried to put it into quote but it keeps combining the entire text lol

I highly doubt you can use martial arts to hard counter all of her attacks. What is he gonna do to a kick from someone much stronger than him?

Headmaster’s Hua Jin explicitly allows him to redirect attacks as he continuously swings his arm, even from massive structures like the Genkaku (a 350m-long ship). A kick is far less impactful than that, even if stronger. If Kat tries to attack like that, he simply redirects or deflects it. After all, he was taking no damage from Boichiro Yamato, rather than redirecting his attacks but still taking "some damage."

The whole Superhuman vs Peak Human stamina is BS. These things are arbitrary, we don't know how much more stamina the Headmaster has

It’s not arbitrary. Headmaster has over a century’s worth of stamina stored up, and as a magician, he can continuously replenish his energy from the environment. IMO a pretty clear stamina advantage.

 

[Dalesean027]

"Please note that surviving or moving in increased gravity will not grant resistance to gravity manipulation, unless there is extra context demonstrating that it is not just a Lifting Strength feat."

This isn't saying what you think it is for you to highlight it like that lol

Its saying you don't get resistance for gravity manip for like being able to walk on a planet with 100x earth gravity

Headmaster’s Hua Jin explicitly allows him to redirect attacks as he continuously swings his arm, even from massive structures like the Genkaku (a 350m-long ship). A kick is far less impactful than that, even if stronger. If Kat tries to attack like that, he simply redirects or deflects it. After all, he was taking no damage from Boichiro Yamato, rather than redirecting his attacks but still taking "some damage."

Don't forget plenty of Kats attacks generate some sort of aoe shockwave or have high impact power her general movements with jupiter style just moving generates enough force to violently shatter large structures by just falling, flying, or sliding at them so even if he just made contact with her or is in proximity of her he would take that damage or get hit by one of the large shockwaves she would generate if he tries blocking and redirecting, there is no avoiding the AoE of that from point blank at speed equals even if he did like direct her to the ground or in a slightly different direction he'd get smacked by the blast

Even take a more obvious attack like a charged jupiter style gravity kick like this


From what you said he'd try and redirect it to get an opening on Kat and with an obvious move like this he I'd imagine have no trouble reacting and diverting her but he would be caught in the shockwave, even if she landed in his general area he'd get hit with the full force of her impact as even at the very ends of the shockwave it still carries that same full force as seen below



The thing with jupiter style is that its a AP and DC buff so the gap grows beyond the already over 3x stat gap, add in her charged attacks like this gravity kick and compressed debris ball that also are even stronger than her standard jupiter style attacks and generate shockwaves upon impact Headmaster should be getting hit with much more lethal impacts

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

This isn't saying what you think it is for you to highlight it like that lol

Its saying you don't get resistance for gravity manip for like being able to walk on a planet with 100x earth gravity

That’s not actually a counter to my point. That part says that LS can allow resistance unless extra context proves otherwise. You haven't provided such extra context showing that Headmaster’s LS wouldn’t let him resist Kat’s TK.

Don't forget plenty of Kats attacks generate some sort of aoe shockwave or have high impact power her general movements with jupiter style just moving generates enough force to violently shatter large structures by just falling, flying, or sliding at them so even if he just made contact with her or is in proximity of her he would take that damage or get hit by one of the large shockwaves she would generate if he tries blocking and redirecting, there is no avoiding the AoE of that from point blank at speed equals even if he did like direct her to the ground or in a slightly different direction he'd get smacked by the blast

Even take a more obvious attack like a charged jupiter style gravity kick like this

For starters, the shockwave only hits after she lands on the ground, or the target, in which case after she's been redirected it won't be as effective. Should also add that there's nothing stopping him from redirecting an attack, and counter attacking before the shockwave is created. The point of his fighting style is continuous movement to control the opponent’s positioning and also counter them. If he can change the trajectory of a Genkaku, which is 350 meters in length, without hitting him, then he'd have to trouble completely redirecting Kat's attacks.

