Hawkeye CRT (edit: basically a Netflix MCU revision thread now lol)

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

About time we've made a CRT for the Hawkeye TV show.

So firstly people made a some calculations for different Hawkeye arrows, the highest one being the helicarrier one in the first Avengers movie.

Kingpin also has a 9-A feat now

There seem to be conflicting reports on whether Kingpin is stronger in Hawkeye than Daredevil. Vincent D'Onofrio says he is "obviously stronger" in this interview but seemingly contradicts himself in another one. I think it would be better to give him another key as we are uncertain what happened between Daredevil and Hawkeye, both in universe as well as the out universe complications.

Feel free to make a profile for the characters without ones yet, but just gonna agree the proposed changes/new ratings first:

-Hawkeye's arrows would be downgraded "up to 9-A", and only 8-C by piercing damage
-Kingpin would get a new 9-A key for surviving the explosion caused by a combination of trick arrows as
-Kingpin's armoured tuxedo can probably be 8-C against piercing attacks as Hawkeye's arrow did nothing to him
-Hawkeye seems more powerful among Marvel street tiers than a lot of people give him credit for, a lot of the time in the show he's holding back and still holds an advantage
-Yelena should scale to Hawkeye and Black Widow due to her showings in the two respective media, albeit probably slightly inferior
-Echo fought Hawkeye multiple times, but she seemed a bit weaker when Hawkeye/Ronin was serious, but should still be 9-B
-Kate is at least 9-C for beating up thugs and somewhat holding her own and 9-B durability for taking some pretty hard hits from 9-B characters. She also defeated Kazi who could fight Hawkeye for a bit before getting knocked out by taking him on surprise. Kate is still portrayed as weaker than even Echo though, and we don't really see her do much superhuman stuff but rather simply using her martial arts skill to take out the Tracksuit Mafia, so she should still be 9-C only at least in terms of AP.

Overall the scaling chain would be Kingpin > Hawkeye/Black Widow >= Yelena >= Echo > Kate > Kazi > Tracksuit goons (I wish we got a Kingpin vs Hawkeye fight)

There's obviously a lot of trick arrows used by Hawkeye and Kate but there's not really anything controversial and that can be easily just grabbed from a respect thread when someone decides to make the profiles so I'm not gonna discuss them here.

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

I agree
tho someone should probably calc the destruction for the helicarier feat, that might give a better result than 9-A

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree

 

[KieranH10]

Iirc I estimated the helicarrier feat a while back out of boredom and got 8-C, granted it was a rough estimate as I say. So it could be worth doing.

I agree with everything here btw.

 

[Dalesean027]

I agree as well

 

[Coolboy6]

Def agreed

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

This looks good, I agree.
And yes, I think Kingpin should definitely get a new key, at least for the time being. He's clearly being portrayed as stronger than he was in Daredevil. I suspect Daredevil himself will also get a new key when he shows up in future MCU projects.

Also on a sidenote, shouldn't Hawkeye get Size Manipulation (via Pym arrow heads) and Vibration Manipulation (iirc during the final battle one of the arrows created a shockwave) with his trick arrows?

 

[Propellus]

Shouldn't Kingpin have Massively Hypersonic combat speed and reactions for keeping up with Kate Bishop who scales to Clint?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Yeah sure. Although in the separate key at least for now.

@Uchicha Yeah I suppose so. He also created a shockwave in Age of Ultron.

Idk if it's worth calculating the GPE of the big arrow though it probably won't be higher than 9-A.

 

[Hellbeast]

TBH wouldn't the 9-B end suggested be consistent with Daredevil and co being 9-B

 

[Dalesean027]

TBH wouldn't the 9-B end suggested be consistent with Daredevil and co being 9-B

If you mean for Kingpin they're outright displaying him to be more impressive than he was in daredevil and they make note of that outside of the series too so I don't think he should be limited by feats from just daredevil

 

[Hellbeast]

If you mean for Kingpin they're outright displaying him to be more impressive than he was in daredevil and they make note of that outside of the series too so I don't think he should be limited by feats from just daredevil

True, I just wonder if this portrayal is instead referring to the nature of Hawkeye vs Daredevil and not just talking about Kingpin somehow growing massively in strength under absolutely no real reason.
It's kind of like having keys for the Variant Spider-Men, there's no real reason beyond "oh they weren't that strong in their films".

 

[Dalesean027]

True, I just wonder if this portrayal is instead referring to the nature of Hawkeye vs Daredevil and not just talking about Kingpin somehow growing massively in strength under absolutely no real reason.

