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Grandmother Raven vs Magnus the Red

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What 2-A stuff does Magnus have? Is it allowed in the battle

Even if he does:

Raven has a few passive abilities, most notably her Power Nullification, which can nullify powerful Reality Warping and Matter Manipulation among abilities + Her omniscience should give her a very decent helping hand. Along with the fact that her mere existence is a passive effect on Law across existence, and if Magnus could resist her abilities, Shadow Magic could easily bypass that. But, she is more likely going to seal Magnus away, as that is her prefered option in battle, and even without that, she has many more ways of winning + She resists a lot of Mangus' abilities, to a very high degree at that.

I'll vote for Raven: Can bypass practically any resistances Magnus may have, Very powerful sealing that has worked on a Type 1 Abstract being who has type 4 and 5 Acausality, her mere existence being a passive effect on law across existence among other things and her abundance of resistances, which makes most of what Magnus can do null
 
Oh, according to the thread against Vecna he has 1-A immortality.

Alright: Even with that, I'm pretty sure stuff from my previous comment applies. Too many resistances in Raven's side, even against Conceptual levels of Magic, Chaos Manipulation etc, broken sealing, quite a few passive abilities among other stuff from what I previously said. Sticking to Raven
 
Mm. Definitely have some issues with these reasonings.

I'm very skeptical of power null being a major factor here. Magnus' power null resistance comes from the fact that his mere physical projection was more than enough to shrug off the influence of several entire squads of blanks before murdering them. For those who are unfamiliar with blanks, they are basically people with a sort of "anti-soul" that is a gaping hole in the immaterium, and has worse effects the stronger an individual's psychic powers are. Magnus, who at this point was both an alpha plus level psyker and a daemon, had some of his spells fizzle, but his general strength was unaffected. This is going up against people who are the antithesis to his entire existence and exist solely to completely and utterly nullify the powers of beings like him. A slightly less impressive (but still notable) instance involves him tearing through holy machines built specifically to be immune to his daemonic power set.

Law manipulation overriding the lawless, ever-shifting nature of the Warp is a big no, and I'm unsure of why just "shadow magic" would solve this issue.

Sealing seems like an extremely debatable wincon when one of Magnus' primary abilities is being able to move through the Warp, including its higher-dimensional and dimensionless sections.

It's all well and good if Raven resists a lot of Magnus' abilities, but the opposite is also true. None of this seems like a very solid reason for her to pull out a win, especially when she doesn't even seem to have high level Regenerationn.
 
I never made Power Null out to be a major factor tbh, I just said it's a pretty decent ability she has. If I were to talk about it though, her Power Null comes directly from Shadow Magic, which can bypass/cut through resistances. Even Grandfather Spider, who has resistance to his own Shadow Magic and is it's literal embodiment, was affected when he was defeated by her. So him being able to resist it is pretty much effectiveless.

I think sealing is a pretty straight-forward wincon. It binded Spider's Conceptual chaos heart in paradox chains composed of 6 different schools of magic, each possessing an infinite amount of magical energy. Spider himself couldn't escape despite being able to cross universes/dimensions and such but still couldn't escape. When he was freed from his binding he was found to be a shell of his former self. At the end of the game, Raven and Spider could bind each other at the center of the husk, making it so nothing they could ever escape, even their movement and all their techniques couldn't make them leave, doing it to make sure they never make the mistake of threatning existence again

The difference however, is that Raven has the ability to bypass resistances, whereas Magnus, as far as I know, doesn't. On top of this, she has omniscience. I doubt she is going to make mistakes

Edit: As for the Law Manipulation: The Concept of Law works differently in Wizard101. The Concept of Law is governed by the law of magic. Subjective laws of physics theoratically don't exist and aren't a bother. Her Law Manipulation isn't what it generally is throughout fiction. It is about manipulating the laws of magic, allowing it shape and refine reality. In essence, she can manipulate the laws of magic that govern reality among other things. The other three divine beings are in fact "lawless" as well, as they don't follow these general conventions either, yet the only reason they were unaffected was because they exist for the sole purpose to counterbalance each other. Using WoG, when the First world broke, this cycle was destroyed, and left Bartleby and Spider in a state where they couldn't stop her, and she could have used her abilities on them if she wanted to
 
Please explain how shadow magic somehow makes Magnus unable to resist its power null when, like I said, an infinitely weaker Magnus resisted power null that was antithetical to his very existence. That seems like an enormous leap in logic.

