Gray Fullbuster VS Invincible

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

Gray Fullbuster (Fairy Tail) VS Invincible (Image Comics)

Both are High 6-A (X793 Gray and Post-Resurrections Invincible are used here)

Speed is equalized

Gray Fullbuster:

Invincible: 1 (FireSwordHero)

Inconclusive:

 

[Popted2]

like unless Invincible has a good ap advantage, Gray has everything else, more hax, more combat experience and skill

so i vote Gray

 

[LordGinSama]

like unless Invincible has a good ap advantage, Gray has everything else, more hax, more combat experience and skill

so i vote Gray

Gray definitely doesn't have more combat experience or skill.


Gray doesn't scale to Natsu's best skill feats while EoS Mark scales above Nolan's best skill feats. Also Gray can't bypass the resistance that Viltrumites have, and a fodder level Viltrumite has resistance to AZ so ice-make is basically useless.

 

[Popted2]

Gray definitely doesn't have more combat experience or skill.


Gray doesn't scale to Natsu's best skill feats while EoS Mark scales above Nolan's best skill feats. Also Gray can't bypass the resistance that Viltrumites have, and a fodder level Viltrumite has resistance to AZ so ice-make is basically useless.

i see, thanks for the clarification Gin

 

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

Bump

 

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

Bump

 

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

Bump

 

[FireSwordHero]

Tough choice tbh

But to give a unbiased view, Im just going to clarify each characters strengths and Weaknesses

Invincible:
AP: 1.3 Petatons (Low End), 11.3 Petatons (Mid-End), 35 Petatons (High End)

• (+) Much Stronger than Gray if high end calcs are used (35 petatons).
• (+) Still stronger than base Gray if mid end calcs are used (11.3 petatons) though potentially weaker than Gray with Devil Slayer Mark (more on that later)
• (+) Both calcs are obtained from earlier keys, and EOS Invincible is overall much stronger due to the power boost he got from Atom Eve.
• (+) Flight means more mobility
• (+) Regen allows Invincible to shrug off any minor wounds Gray might land
• (+) Can hold his breath in space, meaning he could pick up Gray and fly him into space, resulting in victory by asphyxiation,
• (+) Due to longevity plus AZ resistance, Invincible could possibly outlast the Lost Ice Shell
• (-) ...Though depending on how long you think Iced Shell/Lost-Iced Shell lasts, potentially not
• (+) Can also possibly brute force his way out of ice (since Iced Shell is said to be un-meltable, not indestructible)
• (+) Gray needs some time to charge Iced Shell. Given Mark's straight forward approach to combat, this means that Mark could just deny him the opportunity to use it.
• (=) Can resist AZ aspect of Gray's attacks, though it does have a limit, though dubious as we have not seen AZ affecting Viltrumites unlike high temperatures (Gray may not also have AZs as canon is dubious)
• (-) Less versatility overall, though likely has more fighting experience
• (-) Weaker if low calcs are used (1.3 petatons)
• (*) Lost his dad, and eventually loses his mom
• (*) Struggle's to Think (,MARK, THINK!)

Gray
AP: 8.87 Petatons, potentially higher with Devil Slayer Mark.

• (+) Better versatility with ice magic.
• (+) Can create weaponry
• (+) Iced-Shell/Lost-Iced-shell could potentially be an insta-win depending on what you think the duration is.
• (-) But also maybe not...depending on what you think its maximum duration is, even with Lost version.
• (-) Iced Shell, both normal and Lost variants, take some time to charge, though Gray is smart enough combat wise to plan a way to ensure he can use it.
• (+) Stronger if low end Invincible is used. In addition, the empowerment Devil Slayer Mark could potentially make him comparable to the next tier of Fairy Tale characters, making him Stronger than Mid-End Invincible (17.74 Petatons) (Not Confirmable though as the amp increase is unconfirmed)
• (-) Much Weaker than Invincible if High-end is used, still weaker in base form if Mid-End Invincible is used.
• (+) AZ, while not immediate, could allow Gray to wear down Invincible through extremely cold temperatures, messing with his Smart Atoms.
• (-) May not have AZ as its canon is dubious (up to you whether it is included)
• (-) Even then, Lack of regen means Gray will likely lose a war of attrition.
• (-) Less mobility.
• (-) Can't breathe in space (I mean invincible can't either, but the latter can last for much longer)
• (*) Gray is too sexy for his shirt and it HURTS
• (*) Is an Orphan, and his mother figure got turned into a icicle (LMAO)

 

[FireSwordHero]

As for my verdict, Im probably going to give the W to Invincible. Overall, I think he has the AP advantage, Resistances, and a few certain Wincons that I overall think Invincible takes the win more times than not, though its not a complete stomp.

