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Haxed Characters In-Depth: Beyond the Text Wall
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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- hax
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That shitty isekai anime didn't deserve it so Never ever ever Never ever be created.
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I like it.
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- Thread starter
- #124
I'm sorryThe God Of Procrastination said:
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About what?
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That you like Smartphone Isekai ovo
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How are you responsible for that?
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- Thread starter
- #128
Forget it. Joke didn't have intended effect.
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Kepekley23 said:
You forget about Mystery Dungeon. Most notably Mew from SPMD or Darkrai from EoT/D/S. The former is literally your partner throughout the entirety of the game without knowledge from either of you, which turns out to be an incredibly important piece for the plot later on, and Darkrai turns out to be a grand manipulator behind the scenes, attempting to thrust the world into darkness, even after you go through the whole Primal Dialga side of things.
At the very least, those game have some very good personalities for their Legendaries.
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Being Haxxy is also less of an issue the less central the character is, or if they are important but not focused on their powers, or if they are villiains, some positions actually sometimes needs the character to be powerful
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This video takes some insight regarding good and bad decisions when making an OP character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz3dBaUh9PU
A note though: While he is very critical, he says is okay to like the characters mentioned and such, so no offense or anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz3dBaUh9PU
A note though: While he is very critical, he says is okay to like the characters mentioned and such, so no offense or anything.
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I have some counterpoints to it.
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- Thread starter
- #133
Elaborate?
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Smartphone's lack of plot makes it highly unpredictable.
Touya Mochizuki's lack of goals technically makes him very unique.
As a competent person, I relate to Touya more than, for example, Satou Kazuma.
Compared to something like My Hero Academia, it is arguably more honest (about it's characters, and what will happen to them).
Touya Mochizuki's lack of goals technically makes him very unique.
As a competent person, I relate to Touya more than, for example, Satou Kazuma.
Compared to something like My Hero Academia, it is arguably more honest (about it's characters, and what will happen to them).
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Hmm, since I haven't seen that series I can't really comment much on it, but thinking about what the video brought up (so if any of the stuff I mention is incorrect or fixed later, let me know):
I don't think unpredictability is a plus necessarily, especially if the uses of the artifact are to give sudden powers or solve situations with little explanation, it would feel more like a copout if anything. IMHO unpredictability is good when it affects the plot as a whole or can take the story in different directions, while linking with established aspects with new twists, not just pulling something out of nowhere or just fixing the plot.
I think the issue with Touya isn't just the lack of a goal, but the lack of a substance as a character. Kinda... why is he there? Why is he the main character? Why is the focus on him? Why should we care about his journey? Etc. Is not simply because uncertainity about what he wants, as much as he seems to be just there and there is little exploration of his character. And there's also the issue that characters without set goals are dime a dozen, heroes with no actual dreams are many. But they do have something that moves them and lets the viewer know why are there. Which is what the vid criticizes about Touya.
The issue with Touya, from what I get, is not that he's competent but rather blatantly overpowered and, for the lack of a better word... "overprivilegied" by the story. And there are many issues with him in this regard. The issue is that the story goes out of its way to show off Touya and how cool he is, hurting characterization, side characters and other aspects in the process, when that happens it is an issue. I'd say it goes in hand with what I said about a character needing good chemistry with his story? Touya being OP by itself isn't the issue, in the proper story he could work well; while on the other hand, Kazuma works as a main character because his story is a parody that pulls the leg of the genre constantly and takes the advantage of his shortcomings for its humor. However, if KonoSuba was a serious or dramatic story and we were expected to take Kazuma as the hero at face value, he wouldn't work.
You can have a very competent character that aces many things, but you need to play some sort of shortcoming or conflict to make them interesting.
To give an example: Mamoru Takamura from Hajime no Ippo is blatantly the most powerful boxer in the story. Everybody is in a more or less realistic level while Takamura KOed a bear and nobody in the cast can do much as touch him. All his fights have him one shot his opponents, and even his weight control which the story states weakens him, barely slows him down, and he's stated to be a genius that blends violence and technique perfectly and could have reached the world title with any trainer, because he's that good. How does he work? For starters he isn't the main character. Second, he works his butt out training and we see in detail how hellish his regime is and how much he struggles with his weight control, which gives a more human side to his apparently easy career, he had ungodly talent, but he worked damn hard to polish it as much as he could; he's a genius boxer, but the guy isn't good at anything else, so when things easen up he is a good source of humor; he has a very lively and egotistical personality that makes him stand out, argues with his friends, cracks jokes, is a bully, cares for his teammates, and is so over the top he's hilarious; and finally, when he finally reaches the World class fights, he comes across other world level fighters and his fights stop being so easy and we he tests his mettle against fighters as gifted as him and even more skilled.
