Guilty Gear Scaling Revision (Part 7): A New Set of God Tiers

[CloverDragon03]

My intention is for this to be the last of the major Guilty Gear AP revisions. After this, we'll be moving onto speed. I anticipate this will likely be the most controversial of the Guilty Gear revisions thus far. Here we go...

So, in the last CRT, I have a bunch of characters new keys specifically for Guilty Gear Strive. This helps a lot, as it can now directly lead into this thread. Essentially, with Merged I-No's suppressed key being deemed completely bunk, there's some scaling to her that's just left completely unaddressed. That's what this thread aims to rectify.

Without further ado, here is the sandbox. In short, the proposal is that the Strive "At least High 5-A, possibly Low 4-C" characters become Low 1-C, along with Asuka getting a Low 1-C Strive key for fusing himself with the Tome of Origin and via scaling to Sol.

I understand that seeing a bunch of Low 1-C characters here is quite jarring, but I hope I've justified the scaling - particularly for Ky, Nagoriyuki, and Axl since they actively fought Merged I-No and the rest of the scaling is sort of a byproduct of that.

And that's about it from me, so I'll open the floor to discussion!

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, DarkGrath (prefers "Likely Low 1-C" but does not oppose a full rating), Planck69, Theglassman12, Armorchompy (via Happy Chaos statement)
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks great to me.

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

I agree

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Agreed as well here

 

[Armorchompy]

After a bit of a discussion with Clover in DMs, these are my personal opinions, I'll note I don't know much of GG lore, I did watch the scene, and I think I kinda get the context, but I thought I should say anyways.

While they do block attacks from I-No, and there's no reason to think that those attacks aren't performed to the best of her abilities by the end of the fight, that does cause a big inconsistency with the other side of things, which is that sort of everyone in the fight, on both sides, agrees that they can't hurt I-No at all (with the exception of Ky's Install, who I think 100% scales to her, and Sol's weapon which is also its own case), and this is corroborated, they fight her, but they essentially get tossed around and deal zero damage- I think that them not being all just one-shot with zero effort is more of a PIS thing than anything- I-No is explicitly far superior to them, but the plot requires them to at least distract her a bit so Sol can land the one shot he needs.

If it were solely up to me, I wouldn't scale these characters to Low 1-C at all. However, I know Clover disagrees, I think others will too, and I do understand the other side of the argument- the characters do keep up with I-No to some regard. My counter to that would be that to do what they do in that fight, they'd need to be comparable to her to such a degree that they'd also be able to hurt her, so it doesn't make much sense either way, but I do understand that there are feats of them scaling. So, I would propose that given the ambiguity, the characters should be rated as At least [previous tiers], possibly or likely (which of the two is up to yall) Low 1-C. I'm not gonna get in the way of full scaling if that's what people prefer though I do disagree with it, I just think this is a situation in which it's better to play it safe given the characters are definitely not on her level, and just sort of hold on by a thread.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Agree

 

[Theglassman12]

Not really sure I'd buy Chipp scaling around Happy Chaos' level when that's a pretty casual shot compared to his more serious arsenal with whatever the hell he did with Nago's blade to hurt Sol, same with Bridget scaling to DI Ky if he was being casual in the first place. Everyone else with more on the nose scaling to Merged I-No is fine.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Worth keeping in mind that Bridget's and Chipp's scaling was already accepted. The value would just be what's changing

 

[Theglassman12]

I'd still say a possibly rating for them, especially with Ky implying to not really trying makes the scaling that high a bit iffy.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'd still say a possibly rating for them, especially with Ky implying to not really trying makes the scaling that high a bit iffy.

Chipp and Bridget are gonna only be "possibly Low 1-C" yeah. That's highlighted in the sandbox. Even before the Tier 1 stuff, they were already "possibly High 5-A to Low 4-C"

 

[Theglassman12]

Then yeah, that's fine I guess.