 

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

Bump

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Gray’s ice (if we are scaling it to Invel’s True-Ice Kamui) is beyond even AZ so Mark’s resistance wouldn’t cover this.

On the skill stuff, Natsu who can learn Sting and Rogue’s entire move set after seeing them throw some punches, and predicts and reacts to people that speed blitz him through his nose. Gray was able to equally match Natsu with an additional year of pure training over the one who performed the above at the start of X792.

And most importantly, which number does Mark actually scale to?

 

[LordGinSama]

Regarding AZ, even the weakest of Viltrumites have a resistance to AZ, stronger Viltrumite posses have higher resistances. EOS Mark's resistance could potentially have another layer to that given that Atom Eve built herself and Mark to be vastly superior than before.


I'll get into skill later.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Do they have feats of resisting colder than AZ or statements of such? Cuz if they don’t, True Ice would one shot.

Take your time.

 

[FireSwordHero]

Gray’s ice (if we are scaling it to Invel’s True-Ice Kamui) is beyond even AZ so Mark’s resistance wouldn’t cover this.

The statement of True Kamui being beyond zero is dubious at best as it was taken from some weekly shonen magazine. Even then, logically speaking, that statement would be false as AZ is the temperature where there is virtually no energy in motion, or at least no energy released as heat. You can't go past Absolute Zero because there is no more kinetic or thermal energy AT absolute zero.

Cuz if they don’t, True Ice would one shot.

Even then, the idea that True Ice Kamui would one shot is laughable at best, since even basic level viltrumites have a resistance to High temperatures and AZ that is hard to get through - it requires constant exposure to said elements for it to have any sort of long lasting damage, since Omniman could take hits from a guy with laser vision (who could disintegrate normal humans) without much issue, and even then they could just regen from if it didn't fully kill them. Hell, Invincible was shown to survive being in the sun for a prolonged time in his fight against Thragg (which invincible ended up regenerating from anyway), both whom were top tier viltrumites, so scaling their increased heat resistance to their AZ resistance (since they its their cells that have this resistance), its likely that Invincible would be able to survive AZ for a much prolonged time, even if True Ice Kamui was somehow "beyond zero".

Even then, though this may be seen as NLF, its only been stated that high temperatures can destroy the smart atoms of a viltrumite, with no statements or feats to suggest that AZ could do the same. Again, likely NLF, but I do want to point it out since its neither been stated or shown that AZ would destroy viltrumite cells.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The statement of True Kamui being beyond zero is dubious at best as it was taken from some weekly shonen magazine. Even then, logically speaking, that statement would be false as AZ is the temperature where there is virtually no energy in motion, or at least no energy released as heat. You can't go past Absolute Zero because there is no more kinetic or thermal energy AT absolute zero.

… how does it coming from a magazine that publishes the FT manga make it dubious at all? You realise the statement is from the manga right? Those stuff along the sides of a panel telling you what is happening in the story. And you forget this is fiction where people go FTL. Stuff not being scientifically accurate doesn’t mean shit.

Even then, the idea that True Ice Kamui would one shot is laughable at best, since even basic level viltrumites have a resistance to High temperatures and AZ that is hard to get through - it requires constant exposure to said elements for it to have any sort of long lasting damage, since Omniman could take hits from a guy with laser vision (who could disintegrate normal humans) without much issue, and even then they could just regen from if it didn't fully kill them. Hell, Invincible was shown to survive being in the sun for a prolonged time in his fight against Thragg (which invincible ended up regenerating from anyway), both whom were top tier viltrumites, so scaling their increased heat resistance to their AZ resistance (since they its their cells that have this resistance), its likely that Invincible would be able to survive AZ for a much prolonged time, even if True Ice Kamui was somehow "beyond zero".

Prove Viltrumites have superior resistances if they are stronger. You can also prove that strpnger ones straight up resist AZ forever while you’re at it. Then you can prove that they resist something even colder than AZ.

Requiring prolonged exposure for AZ to get through the resistance doesn’t make the resistance more impressive, it makes it less. If X needs 1 minute of being blasted by a flamethrower for his resistance to be overcome compared to Y whose resistance simply can’t be overcome by the flamethrower, the latter is much more impressive.

