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Griffith Revisions

Monarch_Laciel

VS Battles
Retired
21,783
4,826
Two main things.

First, Griffith's AP via reality warping is currently listed at High 6-A due to using Ganishka as a medium to merge the Astral World with the physical world. This is incorrect.

What happens is that as Griffith is leaning over Ganishka's 'heart' so to speak, the Skull Knight slices open a dimensional tear ( portal) behind Grifftih with his Sword of Actuation (or Sword of Resonance depending on your translation) and appears behind him . The Skull Knight then uses the Sword of Actuation to attack Griffith , but Griffith manipulates space and redirects the sword strike into the Ascended Ganishka , who had "tapped the depths of the Astral World" through his artifical Behelit and become "Shiva", the Kushan God. The power of the Skull Knight's Sword of Actuation entering Ascended Ganishka causes (according to the wiki) "a chain reaction that opens a fissure into the Astral Plane that instantly killed the tyrant while a bright and warm light exploded from his husk . The light ... engulfed the entire world within minutes . This caused the astral plane, a realm normally concealed from humanity, to overlap with the material world."

Nowhere in either the manga or the wiki is it even inferred that Griffith did that with his own power. In fact, lore makes it even clearer he did not. If he or any of the Godhand (who should have comparable power) had been able to merge the Mortal and Astral World, they would have done it before this moment, as this is clearly the goal they have been leading up to for a while (or at least a step in a goal).

For a bit more information, the Skull Knight's Sword of Actuation is his Thorn Sword which has been agumented by him absorbing and merging Behelits with it. The Behelits are used to create Insterstices (places where the worlds merge) between the human world and the Astral World so the Godhand can transform a person into an Apostle. That is the power of the Behelit - to merge the two worlds at a certain location. The Skull Knight's Sword of Actuation is made up of the countless Behelits the Skull Knight has merged with his sword, and it is capable of opening dimensional tears to create portals between the Astral World and the physical world. This is the power that caused the entire world to be made an insterstice, not Griffith. All Griffith did was redirect the sword's blow into Ganishka using spacial manipulation so that the sword's power would spread throughout the whole of the astral and mortal worlds.

Secondly, Griffith is stated to have "possible acausality" for being likened to someone who "exists outside the story". This in no way shows acausality, and is simply a metaphor meant to show Guts how Griffith exists beyond the physical world as he resides in the Astral World - he is not beyond causality itself. It could possibly show resistance to fate and plot manipulation if we were to take it literally (which I wouldn't). But it does not show acausality. Additionally, the Idea of Evil is the overlord of fate and causality, and is the being who gave Griffith and the rest of the Godhand their powers, so it is not only far above them, but it also makes no sense for them to be acausal. There is no reason the Idea of Evil would make its servants immune to its own power. Also, there is this . Even after Griffith joins the Godhand, the IoE still controls Griffith's destiny. So he cannot be acausal. The only reason one could consider Griffith acausal is in the sense that he uses his own causality manipulation to defend himself against causality manipulation, which is not proper acausality.

So my belief is that Griffith's AP with causality manip and reality warping should be changed to unknown, and his acausality should be removed.

Edit: Additionally, the Causality Manipulation of the Godhand is more akin to low-level fate manipulation than the high level causality manipulation I've seen people make it out to be.

This is the Idea of Evil's explanation of how he manipulated fate to make Griffith come about . It 'influenced the lower level of human consciousness' to to 'create the lineage' (pushed his ancestors into hooking up). And "manipulated history and created an appropriate context". The quote "manipulated history" on its own doesn't actually show any level of the IoE/Godhand's destiny/causality manipulation either, as plenty of secret societies and immortals in fiction have said similar statements, and they manipulated history in a purely mundane way. (NOTE: I am NOT saying the IoE doesn't have fate/causality manipulation. It is obvious it does. I am just saying its a lot less powerful than I've seen people make it out to be, where they assume its on the level of Ywach's Almighty future manipulation)

Furthermore, according to the Berserk wiki, this is how Beserk defines causality:

Causality is the law of cause and effect in the world of Berserk. It is a force that influences a person's situation and even emotional states, which are tempered through years of careful, causal manipulation.

"Years of careful causal manipulation" - Causality manipulation in beserk isn't something that can just be done immediately. Their causality manipulation is more similar to low level fate manipulation, subtly guiding events over the course of history by messing with emotional states and many minor yet cumulative events. It isn't on the level of Ywach's Full Power Almighty, a similar fate/causality manipulation ability. So while their powers might work in the Berserkverse where the Godhand have been watching the future and manipulating fate for centuries, its going to be a lot less effective in a suddent and spontaneous arbitrary VS battle between only two people. Aditionally, it says that the force of causality influences empathetic states, so resistance to empathetic/mind manipulation can lessen its influence over someone.