From what you said he'd try and redirect it to get an opening on Kat and with an obvious move like this he I'd imagine have no trouble reacting and diverting her but he would be caught in the shockwave, even if she landed in his general area he'd get hit with the full force of her impact as even at the very ends of the shockwave it still carries that same full force as seen below



The thing with jupiter style is that its a AP and DC buff so the gap grows beyond the already over 3x stat gap, add in her charged attacks like this gravity kick and compressed debris ball that also are even stronger than her standard jupiter style attacks and generate shockwaves upon impact Headmaster should be getting hit with much more lethal impacts

Another way EP in DKD works by sensing the change in the air, (very first seen in the LN shows that even something as simple as flying moves the mana in the air) so he'd probably just see it coming and dodge. Also, quick question. Shockwaves follow inverse-square law, no? Meaning they weaken as they expand outward. Which would significantly reduce its strength. At worst he takes leftover damage rather than the full AP of the hit.

 

[Dalesean027]

That’s not actually a counter to my point. That part says that LS can allow resistance unless extra context proves otherwise. You haven't provided such extra context showing that Headmaster’s LS wouldn’t let him resist Kat’s TK.

There was no real point made there, you misunderstood what the page said and no one said he couldn't overpower her gravity manipulation he would just struggle greatly to do so due to how minor the gap is between the two

For starters, the shockwave only hits after she lands on the ground, or the target, in which case after she's been redirected it won't be as effective. Should also add that there's nothing stopping him from redirecting an attack, and counter attacking before the shockwave is created. The point of his fighting style is continuous movement to control the opponent’s positioning and also counter them. If he can change the trajectory of a Genkaku, which is 350 meters in length, without hitting him, then he'd have to trouble completely redirecting Kat's attacks.

Changing her trajectory and her landing anywhere near him would **** him up due to the shockwave, and you said he would take some damage regardless just from redirecting her, hell if he outright blocks he's still cooked too

As long as she makes impact with him or anything around him he is getting harmed.

EP in DKD works by sensing the change in the air, (very first seen in the LN shows that even something as simple as flying moves the mana in the air) so he'd probably just see it coming and dodge. Also, quick question. Shockwaves follow inverse-square law, no? Meaning they weaken as they expand outward. Which would significantly reduce its strength. At worst he takes leftover damage rather than the full AP of the hit

Normally that would be the case the scan in question shows that Kat's shockwaves even at the edge of their range still keeps the same force throughout even at its edge, thats how ISL works if the shockwave in question is still destroying shit even at its edge so he would still be very much harmed also though to he isn't dodging or escaping if she is anywhere near him at all if the directs her to the ground or anywhere near himself away from him the shockwave will hit

 

[Hypertornado099]

"Please note that surviving or moving in increased gravity will not grant resistance to gravity manipulation, unless there is extra context demonstrating that it is not just a Lifting Strength feat."

Kat's stasis field can make things float. She doesn't just use her gravity manipulation to crush things. You can't break out of an anti gravity field with LS

Headmaster’s Hua Jin explicitly allows him to redirect attacks as he continuously swings his arm, even from massive structures like the Genkaku (a 350m-long ship). A kick is far less impactful than that, even if stronger. If Kat tries to attack like that, he simply redirects or deflects it. After all, he was taking no damage from Boichiro Yamato, rather than redirecting his attacks but still taking "some damage."

Kat hits harder than a big ship lol. He's not gonna redirect something much stronger

It’s not arbitrary. Headmaster has over a century’s worth of stamina stored up, and as a magician, he can continuously replenish his energy from the environment. IMO a pretty clear stamina advantage.

Kat doesn't tend to get tired after a fight. This fight is not gonna end in Kat getting exhausted because she can finish the job quickly

I vote Kat

 

[Hypertornado099]

I do think that the Headmaster, with equal speed and enhanced senses, would be able to dodge Kat's attacks. However, he's being argued as mastering the art of deflecting blows which is why I think he would try to take at least 1 attack head on, and get hurt. I don't think he'd be untouchable however, especially since Kat has equal speed too and can dodge his hits.