1. Disintegrating normal humans isn’t impressive at all. Guys in FT can passively vaporise rock, sand, 4x20 kilometre wide lakes etc
2. The Sun’s temperature isn’t impressive here either. Wahl can cause his magic to reach 200 million kelvin while Natsu’s flames (that Gray was able to withstand) are far in excess of that.
3. Why does heat resistance matter at all??? It has nothing to do with resisting the cold and if you really want to scale heat and cold to each other, resisting AZ is way better than basically dying from a minute in the sun.

Even then, though this may be seen as NLF, its only been stated that high temperatures can destroy the smart atoms of a viltrumite, with no statements or feats to suggest that AZ could do the same. Again, likely NLF, but I do want to point it out since its neither been stated or shown that AZ would destroy viltrumite cells.

It’ll be seen as NLF because it is. Ganondorf is stated to only be able to be beaten by someone with the Master Sword and it’s stated that only a Mangekyo Sharingan can defeat a Mangekyo Sharingan. You bout to start arguing Solo King Itachi stomps fiction or that Ganon will never lose to somebody not Link?

It doesn’t need to be stated or shown that a slice of life protag can be killed by a bullet to the head if they don’t have the feats to prove otherwise.

 

[FireSwordHero]

It’ll be seen as NLF because it is. Ganondorf is stated to only be able to be beaten by someone with the Master Sword and it’s stated that only a Mangekyo Sharingan can defeat a Mangekyo Sharingan. You bout to start arguing Solo King Itachi stomps fiction or that Ganon will never lose to somebody not Link?

No im not, and frick you for suggesting that. Im not suggesting someone like ganon can't be defeated by other holy weapons or itachi is invincible (pun not intended), but I do think that since its been stated in source material that viltrumites can resist both AZ and High heat, but only the heat has been explained and shown how they destroy viltrumite cells (destabilization of DNA), I don't think its likely that AZ will cause the same destabilization that heat can do to viltrumites, since AZ is specifically a lack of heat. Given that viltrumate cells can move energy in order to resist extreme changes in temeperature, I think Invincible could resist Gray's attacks long enough to land a killing blow.
Also, all the resistances apply to basic level viltrumites, which EOS invincible surpasses. Not only that, but his body was empowered by Atom Eve to be stronger after his near death by Thragg. So yeah, I think he can surpass AZ, at least long enough to win.

Prove Viltrumites have superior resistances if they are stronger. You can also prove that stronger ones straight up resist AZ forever while you’re at it. Then you can prove that they resist something even colder than AZ.

Legitimately I can't, since its only stated within source material. Then again, you are using a statement to suggest Gray's Ice is AZ so.....

Requiring prolonged exposure for AZ to get through the resistance doesn’t make the resistance more impressive, it makes it less. If X needs 1 minute of being blasted by a flamethrower for his resistance to be overcome compared to Y whose resistance simply can’t be overcome by the flamethrower, the latter is much more impressive.

1. Disintegrating normal humans isn’t impressive at all. Guys in FT can passively vaporise rock, sand, 4x20 kilometre wide lakes etc
2. The Sun’s temperature isn’t impressive here either. Wahl can cause his magic to reach 200 million kelvin while Natsu’s flames (that Gray was able to withstand) are far in excess of that.
3. Why does heat resistance matter at all??? It has nothing to do with resisting the cold and if you really want to scale heat and cold to each other, resisting AZ is way better than basically dying from a minute in the sun.

I don't get the whole point of this, but the whole point of my argument is that with Invincible natural resistance to AZ, which all vitrumites have, his power surpassing that of normal viltrumites and the power boost he got from Atom Eve, Invincible could likely take the win before Gray's ice overwhelms him, and that the True Ice Kamui would not "oneshot" Invincible like you think it can. Given that Invicible is stronger in most placements of his power (Mid-High end), AZ can't be the only factor that would end the fight.

Speaking of AZ...

… how does it coming from a magazine that publishes the FT manga make it dubious at all? You realise the statement is from the manga right? Those stuff along the sides of a panel telling you what is happening in the story. And you forget this is fiction where people go FTL. Stuff not being scientifically accurate doesn’t mean shit.