I don't see how Grandfather Spider's options for escape are the same as Magnus, who has a fundamental understanding of and access to the higher-dimensional and dimensionless portions of the Warp, a place that is connected to his very beng. Magnus has the ability to just shunt himself into a dimensionless void that, even ignoring higher dimensional stuff, grants him access to an infinity of other universes. These don't seem remotely comparable.

"Bypass resistances" is super vague, especially when, as I stated before, a mere physical projection of the form of Magnus was able to destroy and affect beings and machines made specifically to be immune to his powers, which I guess we'd count as "bypassing resistances".
 
I edited my message btw in relation to the law manipulation

Because one of the core factors of Shadow Magic is to bypass resistances to techniques the opponent has, and rebuild that reality to a state that renders most practical abilities opponents have useless. Only reasons a few characters in game couldn't do this was because the shadows consumed them. Characters in game can also have immunity if they really want to, yet Shadow Magic (Ruining the game while allowing this to happen kek) acts as a "lol nope" and can bypass that if used correctly.

I seriously don't see how he could do it if he has binded by forms of magic, which at Raven's level are 2-C (Considering they could bind the Chaos Heart with the Chaos Heart in Spider's word having Unlimited or endless power) and each have an infinite amount of power, 6 of them at that. Unless he's shown that he could do that while being binded, I think assuming that he could is a bit of a stretch. And as I said, Spider and Raven locked each other up to a point even their speed, teleportation, dimension/universe crossing couldn't make them escape.

I explained it a bit above. I'm pretty sure there is a difference to bypassing resistances and destroying something that is immune to your abilities. Malistare the undying was immune to all schools and forms of Magic, and Grandfather Spider and Raven at full power far exceed in power, yet even with that, they can still affect each other. Resistances to tend to upscale to higher characters, and immunity become irrelevant ever since the conception of Shadow Magic could just lolnope whatever you could resist or be immune to. The fact that they all exist to counterbalance and be immune to each other powers, yet Raven found a way to beat Spider, should say something.

Edit: + Her omniscience should give her an idea what she will or will not work
 
Okay, and how are you so sure this will have such a profound effect on Magnus, who already managed to shrug off his verse's version of the thing made to completely shut his kind down, no matter how powerful they are? This is a being of pure energy from a higher plane going up to someone whose very essence is like a gaping hole in said higher plane that renders powers from that plane entirely null and void, often making being from the plane blink out of existence...and then proceeding to be so unfazed that he just chops the psychic null in half. He did this to several whole squads of these people. Simultaneously. I'm not seeing why shadow magic is so good that it nullifies Magnus' powers just because, when the nullification he resisted is already operating on a more localized but higher level.

The wincon for sealing in the first place is that Magnus becomes unable to do anything in retaliation. But he is a metaphysical being connected directly to a dimensionless plane that itself is connected to endless higher-dimensions and infinite parallel universes. This is not even Magnus using some specific power. It is just him leaving back to a place he always has access to, due to being a part of that place, on a level which Grandmother Raven does not seem to have ever restricted. You would have an extremely hard time cutting this form of Magnus off from the Warp since he is just another piece of it, now.

So in what way is that different from bypassing resistances? Some demons of Tzeentch tried to affect a handful of Nemesis Dreadknights with their magic, but couldn't because the Dreadknights' forms were blessed so that they would specifically be unaffected by daemonic reality warping. Magnus goes "lol" and warps them all into horrid messes anyway, with zero effort, simply because they catch his attention. Everything has a relative level yes, but bypassing resistances for one thing does not mean you suddenly bypass the same resistances for every other thing that has them, regardless of reason, or Magnus also completely bypasses all of Grandmother Raven's defenses.
 
I TYPED SHIT BUT WENT BACK ON THE OTHER PAGE REE

Okay? That's cool that he can fight against his powers getting shut down by things being made to shut him down showing he has resistance to powerful Power Nullifcation yes, but that's the equivilant of me saying "Well, Raven beat beings and bypassed resistances to those who were created for the sole reason of counterbalancing all her powers via their sheer will to do so". I don't see how"no matter how powerful they are" makes it so he automatically resists Raven literally cutting through the resistances and I don't think just because his resistance is "at a higher level than Raven's power nullification", he can survive against that resistance being nullified/cut down by.