Her Lunar Style allows her to track enemies, demonstrated here. The Headmaster would likely attempt to dodge the attack but if Kat is continuously tracking him, he's gonna get hit a few times. In Jupiter Style, one of her strongest attacks is a giant expanding black hole. Her regular attacks in Jupiter Style are strong enough to break objects her base form can't damage, so that's a pretty significant boost

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

There was no real point made there, you misunderstood what the page said and no one said he couldn't overpower her gravity manipulation he would just struggle greatly to do so due to how minor the gap is between the two

I feel like you're trying to shift the argument here a bit. At first you dismissed that LS would allow him to resist Gravity Manip, and now you're saying Headmaster "would struggle greatly" but not outright fail? The quote says LS can allow resistance unless extra context proves otherwise. You has not provided such extra evidence to show why Headmaster’s LS wouldn’t allow him to resist. If Headmaster has higher LS, even slightly, he still overpowers her TK-based gravity manip. That’s how LS scaling works—higher LS allows breaking out of force-based restraints.

Changing her trajectory and her landing anywhere near him would **** him up due to the shockwave, and you said he would take some damage regardless just from redirecting her, hell if he outright blocks he's still cooked too

As long as she makes impact with him or anything around him he is getting harmed.

I already pointed out that Kat’s shockwaves are created after she lands. This means Headmaster has a window of time to dodge before the shockwave fully spreads. That's not even mentioning it getting canceled if Kat gets surprised at this sudden shift in trajectory. Even if she lands, he can move her to an area where the shockwave won’t be as effective. He’s not just standing still, waiting to get hit.

Normally that would be the case the scan in question shows that Kat's shockwaves even at the edge of their range still keeps the same force throughout even at its edge, thats how ISL works if the shockwave in question is still destroying shit even at its edge so he would still be very much harmed also though to he isn't dodging or escaping if she is anywhere near him at all if the directs her to the ground or anywhere near himself away from him the shockwave will hit

Except that doesn't prove they aren't weakened. They can keep their AOE, but would lose their damage, unless stated otherwise. If they do retain their full power, then I'd like an explanation for why they behave that way in-verse. Otherwise, like any other shockwave, they would lose damage.

Kat's stasis field can make things float. She doesn't just use her gravity manipulation to crush things. You can't break out of an anti gravity field with LS

LS doesn’t just counter crushing force, it applies to any force that restricts movement, including being lifted or held in place. Not to mention him countering the Magic, such as mana. Since you're claiming LS wouldn’t help, then you need to prove that Kat’s field works in a way that bypasses physical force altogether.

Kat hits harder than a big ship lol. He's not gonna redirect something much stronger

That doesn’t automatically mean her attacks are harder to redirect. Afterall, she weights like normal, no? Basically, if he can redirect massive, far heavier objects, then redirecting Kat wouldn't be a problem. Hue Jin doesn't rely on stopping power. Also, redirecting doesn't necessarily require overpowering force.

Kat doesn't tend to get tired after a fight. This fight is not gonna end in Kat getting exhausted because she can finish the job quickly

Just because Kat doesn’t "tend to get tired" doesn’t mean she has infinite stamina or that Headmaster doesn’t have a clear-cut advantage.

I do think that the Headmaster, with equal speed and enhanced senses, would be able to dodge Kat's attacks. However, he's being argued as mastering the art of deflecting blows which is why I think he would try to take at least 1 attack head on, and get hurt. I don't think he'd be untouchable however, especially since Kat has equal speed too and can dodge his hits.

Mastering deflection and redirection don’t mean he has to get hit, it means he’s skilled at controlling an opponent’s attack patterns. Also, speed being equal doesn’t mean skill is equal. Headmaster has a century of experience, meaning he’s better at reading movement and anticipating attacks.

Her Lunar Style allows her to track enemies, demonstrated here. The Headmaster would likely attempt to dodge the attack but if Kat is continuously tracking him, he's gonna get hit a few times. In Jupiter Style, one of her strongest attacks is a giant expanding black hole. Her regular attacks in Jupiter Style are strong enough to break objects her base form can't damage, so that's a pretty significant boost

Just because Kat can track an enemy doesn’t mean she’s guaranteed to land. So, no, he'd just keep dodging or redirect them or destroy them with mana balls. As for the black hole, he'd just create a hologram and avoid it entirely. I feel like I already debunk this point a while back.

 

[Dalesean027]

feel like you're trying to shift the argument here a bit. At first you dismissed that LS would allow him to resist Gravity Manip, and now you're saying Headmaster "would struggle greatly" but not outright fail? The quote says LS can allow resistance unless extra context proves otherwise. You has not provided such extra evidence to show why Headmaster’s LS wouldn’t allow him to resist. If Headmaster has higher LS, even slightly, he still overpowers her TK-based gravity manip. That’s how LS scaling works—higher LS allows breaking out of force-based restraints.

