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If one hax/resistance is layered, but one hax/resistance is conceptual and layered, which wins out?
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Hax potency question
- Thread starter DaReaperMan
- Start date
- 40,382
- 34,915
- Thread starter
- #3
Interesting, how about if it works by applying the very concept of the hax in question onto an individual? Like, if somone applied the concept of gold on someone to turn them into gold, would it be superior to something that just turns someone into gold without the extra context?
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They would need to resist Concept Manip & Transmutation I guess.
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- Thread starter
- #5
Those are my original thoughts on the matter, I just want to have a definitive answer
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"Superior" is a weird word.
It may help bypass specific resistances, but would it bypass more layers of resistance than it's shown? Unknown, so we'd probably default to no. Does resisting it let them resist something that worked on characters with more ordinary layers of resistance? Unknown, so we'd probably default to no.
They would need to resist Concept Manip & Transmutation I guess.
No, we tend to let abilities like this get resisted by multiple means.
Plot-based EE can be resisted by existing outside of the plot, or by inexplicably being unable to be erased; you don't need both.
It may help bypass specific resistances, but would it bypass more layers of resistance than it's shown? Unknown, so we'd probably default to no. Does resisting it let them resist something that worked on characters with more ordinary layers of resistance? Unknown, so we'd probably default to no.
They would need to resist Concept Manip & Transmutation I guess.
No, we tend to let abilities like this get resisted by multiple means.
Plot-based EE can be resisted by existing outside of the plot, or by inexplicably being unable to be erased; you don't need both.
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- Thread starter
- #7
Honestly this sounds like a topic that requires more input, as it genuinely interests me, so let me recruit more input
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Those are two different abilities in that case.
One is Conceptual Manipulation which has the effect of Transmutation.
The other is just Transmutation.
Not really a case of superiroirty but of different mechanics. Someone who resist conceputual manipulation but not transmutation wouldn't be able to stop the latter from occuring while someone who resist only transmutation wouldn't stop the former.
One is Conceptual Manipulation which has the effect of Transmutation.
The other is just Transmutation.
Not really a case of superiroirty but of different mechanics. Someone who resist conceputual manipulation but not transmutation wouldn't be able to stop the latter from occuring while someone who resist only transmutation wouldn't stop the former.
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Some other things that are worth nothing; if an ability like that has multiple effects, resisting the mechanism can make you not affected at all, while resisting the effects would only make you not affected by those effects.
And that sometimes characters can have resistances with specific mechanisms that make them not always resist that ability. If you resist mind manip because you wear a helmet that prevents any electrical signals from traveling to your brain and messing with your mind, you'd still be vulnerable to vague & psionic mind manip.
And that sometimes characters can have resistances with specific mechanisms that make them not always resist that ability. If you resist mind manip because you wear a helmet that prevents any electrical signals from traveling to your brain and messing with your mind, you'd still be vulnerable to vague & psionic mind manip.
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Inflicting the concept of gold can only turn someone to gold, it has no other effect at all
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Well, I guess if you resist having the concept of gold effecting/being placed on you in the first place the effect of it actually turning you to gold wouldn't go off.
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Sure it doesn't, but the mechanic of abilities are what matter more when it comes to determining something like resistances. Cause what you're actually resisting is different depending on what's actually happening.
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What about abilities that work on concepts? Would causality manipulation that works on someone's concept be better then causality manipulation that works on someone's body?
So law based power null can be resisted either via resisting law manipulation or power null?
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- Thread starter
- #14
Yeah, that is true, huh... makes Warhammer Fantasy more interesting... or not cause magic can effect Daemons anyway...
Huh... honestly can't decide with what I know know if something that is made of concepts, nothingness and the like anyway being effected by something that applies concepts... so, further question on that one...
Basically, if a conceptual power can effect something made of concepts and like 7 other AE1 things that honestly probably don't matter, does it change?
Huh... honestly can't decide with what I know know if something that is made of concepts, nothingness and the like anyway being effected by something that applies concepts... so, further question on that one...
Basically, if a conceptual power can effect something made of concepts and like 7 other AE1 things that honestly probably don't matter, does it change?
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- Thread starter
- #15
If it wasn't obvious i enjoy learning lol
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That sounds like a difference in mechanics as well. The thing would saying its better is that the assumption of one being superior to another is made, when what you're talking about is more a difference in capabilities. Ones ability to manipulate causality which only affects physical things could still be superior to someone else's who can also affect things on a conceptual level.
So I wouldn't immediately assume the other is better just because of what you proposed above.
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The assumption comes from concepts being inherently superior to the body.
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What about abilities that work on concepts? Would causality manipulation that works on someone's concept be better then causality manipulation that works on someone's body?
It would be better in that it can affect people's concepts, while ordinary abilities can't.
So law based power null can be resisted either via resisting law manipulation or power null?
Ye.
Basically, if a conceptual power can effect something made of concepts and like 7 other AE1 things that honestly probably don't matter, does it change?
It changes in that it can affect things with those qualities. If those qualities give additional resistances, then it grants additional layers of bypassing resistances. If it's just elaborate intangibility, it gives them elaborate NPI with that ability.
The assumption comes from concepts being inherently superior to the body.
I wouldn't make that assumption.
It would be better in that it can affect people's concepts, while ordinary abilities can't.
So law based power null can be resisted either via resisting law manipulation or power null?
Ye.
Basically, if a conceptual power can effect something made of concepts and like 7 other AE1 things that honestly probably don't matter, does it change?
It changes in that it can affect things with those qualities. If those qualities give additional resistances, then it grants additional layers of bypassing resistances. If it's just elaborate intangibility, it gives them elaborate NPI with that ability.
The assumption comes from concepts being inherently superior to the body.
I wouldn't make that assumption.
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Why not? Doesn't our regeneration page calls concept even more fundamental then body mind and soul?
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Because it's about levels of existence. Which things depend on which and all that. I think that lens of analysis is less useful when looking at hax potency.
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- #21
If someone's concept is put under say, an illusion, would the actual body be placed under the illusion?
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This is for the Sasuke fight isn't it?
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- Thread starter
- #24
Yeah, though TBH it has gotten a bit toxic, but I am glad I started digging, this is very interesting
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