The issues with Touya's OP status are many: his abilities weren't developed or attained, but given away; said abilities are beyond the rules of the story and seem like a mishmash of cool stuff for Touya to have; he eclipses everybody else in his team and the focus remain on him; characters seem to have little purpose aside beign "Touya's something"; he doesn't have a challenge of sorts to make his conflict something to invest yourself into; the story makes sure Touya keeps being unique and special, meaning everyone else is left aside. It really feels Touya wasn't made as a character but simply as a vessel for fulfillment.
The final issue is his status as an escapist character. Power fantasies, wish fulfillment and escapism are all right, they have always been a part of fiction. However, the issue with some Isekais and modern media is how they try to cash into that and disregard everything else of the story. A character being relatable doesn't necesarily mean it's well written, simply means it strikes a chord with the audience. Now, a character could be well very written and beloved because people identify with him, no problem. All I am saying is that both things aren't mutually exclusive or inclusive. And to be honest, making a character easy for anime fans to identify with is pretty much a basic in general; with modern Isekai, is the reason why most Isekai MC are nerdy guys into anime/manga or videogames that end up in JRPG themed worlds.
This reminds me of something I read once called the Coca Cola Formula. It essentially described how you can make a work successful by knowing how to appeal different audiences by knowing what plot points, characters and story types were popular among them. It wasn't a critique or didn't talk bad of it, but it raised the point. An interesting read.
Once gain, thanks if you endured all my nonsense.
I don't think unpredictability is a plus necessarily, especially if the uses of the artifact are to give sudden powers or solve situations with little explanation, it would feel more like a copout if anything. IMHO unpredictability is good when it affects the plot as a whole or can take the story in different directions, while linking with established aspects with new twists, not just pulling something out of nowhere or just fixing the plot.
I think the issue with Touya isn't just the lack of a goal, but the lack of a substance as a character. Kinda... why is he there? Why is he the main character? Why is the focus on him? Why should we care about his journey? Etc. Is not simply because uncertainity about what he wants, as much as he seems to be just there and there is little exploration of his character. And there's also the issue that characters without set goals are dime a dozen, heroes with no actual dreams are many. But they do have something that moves them and lets the viewer know why are there. Which is what the vid criticizes about Touya.
The issue with Touya, from what I get, is not that he's competent but rather blatantly overpowered and, for the lack of a better word... "overprivilegied" by the story. And there are many issues with him in this regard. The issue is that the story goes out of its way to show off Touya and how cool he is, hurting characterization, side characters and other aspects in the process, when that happens it is an issue. I'd say it goes in hand with what I said about a character needing good chemistry with his story? Touya being OP by itself isn't the issue, in the proper story he could work well; while on the other hand, Kazuma works as a main character because his story is a parody that pulls the leg of the genre constantly and takes the advantage of his shortcomings for its humor. However, if KonoSuba was a serious or dramatic story and we were expected to take Kazuma as the hero at face value, he wouldn't work.
You can have a very competent character that aces many things, but you need to play some sort of shortcoming or conflict to make them interesting.
To give an example: Mamoru Takamura from Hajime no Ippo is blatantly the most powerful boxer in the story. Everybody is in a more or less realistic level while Takamura KOed a bear and nobody in the cast can do much as touch him. All his fights have him one shot his opponents, and even his weight control which the story states weakens him, barely slows him down, and he's stated to be a genius that blends violence and technique perfectly and could have reached the world title with any trainer, because he's that good. How does he work? For starters he isn't the main character. Second, he works his butt out training and we see in detail how hellish his regime is and how much he struggles with his weight control, which gives a more human side to his apparently easy career, he had ungodly talent, but he worked damn hard to polish it as much as he could; he's a genius boxer, but the guy isn't good at anything else, so when things easen up he is a good source of humor; he has a very lively and egotistical personality that makes him stand out, argues with his friends, cracks jokes, is a bully, cares for his teammates, and is so over the top he's hilarious; and finally, when he finally reaches the World class fights, he comes across other world level fighters and his fights stop being so easy and we he tests his mettle against fighters as gifted as him and even more skilled.