The argument hasn't shifted at all go back and read what I've said each time, we've said always that their LS is not far apart its minimal difference so he would still struggle to greatly even if he could work to overpower it, they are relative even if he is slightly higher so im genuinely no sure what you're confused about, he'd still very much have to strain even if he's stronger since its not rhat big of a gap I've said this like a dozen times now so idk why you're saying im shifting

I already pointed out that Kat’s shockwaves are created after she lands. This means Headmaster has a window of time to dodge before the shockwave fully spreads. That's not even mentioning i getting canceled if Kat gets surprised at this sudden shift in trajectory. Even if she lands, he can move her to an area where the shockwave won’t be as effective. He’s not just standing still, waiting to get hit.

If she hits ground or her target, him blocking or redircting will get him harmed. Just turning her a different direction or angle is stopping the attack though Kat has lots of resistance to being knocked out of her attacks with jupiter style so its very doubtful he'd be able to actually stop the kick at all outside of redirecting it somewhere else which if close will whack with the shockwave. You yourself have said several times he'd in character try and redirect her to find an opening to attack so its not like if he does redirect her that he'd let her be out of his melee range and drop his attack if he thought he had a chance so chances are he'd let her land close expecting to counter but being smacked by the shockwave if her impact which would greatly harm him since the gap in AP would easily be well over the 3x gap of her standard AP difference already

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Apologies for the late response, been studying for exams in the upcoming weeks. My responses will be slightly more delayed than before.

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The argument hasn't shifted at all go back and read what I've said each time, we've said always that their LS is not far apart its minimal difference so he would still struggle to greatly even if he could work to overpower it, they are relative even if he is slightly higher so im genuinely no sure what you're confused about, he'd still very much have to strain even if he's stronger since its not rhat big of a gap I've said this like a dozen times now so idk why you're saying im shifting

This doesn't work since that's not how force based restraints work. LS determines whether a character can break out of TK gravity manip, and even a small difference in Headmasters favor means he will overpower it anyway. Struggling does not mean failing. It simply means effort is required, but the restraint itself ultimately fails. You keep trying to bring up a small difference in a way that seems like it's completely over, yet you have to prove it won't be effective in him breaking out. Relative =/= equal after all. A slight but clear advantage in LS is still an advantage, and when it comes to overcoming a LS abilities, even a small difference is enough to make sure Headmaster can break free.

If she hits ground or her target, him blocking or redircting will get him harmed. Just turning her a different direction or angle is stopping the attack though Kat has lots of resistance to being knocked out of her attacks with jupiter style so its very doubtful he'd be able to actually stop the kick at all outside of redirecting it somewhere else which if close will whack with the shockwave. You yourself have said several times he'd in character try and redirect her to find an opening to attack so its not like if he does redirect her that he'd let her be out of his melee range and drop his attack if he thought he had a chance so chances are he'd let her land close expecting to counter but being smacked by the shockwave if her impact which would greatly harm him since the gap in AP would easily be well over the 3x gap of her standard AP difference already

This just kind of assumes that if Kat lands an attack, the shockwave will automatically harm Headmaster, but it still ignores the fact that shockwaves take time to spread, giving Headmaster a reaction window. (and also, the fact that there's no reason she wouldn't be interrupted completely post-redirection, as Hua Jin leaves you completely defensles and unable to do anything, maybe run away.) But anyway, since the shockwave forms after impact, Headmaster, who has EP and superior combat skill, has the ability to dodge before it spreads. To add on, the effectiveness of the shockwave is heavily dependent on Kat’s positioning, so if he just 90 degrees her so she flies away it will not be effective lol. Headmaster can manipulate the fight to ensure that even if Kat hits the ground, he is not in an area where the shockwave is most damaging—if at all. Also, the idea that Jupiter Style prevents Kat from being knocked out of attacks also does not negate redirection. While Jupiter Style improves her ability to keep momentum, it doesn't make her immune to having her trajectory being altered AFAIK. Headmaster’s fighting style don't rely on just stopping her momentum but rather on precise redirection, that even if she remains in motion, she is not striking where she planned. Lastly, the assumption that AP guarantees the shockwave’s effectiveness is a bit flawed IMO. AP only matters if the attack lands as intended, and Headmaster’s ability to control positioning directly interferes with that.