Yeah I get ya and to be fair Matt already displayed some reactions that made Peter raise an eye in NWH so it could entirely be possible that he's simply more impressive but that just wouldn't detract from or affect Kingpin being all tanky

 

[Hellbeast]

That's part of it plus we know Punisher is making a return eventually (Moon Knight right?)
I'd rather just have a split tiering (9-B, likely 9-A) if we accept the 9-A end but if not they should just be the same since we don't have reason to give him a key rn

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

TBF there IS pretty consistent 9-A scaling for Daredevil from The Defenders, but it's not being used for whatever reason.
Revived Elektra blatantly fought, and even knocked out, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones multiple times throughout the series. She even took a hit from the Iron Fist, and didn't have any damage to show for it.
Why does this matter? Well, because Matt also fought Elektra a bunch of times. You could argue she was maybe holding back during the final fight against him, but all the times before that? I doubt it.

I can see why many would maybe consider this an outlier or something though, but still, food for thought, eh? To be fair, most of Daredevil and co's 9-B feats were kinda casual, too.

 

[Hellbeast]

Tbh why do we have the Netflix cast at 9-A again?
I can’t recall any calcs

 

[Dinobot1996]

The Netflix Marvel shows could probably use some work in general at some point. There's some profiles from them that could still be made, Jessica Jones has this LS feat that should be calced, and Luke Cage has some feats that I think should justify some resistances that aren't listed in his profile (pressure points, fire, electricity, Also acid that had to be heated to 125 degrees Celsius having to be used to soften his skin enough to perform surgery on him)

 

[Aguywhodoesthings]

It could be nice to calc that bar explosion in jessica jones that Cage tanked
his page mentions it but the link doesn't seem to go for an actual calc for that

 

[Dinobot1996]

Tbh why do we have the Netflix cast at 9-A again?
I can’t recall any calcs

Luke Cage has a 9-B+ (12502350 Joules) calc on his page. The destruction of his bar would be useful to calc, as that might provide actual justification for a 9-A rating.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He also survived an RPG that made a building collapse on him. He has other feats as well, like punching through a van's side into a wall enough to make a human sized hole.

 

[Hellbeast]

Luke Cage has a 9-B+ (12502350 Joules) calc on his page. The destruction of his bar would be useful to calc, as that might provide actual justification for a 9-A rating.

I believe the bar with 9-B+ but I don’t know where it is

He also survived an RPG that made a building collapse on him.

Damn link

He has other feats as well, like punching through a van's side into a wall enough to make a human sized hole.

That would likely just be 9-B+ but a Calc would be dope

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Doesn't Elektra have 2 keys?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Damn link

Here you go

That would likely just be 9-B+ but a Calc would be dope

I couldn't find a clip on YT, but it's from S1E6, at around the 37:40 mark.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Doesn't Elektra have 2 keys?

Yes, I was talking about her second key after she was revived.

 

[Hellbeast]

Here you go

Why the duck does the music sound that goofy
But yeah that should be good to calculate

I couldn't find a clip on YT, but it's from S1E6, at around the 37:40 mark.

Hmm dope

 

[Dinobot1996]

But yeah that should be good to calculate

I'm pretty sure that's the same feat that the calc linked on Luke's page already covered, that gave 9-B+ results, unless you think something was calculated incorrectly.

 

[KLOL506]

Shouldn't Kingpin have Massively Hypersonic combat speed and reactions for keeping up with Kate Bishop who scales to Clint?

there's no MHS anymore to latch onto. Remember, most peeps scaled off of Spidey's MHS meteor dodging calc. Which no longer matters, because Spidey as a whole is... well, MHS+ in combat speed, reactions and short-burst movement speed.

I'll see if I can get some good photo shots for Kingpin's boom, I have the episode at hand. Worst comes to worst, we could always try the shot where Hawkeye blows up shit with his arrows, no reason to assume Kate's arrows are weaker since they both worked on each other's arrows.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, so I took some shots, and I get 0.0064-ish tons of TNT on my side (Rougly 0.001 tons of TNT smaller than Spino), but my result is after a tiny bit of the boom dissipates so it made the result a bit hard to get.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

there's no MHS anymore to latch onto. Remember, most peeps scaled off of Spidey's MHS meteor dodging calc. Which no longer matters, because Spidey as a whole is... well, MHS+ in combat speed, reactions and short-burst movement speed.

I'll see if I can get some good photo shots for Kingpin's boom, I have the episode at hand. Worst comes to worst, we could always try the shot where Hawkeye blows up shit with his arrows, no reason to assume Kate's arrows are weaker since they both worked on each other's arrows.

wait what happened to making the rest of the MCU MHS+ too lmao have we simply never got there?