The issues with Touya's OP status are many: his abilities weren't developed or attained, but given away; said abilities are beyond the rules of the story and seem like a mishmash of cool stuff for Touya to have; he eclipses everybody else in his team and the focus remain on him; characters seem to have little purpose aside beign "Touya's something"; he doesn't have a challenge of sorts to make his conflict something to invest yourself into; the story makes sure Touya keeps being unique and special, meaning everyone else is left aside. It really feels Touya wasn't made as a character but simply as a vessel for fulfillment.
The final issue is his status as an escapist character. Power fantasies, wish fulfillment and escapism are all right, they have always been a part of fiction. However, the issue with some Isekais and modern media is how they try to cash into that and disregard everything else of the story. A character being relatable doesn't necesarily mean it's well written, simply means it strikes a chord with the audience. Now, a character could be well very written and beloved because people identify with him, no problem. All I am saying is that both things aren't mutually exclusive or inclusive. And to be honest, making a character easy for anime fans to identify with is pretty much a basic in general; with modern Isekai, is the reason why most Isekai MC are nerdy guys into anime/manga or videogames that end up in JRPG themed worlds.
This reminds me of something I read once called the Coca Cola Formula. It essentially described how you can make a work successful by knowing how to appeal different audiences by knowing what plot points, characters and story types were popular among them. It wasn't a critique or didn't talk bad of it, but it raised the point. An interesting read.
Once gain, thanks if you endured all my nonsense.
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Weight control?
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Ah, sorry. Takamura, IIRC, is around 1.90 mts (6,2 or so) so his natural weight is that of a heavyweight boxer. However, during the period the story is set at least (the 90s) Japan has very little notability in the higher weight classes, so Takamura must lose weight to fit into Middleweight class (4 classes below his natural weight, from over 90 kg to a little over 72 kg) in order to just find himself in a circuit to fight in the first place. This is in contrast to Ippo and his gym mates whose classes fit with their natural weight or require a much less strict weight loss.
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One thing that I forgot to mention, Smartphone is fairly easy on my chronic hero syndrome.
I'd argue that Smartphone does "unpredictable" well, it goes through multiple different storylines, and all of them were fairly enjoyable.
I'd argue that Smartphone does "unpredictable" well, it goes through multiple different storylines, and all of them were fairly enjoyable.
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Ah, my bad. I misunderstood you. When you said unpredictable I thought you meant the titular artifact did "unpredictable" things to move the story along (which is what I meant it could easily be mishandled). But if you meant as there is no grand overreaching story, then I actually agree in many ways, that in itself is not bad and can actually work out quite well. Short, lighthearted storylines can be a pretty solid format to work with.
Regarding unpredictability, I can't speak for Smartphone due to my lack of familiarity with the story, but I do insist that it is a risky move with great payoff or consequences whether it's done well or not.
Easy on my chronic hero syndrome? Sorry, I am bit lost here? >_>;
Regarding unpredictability, I can't speak for Smartphone due to my lack of familiarity with the story, but I do insist that it is a risky move with great payoff or consequences whether it's done well or not.
Easy on my chronic hero syndrome? Sorry, I am bit lost here? >_>;
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https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChronicHeroSyndrome
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This thread needs to be revived properly.
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I agree. I wrote out some stuff about I/O on my wall for Cal, so he could get a feel for the verse. Perhaps I should copy and paste some of that here
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
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Oh yeah Cal have you gotten around to reading any of the ahriman books yet?
Without spoiling stuff I can say that the fact that the profile represents him at his peak when he's not trying to deny his powers changes a lot from how he works in those.
Without spoiling stuff I can say that the fact that the profile represents him at his peak when he's not trying to deny his powers changes a lot from how he works in those.
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I think that in general we can have an interesting discussion on characters for their depth and history and personality as opposed to "This guy has a huge power-level guys"
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
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Cal specifically banned most of my characters because I've already explained them but if anyone else wants stuff I can copypaste over old things I've typed.
In particular I found that the story of Oryx is a lot more interesting and in some ways sad than I was expecting.
