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Gyarados vs Orochi

PaChi2 said:
Also, just for debate's sake, unless Im missing something, Gyarados starts inside a body of water, meaning he wont be able to dodge any of Orochi's most powerful attacks.
About stamina, idk, the guy can continue fighting after suffering some big wounds and is nearly impervious to pain. Psykos supposedly put him under near death situations time after time again.

And I dont think it works like "x4 damage", as that's a game thing.
Click to expand...
Were the near death situations ever detailed? I'm also not sure how well that holds up against rampaging for a month. And nonetheless, Gyarados's AP is still about 2.6 times that of Orochi's durability.

Also, even if it isn't four times as much, then how much more effective do you think an attack "Super-Effective" on both a Pokemon's types should be? I admit, there's game mechanics beyond such a multiplier, but I'm open to propositions for other multiplier assumptions if basises for them exist.
 
Pretty sure it's the same kind that she made Garou go through. Getting nearly cut in half, being forced to fight for hours while his bones are broken and he's running a fever, etc.

And a being hit hundreds of times by an attack your weak to won't be offset by stamina, nor a mere X2 AP advantage.
 
So, experience "death" (Quotations theirs, not mine) as a human, quickly lose life, experience a living hell. Supposedly, Orochi overcame his "death" multiple times, becoming stronger with each instance. Although, disappointingly, there's no timeframe & not much detail on what torture or such he was subjected to.

@Ricsi-viragosi: Isn't one of the points of Stamina specifically to endure devastating damage to you? For example, don't we ascribe high stamina ratings to characters who continue fighting despite enormous damage to their bodies?

Also, the point of bringing up higher AP is to indicate Orochi will be taking severe damage, too. And that's assuming it's not dodged, or the part that would hit Gyarados is blocked by Gyarados's own attack....

Also, being hit hundreds of times with a weakness? He didn't lead with the electrical attacks; He performed a few attacks on Saitama, got several of his tentacles destroyed by a single punch, then he fired an electric beam attack from about 5 of his heads, combined.

Speed is equalized, so he's not going to be attacking, hundreds of times faster. He does have multiple dragon/snake tentacles, but it's unlikely all of them are going to be surviving attacks from an opponent with higher AP.
 
It can be, but being able to fight for weeks means nothing to getting fried by electricity.

And pokemon fights rarely last more than a few minutes.
 
Even though being fried or attacked might be something that would happen while fighting for a whole month? And Gyarados specifically shows up to rampage in places during "world conflict", wars, when violence flared, etc. so I doubt it's rampaging without coming under fire.

Also, I'd trust the lore from the primary canon from the games about how long it might rampage for.

And I'd think a few minutes is quite a lot of time for a battle, relatively speaking, when the slowest speed that these combatants might be equalized to is Massively Hypersonic+.
 
That's not a fair assumption to make. Gygadros isn't that amazing in pokemon battles even ignoring meta, and while it is impressive, it's fights are nowhere near weeks long. And that's without it's weakness being exploited.

Except the lore doesn't say it's fighting with someone or something similiar to it for that long. At difference of every actual fight it ever had with something equally strong, where it did not fight for that long.

It's not going to help when it's enemy can predict and dodge everything fired at him for hours.
 
Just so we're clear:

Gyarados >>> Pupitar who has a 531 megaton feat by thrashing around by virtue of being a powerful pokemon even among fully evolved Pokemon who are already superior to Pupitar.

Orochi is equal to Golden Sperm who is >>> an injured Tatsumaki who can one-shot multi cell sperm who in turn can one-shot Bomb who is >= 203 megatons
 
@Ricsi-viragosi: I'd question if it's not that amazing, considering it's often been used by high level trainers, such as Claire, Lance, Misty, etc. If nothing else, it's reputable.

Also do you think Gyarados's stamina feat of rampaging for an entire month that its stamina section on the profile cites, isn't combat applicable?

I'm not sure it'd be that easy to avoid. Yes, Orochi is a shapeshifter, & former human master martial artist, but he also has Large Size up to Type 2; Type 0 begins at 5 meters tall, Type 1 is 13 to 14 meters, & Type 2 is 100 meters.

