Gur-Shaak & Lizzy vs Rireak Wilorin & Ivellios Nailo (Sunless Citadel vs Ardonia) (GRACE)

[ThePrimalHunter]

Half of one D&D Party vs Half of another D&D Party

Ground Rules:

• Gur-Shaak & Lizzy are 9-A while Rireak & Ivellios are 9-B (This way it's only a 1.66x AP diffrence rather than a 1.71x diffrence)
• Speed is equal for everyone
• Both sides know that the other team wants to kill them and that the other team is powerful, but nothing else
• Everybody is bloodlusted
• Both sides start 20 meters away from each other
• Fight takes place in a large gladiator arena with plenty of cover (something like this)
• Win via death, incap, or KO

Gur-Shaak & Lizzy's Animals are 23,095,680 Joules
Rireak Wilorin & Ivellios Nailo are >13,875,254.8301 Joules
The former 2 have a <1.66x AP advantage

Who Wins?

Barbarian & Druid: 3 (Armorchompy, Tllmbrg, LeoEpicGamer8910)
Sorcerer & Monk: 0 ()
Incon: 0 ()

 

[Armorchompy]

I feel like given the arena Lizzy just runs the **** away and starts summoning her shit while Gur-Shaak and the wolf fight the actual party (this is basically always what she does in combat), which means that in a couple turns R&I also have a Hippogriff and a second (weaker) Wolf to deal with, at which point I think the Hippogriff would just hard-beeline Rireak (Even just based off the campaign itself that's just what she did with the druid BBEG), definitely reach her very quickly due to its monstrous move speed, and even if he manages to stay alive he definitely can't support Ivellios anymore.

Before those turns happen, I honestly can't see any irreparable damage that Rireak can do. All damage spells do good damage but not enough to cripple given the AP gap, especially since Gur-Shaak is really tanky even for her tier, gets tankier about halfway through her HP and the Wolf has Evasion which lets him avoid AOE stuff. Poison Spray has too little range (and Lizzy has a Slow Poison scroll), Frostbite is potentially useful but not game-changing, and while Blindness/Deafness is potentially good it's a Con saving throw which means Gur-Shaak has an advantage in resisting it or pushing past its effects. Meanwhile while Lizzy's done summoning she can move on to casting pretty significant buffs on Gur-Shaak or the Hippogriff.

So I think it's just a situation of "Can Ivellios drop either the Wolf or Gur-Shaak before Lizzy's summons get out of hand" and I feel like that's a no. I see that he's probably a good deal more skilled than them but not only is he being flanked but one single hit from either of them is essentially instant death, Gur-Shaak has Improved Trip and DND wolves can just naturally start grappling after a successful hit, and that grappling attempt will undoubtedly be successful given that they're both far higher in LS than he is, at which point he'd be on the ground flanked by two people who even get an attack of opportunity when he tries to get up, it's a pretty hard challenge to beat.

 

[Drite77]

Just drop a 2nd level Magic Missile and Lizzy whould go down kek, after all, she only has 14 HP

 

[Tllmbrg]

Voting for Gur and Lizzy off the reasoning above

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Gur & Lizzy FRA

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

That's Grace

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

but one single hit from either of them is essentially instant death

The requirement for a one-shot is a 7.5x AP advantage, not a 1.66x

 

[InfiniteSped]

Lizzy is made of paper, so a good magic missile can definitely take her out. She's also got horrible initiative and walking speed, so pretty easy to run down before she can do anything, and Gur can't really heal her.

20 meters is 60 feet, so enough for the Sorcerer to get a couple spells off, depends on how damaging the magic missiles go, but Gur and Lizzy's wolf are a lot of hp to chew through.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Lizzy is made of paper, so a good magic missile can definitely take her out

According to her profile, Lizzy does still have comparable Durability to her party members, which is above Rireak's AP

I should note that Magic Missile can technically act as piercing damage though, which can probably do a lot if used correctly. And since Rireak mainly stays at a distance during his fights and is a good stratigist, he'll be spamming it as much as he can pretty much the whole fight

 

[InfiniteSped]

I'm not sure on the AP difference. If Lizzy and Gur scale to the Rothé calc, the other group prob should as well, if it's just due to levels. And the orc calc in Rireak and Ivellios' pages seems kinda weird, it uses normal fragmentation for breaking down a giant hole in a wall that multiple people were able to walk through, while the Rothé one uses violent fragmentation just for a vague "shatter". If anything, the second group's feat seems way higher.