In particular I found that the story of Oryx is a lot more interesting and in some ways sad than I was expecting.
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- Thread starter
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I'm glad multiple people like the idea of this thread. Makes me happy that it wasn't just me being "Oh grr hax" (as that wasn't my intent this time) and that I actually made a good thread.
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Yeah, that's nice on you.
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@Cal: Well, your disdain on overly haxed characters isn't that unfounded. There are a lot of characters that just pile up every cheap power the author can think of just to make them better than the rest. However, many times the verse itself is what has lots of tricks due to its mechanics and the characters blend well in them despite them having too much power, or the main conflict can't be solved with the characters powers so his abilities fall short anyways. It really depends on how well things compose it's total, to put it somehow.
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Bump
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- #151
?
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I need some help (don't worry, I will come up with something relevant to this thread).
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I'll talk about Simo since he's one of the only choices I have for this thread.
So we know who Simon is, a testoterone filled mech driver who gets the moon as a ship and upgrades to a bigger ride the same day. He can also bend probability
He didn't start as this, he started as a timid boy with nothing to speak of except a talent for drilling. He was alongside many others forced to live underground and never saw the sun, and because of his personality never even attempted to. But a friend of his was not as submissive to his situation and gave it his all trying to reach the surface. He was Kamina and he would pull Simon into his escape attempts because he needed his talent in drilling.
Simon was the person who had the skills to reach higher, but without determination that meant nothing. Kamina is the other side of the coin someone with determination and an unwavering spirit but not the means. This is reflected very well by Simon's backstory where Simon and Kamina were trapped and it was up to Simon to dig out of the situation, Kamina urged him to do his best and assured him everything would be fine, but Kamina would have actually been helpless without Simon and the confidence he showed here was mostly a facade. Without confidence and a sense of hope actual ability would be put to waste and without ability simple confidence won't save you.
Simon grew a lot over the series. He began as a 9-A and jumped all the way to high 1-C. But that change in physical strength wasn't the important part, it was the change in Simon's attitude. Simon lived in the shadow of Kamina and never believed himself to be as valuable to others as he was. When the "sad thing" happened he would find that others actually shared this sentiment. No one believed in him when he was at his lowest moments, no one trusted him to pull himself out of his sadness and move forward. He was just a sad kid who was useless to his comrades in a time of war.
But, ultimately he managed to rise above this and declared his strength and resolve to the world simultaneously coming to terms with the "sad thing". He never looked back after that moment and continued to make achievements after achievements.
What I like about Gurren Lagann is that it wasn't a show about working hard and gaining the power to conquer the obstacles in your way. It was about already having that power, it was about recognizing your own worth and how the qualities you possess can change the world if you allow them to. There are many individuals who can do so much for the people around them but when they make light of what they can achieve, that isn't possible. Simon represents the potential of such people, his character progression tells the story of how someone looked past such a clouded self perception and became a person who can tell probability itself to screw right off and decide his future for himself
So we know who Simon is, a testoterone filled mech driver who gets the moon as a ship and upgrades to a bigger ride the same day. He can also bend probability
He didn't start as this, he started as a timid boy with nothing to speak of except a talent for drilling. He was alongside many others forced to live underground and never saw the sun, and because of his personality never even attempted to. But a friend of his was not as submissive to his situation and gave it his all trying to reach the surface. He was Kamina and he would pull Simon into his escape attempts because he needed his talent in drilling.
Simon was the person who had the skills to reach higher, but without determination that meant nothing. Kamina is the other side of the coin someone with determination and an unwavering spirit but not the means. This is reflected very well by Simon's backstory where Simon and Kamina were trapped and it was up to Simon to dig out of the situation, Kamina urged him to do his best and assured him everything would be fine, but Kamina would have actually been helpless without Simon and the confidence he showed here was mostly a facade. Without confidence and a sense of hope actual ability would be put to waste and without ability simple confidence won't save you.
Simon grew a lot over the series. He began as a 9-A and jumped all the way to high 1-C. But that change in physical strength wasn't the important part, it was the change in Simon's attitude. Simon lived in the shadow of Kamina and never believed himself to be as valuable to others as he was. When the "sad thing" happened he would find that others actually shared this sentiment. No one believed in him when he was at his lowest moments, no one trusted him to pull himself out of his sadness and move forward. He was just a sad kid who was useless to his comrades in a time of war.