 

[Planck69]

I think Armorchompy brings up valid concerns. So I agree with them for now.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Personally, I think an important sticking point is also that Asuka fused himself with the Tome of Origin, which we know to be a Low 1-C McGuffin and thus supports this scaling. And the Scales of Juno and Flame of Corruption (Ky and Sol) are verbatim able to stop Merged I-No

Lastly, this is something I remembered just now, but them not being able to do lasting damage to her is also because of her regeneration. She shrugs off being stabbed by Ky for this very reason. That's why they need to target her right hand - because targeting her weak spot hampers her regeneration. Sol even notes that even if he blasts her away with the Zeal-Powered Outrage and doesn't hit her weak spot, it won't mean anything (because she'll be able to heal it off).

 

[Armorchompy]

Lastly, this is something I remembered just now, but them not being able to do lasting damage to her is also because of her regeneration. She shrugs off being stabbed by Ky for this very reason. That's why they need to target her right hand - because targeting her weak spot hampers her regeneration. Sol even notes that even if he blasts her away with the Zeal-Powered Outrage and doesn't hit her weak spot, it won't mean anything (because she'll be able to heal it off).

To that I would retort that they didn't do zero lasting damage, they just did no damage. Like DI Ky impaled her, and even though that did nothing in the long run, that is indicative of scaling, whereas everyone else doesn't even scratch her, as far as we can tell.

 

[CloverDragon03]

To that I would retort that they didn't do zero lasting damage, they just did no damage. Like DI Ky impaled her, and even though that did nothing in the long run, that is indicative of scaling, whereas everyone else doesn't even scratch her, as far as we can tell.

My issue with your approach is that it implies damaging someone is the only way you can have any sort of scaling to someone. I disagree with the notion, for instance, that Nago's clash with her doesn't grant him scaling.

And then there's still the matter of Asuka...

 

[CloverDragon03]

Btw if we go with "possibly/likely Low 1-C" for the others, I'd like for the "possibly Low 1-C" ratings for the likes of Chipp, Testament, etc. to be removed since that would be possibly scaling to a possibly rating. They'll probably just be left the way they are now

(Funnily enough though, Bridget would get a "possibly Low 1-C" rating still because her scaling is from DI Ky, who is agreed to straight up be Low 1-C)

 

[Armorchompy]

My issue with your approach is that it implies damaging someone is the only way you can have any sort of scaling to someone. I disagree with the notion, for instance, that Nago's clash with her doesn't grant him scaling.

Well it's less "you shouldn't scale to someone without damaging them" and more "you shouldn't scale to someone if you can't damage them"

And then there's still the matter of Asuka...

I mean he's not currently scaled to Low 1-C outside of the book, his stats are still tier 5/4, I don't know what exactly you mean by this since I don't really know what his deal is at all but if he wasn't scaled to Low 1-C before I don't see why his presence changes things.

(Funnily enough though, Bridget would get a "possibly Low 1-C" rating still because her scaling is from DI Ky, who is agreed to straight up be Low 1-C)

Honestly good for her : )

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well it's less "you shouldn't scale to someone without damaging them" and more "you shouldn't scale to someone if you can't damage them"

Well to begin with, they don't even really land hits on her, so we're just going off of what we do see - including a direct clash between Nago and Merged I-No

I mean he's not currently scaled to Low 1-C outside of the book, his stats are still tier 5/4, I don't know what exactly you mean by this since I don't really know what his deal is at all but if he wasn't scaled to Low 1-C before I don't see why his presence changes things.

Because in Strive, he actually fused himself with said Low 1-C book. It's a reason why I'm proposing that Asuka becomes Low 1-C in Strive

Honestly good for her : )

True!

 

[Armorchompy]

Well to begin with, they don't even really land hits on her, so we're just going off of what we do see - including a direct clash between Nago and Merged I-No

But we know they can't hurt her, they all agree with that and if they could it'd be silly to be staking all their bets on the one shot Sol has rather than just, trying to cut up her hand.

Because in Strive, he actually fused himself with said Low 1-C book. It's a reason why I'm proposing that Asuka becomes Low 1-C in Strive

If that does actually empower him and the reasoning is solid enough to scale him and those who fight him 100% to Low 1-C, sure, but that's a separate thing, I dunno how it changes this situation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

But we know they can't hurt her, they all agree with that and if they could it'd be silly to be staking all their bets on the one shot Sol has rather than just, trying to cut up her hand.