Spider's true divine body (And Raven's for that matter) is a meta"physical" being connected to a realm (Astral plane) that is void of time and exists as a plane that exists between non-existence and existence (Where, even if her form in the real world is destroyed, her astral being will just hang in this place like "okeh"), completely empty with no subjective laws of physics being present. I never said she would be restrcting him from the warp, she could simply just seal him away there. As before, that's like me saying Magnus has never survived being binded to a place with 6 paradox chains of magic that held back a conceptual force that has, in it's users words, infinite power, therfore Magnus cannot help being sealed away. Unless he has done it before, being sealed in this way and escaping, I don't see how it helps.

You're destroying something that is immune to your powers, you're not cutting through their resistance or immunity. Once again, as mentioned before, even immunaties have been shown to be completely meaningless to these characters, ever since Malistare the Undying. The idea of destroying something that can be immune to your powers being comparable to Resistance Negation can be applied to so many characters that it's not even funny, especially when it's verse it's shown to be literal bypassng of resistances and not straight up destroying. I guess arc 1 Player when he was wall level and didn't have any grasp of magic has durability negation just because some of the bosses he has fought were far above in resistances and he couldn't harm them, yet beat them regardless kek, or even before Shadow Magic he has durability negation just because some bosses were immune to his spells but he could still destroy them.

I'd like to add in the law manipulation again, as it's theoratically different than the general laws of physics applied to other verses shown in the game itself. The Concept of Law works differently in Wizard101. The Concept of Law is governed by the law of magic, which overrules any concept or force in the universe (Presumbaly guarded by Bartleby who Raven could, for the most part defeat and leave him in a situation where he couldn't do anything). Subjective laws of physics theoratically don't exist and aren't a bother. Her Law Manipulation isn't what it generally is considered in fiction. It is about manipulating the laws of magic, allowing it shape and refine reality. In essence, she can manipulate the laws of magic that govern reality among other things. The other two divine beings are in fact "lawless" as well, as they don't follow these general conventions either, yet the only reason they were unaffected was because they exist for the sole purpose to counterbalance each other, yet besides this, Raven could slap one of them silly. And once again, Omniscience is a once again a viable factor for her here. She'll know what she can and cannot do to Magnus

Anyway, going to sleep now. I'll respond tomorrow. I do think you're making good points, but I don't see how most of it can help Magnus in any way
 
Overlord775 said:
IIRC Apha plus level psycher are not affected by Cuelux Assassins, who's power null is 1-B in potency
Click to expand...
I'm not sure this is ever directly stated? Unless I'm forgetting something.

Magnus did shrug off multiple blanks attacking him at once, but that was after he became a daemon. Still Alpha Plus (which is basically just "beyond the normal psyker scale"), but the circumstances are notable.
 
Setsuna tenma said:
aren``t the primarchs supposed to be revised after the horus heresy?
Click to expand...
Entirely different versions of them, yes. This is the metaphysical Magnus who exists after he's become a daemon of Tzeentch, and is being based off stuff he's already clearly demonstrated the capability to do.
 
@Zenkai

What I'm saying is, if power nullification is expected to work on Magnus, why should we assume it works when it is not as potent nor as explicitly harmful to beings of his very nature as stuff he's already resisted? There need to be actual reasons for shadow magic to shut Magnus' powers down, beyond "it just does". I mentioned this before, but an infinitely weaker projection of this Magnus resisted the power null (and many other adverse effects) of multiple blanks simultaneously. This is a huge deal.

Again, I am arguing against sealing because there is contextual reasoning for me to do so. Magnus is an actual part of a dimensionless realm with access to infinite higher dimensions and parallel universes. What stops him from escaping back into this realm? "He's just sealed" won't cover it, because this is something integral to the nature of the form of Magnus being used here. He is a conceptual being of pure warp energy who is directly tied to the Immaterium, and can very much make use of it, if need be. In fact, I don't believe anything actually stops him from using the Warp to his advantage in a vast multitude of other ways, as even if the fight doesn't start there, he should be perfectly capable of pulling Grandmother Raven into it. Again, these are all things he can do, and they are all things operating on a higher level that what his opponent has been shown to negate.