But, ultimately he managed to rise above this and declared his strength and resolve to the world simultaneously coming to terms with the "sad thing". He never looked back after that moment and continued to make achievements after achievements.
What I like about Gurren Lagann is that it wasn't a show about working hard and gaining the power to conquer the obstacles in your way. It was about already having that power, it was about recognizing your own worth and how the qualities you possess can change the world if you allow them to. There are many individuals who can do so much for the people around them but when they make light of what they can achieve, that isn't possible. Simon represents the potential of such people, his character progression tells the story of how someone looked past such a clouded self perception and became a person who can tell probability itself to screw right off and decide his future for himself
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>>talent for drilling
That sounds wrong in so many levels. OwO
That sounds wrong in so many levels. OwO
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
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So I've actually ended up talking about this quite a lot. The following post is copied from another thread, and it covers the chaos God's, drachnyen, and Oryx.
Before Cal brings up that he's banned my dudes I'll point out I didn't really explain the chaos gods to him beyond "well they're Gods and fundamental concepts ofc nothing can really defeat them". This goes more in depth. So ha.
The Gods of Chaos
So, Warhammer 40,000 isn't exactly the friendliest franchise. Nobody can really be considered a sole "good" faction, but Chaos is one of the more clearly malevolent ones. It is also much of what I find most fascinating about the verse, and nothing exemplifies this more than the gods. Each God is some sort of abstract concept, with Khorne being war/rage, Tzeentch being change, Nurgle being decay, and Slaanesh being pleasure/desire. What I like about them is that Chaos was born from the gestalt consciousness of organisms in verse (let's not argue warp semantics on this thread lol) as like it or not, these are emotions and concepts we all partake in regardless of morality. When we look at chaos, we are in a sense, looking at ourselves. Chaos is a reflection of the more basal, primal self, and them being held back by the Emperor, in essence a Chaos God of Order, is representative of how our conscious mind must constantly maintain and suppress our more basic desires, lest our conduct degenerate entirely. The entire verse dynamic is representative of the human mind, in a way.You've even got depressio.
What it is important to remember is that the CGs aren't purely "negative" emotions. For example:
Let's take the Emperor, and dissect him in a similar way:
While we're talking about the Emperor, let's move on to
Drach'nye
Drach is an incredibly powerful daemon of chaos in general rather than one specific god, who hurt The Emperor himself and made him feel fear. To explain this through Warhammer symbolism, Drach as an unaligned daemon of chaos in essence represents all of the CG aspects, that is to say, the unconscious emotional mind as a while. It impaling the Emperor and causing him to feel fear represents our realization on our natures and how even this ideal is not immune to raw emotion. The fact that the Emperor found himself unable to kill Drach and instead had to seal it is also significant, being an allegory for how we cannot truly destroy our inner demons, and can only attempt to suppress them, as they are an integral part of what makes us us, like it or not. There's more Drach related symbolism stuff, but honestly a lot of the fun with stuff like this is reading and interpreting for yourself.
Oryx, the Taken King
Now Oryx I quite like for several reasons.
Firstly, his motivations are eerily similar to those of the PC. One reason he came to the Solar System is that you sorta murdered his son Crota, then also ruined his funeral. Even from a human perspective, being mad that someone murdered your son is perfectly understandable, and many people could justify violence in such a situation. However, it also interestingly parallels what happens later in Forsaken, when Cayde-6 dies. Just like Oryx, the PC goes on a tear throughout the Solar System, killing anything in their way to get a shot at the perpetrator. Only difference there is that Oryx didn't succeed in avenging his son. Oryx is actually a quite good father in general. Read about his parenting here.