Even Sol's attack they were betting on, self-admittedly, would've amounted to nothing because of her regeneration, so I don't see why it couldn't be because of that

If that does actually empower him and the reasoning is solid enough to scale him and those who fight him 100% to Low 1-C, sure, but that's a separate thing, I dunno how it changes this situation.

Well we don't get much elaboration, admittedly, since it's only revealed in the final chapter. But it is referred to as an actual fusion, which would lead me to believe he has its power within him

 

[Armorchompy]

Even Sol's attack they were betting on, self-admittedly, would've amounted to nothing because of her regeneration, so I don't see why it couldn't be because of that

The reason that was such an issue for Sol is that he had just one shot, whereas everyone else can attack freely. It'd still be an issue but that'd honestly make relying on Sol even weirder.

Well we don't get much elaboration, admittedly, since it's only revealed in the final chapter. But it is referred to as an actual fusion, which would lead me to believe he has its power within him

maybe he just felt a lil hungry and ate it, who knows

Jokes aside IDK, that does sound like it could be straightforward enough for an amp, but idk

 

[CloverDragon03]

The reason that was such an issue for Sol is that he had just one shot, whereas everyone else can attack freely. It'd still be an issue but that'd honestly make relying on Sol even weirder.

I don't see how this addresses what I'm saying, though. Even the big attack that finished off I-No wouldn't have amounted to anything if her regeneration wasn't hampered, so why wouldn't the lack of an ability to hurt her come down to her regeneration?

maybe he just felt a lil hungry and ate it, who knows

Bro what?

For context (it's early in Chapter 9 if you wanna check), what we know is that it was a magic-based fusion of Asuka and the Tome, which he did as he believed it was the most effective way to keep it away from Happy Chaos (as Happy Chaos, I-No, and the Tome are what are needed for I-No to achieve her god form)

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't see how this addresses what I'm saying, though. Even the big attack that finished off I-No wouldn't have amounted to anything if her regeneration wasn't hampered, so why wouldn't the lack of an ability to hurt her come down to her regeneration?

I don't think the idea is the attack negated her regeneration, it's just that by striking at that weak point it caused damage she couldn't regen

Bro what?

idk man i'm tired

For context (it's early in Chapter 9 if you wanna check), what we know is that it was a magic-based fusion of Asuka and the Tome, which he did as he believed it was the most effective way to keep it away from Happy Chaos (as Happy Chaos, I-No, and the Tome are what are needed for I-No to achieve her god form)

I may give it a look tomorrow, busy working on some other stuff rn.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think the idea is the attack negated her regeneration, it's just that by striking at that weak point it caused damage she couldn't regen

Okay, I'll say in advance that I'm going off of memory and I'll actually look for the scan and post it when I find it, but I recall that Happy Chaos has regeneration as well and that it would be hampered if his weak point was struck at. So if this is true, it would seem more that striking at the weak point negates regen

If I find that this isn't the case, I'll say as such btw

idk man i'm tired

I may give it a look tomorrow, busy working on some other stuff rn.

Take your time, no worries. With how contentious this thread is, I'm absolutely in no rush

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay, I'll say in advance that I'm going off of memory and I'll actually look for the scan and post it when I find it, but I recall that Happy Chaos has regeneration as well and that it would be hampered if his weak point was struck at. So if this is true, it would seem more that striking at the weak point negates regen

I mean that's sorta the same thing, no? If you destroy that part of the body they die, which means they don't regen. What I was saying is that the regen neg wasn't a special property of the Zeal Capsules, but something that any sufficiently strong attack would be able to replicate.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean that's sorta the same thing, no? If you destroy that part of the body they die, which means they don't regen. What I was saying is that the regen neg wasn't a special property of the Zeal Capsules, but something that any sufficiently strong attack would be able to replicate.