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Sorry for the long wall of text, wanted to make sure I cover everything here. Sometimes I get confused in drawn-out conversations.

 

[Dalesean027]

This doesn't work since that's not how force based restraints work. LS determines whether a character can break out of TK gravity manip, and even a small difference in Headmasters favor means he will overpower it anyway. Struggling does not mean failing. It simply means effort is required, but the restraint itself ultimately fails. You keep trying to bring up a small difference in a way that seems like it's completely over, yet you have to prove it won't be effective in him breaking out. Relative =/= equal after all. A slight but clear advantage in LS is still an advantage, and when it comes to overcoming a LS abilities, even a small difference is enough to make sure Headmaster can break free.

Never said struggling means he fails, I've literally always said he would get through it eventually but its because he will struggle with it that Kat has more openings since even if you were to say she'd have to focus in him she could still pelt him with all of her projectiles that are already in her stasis field while she attempts to hold him back which he couldn't do anything about since his momentum will be hindered a lot as he tries powering through hence me saying several times now in this scenario we've already established Kat does not need to gesture to launch stuff at him with her stasis field so she'd be able to launch stuff at him

This just kind of assumes that if Kat lands an attack, the shockwave will automatically harm Headmaster, but it still ignores the fact that shockwaves take time to spread, giving Headmaster a reaction window. (and also, the fact that there's no reason she wouldn't be interrupted completely post-redirection, as Hua Jin leaves you completely defensles and unable to do anything, maybe run away.) But anyway, since the shockwave forms after impact, Headmaster, who has EP and superior combat skill, has the ability to dodge before it spreads.

There is no reaction window when you yourself have said time and time again he redirects you to another direction to give himself an opening to counterattack he would by all rights be trying to capitalize on have successfully redirecting her if he did and go in for a attack, he has no prior knowledge of shockwave generation so he's not randomly throwing her out of his range of attack when thats not in character and he can only react to the shockwave after she impacts either him (if she hits him directly and he opts to block instead of redirect he is cooked regardless) or the ground both cases where he has no reason to without prior knowledge just throw her up like 90 degrees as you said or even try and turn her all the way around

AP only matters if the attack lands as intended, and Headmaster’s ability to control positioning directly interferes with that.

This is only if you assume he has prior knowledge and doesn't ever attempt to counterattack like you said he otherwise would in character, and knew the range of the attack or that it would even generate a shockwave to begin with as he can only react after the fact when it hits and he was already going in for a counter in which case he's caught.
You're heavily relying on the assumption that he just knows all of Kat's kit and will react to every single thing in a way where he just knows what everything will do, its range, and what is best in every single moment to never be touched by anything all and thats just not realistic here so I'll just leave it to votes now

 

[Hypertornado099]

LS doesn’t just counter crushing force, it applies to any force that restricts movement, including being lifted or held in place. Not to mention him countering the Magic, such as mana. Since you're claiming LS wouldn’t help, then you need to prove that Kat’s field works in a way that bypasses physical force altogether.

You can't bypass a field of anti gravity with LS. There isn't any force to break out of

That doesn’t automatically mean her attacks are harder to redirect. Afterall, she weights like normal, no? Basically, if he can redirect massive, far heavier objects, then redirecting Kat wouldn't be a problem. Hue Jin doesn't rely on stopping power. Also, redirecting doesn't necessarily require overpowering force.

His attempts to deflect will get overpowered though. You also act like he's untouchable because of this, Headmaster isn't gonna attempt to deflect every single attack

Just because Kat doesn’t "tend to get tired" doesn’t mean she has infinite stamina or that Headmaster doesn’t have a clear-cut advantage.

Onus is on you to prove Kat will get tired here

Just because Kat can track an enemy doesn’t mean she’s guaranteed to land. So, no, he'd just keep dodging or redirect them or destroy them with mana balls. As for the black hole, he'd just create a hologram and avoid it entirely. I feel like I already debunk this point a while back.

Do you think he's gonna dodge every single homing attack Kat uses? He won't be able to fight back if that's the case, which doesn't help him.

He's not gonna avoid an AOE attack with an illusion