I don't think you understand. He didn't destroy the Dreadknights by punching them or something. He very specifically wrecked things that were supposed to be protected against his reality warping with reality warping. That is "bypassing resistances", as it's been put.

The problem, again, comes from the fact this law manipulation is now attempting to operate on something way out of its league. Magnus is not a 2-C being in a vacuum. He's a 2-C being directly tied to the Warp, a place where the laws of nature and the universe are entirely meaningless and everchanging, that operates on a Tier 1 scale. It is profoundly more difficult to apply such fundamental changes to Magnus' essence due to the fact he is already linked to this realm.

Omniscience only functions in-universe. Knowing everything about the setting you're from does not mean you instantly know everything about another setting when you battle someone from it. Grandmother Raven doesn't know anything about Magnus' true nature or how to properly combat him simply because the two are now fighting in this theoretical scenario.
 
@Setsuna

To be frank, Raven and co. are probably going to be 2-B/2-A by the next arc

@Azzy

You're still talking about it in the context that Magnus has resisted more powerful Power Nullification. That's his resistance, good resistance yes. But I'm talking about his resistance being bypassed. How can he resist something, when his resistance isn't there anymore and has been completely cut down. Once again, it's like me saying "Well, Raven beat beings and bypassed resistances to those who were created for the sole reason of counterbalancing all her powers via their sheer will to do so". Furthermore, to talk about more of what it did, Grandfather Spider went from 2-C to High 4-C from what Raven did to him, that's 2 infinites weaker than what he used to be, stripping him from his Shadow Magic to a point Adult Morganthe could absorb his remaining power (Considering he said he was too scared to fight her in his current state and WoG backing this up by saying Morganthe would have just absorbed whatever power he still had), on top of this, the negation which I talked about earlier. It also seems to me like you're contradicting yourself a little bit, because a following point, you talk about Resistance Negation as if it's literal Resistance Negation, whereas here you're talking about his resistance being the end all of Raven nullifying his powers.

Again, unless it's been directly shown he can pull back to the Warp, especailly when Raven sealed Spider in a way that he couldn't use the means I mentioned before to escape, it's not right to assume he could pull back while being sealed and dropped to High 4-C. Because that is what she did, when she sealed Spider away, she nullified him down to that power so he would have no chance of escaping the seal, likely because she knew he had the power to do so. And from my previous paragraph "Spider's true divine body (And Raven's for that matter) is a meta"physical" being connected to a realm (Astral plane) that is void of time and exists as a plane that exists between non-existence and existence (Where, even if her form in the real world is destroyed, her astral being will just hang in this place like "okeh"), completely empty with no subjective laws of physics being present"

I don't understand how that is Resistance Negation. That's just him being above their resistances. We can use any other fiction and slap Resistance Negation because "oh, they beat a character with resistance to a specific ability with said ability", unless it's directly stated or shown to be literal Resistance Negation, I don't think it's fair to assume it is such. The Player when he was wall level could do exactly what I quoted. Being immune to specific abilities has been such an irrelevant thing in the game right now, that I could slap Resistance Negation to practically any character if I wanted to using your logic.

That's two different playing fields. That's applying Laws to The Warp itself, I'm talking about it in the context that Raven can manipulate the laws of Magic to work against him. I'm prettty sure they are going to be in a mutual setting, otherwise things are being swayed way to much in Magnus' favor. And, using what you said, the battle won't have to start in the warp, Raven's go to move is sealing in-verse. Back to Law Manipulation: she can make it so he himself has to follow completely different Laws of Physics than the Warp applies. Her Law Manipulation doesn't have to work on The Warp itself, It's self evident that she can't, but she can impose specific laws on Magnus himself. What happens is, while he is linked to a higher dimensional realm, he will no longer be able to function under it's protection that it's granting him from Raven's wrath.

Omniscience should regardless still allow Raven to see the past and the future (Future in this case is more relevant). That is one purpose of the Eyes of Time. "They were called the Eyes of Time. One showed the past, and the other showed the future". It should still show her futaristic events that will happen throughout the battle, allowing her to preapre accordingly.
 
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