• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Hax and Tiering

Status
Not open for further replies.

Warren_Valion

VS Battles
Retired
8,427
3,140
I have a question.

How does this wiki treat ethereal things like Soul or Law hax of a higher smurf caliber? Would they be "X tier via Hax" or is it that since it is hax, and not a "physical " force, would it not be in the tiering/ap sections of a profile?

I have since contradictory applications of both avenues of thought on profiles on the wiki, and I question which is accurate.
 
In principle they are incompatible, like, souls or spirits aren't really related to spatial dimensions or math (whatever the tiring system uses now, I'm not really into stuff above tier 3); if any, they are related to planes of existence.

As for Law Manipulation, guess it's related to Causality, so guess they work the same.

But I'm not the best to ask, are personally consider "smurfery" to be kind of arbitrary and ever changing.
 
Honestly, not sure, but if there's any standard for causality then it should apply to law (at the end, law is a common application of causality).
 
From what I can tell from other profiles, there doesn't really seem to be a Standard, some mention the Smurf Hax in their Tiering section as "X Tier via Hax", while others don't have any mention of the Smurfness on the profile at all.

It seems entirely dependant on who is editing the profile and Staff don't seem to be that bothered about which way the profile goes with.
 
I think rating them as X tier via whatever hax that gets them there is okay. Idk why it wouldn't reflect in the tier even if it is not physical force, and I am almost certain we already rate many characters as X tier via hax name.
 
I think rating them as X tier via whatever hax that gets them there is okay. Idk why it wouldn't reflect in the tier even if it is not physical force, and I am almost certain we already rate many characters as X tier via hax name.
Thank you for your answer.
 
You can ping other staff members using the @ function.
 
I have the feeling than that ping didn't work properly, the @ is usually blue along the user's name.
 
I think that AKM makes sense. I'm not sure what other input I could give on the nature of ranking hax.
 
Not all hax can be assigned a tier. Like spatial cutting works on High 3-A people (or even higher), but that doesn't make it High 3-A spatial cutting.
I would avoid something like "1-C via Mind Hax" unless there is 1-C energy behind that power, as there is an implication there regarding what level of negation is necessary to negate the power.

For those that somewhat can have a tier, like for example reality-warping galaxies out of existence, listing it as AP via hax is fine. It isn't required, as far as I know, so putting an explanation for how powerful it is somewhere else is ok as well in my opinion.


As usual, as long as it reflects what is factually correct, it probably doesn't matter too much, though.
 
DT makes sense to me; also I would often make certain hax abilities a range feat rather than an AP feat. Such as mind hacking a 1-C population being a range feat. I wouldn't considering mind hacking a Tier 1 an AP feat at all. But Reality warping large things into or out of existence seems solid.
 
Not all hax can be assigned a tier. Like spatial cutting works on High 3-A people (or even higher), but that doesn't make it High 3-A spatial cutting.
I would avoid something like "1-C via Mind Hax" unless there is 1-C energy behind that power, as there is an implication there regarding what level of negation is necessary to negate the power.

For those that somewhat can have a tier, like for example reality-warping galaxies out of existence, listing it as AP via hax is fine. It isn't required, as far as I know, so putting an explanation for how powerful it is somewhere else is ok as well in my opinion.


As usual, as long as it reflects what is factually correct, it probably doesn't matter too much, though.
What about Tier 1 Soul Rip and Law Manipulation, for instance? I should have probably specified in my OP.

I ask this because my friend edited my Shinza new profiles sandbox (which for right now is just assuming that all planned Shinza CRTs are accepted [this will be changed depending on if certain CRTs aren't accepted, of course]) to include High 1-A via Ewigkeit and then list the things about the magic system that are possibly High 1-A, depending on whether the upcoming CRT is accepted, in the AP justification.

I told him that I believed that saying High 1-A via Ewigkeit is disingenuous because it would only refer to Law Manipulation of Ber'iahs and the Soul Rip of Ahnenerbe, not any physical force that is High 1-A. And that said hax =/= AP.

He said that he saw other profiles do it, so he did it.

And that's why I am making this thread.


So thoughts?
 
If a feat is done via hax, like if they use the law manip or EE or whatever to nuke a universe, then yeah. Molecule Man is an example of something like this.

Otherwise it isn't listed as a tier
 
If a feat is done via hax, like if they use the law manip or EE or whatever to nuke a universe, then yeah. Molecule Man is an example of something like this.

Otherwise it isn't listed as a tier
Nothing that extreme.

Just that their weapons steal souls that disturb the current law, and that when they imbue their own law, it is detaching itself or pushing back against the world's old law (Mercurius).

Their physical strength is based on their soul stock.



So from this, it wouldn't be in their AP description, right?
 
If they have 1-A soul stuff and their soul stuff powers their physicals, wouldn't they just be 1-A anyways
 
If they have 1-A soul stuff and their soul stuff powers their physicals, wouldn't they just be 1-A anyways
Nah, their Soul Rip is what would be High 1-A because of Mercurius shit I won't get into here, but the souls they are absorbing that empower their physical strength aren't what is High 1-A.
 
What about Tier 1 Soul Rip and Law Manipulation, for instance? I should have probably specified in my OP.

I ask this because my friend edited my Shinza new profiles sandbox (which for right now is just assuming that all planned Shinza CRTs are accepted [this will be changed depending on if certain CRTs aren't accepted, of course]) to include High 1-A via Ewigkeit and then list the things about the magic system that are possibly High 1-A, depending on whether the upcoming CRT is accepted, in the AP justification.

I told him that I believed that saying High 1-A via Ewigkeit is disingenuous because it would only refer to Law Manipulation of Ber'iahs and the Soul Rip of Ahnenerbe, not any physical force that is High 1-A. And that said hax =/= AP.

He said that he saw other profiles do it, so he did it.

And that's why I am making this thread.


So thoughts?
I don't really know the case. It sounds a bit like Owari no Chronicle where many characters get their abilities via Tier 2 concept manipulation. Like, Susamikado fires 8-A lightning by manipulating concepts so that he can do that.
I decided to not to list it in the AP as the characters don't really have that much attack power. The only exception to that is Noah because she does theoretically use it to destroy universes.

Anyway, it might be a good idea to explain the power of those abilities somewhere on the page so that it is clear that those ones are smurf. Unless the laws cause physical destruction, where it should be listed in the AP section, the Notable Attack/Techniques section is probably a good place.
 
Mercurius is one of the infamous Masada High 1-A Gods, his Law paints over reality and he has all Souls under his control.

The characters in Dies Irae can use a sorcery created by Mercurius to rip these souls from others and take ownership of them for their own, though these souls and their powers fueled by the souls have no proof of being anything other than 3D normally. At a further stage of their power they can, for a limited amount of time, paint over a localised section of reality with their own Law to bring about a desired effect that goes against the normal rules of reality.
 
I don't really know the case. It sounds a bit like Owari no Chronicle where many characters get their abilities via Tier 2 concept manipulation. Like, Susamikado fires 8-A lightning by manipulating concepts so that he can do that.
I decided to not to list it in the AP as the characters don't really have that much attack power. The only exception to that is Noah because she does theoretically use it to destroy universes.

Anyway, it might be a good idea to explain the power of those abilities somewhere on the page so that it is clear that those ones are smurf. Unless the laws cause physical destruction, where it should be listed in the AP section, the Notable Attack/Techniques section is probably a good place.
Thank you, this is what I believed to be the best route going forward with these profiles.

I will take this and discuss it with my friend and get his thoughts.

Thanks, @ everyone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top