And, in game terms, Lizzy has atrocious AC and HP, she's considerably below other characters at the same level in durability.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Actually, Grace isn't close to over yet, so I'll throw in my 2 cents

and while Blindness/Deafness is potentially good it's a Con saving throw which means Gur-Shaak has an advantage in resisting it or pushing past its effects

This is kind of a personal pet peeve, but for FC/OC D&D matches, I'm not sure that "Standard D&D Resistances" should actually be used in matches. Unless the character actually has a showing of resisting the said thing in their story, I don't think that they should get that resistance simply because it was a D&D campaign. Thats just my opinion, but I personally think that we should go more off of feats the characters actually preform in the story rather than just giving them resistances they never show. This is a VS Debate using characters from a story with established feats and skills, not a D&D game, so I don't see why "Standard D&D Resistances" would apply here. This also prevents people from simply saying "well that hack in the standard D&D resistances so X character resists it and easily wins" for matches that have a D&D character vs non-D&D character. Kind of makes accounting for D&D resistances unfair against litteraly every other verse. That might just be me though

Either way, on topic, something of note is that Rireak is a former military stratigist and fighter, and throughout the story, shows to be a skilled stratigest and fighter, so his stratigical thinking could come in play here when he realizes Ivellios & him are getting overwhelmed by summons. He could notice that Lizzy is the one summoning animals and tell Ivellios to focus on her. With her down, unless her summons stay after death, they just turned this from a 2 vs a bunch into a 2 vs 1. Even if the summons don't die, at least they won't have someone summoning animals anymore.

And if we decide to take into account my prior argument, Rireak starting with blinding could massivley help no matter who he blinds, making it so that Ivellios can pretty easily defeat the blinded person while Rireak spams attacks at the other person. If Rireak blinds Gur-Shaak, then spamming long ranged attacks and illusions at Lizzy would be damn hard to bypass while Ivellios pretty easily takes down Gur-Shaak due to better skill and acrobatics, making Lizzy & her wolf the only 2 left. If Rireak blinds Lizzy, then Ivellios can probably take her down very quick in hand-to-hand while Rireak range-spams Gur-Shaak and stalls long enough for Ivellios to come in and help out. This is all if blindness works though

I also have some counter points to the above arguement that I just thought of

at which point I think the Hippogriff would just hard-beeline Rireak (Even just based off the campaign itself that's just what she did with the druid BBEG), definitely reach her very quickly due to its monstrous move speed, and even if he manages to stay alive he definitely can't support Ivellios anymore.

Conservation and restoration of feathers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A single firebolt and Rireak should be fine so long as he hits the wings

Meanwhile while Lizzy's done summoning she can move on to casting pretty significant buffs on Gur-Shaak or the Hippogriff.

Many of her healing & statistics amplifying spells require her to touch the person, which once she does it once, Ivellios & Rireak would notice this and make sure to keep her away from things she could heal/buff. Also the statistics amplification stats shouldn't be super difficult to deal with as Ivellios can do a simular thing to himself with ki fueled attack & overall improve his own stats quite a bit

So I think it's just a situation of "Can Ivellios drop either the Wolf or Gur-Shaak before Lizzy's summons get out of hand"

I really doubt that her summons will really "get out of hand". Many of her "Summon Nature Ally 1" summons are animals that Ivellios & Rireak can one-shot or scale below their AP. Her Level 2 Allies will be more difficult to deal with, but Lizzy can only summon a very small amount of them. And, they're dumb predictable animals that R&I massivley outrange, outsmart, and outskill. Heck, nothing's stopping Rireak from using his blindness on them, as they probably can't resist it nearly as well, so that pretty much takes most of her summons out of the fight if Rireak lands the blindness and just starts burning them and poisoning them to death. If he can't use blindness anymore, then illusions should be more than capable of tricking the animals

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

I'm not sure on the AP difference. If Lizzy and Gur scale to the Rothé calc, the other group prob should as well, if it's just due to levels. And the orc calc in Rireak and Ivellios' pages seems kinda weird, it uses normal fragmentation for breaking down a giant hole in a wall that multiple people were able to walk through, while the Rothé one uses violent fragmentation just for a vague "shatter". If anything, the second group's feat seems way higher.