 

[KLOL506]

wait what happened to making the rest of the MCU MHS+ too lmao have we simply never got there?

Yeah that's the thing. We never got to updating the rest of the profiles other than Spidey-Men and co., Thor is already fine where he is, the problems are the street tiers and such (The non-Spidey gang). Qaws said he planned to revise them to Supersonic and whatnot, but then he said those plans failed and collapsed unto themselves.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Rejected in a CRT or that he just gave up?

 

[KLOL506]

Rejected in a CRT or that he just gave up?

Prolly he just gave up, since he said he tried multiple times in the past to no success.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

In my opinion the only consistent thing to do would be to scale all characters to the same speed level but I do understand that it's a pretty big dilemma. I remember a time when the MCU was mocked for being slow on this wiki lmao but as time went on, more powerful characters are introduced with pretty insane speed feats yet the MCU doesn't treat them as faster than weaker ones when they meet each other (I guess that would make every movie very boring lmao).

 

[Hellbeast]

I’d rather split the characters up by Theo objective scaling with mayb characters like Cap being at least supersonic likey Massively Hypersonic

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I mean either there's powerscaling or there's not. There's not more of a reason to scale stronger characters without their own feats to MHS+ than weaker characters.

I could see a solution being to list their own speed feats, something like Captain America "Subsonic+, MHS+ via powerscaling", my only issue is that it has to be consistent, not just that we subjectively feel it's reasonable.

 

[Hellbeast]

I mean either there's powerscaling or there's not. There's not more of a reason to scale stronger characters without their own feats to MHS+ than weaker characters.

The reason I'd say Cap gets mixed tiering is because of him fighting on par with Iron Man, reacting to Thanos and fighting on par with Spidey which is much more then a lot of other street tiers have themselves

I could see a solution being to list their own speed feats with something like "MHS+ via powerscaling", my only issue is that it has to be consistent, not just that we subjectively feel it's reasonable.

So would that be Supersonic, likely MHS+?
I think that could work as a compromise

 

[KLOL506]

I was personally gonna opt for Spidey to have keys based on him awakening his Spider-Sense but that falls flat on its face given that he can pretty much keep up with Electro without using his senses to his full potential.

I was also gonna try the holding back card but then the same argument could apply to Cap because he wouldn't wanna harm a kid so uh...

Yeah. This is indeed a fucky dilemma.

 

[KLOL506]

The reason I'd say Cap gets mixed tiering is because of him fighting on par with Iron Man, reacting to Thanos and fighting on par with Spidey which is much more then a lot of other street tiers have themselves

Wasn't that Mark 50-85 Iron Man? Mjolnir Cap is MHS+ through and through. Pretty sure Iron Man has High Hypersonic flight speed, and there was a conundrum regarding scaling flight speed to combat speed and reactions if there are no statements that his flight speed, combat speed and reactions are equal (Though I'm inclined to say yes given the crazy ass maneuvers Iron Man can do during flight and that even singular pieces can do Mach 46.8 without issue. Heck, in IM2 Jarvis even makes out a pre-calculated path around the Globe thingy in the Stark Expo and even said in IM1 that terabytes of calculations would need to be done before Tony could even attempt to fly, Tony proving him wrong of course). There's also Hulk and Hulkbuster fighting each other mid-flight and Hulk keeping up with him via leaps and such.

So would that be Supersonic, likely MHS+?
I think that could work as a compromise

Maybe. There's also Pre-Awakening Thor to consider. Does he have any enemies that can keep up with him in combat and dodge his lightning bolts other than Hela (Since that's Awakened Thor stuff).

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So would that be Supersonic, likely MHS+?
I think that could work as a compromise

Depends on the feats I guess, I just randomly threw in Subsonic+ because I remember I did a calc for that.

It's just an idea I randomly had because of some less famous profiles I came across which sometimes have the format "Rating X (character eats), Rating Y via powerscaling" but I doubt it's been really checked by people. So Cap would be "Subsonic+, MHS via powerscaling", Wanda would be "Supersonic, MHS via powerscaling", etc.

Although it would be kinda unprecedented to implement that on a large scale for a such a famous verse and would probably require the formation of a wiki rule to make an exception which I don't know if it will be allowed. Although given the MCU's situation I'd argue it's warranted, we're a power indexing wiki after all and from a utilitarian perspective visitors would like to see a character's own feats rather than the whole verse scaling to each other to some ridiculous number.

Idk just a shower thought.

 

[Lacku]

For sure agree