I was thinking more "if you destroy that part of the body, they'll survive but they can't regen," but again I'll look into it and report back when I have time

 

[CloverDragon03]

Alright, so I did end up finding the scan. It says that Happy Chaos is able to regenerate, aside from his right hand, which is a weak point. This suggests that destroying the weak point doesn't just kill them instantly or anything, but rather, they just can't regenerate if it's destroyed.

It also says something that supports these ratings, as it says that having absorbed half of I-No (referring to her godlike state, because that's her true self that Happy Chaos had absorbed half of), he has access to the omnipotent power she possesses. I've made this addition to Happy Chaos's justification as well, as it's very good supporting evidence

 

[CloverDragon03]

Le bump

 

[Ikelaggan]

Huh, it feels like we gone full circle back to everyone now In strive getting low 1-C when the verse had this type of upgrade more on accident and then a downgrade on the same year Strive came out which is kinda ironic. Off topic thou but anji mito definitely doesn't scale to genna in anyway shape of the form physically cause he gets clipped by a piece falling apart gear flesh on page 4 not the whole ship which he gets one shotted by anyway. Which is kinda sad to just scape up that scaling yet Tyr let alone the zepp army don't even have profiles yet they're the only ones that actually scale to it is funny like asking if any of the books or novels are cannon or not even though guilty Gear extra manga is just extended cannon that no one asked if it was cannon. Which probably explains why nobody bothered giving Tyr or mizuha profiles yet. But if you wanna split wad of knowledge try evading stuff titled guilty Gear anthology or 4Koma kings by DNA media. Those are just licensed comedy books.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Anji scaling stuff is irrelevant to this thread, and regardless of whether it's "come full circle" or what have you, I don't think that says much about the thread's contents

 

[Ikelaggan]

Anji scaling stuff is irrelevant to this thread, and regardless of whether it's "come full circle" or what have you, I don't think that says much about the thread's contents

The only problem that'll probably rear it's head at least on topic is if this still even low 1-C anymore, cause the one problem that even I didn't admit on is that no one ever begged the question "is it 5D or 6D?" since due to miscommunication between me, Milly rocking and ultima that never got fully resolved 100% we just agreed underworld hill transcends Time and but didn't come to a conclusion if the backyard upscaled or not since underworld hill isn't an almighty dimension like the backyard. Which was at the time when low 1-C was still merged with 5D and 6D making it pretty ambiguous and left up in the air for everyone else to decide if the dimensional tiering was this high or not .

 

[CloverDragon03]

I never did anything regarding Underworld Hill, because vague "transcending time" statements don't give a higher dimension on their own. The Backyard is just 5-D, since it's a verbatim stated higher-dimensional world that defines the laws of the living world

 

[Ikelaggan]

I never did anything regarding Underworld Hill, because vague "transcending time" statements don't give a higher dimension on their own. The Backyard is just 5-D, since it's a verbatim stated higher-dimensional world that defines the laws of the living world

Ehh, outside of that I tried spit balling for 1-A backyard with transfinite infinite hyper spaces created from the backyard since it can change the laws of the world. (This was the 2019 version of 1-A that actually used transfinitism). I'd honestly be surprised if anyone actually took the one I-No statement as actual R>F, but ironically the Plot induced stupidity of Strive story making her even lose would probably disqualify her faster than buggs bunny.

 

[Planck69]

Having discussed things with CloverDragon03 privately and seen the sandbox adjustments, I agree with an outright Low 1-C rating now.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I should note that any private discussions I had involved information that I already shared here (stuff like Happy Chaos's statement from a few posts ago), as I just wanted to inform them of such statements coming to light

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, I suppose the HC bit is pretty straightforward

 

[DarkGrath]

I've been asked to provide input here.

I think a "Likely Low 1-C" would have been more suitable to clean up the rough edges and ambiguities that have been brought up thus far with the scaling. But I'd rather not be a pedant over what is a decent enough justification overall. I wouldn't oppose a definitive rating.

 

[Planck69]

We seem to have gotten enough input. I'll be applying the changes on Clover's behalf.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, stomach's not doing so well. I'm trying to rest mainly, so I might be able to help a little, but don't count on it. Sorry for the inconvenience