So it should be added as a note to Griffith's profile that his causality/fate manipulation is of limited use in battle
 
Also, I have read this thread, but I disagree with Griffith being acausal. Again, the quote from SK describing his powers simply shows how he now exists on the Astral/Ideal world rather than the Mortal world, which is what it means by outside the story, the story being the history and events of the mortal world. Existing in a one world so you are unaffected by causality in another does not make you acausal. Griffith being depicted as the author writing events is talking about how he, like the rest of the Godhand, can manipulate the fate and causality of the Mortal World to achieve a desired "story". Skull Knight's claim that to defeat Griffith, Guts must also be "outside the story" refers to how Guts must also ascend to the Astral World if he wishes to defeat Griffith, not that Griffith must become acausal.

There is also a claim in that thread that because the IoE says Griffith is "a part of me" and therefore Griffith must be acausal. What this fails to mention is that the full quote is "you are a part of your kind's consciousness, a part of me". By that logic, every human in Berserk would be acausal - which we know for a fact is not true.
 
Agreed, the whole Skull Knight speech could also simply be incorrect. as Griffith is still pretty much vulnerable to causality e.g Griffith's incarnation ceremony and how using Guts' child as a vessel is not doing him any favours (see his dialogue in the hill of swords.)
 
In really skull knight use a dimensional slicer and griff use spatial manipulation to redirect the attack.
 
So, which revisions are each of you agreeing with? The AP downgrades, the acausality removal, the note on his causality/fate manipulation, or all of them?
 
I agree with downgrading Griffith and the other god hand members from high 6-A. But your other "revisions" are downplay in my opinion. I respond in detail later.
 
The chapter where they talked was removed from print because it gave away too much of the story too quickly, but I don't believe it was retconned. The author just didn't want to show it yet
 
There is a god of the abyss in Berserk, as seen by the end of Episode 82. But we don't know it's exact nature anymore, as the events in Episode 83 are no longer canon (as a result of being taken out of the volume release.) And if we were to stick with it, events in the story such as Griffith being dealt a bad hand by causality (the child making him retain feelings for Casca and Guts) wouldn't make sense when you consider that the Idea of Evil is giving its own subordinates weaknesses.
 
XBlackExcellenceX said:
You're literally using a statement off the berserk wikia to downplay Griffith's causality manipulation. "Years of careful causality manipulation". This was never stated in the manga.
Never stated true, but the only application of causality manipulation we've seen is the IoE's explanation of how he created Griffith using low-level fate manipulation, and that isn't even canon anymore, so not only have we never seen a more combat orientated use of causality manipulation either, we haven't seen any uses of it at all. It would be severe NLF to assume its capabilities to be on par with high level causality manipulation. All we've seen from Griffith are spatial manipulation, flight, wind manipulation and telekinesis
 
Additionally, different terms can refer to different things in fiction. Causality in Berserk does not refer to the relationship of cause and effect, it refers to the flow of fate. There is a vast difference between standing outside of fate and standing outside of causality.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Never stated true, but the only application of causality manipulation we've seen is the IoE's explanation of how he created Griffith using low-level fate manipulation, and that isn't even canon anymore, so not only have we never seen a more combat orientated use of causality manipulation either, we haven't seen any uses of it at all.
As Austrian-Man-Meat stated above, Idea has been retconned because the author himself didn't want to reveal it yet. So using it to justify a downgrade is just wrong. Also there's no such thing as low level fate manipulation, either you manipulate it or you don't.
 
That's why we have fate manipulation as a page right?

Whether you're manipulating someone's immediate or distant future it's still fate manipulation.
 
There is such thing as levels of fate manipulation. There's a difference between Berserk's fate manipulation which manipulates the subconscious and minor cumulative events over centuries (low level), Magi's fate manipulation which is basically global mind control (mid-level), and Yhwach or Yukari's fate manipulation that just instantly creates the future you want (high level).

Edit: the fate manipulation page even states "More subtle forms of the ability can simply nudge events in the users favor while more powerful variations can make it possible to ordain one's victory against their opponent." If that doesn't show there are levels of fate manipulation, I don't know what does.

And in response to "justifying a downgrade with a retcon", you are correct, that shouldn't be done. (everybody on the thread, ignore everything I've said based on chapter 83). But giving someone as hax an ability as high-level causality manipulation based on statements alone, especially when Causality in Berserk refers to the flow of fate rather than the relationship between cause and effect, should also not be done.
 