And, in game terms, Lizzy has atrocious AC and HP, she's considerably below other characters at the same level in durability.

The party never encounters a Rothe once during the campaign, and the creature is litteraly never even mentioned. Not a single person casts burning hands either, and the spell isn't mentioned once in the Ardonia campaign, so it would make litteraly no sense to scale the Ardonia characters off of those calcs. So I made my own calcs

As for the orc feat, WoG (our DM) claimed that it was fragmentation and I even sent the calc to them and they said that they thought the sizes and descruction value was pretty accurate, so idk what to tell you

 

[InfiniteSped]

Lizzy and Gur never face a Rothé either, it's just scaling by level.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

So unless they faught against a creature that in that games lore is comparable to a Rothe, or a creature preforms a simular feat, why are they scaled to a Rothe? See my prior arguement of not using "Standard D&D Resistances". The same thing applies to AP, Speed, ext. If the characters litteraly never preform a feat on that level, then it makes no sense to scale the FC/OC characters to that value if they never do anything like it. Each D&D campaign has it's own story, world, ext. So just blindly scaling characters to every other generic adventurere doesn't make sense if they have no proof of being that powerful other than the gameplay mechanics of levels

 

[InfiniteSped]

Ironically, Lizzy's wolf is a pretty good fighter, got a trip on a hit that you'd normally need a feat to use properly, and the Combat Reflexes feat that lets him do multiple attacks of opportunity per turn. Her summons get supernatural luck to hit, and they can have combat feats as well, like the hippogriff having the Dodge feat.

Edit: I believe the summons stay up even if she's knocked out as well, although they only last 48 seconds.

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

So unless they faught against a creature that in that games lore is comparable to a Rothe, or a creature preforms a simular feat, why are they scaled to a Rothe? See my prior arguement of not using "Standard D&D Resistances". The same thing applies to AP, Speed, ext. If the characters litteraly never preform a feat on that level, then it makes no sense to scale the FC/OC characters to that value if they never do anything like it. Each D&D campaign has it's own story, world, ext. So just blindly scaling characters to every other generic adventurere doesn't make sense if they have no proof of being that powerful other than the gameplay mechanics of levels

I actually have a real life example I can kind of use to show how "scaling by levels" for FC/OC D&D characters doesn't really work. I'm currently DMing a campaign, and currently, all of the players are level 4. Despite this, there was a feat one of the characters scales to that I calced to be 0.04 tons of TnT. By the logic of just scaling to levels, they should only be "9-B, possibly 9-A", even though they have feats more impressive than this that they scale to

I have another example I can use. In another campaign I played in, the characters were undeniably 9-C. Several WoG statements and feats the characters preform would put them only at about peak human. But because they were level 1 adventureres, by the scaling to levels logic, they would be 9-B despite having litteraly no feats even close to that

Do you see how the "scaling to levels" arguement doesn't work like, at all? For Vs Battles Wiki profiles on D&D, I get it, because they are ONLY going off of the monster manual and other books like that. But for actual characters and campaigns on FC/OC, we have actual stories, feats, statements from DMs and players, and a lot more to go off of for powerscaling the characters

 

[ThePrimalHunter]

Ironically, Lizzy's wolf is a pretty good fighter, got a trip on a hit that you'd normally need a feat to use properly, and the Combat Reflexes feat that lets him do multiple attacks of opportunity per turn. Her summons get supernatural luck to hit, and they can have combat feats as well, like the hippogriff having the Dodge feat.

Edit: I believe the summons stay up even if she's knocked out as well, although they only last 48 seconds.

If they only last 48 seconds, Rireak & Ivellios can just play keepaway and wait for the timer to run out and just straight up outlast LIzzy's summons. She can only summon a finite amount, so just stalling till she can't do anything could be a strategy. They have no prior knowledge on Lizzy though, so they might not think of this or Lizzy might be able to overwhelm them prior. And yes, the Wolf will be a danger to the duo, but superior range could help out the ardonia pair

Her summons get supernatural luck to hit, and they can have combat feats as well, like the hippogriff having the Dodge feat.