Gyarados's range:

Range: Extended melee range by virtue of size, tens of kilometers with most attacks

With a range of tens of kilometers, I think it would be difficult to miss a target that's frequently building-sized. Moreso with moves such as Twister & Hurricane, & a shockwave attack like Dragon Rage. Not to mention the sizeable explosion Hyper Beam may make.

(Thank you for the reminders & information, GyroNutz.)
 
It's a good pokemon, but it doesn't stalemate electric types for weeks.

Not while it's being constantly harmed, no. It can attack for that long, but not take it for that long.

He can just divide up his snakes to do so.


And that range is not for Aoe, which tends to be a few meters to a few dozen meters, with Orochi likely staying at range to shoot danmaku. And if Gygadros gets bogged down at attacking then it'll just get pummelled with several dozens of beams that it's weak to.
 
Kid0008: At the time of writing, that isn't a Youtube link, but a FC/OC link.

It does have the option to try evading while attacking, not just take the hits, (&, if such statistical changes are relevant in speed equalized, can augment its physical AP & Speed with Dragon Dance, which may help it evade.) & yes, he can divide his snakes, but it'll be less effective than all of them hitting at once, & any that get destroyed will likely lessen his attacking options, perhaps temporarily.

Besides that, electricity isn't even his first resort. He was attacking Saitama physically when Saitama showed up, then shot a beam that, IMHO, looks a lot less electric. And after his speech, he had his tentacles rush in for a physical attack on Saitama , who destroyed them. THEN, he tried firing several beams, forward, then spinning around.

Electricity Manipulation was a product of one large combined attack, didn't seem like a first resort, & before he uses it, Gyarados is roughly 2.6 times stronger than him, more or less. (Going by the profile, Orochi's AP may be weakened by Gyarados Intimidate, & similarly, his Speed by Gyarados's "Freighten", if that's relevant in Speed Equalized.)

Incidentally, physically assaulting Gyarados may be bad, given the Tenacity ability listed on its profile, which can cause flinching on contact. It'd be a temporary advantage, but temporarily freezing up when his tentacles hit Gyarados still hinders Orochi.

Regarding range, I'd be skeptical of hurricanes & twister having diameters of only a few dozen meters when the stated range is tens of kilometers. If that is accurate, though, the profile may need to be revised to account for that overstatement.
 
Having tens of kilometres as your range doesn't mean your attacks have AoEs of 10 kilometres or more. It just means you can create hurricanes from over ten kilometres away.
 
My mistake. Thank you for the clarification. I wonder if stuff like that should be made more clear on profiles.
 
Many of the stuff you are claiming is taking game mechanics literally. Leer is literally looking at the enemy in a scary way, and same goes for most of it's stat stuff.

Even tenacity only works because it's, well, tenacious and makes enemies that hit it flinch because of that.

Regardless, Gygadros is dumb. It shoots fire to brun things down, headbutt and strangles enemies with it's bodies, and bereker's it's way through everyone. It will not resolt to any kind of tactic beyond shooting the enemy down.
 
@Ricsi-viragosi: I admit, I have cited game mechanics in the case of some unavailable statistics. But in the case of abilities, I'm just listing stuff already on Gyarados's profile. For example, this is exactly how the ability Tenacity is listed on Gyarados's profile:

  • Tenacity: Contact with Gyarados may cause the attacker to flinch.
If you feel the profile is inaccurate, such as by disagreeing with the inclusion of those abilities, or how our Wiki describes their effects, then start a content revision.

(I'm not sure if strangling is something its depicted as doing often, Bind aside.)I don't disagree about it being dumb, but it doesn't take much smarts to attack your opponent's many limbs & blow their heads off.

Gyarados being dumb also doesn't change its base statistical advantage.

(Also, a bit off-topic, but you've mispelled "Gyarados" as "Gygadros" 3 times now. AFAIK, that's not even a spelling in any of the non-English names for Gyarados Bulbapedia lists. Is everything alright?)
 