Can the change from High 6-A to Unknown be added now, or should I wait for more staff and community input?
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Actually, does Griffith even have Reality Warping without the world merging feat? I don't remember any other instances of him warping reality
High level causality manipulation is comparable to reality warping.
 
I suppose one can say distorting space-time can count as reality warping.

"And in response to justifying a downgrade with a retcon, you are correct, that shouldn't be done."

How come? The events of Episode 83 are no longer canon; as a result, the abilities the IoE has (based on what it said) should be removed as a result. Because as far as we are concerned, they're events which haven't happened at all anymore. And to say that it was only removed for it "revealing too much" doesn't really mean anything; may not even be the case as events later down the line seem to make the IoE different than what it had been portrayed as before. Because as I've already said, what would the IoE gain from giving Griffith a handicap so detrimental Guts may have a chance of cutting him down?

But we do know one thing, and that's the fact that the beherits have a master. And that master/creator is the Idea of Evil, as suggested by the events of Episode 82. So I suppose there is manipulation of causality present, to some extent.
 
There's definitely causality manipulation in berserk, hell the OP literally was trying to use the Causality page on the berserk wikia to downgrade the verse. But now he's saying that causality manipulation doesn't exist in the verse.
 
I disagree with the notion that causality manipulation doesn't exist within Berserk, my post explaining the IoE being the master/creator of the beherits being my reasoning.
 
@Austrian-Man-Meat What I meant by "not justifying a downgrade with a retcon", I was previously justifying the downgrade to Griffith's causality manipulation by giving the example of the IoE's causaliy manipulation from chapter 83 (which is really just fate manipulation). But if that chapter is gone, then we have no other showings of causality manipulation, so griffith shouldn't have it anyway.

Anyway, so I can change "High 6-A via reality warping" to "Unknown via spatial manipulation" ?

@XBlackExcellenceX I'm not saying 'causality' doesn't exist in the verse, I'm saying that in Berserk, causality refers to the flow of fate and destiny, not the relationship between cause and effect as we know it.
 
"which is really just fate manipulation"

Fate and causality manipulation are one and the same, not sure why people would think there's a difference; if you think there is, please elaborate. Also, the IoE in that chapter quite literally states "I manipulated history".

"then we have no other showings of causality manipulation"

Not sure I agree with you here, as the fate of beherits is entirely left up to the master who sent it into the physical world (the idea of evil.) Something like this must surely be the manipulation of causality.
 
Causality Manipulation is control of the relationship between cause and effect.

Fate manipulation is the control of the future of something.

Fate manipulation tends to focused around preordaining things and making it so that events end up in your favour, and is usually limited to events that could actually happen normally, fate manipulation just makes certain they do, while causality manipulation is all about making things happen before they are caused and making causes result in effects they wouldn't normally result in. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

Like most warpy-type powers, at high enough levels the differences between them become irrelevant, as you can make the fate of the world to spontaneously warp into a new one, or link the cause of a world's existence to the effect of spontaneously warping into a new one, (just like you could use reality warping to spontaneously warp the world into an new one or you could rewrite concepts to change the world into a new one, etc), but that tends to be EXTREMELY high level, something Berserk hasn't ever shown. At lower levels of power, there is an important difference between Fate and Causality Manipulation.

The image you linked is an example of fate manipulation "the fate associated with it... governs human fate", not causality manipuation.
 
So I can make the first change now then?

High 6-A via Reality Warping" becomes "Unknown via fate/causality manipulation"
 
I think we can at the very least assume the God Hand are above Guts. So something like "Unknown, at least 8-C possibly far higher"
 
How is there any discussion to be said here? Every thing that happened in Berserk can't be caused via fate manipulation.

•The existence of Beherits

•The Eclipse

•Griffith control over reality being compared to an author.

•The World's Transformation

Just because the God Hand only manipulate the future doesn't mean it's fate manipulation. Both abilities control the future but only can causality manipulation change reality.
 
They could have creation or still have reality warping. They are meant to be "god's hand" after all. Not everything they do needs to be causality based. Causality Manipulaion is a really, really hax ability. If we can explain their abilities in another simpler way, possibly low-balling them is a lot better than massively high balling them. Nothing we have seen from them so far can only be explained as "causality manipulation", and considering the berserk verse's different definition of causality to our definition, that just makes it even more complicated.

Anyway so "At least 8-B (should be superior to Guts) , likely far higher" for Griffith'a tier?
 
Monarch Laciel said:
They could have creation or still have realty warping. They are meant to be "god's hand" after all.
The only display of reality warping was the World's transformation. Which you just debunked. But as I stated above, high level causality manipulation is basically reality warping.

Anyway so "At least 8-C, likely far higher" ?

Yeah
 
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