The "statement" used comes from a shonen editor weekly quote, which although publishing the manga should not be considered the same viewpoint as the writer for fairy tale. Aside from that, its not stated in the manga itself or other source material that invel's ice goes "beyond" absolute zero, and even then the statement given could more or less be seen as hyperbole or an exaggeration. Gray does mention that invel's ice is colder than his own, but that could just be due to a difference in power types since Gray uses Ice-Make magic to create ice constructs while Invel primarily focuses on pure ice-magic, that is to say, freezing everything. I should also mention that gray only won that fight because he used his own ice make powers to turn Invel's own ice against him allowing him to shatter the true Ice Kamui. Not to say he didnt possibly copy it, but still.

TLDR; I personally don't think Gray should have AZ given the AZ quote was from somone who did publish the manga, but wasn't the writer of fairy tail. Even then, the quote can easily be seen as hyperbole.

Also, "scientifically accurate means jack shit"? We used scientific knowledge to suggest Invel could have an attack that is 200 Million Degrees Celsius in heat, and that Natsu scales to that. Despite the fact that natsu's flames have never shown that level of heat in either manga nor anime. In my opinion its a massive freaking outlier, but if you want to suggest that Natsu's flames could scale to being 363 times hotter than the surface of a sun due to science, then the same should be applied to Gray having AZ (assuming we use the dubious statement in the first place). And you can't go below AZ according to all known laws of science.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

No im not, and frick you for suggesting that. Im not suggesting someone like ganon can't be defeated by other holy weapons or itachi is invincible (pun not intended), but I do think that since its been stated in source material that viltrumites can resist both AZ and High heat, but only the heat has been explained and shown how they destroy viltrumite cells (destabilization of DNA), I don't think its likely that AZ will cause the same destabilization that heat can do to viltrumites, since AZ is specifically a lack of heat. Given that viltrumate cells can move energy in order to resist extreme changes in temeperature, I think Invincible could resist Gray's attacks long enough to land a killing blow.
Also, all the resistances apply to basic level viltrumites, which EOS invincible surpasses. Not only that, but his body was empowered by Atom Eve to be stronger after his near death by Thragg. So yeah, I think he can surpass AZ, at least long enough to win.

And I’m asking you to prove that resistances to hax correlate with the character’s strength. If you can’t do that, you are just arguing headcanon.

Legitimately I can't, since its only stated within source material. Then again, you are using a statement to suggest Gray's Ice is AZ so.....

And you understand that beyond AZ statement is in Gray’s source material too right? Difference is that the statement for my argument actually says what I am arguing, yours doesn’t.

I don't get the whole point of this, but the whole point of my argument is that with Invincible natural resistance to AZ, which all vitrumites have, his power surpassing that of normal viltrumites and the power boost he got from Atom Eve, Invincible could likely take the win before Gray's ice overwhelms him, and that the True Ice Kamui would not "oneshot" Invincible like you think it can. Given that Invicible is stronger in most placements of his power (Mid-High end), AZ can't be the only factor that would end the fight.

I know what you are trying to argue, I’m telling you to prove it. Beyond AZ > AZ. Mark is only stated to resist the latter, something that doesn’t apply to the former unless stated or shown.

Speaking of AZ...

The "statement" used comes from a shonen editor weekly quote, which although publishing the manga should not be considered the same viewpoint as the writer for fairy tale. Aside from that, its not stated in the manga itself or other source material that invel's ice goes "beyond" absolute zero, and even then the statement given could more or less be seen as hyperbole or an exaggeration. Gray does mention that invel's ice is colder than his own, but that could just be due to a difference in power types since Gray uses Ice-Make magic to create ice constructs while Invel primarily focuses on pure ice-magic, that is to say, freezing everything. I should also mention that gray only won that fight because he used his own ice make powers to turn Invel's own ice against him allowing him to shatter the true Ice Kamui. Not to say he didnt possibly copy it, but still.

TLDR; I personally don't think Gray should have AZ given the AZ quote was from somone who did publish the manga, but wasn't the writer of fairy tail. Even then, the quote can easily be seen as hyperbole.

An opinion … not relevant here. It’s in the manga and was accepted on the profile, that’s all that’s needed.

Also, "scientifically accurate means jack shit"? We used scientific knowledge to suggest Invel could have an attack that is 200 Million Degrees Celsius in heat, and that Natsu scales to that.

Wahl has the ability to create 200 million degrees Celsius, Invel’s basic ice can’t be melted by Wahl, Natsu melts his ice.