That won't be helpful if they can't see jack shit or have illusions constantly messing with them

 

[Armorchompy]

Regarding all the stat and resistance stuff I'm sorry but that's just like, how we scale DND stuff. If you don't want to in your own verse that's chill, we thought we should use DND scaling so we did. This isn't even an OC world, it's a slightly modified version of a 3.5e campaign so it is in DND's universe, sort of.

Either way, on topic, something of note is that Rireak is a former military stratigist and fighter, and throughout the story, shows to be a skilled stratigest and fighter, so his stratigical thinking could come in play here when he realizes Ivellios & him are getting overwhelmed by summons. He could notice that Lizzy is the one summoning animals and tell Ivellios to focus on her. With her down, unless her summons stay after death, they just turned this from a 2 vs a bunch into a 2 vs 1. Even if the summons don't die, at least they won't have someone summoning animals anymore.

"Beeline the squishy wizard" isn't a difficult strategy, but neither is "that guy will try to beeline the squishy wizard, I'll stop him". Arguably, this party's better at doing that strat, given that there's 2 direct combatants.

I think summons do stay after that and it'd be a 2v2 anyways, given that the wolf is just a real animal that sticks around until killed.

And if we decide to take into account my prior argument, Rireak starting with blinding could massivley help no matter who he blinds, making it so that Ivellios can pretty easily defeat the blinded person while Rireak spams attacks at the other person. If Rireak blinds Gur-Shaak, then spamming long ranged attacks and illusions at Lizzy would be damn hard to bypass while Ivellios pretty easily takes down Gur-Shaak due to better skill and acrobatics, making Lizzy & her wolf the only 2 left. If Rireak blinds Lizzy, then Ivellios can probably take her down very quick in hand-to-hand while Rireak range-spams Gur-Shaak and stalls long enough for Ivellios to come in and help out. This is all if blindness works though

Blinding Lizzy is pointless, she can summon while blinded too. No matter whether you blind Gur-Shaak or Wolfie the other's gonna be able to see and keep Ivellios busy and prevent him from inflicting lethal damage.

Also again Lizzy is literally just going to run away and hide, Rireak would need to step out and chase her, potentially passing past the melee people in the process.

A single firebolt and Rireak should be fine so long as he hits the wings

Beyond the fact that you need to hit the wings, which are a difficult target (with the AP advantage I'm not convinced an indirect hit would do much), Hippogriffs move faster than people on foot too (50 ft vs 30 ft).

I really doubt that her summons will really "get out of hand". Many of her "Summon Nature Ally 1" summons are animals that Ivellios & Rireak can one-shot or scale below their AP. Her Level 2 Allies will be more difficult to deal with, but Lizzy can only summon a very small amount of them. And, they're dumb predictable animals that R&I massivley outrange, outsmart, and outskill.

It's not really that simple, a CR 2 animal is enough to keep a whole level 2 party busy and essentially has noteworthy combat skill of its own, it's not something a single level 4 can take care of so effortlessly. Just ask the CR 4 (Not level 4, CR 4) Druid that got his ass destroyed by the Hippogriff if he thought it was predictable or dumb.

Lizzy essentially only ever summons wolves with SNA1, granted they're still weaker than your guys but they have Trip which still makes them a serious threat.

Heck, nothing's stopping Rireak from using his blindness on them, as they probably can't resist it nearly as well, so that pretty much takes most of her summons out of the fight if Rireak lands the blindness and just starts burning them and poisoning them to death. If he can't use blindness anymore, then illusions should be more than capable of tricking the animals

If he uses Blindness then that's a Blindness not cast on Gur-Shaak or Wolfie who are at least equally big threats. A lot of your arguments hinge on Rireak but he can only do one thing at a time, and in the meantime Gur-Shaak and Wolfie will either both be taking care of the Monk, or Wolfie will also be beelining him.

Minor Illusion doesn't even work like that, it's just creating the image of a small object, it's not gonna distract an animal from beelining you especially if it was ordered to.

Oh, also, something I forgot, Lizzie has two skeletons fighting with her. They're weak but they do draw aggro and they're weirdly hard to hit.