Except it being dumb nulls your arguments about stat a ping and decreasing, and if you think a mere 2.5 times AP advantage is enough to blow of several dozen meters thick appendages... your wrong, it takes a lot more.
 
@GyroNutz: I suppose I have provided arguments in its favor, haven't I? (Higher statistics in base, some beneficial abilities, should be able to destroy some of Orochi's heads, greater range in terms of distance....)

I guess you could count me as a vote for Gyarados, High-Difficulty, for the time being, if you weren't doing so already.

@ Ricsi-viragosi: 2.61 (Rough result of 531 / 203), if we're being technical, which, like Orochi's own statistical estimate is rough, given it's an At least 7-A, for scaling to being above Pupitar.

And I suppose Dragon Dance might be unlikely for a rampaging Gyarados to use. (Although I don't think I brought up any other statistics manipulation that has to be actively initiated.)

As for the matter of several appendages, as I pointed out, when Orochi attacked Saitama, he opened with melee attacks & sending many of his appendages relatively straight forward towards his target. Not to mention, he often concentrates his beams, including when he fired his beam where he demonstrated his electricity; Even if Gyarados's AP advantage isn't enough that it can't severely damage only the HEADS of Orochi's many tentacles, him concentrating his beams could lead to Gyarados firing back, where it could overpower his attacks.
 
@Imaginym Gyarados starts at 4 Km from Orochi. His appendages arent that long.
 
And the beam created by Orochi is bigger than Gyarados itself. Gyarados cant simply stop that beam. To add to that, Orochi's attack will reach through the water to Gyarados too, which means that Gyarados will get damaged even if it can dodge or counter the blast.
 
I'm not sure how to properly gage Gyarados' stats. The 7-A value comes from Pupitar, a mid evolution, but as recall all mid evolution pokemon are supposed to be Low 7-B, and I would imagine that includes Pupitar. I would have thought 531 Megatons was roughly where Gyarados was at. Even accounting for their stat difference (410 and 540 respectively, or a 1.3x difference = 690 Megatons, but that's purely speculation)

I bring that up because the 203 Megaton value comes from Gouketsu, who even in his monstrous state was vastly below Orochi's power. That could mean a difference of 2x or 1000x. Pure speculation, but the point is that Orochi is supposed to be well above his given stats compared to how much further Gyarados is to his.

Anyway ignoring the stat difference, I can't imagine Gyarados being able to land any hits in considering how predictable he'll be. Orochi can always just repel, nullify or straight up redirect all his attacks back at him. One solid Electrical blast will pretty much fry Gyarados. Not in a way that'll simply increase damage dealt, more in a "electricty is straight up his Kryptonite" kinda deal.
 
Dragopentling said:
Imagine if Orochi didn't have Electricity Manipulation. The match would've been much more on fair ground.
Click to expand...
Of course, because having one opponent whose only advantage over the other being intelligence is much fairer. Orochi literally has intelligence and electricity going for him, Gyarados has AP, dura, variety, range.

But of course.
 
PaChi2 said:
Dragopentling said:
Imagine if Orochi didn't have Electricity Manipulation. The match would've been much more on fair ground.
Click to expand...
Of course, because having one opponent whose only advantage over the other being intelligence is much fairer. Orochi literally has intelligence and electricity going for him, Gyarados has AP, dura, variety, range.

But of course.
Click to expand...
Hey, I'm just being honest here.
 
Ciruno Fortes said:
Nah not really fair if he doesn't have electricity. Gyarados already has massive AOE stuff too.
Click to expand...
Wasn't it argued above that Gyarados's range is not for Aoe, which tends to be a few meters to a few dozen meters?

(Also, Orochi is a shapeshifter & a skilled martial artist. Albeit, one that, assuming his Large Size that goes up to Type 2, is somewhere betwen 5 meters large & "skyscraper size"/100+ meters large. Also, speed might be equalized, but the slowest speed among either combatant is MHS+. At MHS+, you can move a lot more than a few dozen meters in a small timeframe, assuming no obstructions.)
 
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