Despite the fact that natsu's flames have never shown that level of heat in either manga nor anime. In my opinion its a massive freaking outlier, but if you want to suggest that Natsu's flames could scale to being 363 times hotter than the surface of a sun due to science, then the same should be applied to Gray having AZ (assuming we use the dubious statement in the first place).

Huh? Ignoring the fact that Natsu’s fire temp has nothing to do with True-Ice, why would I randomly impose limit on the verse? Natsu’s fire isn’t limited by the 200 million degrees or science. If the next chapter of 100 YQ comes along and says that his flames surpass AH, I wouldn’t bat an eye at fiction going beyond irl science because that’s what this shit does. AZ is the complete lack of energy and causes matter to fall apart so Viltrumite smart cells still having energy means they aren’t at AZ. The science you are trying to argue here completely negs your own resistance argument. You can’t even say that there is a statement for viltrumites since there is a statement for True-Ice as well. If you accept one, you have to accept the other

And you can't go below AZ according to all known laws of science.

You clearly can’t read between the lines. We follow science but the limits for science are not the limits of fiction. Something being impossible irl doesn’t stop something from being possible in a story.

Tldr; All you’ve provided are arguments from incredulity. Science is not the be all, end all.

 

[FireSwordHero]

Well you know what? I don't care. I don't think Gray wins and Invincible does. That's my verdict.

Gray's statement of having AZ is taken from the quote of someone who doesn't even write the story and never again brought up anywhere in manga, by the dialogue written by the writers writers or other source material, and even the statement itself sounds like an exaggeration for being "beyond AZ", while source material for invincible states that Invincible can resist Absolute Zero temperatures, and if the fight between Invincible and Thragg demonstrates anything, is that it requires a considerable amount of exposure time to extreme temperatures before damage can be done to them. Even if Gray had AZ temperature ice, its only through the true ice kamui, meaning its unlikely he breaks out the move at the start of the fight. Even then, Invincible could resist it long enough to shatter the ice and score a winning blow. Invincible does have the AP advantage in mid end to high end calcs, and there are other verdicts that could give him the win.

Also for the part about it Gray having true ice being accepted on the profile? Its also accepted the statement is questionable. Therefore, until its 100% accepted by the community as fact, I will continue debating on Gray having AZ Ice as part of the verdict. And even if it was, I'm still gonna give my verdict on a dubiously canonical statement.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Well you know what? I don't care. I don't think Gray wins and Invincible does. That's my verdict.

Gray's statement of having AZ is taken from the quote of someone who doesn't even write the story and never again brought up anywhere in manga,

Still published in the source material and it doesn’t need to be brought up again when it doesn’t make sense. True-Ice being beyond AZ doesn’t need to be brought up more than once as it’s only there for one fight.

by the dialogue written by the writers writers or other source material, and even the statement itself sounds like an exaggeration for being "beyond AZ",

How is it an exaggeration? They list a temp and then state it’s even colder.

while source material for invincible states that Invincible can resist Absolute Zero temperatures,

So not good enough.

and if the fight between Invincible and Thragg demonstrates anything, is that it requires a considerable amount of exposure time to extreme temperatures before damage can be done to them.

That’s their heat resistance, not AZ. Not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Even if Gray had AZ temperature ice, its only through the true ice kamui, meaning its unlikely he breaks out the move at the start of the fight.

And what do you think he will do when Mark just smashes through the rest of his ice?

Even then, Invincible could resist it long enough to shatter the ice and score a winning blow.

Baseless assertion.

Invincible does have the AP advantage in mid end to high end calcs, and there are other verdicts that could give him the win.

And which number does he scale to? Until you find out which one, he scales to the lowest figure. Do list the other wincons.

Also for the part about it Gray having true ice being accepted on the profile? Its also accepted the statement is questionable. Therefore, until its 100% accepted by the community as fact, I will continue debating on Gray having AZ Ice as part of the verdict. And even if it was, I'm still gonna give my verdict on a dubiously canonical statement.

So you are just ignoring the profiles because you disagree with them? That’s what? Double standards, arguing from incredulity, ignoring scans so far? Lots of bias. Guess Imma just disagree with everything you bring up for Mark too … wait, I’m already doing that but unlike you, what I’ve argued is on the profile and actually stated to be the case and not unfounded conjecture.

 

[FireSwordHero]

TLDR. I gave my verdict for reasons I listed before, anyone else can make their own verdict. Using Grammarly to find synonyms for your replies isn't going to make me change my mind or prove me wrong, or make you appear intelligent.