The second reason for Oryx's behavior in general is at its most basic level, the desire to grow stronger. Per Oryx's morality (which will warp reality), if something is killed, it did not deserve to live in the first place, as it is weak. Existence is a constant struggle for the right to exist, and as such one must constantly accrue power and assert that they have the right to exist. This is why Oryx has been on a tear through the universe for billions of years, annihilating species and systems. He simply thinks its the only moral thing to do to make sure that only stuff that deserves to exist does, and in doing so constantly makes sure that he is still deserving of this privilege. When you kill him, his final thoughts are anguish at not being able to avenge his son, but also understanding that he died because he was weak, and as such the PC deserved to win. In killing him, they assert their existence, and that is good. Now, he did expect you to take up his mantle so he could live on forever, constantly correcting his killer as they constantly correct him, which you didn't do, but this is similar to just the general mindset of a player of this type of game. You go out and kill things to get stronger and stronger gear to drop, then kill other players in PVP to prove that you're better and deserving of not being killed by them. While Hive morality may seem abhorrent, upon closer inspection, does the guardian not tread that closer than human morality?Not even gonna get into how the PC starves children rn that is for another comment
Oryx also has a huge impact on the universe of Destiny. Him destroying the Cabal in the Solar System caused the entire empire to invade and take the Traveller from the Guardians, him nearly destroying the Vex caused them to work even harder at perfecting their science so such a close call could never happen again resulting in Curse of Osiris, his arrival resulted in the reawakening of warmind Rasputin, and his death made his sister, Savathun, spring into action herself, causing basically all of the Forsaken DLC.
I also love how huge a jump in power he is from most of the verse, and how that's made very clear in verse. I mean, just look at his profile, but everyone in verse has similar reactions. Crota considers his dad as extremely powerful and a good model to aspire to, the Vex in all their nigh omniscience couldn't forsee any way where they would defeat Oryx, Oryx caused the Cabal, a race with no word for failure, to send a distress beaco, Rasputin thought he was The Darkness itself, The Nine went into a frenzy when he Took an Ahamkara (Godlike wish granting dragon-worms), hell even in his own race he breaks the rules. He killed a god supposedly unfathomably above him, and for it The Darkness was impressed to the extent that it lets Oryx channel its strength directly.
Before Cal brings up that he's banned my dudes I'll point out I didn't really explain the chaos gods to him beyond "well they're Gods and fundamental concepts ofc nothing can really defeat them". This goes more in depth. So ha.
The Gods of Chaos
So, Warhammer 40,000 isn't exactly the friendliest franchise. Nobody can really be considered a sole "good" faction, but Chaos is one of the more clearly malevolent ones. It is also much of what I find most fascinating about the verse, and nothing exemplifies this more than the gods. Each God is some sort of abstract concept, with Khorne being war/rage, Tzeentch being change, Nurgle being decay, and Slaanesh being pleasure/desire. What I like about them is that Chaos was born from the gestalt consciousness of organisms in verse (let's not argue warp semantics on this thread lol) as like it or not, these are emotions and concepts we all partake in regardless of morality. When we look at chaos, we are in a sense, looking at ourselves. Chaos is a reflection of the more basal, primal self, and them being held back by the Emperor, in essence a Chaos God of Order, is representative of how our conscious mind must constantly maintain and suppress our more basic desires, lest our conduct degenerate entirely. The entire verse dynamic is representative of the human mind, in a way.
What it is important to remember is that the CGs aren't purely "negative" emotions. For example:
- While Khorne does represent death, war, violence, and many others, Khorne also is strength, honor, and pride.
- Tzeentch represents multiple things that aren't really tied to morality, such as change, planning, hope, envy, and magic.
- While Nurgle represents death, disease, and decay, it also ends up representing endurance, healing, and even life. Death is a necessary aspect for the cycle of life to continue after all, with old things decaying to make way for the new life to sprout.
- While Slaanesh covers depravity, degeneracy, and debauchery, it also includes more general concepts of beauty, love, and desire.
Let's take the Emperor, and dissect him in a similar way:
- While the Emperor stands for Humanity, order, and expansion, He also ends up representing stagnation, religious zealotry, fascism, and many other ails.
While we're talking about the Emperor, let's move on to
Drach'nye
Drach is an incredibly powerful daemon of chaos in general rather than one specific god, who hurt The Emperor himself and made him feel fear. To explain this through Warhammer symbolism, Drach as an unaligned daemon of chaos in essence represents all of the CG aspects, that is to say, the unconscious emotional mind as a while. It impaling the Emperor and causing him to feel fear represents our realization on our natures and how even this ideal is not immune to raw emotion. The fact that the Emperor found himself unable to kill Drach and instead had to seal it is also significant, being an allegory for how we cannot truly destroy our inner demons, and can only attempt to suppress them, as they are an integral part of what makes us us, like it or not. There's more Drach related symbolism stuff, but honestly a lot of the fun with stuff like this is reading and interpreting for yourself.
Oryx, the Taken King
Now Oryx I quite like for several reasons.
Firstly, his motivations are eerily similar to those of the PC. One reason he came to the Solar System is that you sorta murdered his son Crota, then also ruined his funeral. Even from a human perspective, being mad that someone murdered your son is perfectly understandable, and many people could justify violence in such a situation. However, it also interestingly parallels what happens later in Forsaken, when Cayde-6 dies. Just like Oryx, the PC goes on a tear throughout the Solar System, killing anything in their way to get a shot at the perpetrator. Only difference there is that Oryx didn't succeed in avenging his son. Oryx is actually a quite good father in general. Read about his parenting here.
The second reason for Oryx's behavior in general is at its most basic level, the desire to grow stronger. Per Oryx's morality (which will warp reality), if something is killed, it did not deserve to live in the first place, as it is weak. Existence is a constant struggle for the right to exist, and as such one must constantly accrue power and assert that they have the right to exist. This is why Oryx has been on a tear through the universe for billions of years, annihilating species and systems. He simply thinks its the only moral thing to do to make sure that only stuff that deserves to exist does, and in doing so constantly makes sure that he is still deserving of this privilege. When you kill him, his final thoughts are anguish at not being able to avenge his son, but also understanding that he died because he was weak, and as such the PC deserved to win. In killing him, they assert their existence, and that is good. Now, he did expect you to take up his mantle so he could live on forever, constantly correcting his killer as they constantly correct him, which you didn't do, but this is similar to just the general mindset of a player of this type of game. You go out and kill things to get stronger and stronger gear to drop, then kill other players in PVP to prove that you're better and deserving of not being killed by them. While Hive morality may seem abhorrent, upon closer inspection, does the guardian not tread that closer than human morality?
Oryx also has a huge impact on the universe of Destiny. Him destroying the Cabal in the Solar System caused the entire empire to invade and take the Traveller from the Guardians, him nearly destroying the Vex caused them to work even harder at perfecting their science so such a close call could never happen again resulting in Curse of Osiris, his arrival resulted in the reawakening of warmind Rasputin, and his death made his sister, Savathun, spring into action herself, causing basically all of the Forsaken DLC.
I also love how huge a jump in power he is from most of the verse, and how that's made very clear in verse. I mean, just look at his profile, but everyone in verse has similar reactions. Crota considers his dad as extremely powerful and a good model to aspire to, the Vex in all their nigh omniscience couldn't forsee any way where they would defeat Oryx, Oryx caused the Cabal, a race with no word for failure, to send a distress beaco, Rasputin thought he was The Darkness itself, The Nine went into a frenzy when he Took an Ahamkara (Godlike wish granting dragon-worms), hell even in his own race he breaks the rules. He killed a god supposedly unfathomably above him, and for it The Darkness was impressed to the extent that it lets Oryx channel its strength directly.
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What a terrifying man lol.
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The one that's actually a man...kinda, and not a demon or Abstract.
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Love how the chaos gods have their shades of grey and virtues to avoid being "durr hurr IMMA big evil demon". In general, I think it's neat when writters avoid strawmanning their villains or characters for the heroes (you don't have to compromise their antagonist role for that).
This may be rather simplistic, but the further the character is from a central role (and still be fundamental in the setting) the easier it is to give them great powers and handle them properly without compromising the story.
@Andytremon: I think what's great about Simon is that his character works beautifully in any context. The guy could be the main character of a mundane sports anime and it would still be very powerful and meaningful, with his development quite significant. The insane power he has is mostly due to Gurren Lagann's over the top nature, but everything is delivered so passionately in it that instead of silly or cheap it comes as exciting and inspiring.
This may be rather simplistic, but the further the character is from a central role (and still be fundamental in the setting) the easier it is to give them great powers and handle them properly without compromising the story.
@Andytremon: I think what's great about Simon is that his character works beautifully in any context. The guy could be the main character of a mundane sports anime and it would still be very powerful and meaningful, with his development quite significant. The insane power he has is mostly due to Gurren Lagann's over the top nature, but everything is delivered so passionately in it that instead of silly or cheap it comes as exciting and inspiring.
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